Buffalo Fred

Active Member
Aug 5, 2016
886
948
I mean, if we go by historical precedent i'm sure there are many nasty things human being can do and have done to eachother that don't result in permanent and evident damage. Starving, for example. Or just plain sensory deprivation.

But really, if we're being candid that "no harm" clause only exists to make things narratively easier for Carmen. I mean, let's put aside that she's a slip of a woman with not an ounce of muscle in her body, her father's clearly John Wick and her mother's a Siren. Who in their right mind would not understand it's probably not feasible to capture and deliver such a monster of doom without leaving a scratch on them. It's preposterous at best, and the very first sign pointing at our heroes' lack of brains.

Which, i guess, leads me to my main gripe with this game, that I was forced to be dumb. Maybe had it been written in third person, or had the supporting and main characters been a whole less foolish/gullible, perhaps i and others wouldn't have found the experience nearly as frustrating. But like i already said, oh well.
I have to agree. The art drew me to this game but the plot was so infuriating at times. It would have been nice if there had been a story branch or two where the player gets to outwit her little ploys.
As for historical precedence - I mean if a noble was taken for ransom but was caught trying to pull the stuff she does, he or she would very likely be deemed not worth the trouble and meet an 'accident' on the road.
 

Svoben

Newbie
Sep 19, 2017
57
140
Now, don't get me wrong - purely in terms of craftsmanship, this game is probably one of the Top 10 on this site. The art is fantastic, the writing is extremely high-quality, the characters and the world are very well-fleshed out, and it's a wonderfully original premise for a game. And if someone's into femdom narratives, I would have no problem 100% wholeheartedly recommending this game. That being said:

The game's certainly not for everyone but a lot of the criticisms above are covered within the story, or can be explained by looking at historical precedent. ... The game isn't a power fantasy
Maybe it could've been fixed, or at least improved, by changing some of the externals - a longer timeframe, tougher conditions, just generally forcing Carmen to work for her victories here a bit more - but the main reason you're getting this pushback is that it is a power fantasy, just told from the opposite perspective - it's Carmen's power fantasy, and the player is on the receiving end of it. That has nothing to do with the logistics of capturing or ransoming prisoners; and in any case using "Well, [worldbuilding]" as the explanation for why the player is hopelessly outmatched doesn't really help since you're the one that did all the worldbuilding.

The game perfectly recaptured, for me, the feeling of being in a D&D game where and as the PC party gets railroaded along, they whether they're actually the the center of the campaign or if they're just there to be an audience for the DM's favorite character being awesome. Amusingly to me, the game's endings almost perfectly line up with the same outcomes that usually happen when a D&D game goes astray like that - you can either A.) meekly go along with it and hope the DM gets bored with their supercharacter eventually, B.) try your hardest to derail the campaign at any cost up to and including intentionally provoking TPKs (this usually ends the campaign and causes bad feelings all around, don't recommend it!) or C.) the group of PCs, at the earliest possibly opportunity, unanimously just walks away from the adventure in progress, dropping everything, to go look for a different adventure (this is usually the best solution in a D&D game and is the best ending in this game, too).

Now there's nothing wrong with femdom games! That is lots of peoples' kink, and I wish them nothing but many hours of happy fapping and as I said, I cheerfully 100% recommend this game to them. But as presented (especially on this site, where it somehow doesn't even have the "female domination" tag, WTF?) - it dangles the possibility of getting the upper hand on Carmen, only for the player to discover, in the course of the game, that in fact, she is the DM's favorite and you cannot actually do that. I mean, look at the overview in the OP:

Roman, meanwhile, will respond almost entirely to player direction, with a wide array of choices available to make. Will you attempt to seduce Carmen, or will you succumb to her will? Can you keep her from escaping while she turns your team against you, or you against them?
Seducing Carmen in any meaningful way (i.e., getting her to actually fall for you, or even let her guard down a little) is not actually possible. Keeping her from escaping is...sorta kinda possible-ish, but there's absolutely no "successfully complete the job" ending. It's that kind of thing that's inevitably going to lead to complaints from folks who are drawn in by the game's excellent presentation but whose tastes lean in a more dominant direction.
 

