AnotherLurker

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May 19, 2017
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The bottom line is that straight boys don't get to tell other people what their sexuality is, especially when it's so obvious that the overwhelming majority of fans for something are in their camp.

It's not a mysterious coincidence that games catering to straight players sometimes include futa and traps but games catering to gay players hardly ever do.
Ah, the "you aren't like me, so I get to disregard your arguments" argument? True, you're free to live your life as you see fit. We're two strangers on the internet. I actually mistook your opening line to mean "your opinions and mine are different, therefore you're inferior" for a minute. It's a common enough attitude.
Boys, you're both pretty. No need to fight.
The winner of a debate is not the one who gets the last word, the loudest applause, or a trophy at the end: it's whoever gets closer to the truth. I'm making what I hope are cogent, reasonable responses to what I see as fallacies to kill time. But, to be fair, this is all detracting from the purpose of this thread: to discuss the game. Not sociopolitical structures, sexual orientation, or the value of definitions. Last post.
Lol. Gay-tekeeping.
Unironically made me laugh. Thank you.
Being gay is a social experience centered around a culture of people who prefer their own sex. If anything you got it exactly backwards: it may be homosexual, but it's only gay if it's gay. As far as sexuality goes things like orientations are pure bunk - invented and very recent ideas that fall apart at the slightest suggestion of nuance.

Traps aren't very gay because, fuckn obviously, the aesthetics of m/m trap sex are pure hetero: one partner is masculine and the other is feminine, sometimes to the point of trying to imitate or even contextualize the sex as being a simulacrum of m/f sex. When you pedantically come along and say well hoo hoo it's gay cuz there are two men you're entirely missing the sexuality of what this niche is.

Bears and twinks are gay. Both of those aesthetics are straight out of gay culture, it's a purely masculine affair, and even if the twink is purely a bottom he's not trying to pass himself off as a woman or contextualize his relationship to his partner in terms of familiar straight dynamics. The sexuality of the act follows along its own lines.

It's not really that hard to understand. If someone's getting off to treating a soft boy like a girl and the boy is getting off to feeling (what he thinks to be) like a girl then they're experimenting with straight dynamics, not gay ones. No matter how much scared little straight boys want to push everything that seems gay away from them that's not how this works; gay people define their own niche and traps ain't part of it.
Are you making the argument that something is only gay if the gay community, in a general sense, agrees that it is? I'm not even touching that one.

>traps aren't very gay
Even you acknowledge that they are gay--just not gay enough for your tastes. I've already addressed this when I pointed out that enough people have acknowledged that distinction that many websites have "trap" or "tomgirl" tags.
>when you pedantically come along
Yes, I'm focused on accuracy and details. It's reasonable of you to call me a pedant.
>you're entirely missing the sexuality of what this niche is
I'm not sure that sentence makes sense. Did you mean that I don't share your list of qualifications for the character, Gull, to meet the niche's description? Because I don't.

>It's not really that hard to understand.
It isn't. I just don't agree. You haven't convinced me of anything.
I'm going to paraphrase this next one:
>If someone's getting off to...a boy...then they're...gay ones.
Makes a lot more sense once you take out half the sentence.

I think the point we both seem prepared to circle around is that people get to define their sexuality for themselves. I say "circle around" and not "agree upon" because you seem to take my difference in opinion personally when we clearly agree on a few things.

I've killed enough time. Thanks for playing.
 

balitz Method

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Jan 30, 2018
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Are you making the argument that something is only gay if the gay community, in a general sense, agrees that it is? I'm not even touching that one.
Sorry, but that's the way it is. Insecure straight boys trying to push something away from themselves and declare it haram doesn't make it gay; it's gay if the gay community accepts and practices it.
 

balitz Method

Active Member
Jan 30, 2018
777
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Oh thank god. I can go tell my dad he didn't need to kick me out for fucking a feminine guy when I was in my teens. It simply wasn't gay! Such a relief. Thanks Captain Gay: Definer of All Things Homosexual!
That's a prime example of your dumb straight dad freaking out and declaring something gay just because he doesn't like it. Bigots and insecure doofuses don't get any say in what a community they're not apart of is about - especially when it comes to their own tastes and culture.

Straights are just flat-out irrelevant when it comes to what gay culture is.
 

timepants

God of Time (and Pants)
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May 12, 2017
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That's a prime example of your dumb straight dad freaking out and declaring something gay just because he doesn't like it. Bigots and insecure doofuses don't get any say in what a community they're not apart of is about - especially when it comes to their own tastes and culture.

