VN Ren'Py Abandoned Damaged Goods [Day 2 Part 2] [Yihman1 -Sinappeal]

[Trash_sombra11]

I think he was trying to say something like:
"I have never made anything creative before. So all I can do is shit on others that do."

fuck you got me thats all can do lol game was shit get fucked but let me to you why writing was ass story goes fucking bonkers town bad transitions Wtf was that money scene god awful characters they all suck ass and lets touch on the story thats the best you can come up with a drug that makes people do what to get naked and turns them ? the only good thing about the game was the renders but even then thats not saying much since they all had some weird faces And all you did is translate the game lol shit game

 

[yihman1]

fuck you got me thats all can do lol game was shit get fucked but let me to you why writing was ass story goes fucking bonkers town bad transitions Wtf was that money scene god awful characters they all suck ass and lets touch on the story thats the best you can come up with a drug that makes people do what to get naked and turns them ? the only good thing about the game was the renders but even then thats not saying much since they all had some weird faces And all you did is translate the game lol shit game

Your polite post intrigues me. It was very well thought out and extremely coherent, yet it leaves me wanting more. You are clearly a well renowned literary scholar, and a poet. I am curious. What is your favorite book?

 

[leg28]

fuck you got me thats all can do lol game was shit get fucked but let me to you why writing was ass story goes fucking bonkers town bad transitions Wtf was that money scene god awful characters they all suck ass and lets touch on the story thats the best you can come up with a drug that makes people do what to get naked and turns them ? the only good thing about the game was the renders but even then thats not saying much since they all had some weird faces And all you did is translate the game lol shit game

man, use grammar, interpunctions, anything. just do something with your posts. they are beyond any standard of communication. about content i can't discuss, since i can't understand.

 

[Jaike]

Well, let's try to uplift this piece of ordure:

fuck, you got me, thats all I can do, lol. game was shit, get fucked. but let me say to you why: writing was ass, story goes fucking bonkers, town (?) bad transitions. Wtf was that money scene? god awful characters, they all suck ass. and lets touch on the story, thats the best you can come up with? a drug that makes people do what (?) to get naked and turns them ? the only good thing about the game was the renders but even then thats not saying much since they all had some weird faces. And all you did is translate the game lol. shit game

See how adding some interpunction and just one pronoun and one verb helps a great deal? Now try to give more concrete, practical criticism next time, get basic facts right (they's not the translator) and finally move on from the anal stage.

 

[kartolas]

Although most games with Females as MC are almost all about corruption, which I don't like, I really think this one had potential.

 

[stahalle]

Although most games with Females as MC are almost all about corruption, which I don't like, I really think this one had potential.

yep we need more fem protagonists that are not dumb sluts and where we can decide who we want to bang and who not.

 

[kartolas]

yep we need more fem protagonists that are not dumb sluts and where we can decide who we want to bang and who not.

It's even worst, most games it's the player who have to turn her into a dumb slut

 

[Deleted member 3166292]

sorry to see this go. hopefully you will find a better project to showcase your talent. yihman1

 

[evil_dark_crow]

And how about attending english class at school? damn

 

[Sombramain22]

game was ass from the start

 

[Gamesstar]

fuck you got me thats all can do lol game was shit get fucked but let me to you why writing was ass story goes fucking bonkers town bad transitions Wtf was that money scene god awful characters they all suck ass and lets touch on the story thats the best you can come up with a drug that makes people do what to get naked and turns them ? the only good thing about the game was the renders but even then thats not saying much since they all had some weird faces And all you did is translate the game lol shit game

What the hell . I have to study grammar from the beginning to understand this . I thought my grammar was bad

 

[Zephea]

Some people should wait until they sober up... just saying.

 

[fatiht]

Very sad to hear that this game is abandoned. I really liked it very much. Of course the health and well-being of the developers are much more important than this game. So I hope everything works out.

 

[ItsNotMeToo]

Wow. Well then. I have not played the game yet, but I was certainly provided some entertainment in the form of drama in this thread over the last 5 pages.