Meridian

Active Member
Jan 24, 2018
972
3,396
Can someone upload a persistent save file with everything unlocked in scene gallery please? I am pretty sure I played this game before and saw epilogues but it seems current version doesn't see old save files.
 

grohotor

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2020
1,411
5,578
the only thing i got from this game was that crow is cute, the ending was very unsatisfactory
 

grohotor

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2020
1,411
5,578
All of them? For me the best ending is leaving with the group and live happily ever after with crow.
View attachment 1296435
the whole game feels like a side quest . we capture some lady and then we fucked off and lived happily ever after, the end. feels like 90% of the story is missing. Without Crow earning some easy points this would have been terrible.
 
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NukaCola

Engaged Member
Jul 1, 2017
3,790
4,384
the whole game feels like a side quest . we capture some lady and then we fucked off and lived happily ever after, the end. feels like 90% of the story is missing. Without Crow earning some easy points this would have been terrible.
Well its a very short game but yeah. I can see your point. The whole game feel more like a prologue of a RPG story rather than a full game.
 
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MeltyQuest

Member
May 28, 2018
120
401
The game's certainly not for everyone but a lot of the criticisms above are covered within the story, or can be explained by looking at historical precedent. Roman and his band of mercenaries were instructed by their employer not to harm Carmen, and that severely limits their options in dealing with her. They don't want to beat their prisoner within an inch of her life, they want to get paid, and they have the wrong team to hold someone as dangerous as Carmen for a long period of time so they have to make risky decisions. The game isn't a power fantasy about abusing your prisoner, it's a claustrophobic thriller about what to do when a job goes south. The latter appeals to a lot of people, but if you want the former then this isn't really the game for that (some of the endings excluded) and that's fine.
Loved your game and really great to see a dev who responds fairly to criticism. Awesome you're still updating it. I think I've only bought like 2 games of the 100+ I've played but I'll def grab myself a copy next time this game goes on sale on Steam. Thanks for being active on f95!
 

Dusky Hallows

Member
Game Developer
Aug 6, 2017
207
621
Maybe it could've been fixed, or at least improved, by changing some of the externals - a longer timeframe, tougher conditions, just generally forcing Carmen to work for her victories here a bit more - but the main reason you're getting this pushback is that it is a power fantasy, just told from the opposite perspective - it's Carmen's power fantasy, and the player is on the receiving end of it. That has nothing to do with the logistics of capturing or ransoming prisoners; and in any case using "Well, [worldbuilding]" as the explanation for why the player is hopelessly outmatched doesn't really help since you're the one that did all the worldbuilding.

The game perfectly recaptured, for me, the feeling of being in a D&D game where and as the PC party gets railroaded along, they whether they're actually the the center of the campaign or if they're just there to be an audience for the DM's favorite character being awesome. Amusingly to me, the game's endings almost perfectly line up with the same outcomes that usually happen when a D&D game goes astray like that - you can either A.) meekly go along with it and hope the DM gets bored with their supercharacter eventually, B.) try your hardest to derail the campaign at any cost up to and including intentionally provoking TPKs (this usually ends the campaign and causes bad feelings all around, don't recommend it!) or C.) the group of PCs, at the earliest possibly opportunity, unanimously just walks away from the adventure in progress, dropping everything, to go look for a different adventure (this is usually the best solution in a D&D game and is the best ending in this game, too).

Now there's nothing wrong with femdom games! That is lots of peoples' kink, and I wish them nothing but many hours of happy fapping and as I said, I cheerfully 100% recommend this game to them. But as presented (especially on this site, where it somehow doesn't even have the "female domination" tag, WTF?) - it dangles the possibility of getting the upper hand on Carmen, only for the player to discover, in the course of the game, that in fact, she is the DM's favorite and you cannot actually do that. I mean, look at the overview in the OP:



Seducing Carmen in any meaningful way (i.e., getting her to actually fall for you, or even let her guard down a little) is not actually possible. Keeping her from escaping is...sorta kinda possible-ish, but there's absolutely no "successfully complete the job" ending. It's that kind of thing that's inevitably going to lead to complaints from folks who are drawn in by the game's excellent presentation but whose tastes lean in a more dominant direction.
I think this response gets to the meat of what is actually being discussed here, especially the line about the worldbuilding not being a true justification for the construction of the narrative, because we designed the world. To that I say it really is a matter of taste, not execution. You could ultimately critique any narrative along these lines and what it would come down to is not the coherence of the story, but the expectations the reader/watcher/player has going in. Weyland-Yutani use Ripley and her team as sacrificial lambs against the Xenomorph. Ned Stark is betrayed by those he thought he could trust and loses his head. The worldbuilding justifies why these horrible things happen to our protagonists, but the authors are very much guilty of designing that world. It is a matter of personal preference whether or not these narratives are enjoyable. That Ripley and Roman's employer both left them for dead is not a fault with the story, it's a design decision, and one we made knowing some people would love it and some people wouldn't.