Straights are just flat-out irrelevant when it comes to what gay culture is.
The point being you don't get to define what other's sexuality is either. If a guy is fem/twink you're saying he's not a "real man". You're gatekeeping what it means to be gay. I'm not into masc guys. I'm into fem guys. This just perpetuates more of this toxic Masc4Masc culture.

EDIT: Also let's not derail the thread further. I don't think either of us is going to budge on the issue.
 

fakitap

Member
Aug 1, 2017
125
421
Being gay is a social experience centered around a culture of people who prefer their own sex. If anything you got it exactly backwards: it may be homosexual, but it's only gay if it's gay. As far as sexuality goes things like orientations are pure bunk - invented and very recent ideas that fall apart at the slightest suggestion of nuance.

Traps aren't very gay because, fuckn obviously, the aesthetics of m/m trap sex are pure hetero: one partner is masculine and the other is feminine, sometimes to the point of trying to imitate or even contextualize the sex as being a simulacrum of m/f sex. When you pedantically come along and say well hoo hoo it's gay cuz there are two men you're entirely missing the sexuality of what this niche is.

Bears and twinks are gay. Both of those aesthetics are straight out of gay culture, it's a purely masculine affair, and even if the twink is purely a bottom he's not trying to pass himself off as a woman or contextualize his relationship to his partner in terms of familiar straight dynamics. The sexuality of the act follows along its own lines.

It's not really that hard to understand. If someone's getting off to treating a soft boy like a girl and the boy is getting off to feeling (what he thinks to be) like a girl then they're experimenting with straight dynamics, not gay ones. No matter how much scared little straight boys want to push everything that seems gay away from them that's not how this works; gay people define their own niche and traps ain't part of it.
This would be a prime example of re-contextualizing somethings theory so much, that you completely lose touch with reality. Main reason being that your argument is so focussed on how wanting to have sex with a femboy doesn't adhere to your narrow view of "gay culture" that you're missing the part of it where a man is attracted to the idea of anally penetraring another man. Femboys or "traps" are generally not shown to actually consider themselves female, so we're not even getting close to the area of transgenderism. They are merely men or boys that happen to have feminine features and enhance them through the way they dress with, at least in most stories that involve them, the purpose of drawing the attention of other men. Likewise men that are into the idea of femboys are generally not of the opinion "Oh, I would have vastly prefered if this was a woman, but sure, I'll take the little bonus." or "Oh, so this isn't a transwoman but he actually considers himself a man? Fuck it, I'm too invested now, wanna fuck that character anyway." but the idea of the character being effeminate yet still clearly male is the whole appeal. I legitimately have no idea how anyone could consider that anything BUT a homosexual fantasy.
Your argument tries to avoid coming to that very same conclusion by proposing 2 "counter-arguments", both of which seem pretty narrowminded.
1. And this one, at least, is just implied in your argument and not straight up articulated: "Feminine men that have sexual encounters with other men are not homosexual, because you don't get to pick your sexuality if you have feminine features."
2. This one you essentially just stated outright: "Anything that does not adhere to my personal view of 'homosexual culture' (a.k.a. bears and twinks) is not acceptable as gay in my eyes."
Trying to defend either position without admitting to quite literally gatekeeping a sexuality, as another poster so wonderfully put it, will be pretty difficult.

You can technically even remove the "culture" aspect of it entirely, as that is one of those common cases of people mixing up sex and gender. Gender is the social concept, but that one is not being discussed here. There is no social checklist for being biologically male and there is no social checklist for being homosexual as both of these categories are solely commenting on the persons sex. Sex = born with the chromosomes and a set of internal and external genitalia meant for procreation that we have dubbed "male" or "female" respectively / Homosexual = prefering sexual intercourse with someone of the same biological sex. There is no culture involved here. This becomes a bit blurrier when taking into account transmen and transwomen, although by definition a man having sex with a transgender woman would also be engaging in homosexual sex. That does not change the fact that this transwoman would absolutely be female when talking about gender, it's just that the terms "sex", "heterosexual", "homosexual" and "bisexual" do, in their etymology, all focus exclusively on someones sex.
So if some men are fantacising about sex with other effemenate men, then they are very clearly going for a homosexual fantasy. They essentially created a scenario that might be 99% straight fantasy at first, but then specifically chose for the target of their attraction to have a penis, testicles, no vagina and to consider themselves male too. The only reason for those additions would be if you want it to be a homosexual fantasy instead.
Rather than trying to push this into a "this guy doesnt even play football, so he can't be straight" or "this guy acts like neither a bear not a twink, so he can't be gay" direction wouldn't it make more sense to simply accept that people of all sexualities can be pretty different in regards to their specific tastes?
You wouldn't tell a straight man that is into tomboyish women "woah, you don't like strippers and cheerleaders, so you're no longer part of the straight club now" and it makes just as little sense to tell gay men that are into effeminate men "that's neither a bear, nor a twink, so you're out of the gay club now".
 
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iksz

Newbie
May 18, 2020
25
6
I know that this will be a stupid question, but how can I use a potion on myself? I found a way to use them on everyone but my character. (I can't get rid of the tits just with the cheat menu for example) Help would be appreciated!
 

balitz Method

Active Member
Jan 30, 2018
777
1,176
The point being you don't get to define what other's sexuality is either. If a guy is fem/twink you're saying he's not a "real man". You're gatekeeping what it means to be gay. I'm not into masc guys. I'm into fem guys. This just perpetuates more of this toxic Masc4Masc culture.
Uh, no, I already said twinks are well ingrained in the culture and that they're very much men. There's a distinction difference between being twinky and being femme and then another difference between the sexuality of the 'trap' idea and the sexuality in the gay community.

I think a lot of you are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying here. Just because something involves two men (or two women) doesn't mean it's by, for, or a fascination of gay people. Gays have their own distinct tastes - distinct from the stuff that insecure straight men try to cut away from -their- sexuality. That's where some of the wires are being crossed: what straight boys think is gay is altogether different from what gay boys think is gay and the flat-out this-part-isn't-up-for-debate truth is that straights' opinions on it are not valid. Gay men are the ones who get to define what their own tastes and culture are.

In fact a lot of homo content is for straights. There's """"lesbian"""" material that's clearly just titilating wank fodder for men, of course. Actual stories produced by lesbians tend to bore straight men because the sexuality is completely different. Traps and femboys and futa are by and large a fascination of straight men, too. They're the ones who talk about it, they're the ones who consume it, and when you look at media aimed at gay men those character types are much much rarer. Over in Japan there's BL (boys' love) for another example. This is a genre centered around boys hooking up with an overwheming minority of actual gay fans - its audience and its authors are nearly all women writing fantasies for other women. Bara on the other hand is a catch-all for works that are penned by gay men and for gay men. Surprise surprise, not many fans of BL also like bara and vice-versa.

Here's what this is driving at: just because it involves homosexuality doesn't mean that it's gay (embraced and practiced and attuned to the distinct sexuality of people who identify themselves as gay), nor is gay the be-all-end-all of homosexual sexuality. Like you assumed that I'm going for a purely Masc4Masc angle, so I'm sure you know what I'm talking about when I say that there are certain tastes and such that can and do get disowned by gays. Transgender sexuality, which can and does get called gay by straight pedants who dry hump the dictionary, is another one that largely seeks to emulate straight sexuality - very few transgirls get gay boyfriends; they end up with openminded straight guys. Traps/femboys largely fall under a straight paradigm, too, in that they by and large hook up with women and curious straight guys, not gay men. That's not to say that 'they're just straight' (as we all know how famously insecure and inflexible straights are) but rather that their sexuality is often disowned by straights but still emulates, though simulacrum &c, some typical straight sexual archetypes and dynamics (rather than gay ones).

The Big Idea here is that straight and gay are not the two paradigms of sexuality; quite a number of things exist either on the outskirts of these frames or fall outside of their umbrellas. The relationship between straight and gay - that is to say the squabbling more often than not - doesn't define the sexuality of those who aren't strictly in either camp any more than their self-serving decrees (straights trying to straightsplain what's gay to police each other, gays defining what gay actually means for themselves) do. They also have their own right to square their sexual tastes for themselves and judgments from people like your dad are completely worthless.

Case in point: 100% of Are Traps Gay? arguments are scared straight boys saying EWWW NO THAT SHIT'S GAY BRO while actual gay men are saying uuuuhhhh no it's not, traps are the """lesbians""" of straight porn - and that's how that goes.
 
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balitz Method

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Jan 30, 2018
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You wouldn't tell a straight man that is into tomboyish women "woah, you don't like strippers and cheerleaders, so you're no longer part of the straight club now" and it makes just as little sense to tell gay men that are into effeminate men "that's neither a bear, nor a twink, so you're out of the gay club now".
We're mostly avoiding conflict in our views except for this: this -literally- happens and it's not a bug, it's a feature.