I disagree, however, that the game is a power fantasy for Carmen or that she's a Mary Sue. She's not even really our favourite character. Her arc within the story is one of being punished for her hubris. The game primarily takes place from Roman's perspective, and so long as you see her as a wall you must break through or overcome, it seems an impossible challenge, but ultimately like you said, you don't need to. Carmen is an optional boss within this world, and one you aren't expected to defeat (although you can, albeit temporarily). Roman wouldn't even get anything if you did manage to defeat her - Your employer isn't going to pay you, and your chances of successfully delivering her to someone else are slim at best, considering how slippery she is. But you don't need to beat her.
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I agree that on the surface there does not appear to be a "dominant" option available to the player, but that's where the third act choice comes in. Even if Roman's employer was going to make good on his promise, the fact of the matter is that everything Carmen says is true. A Roman who completes the job gets knighted and then... reviled by the same Lords that sided against him once in the past. His best outcome is to live his life as servant to someone. So what real options does Roman have? Well he can abandon the mission, go his own way, forge his own path, and stop allowing himself to be a pawn in other people's games. Pretty decent. On the other hand he can join Carmen, have a harem, lead a conquest against the Lords who hate him, and ultimately become a Lord himself (if Carmen makes good on her promise). Better than the original offer he had. The caveat here is that he's subservient to Carmen and her Queen still, but he was always going to be subservient to someone in his original plan. He's a commoner. He's not becoming king. The only thing he can hope for is to be gifted power and allowed to use it on others, or to abandon that power structure altogether. The thesis of your encounters with Carmen and Anastasia is that submission, and domination are just different facets of where power is believed to lie, and the easiest way to dominate others is to submit yourself to someone powerful.

Which sort of brings us back to the first point. The world doesn't have to be designed this way, but it is, and so whether or not this is appealing is a matter of taste. I am sure at least one person intensely dislikes Lord of the Rings because Boromir totally should have used the one ring to fuck up Sauron's shit, and its bullshit that he died to an enemy "Gary Stu" Aragorn proceeded to fuck up effortlessly. My point is: anything can sound bad or good depending on the framework through which it is judged, and I think it's important to distinguish matters of taste and preference from genuine flaws within a work. A flaw would be something which prevents a work from achieving its desired effect, not the effect itself being disliked by a reader/watcher/player.

ive found a way so that crow never got guard duty but she still goes to the tavern as if influenced... but they never spoke???
Crow isn't corrupted entirely by Carmen. Even before they interacted, Crow already had a closeted fascination with prostitution and casual sex, one that she'd only ever been able to experience through books and her imagination. Carmen picks up on this and uses it to manipulate her, but Carmen isn't the root cause. That said, Crow always has a shift before sneaking out to the tavern and watching the whores.

If you send Crow and Markus to the tavern, then Markus has a shift when they get back, and then there's a throwaway line about Crow taking over after that (this is easy to miss and is probably the route you found). Alternatively you can have Crow watch before Markus. The only other option is to send Glasha to the tavern instead of Crow, but in that case she either watches immediately, or when Glasha and Markus get back. I don't think there's any other way to play things out.
 

Dusky Hallows

Member
Game Developer
Aug 6, 2017
207
621
Hi Dusky Hallows, I love your game. Do you plan to do another game like this?
Hey, glad you enjoyed it! We're currently working on a new game called Joystick Bliss which is very different to Sanguine Rose but we're both open to making something in the Sanguine Rose universe again at some point, or making something like it. It might be a while though because we're only two people and can't work especially quickly.
 

MKDude

Member
Jun 9, 2017
165
264
Apparently if you skip, the gallery doesn't unlock. Is that a bug? Related, anyone have a complete save?
 

Dusky Hallows

Member
Game Developer
Aug 6, 2017
207
621
Same, what scene is this?
View attachment 1298087
Looks like the Night Shift to me. You want to send the gang to town to get supplies day 1, then when you finish up your first conversation with Carmen, Glasha will ask to go to town. Tell her no, then when she asks again tell her she can go on the night if she takes over now. This puts Roman on the night shift where Carmen attacks him.

To unlock the scene, you have to play the scene twice, once with Carmen and Roman having a positive relationship in their first conversation, and once with a negative relationship.
 
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