Hoooooweeeverrrrr I don't see that as something to get too upset about. Clubs police themselves but they're not the only clubs in town, either, they just like to present themselves that way. I'm bi myself so my experience is being told I'm not in the fckn club lmao. Like I can hang out and eat the cassarole that Aaron's lifepartner Dylan made or use the toilet over at Ellie and David's place but try to shuffle out before the party starts, kay?

It took me a while to get to a place where I wasn't upset about it but I came to realize that, while those clubs may have a ton of social traction, it's far more liberating to be able to live as an independent who defines their own sexuality - and there are in fact smaller groups of flexy-sexy people who aren't so rigid because they're not some political force. You can't tell the clubs that they don't have the right to define themselves but their definitions are for them; they don't have to be for you.
 
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c3p0

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Nov 20, 2017
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From what I read from balitz Method all this are only your personal viewpoint. None one has said that you have to like it or not or that is not, for you the things that you want to see for gay sex.
But we said that you can't define what is the definition of gay and what is not. This doesn't work at all. In every terminology a consens is found for the term in question and then it defined. Afterwards the term is defined with this definition until the organisation have a better, newer or simple another definition for this term (see what happens with Pluto).

From the :
gay
adjective
(of people, especially men) sexually attracted to people of the same sex
So, this is what gay the word means. You can say what you want, but their is the defintion.
The other won't work.

And to counter-argument with your own argumentation:
Gays have their own distinct tastes - distinct from the stuff that insecure straight men try to cut away from -their- sexuality. That's where some of the wires are being crossed: what straight boys think is gay is altogether different from what gay boys think is gay and the flat-out this-part-isn't-up-for-debate truth is that straights' opinions on it are not valid. Gay men are the ones who get to define what their own tastes and culture are.
So you say A) Sex between traps and mens aren't are not gay sex and B) straight people don't have a right to define what "gay" sex is. Which I do assume call for C) Gay or lesbian people have no right to define what straight sex is and D) Gay or straight people have no right to define what lesbian sex is.

So, we have traps who have sex with men and per (A) this is not gay sex. As I'm not gay myself I don't have the right to have a word in this definition (B). Yet as a straight person (C) I can define that this is neither straight porn. Therefore it must be lebsian porn, cause if it is neither gay porn or straight porn, then the only other possible option would be lesbian porn.
I strongly think I need to consult my findings with Avaron1974. Perhaps she can share some insight in what I have now discovered must be lesbian porn.o_O
 
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balitz Method

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Jan 30, 2018
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Here's one for the straight boys that you can pen down in your grimoires: your view of gay being irreconcilable with actual gay people's views centers around the concept of faggotry.

When straights say 'gay' what they mean is 'faggy' and this is an insular concept that they use to police each other. This one crosses cultural barriers and epochs, too. THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO the greeks were engaging in behavior that contemporary straight people would call super ultra mega gay. Older Athenian men would mentor handsome younger men (with their dicks) and young Spartan men raised together in fighting units would sleep together and use their love for each other as a bonding force. This wasn't gay or straight, those concepts didn't exist back then, but faggotry certainly did. No one considered these concepts faggy because the men were acting in proper accordance with all social expectations for right and proper Athenian or Spartan men. What they considered shameful and faggy were weak men who'd act as prostitutes or sluts and waggle their hips like some loose woman.

This old paradigm of faggotry is centered around two archetypes: the Macho Man who acts properly and the Sissy Man who doesn't. It's about showing weakness. Sissy behavior is effeminate (not strictly behaviors of women, and in fact they're distinct, but rather anti-masculine behaviors) and this has always been harshly punished and policed by the prevailing social order of the day. In our time it's straightness. Men and women both will bully any man who's acting faggy as a way of convincing him to clean up his act. This is a central fixture in the sexuality of straightness. The gay community has always had to react to straights trying to call them out for faggotry, of course, but that play doesn't work when the person you're using it on is reading from a completely different book.

Gay culture still has the concept of macho and sissy men, of course, but it's a different understanding and the dynamics involved are different. Faggotry there is tongue in cheek, an inside joke, and doesn't define their sexuality the way it does for straights. They have their own sense of what a proper gay man is like and, though they don't call it faggotry, if someone violates it then they will deal with it in much the same way: through course-correction bullying and ostracizing.

Two people from different cultures using the same words are not talking about the same thing.
 
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