As someone who just stumbled upon this thread, without knowing anything more about the two devs involved or the game itself, I'll provide my neutral unbiased opinion:
- It sounded like this was a game that had great potential
- Unfortunately, circumstances delayed it, and further escalations caused delays
- Both parties share some fault. I don't see it being 100-0 in either favor, but it's also not a 50-50 split.
- Based on the latest posts shared by devs, this project is over (unless one dev picks it up solo)

A lot of he said, she said that went on, and we may never know the full truth of the situation, but what I can comment on is that communication (or lack thereof) was a major factor in instigating this situation. I can understand wanting to put a little public pressure on a partner if you haven't been hearing back from with respect to work - professional, this would be similar to CC'ing their manager, but given this is a game that has public (patreon) support this is a similar approach.

However, there are certain things that probably should stay between partners, and there's a line where you can keep things professional or make it personal, and it was crossed fairly quickly by one of the devs. Once crossed, it went heavily into unprofessional attacks. Again, there may or may not be truth to some of the statements, but there seemed to be an awful lot of assumptions made by one about how the other thinks, in other words finger pointing. Combined with a clear smear-job and whole-hearted attempt to smear the other dev's name (Rating the other game unfairly), dragging finances into discussion, bringing in other private conversations, accusations of a ghost-artist behind the seasons), it's a situation where, even if you are more 'right', you just paint yourself as being an asshole and honestly, would you ever want to work with someone who does that to you?

Here it's a writer and an artists that were partnered. They need to have cooperation and partnership to have success. Compare that to sports, with a coach and a player. They need each other to be able to win and reach their goals. If the player goes to the media to start airing dirty laundry, or the coach calls out the player to the media, that relationship is already at a critical point, and unless both parties try to work together to repair it, it will fail, and one or the other will need to leave. Similarly, attacking someone, telling them to essentially get over it, shows a lack of empathy, and then doubling down with demands of apologies while continuing to hammer away at the other person's character, projecting onto them statements in a poor light, well, the end result will be what you claimed you were avoiding.

Unlike some, I'm not going to make assumptions as to the intent behind all the statements. But from what I have read over these last pages, it's clear there is one individual, right or wrong, that if I worked in this industry, I would not want to partner with given the nature of their actions. Again, neither party is blameless, and I don't know all the nuances and specifics of being a dev in making these games, but there is a way to conduct oneself professionally and business-like, and that was definitely abandoned during this drama, moreso by one.

 

[ItsNotMeToo]

I'll just say one final bit:
The fact that someone, upon hearing about another's medical situation that could have had dire consequences, chose to one-up the situation, and weaponize their sibling's battle, speaks to their character more than any of the words that are posted.

 

[yihman1]

Wow. Well then. I have not played the game yet, but I was certainly provided some entertainment in the form of drama in this thread over the last 5 pages.

As someone who just stumbled upon this thread, without knowing anything more about the two devs involved or the game itself, I'll provide my neutral unbiased opinion:
- It sounded like this was a game that had great potential
- Unfortunately, circumstances delayed it, and further escalations caused delays
- Both parties share some fault. I don't see it being 100-0 in either favor, but it's also not a 50-50 split.
- Based on the latest posts shared by devs, this project is over (unless one dev picks it up solo)

A lot of he said, she said that went on, and we may never know the full truth of the situation, but what I can comment on is that communication (or lack thereof) was a major factor in instigating this situation. I can understand wanting to put a little public pressure on a partner if you haven't been hearing back from with respect to work - professional, this would be similar to CC'ing their manager, but given this is a game that has public (patreon) support this is a similar approach.

However, there are certain things that probably should stay between partners, and there's a line where you can keep things professional or make it personal, and it was crossed fairly quickly by one of the devs. Once crossed, it went heavily into unprofessional attacks. Again, there may or may not be truth to some of the statements, but there seemed to be an awful lot of assumptions made by one about how the other thinks, in other words finger pointing. Combined with a clear smear-job and whole-hearted attempt to smear the other dev's name (Rating the other game unfairly), dragging finances into discussion, bringing in other private conversations, accusations of a ghost-artist behind the seasons), it's a situation where, even if you are more 'right', you just paint yourself as being an asshole and honestly, would you ever want to work with someone who does that to you?

Here it's a writer and an artists that were partnered. They need to have cooperation and partnership to have success. Compare that to sports, with a coach and a player. They need each other to be able to win and reach their goals. If the player goes to the media to start airing dirty laundry, or the coach calls out the player to the media, that relationship is already at a critical point, and unless both parties try to work together to repair it, it will fail, and one or the other will need to leave. Similarly, attacking someone, telling them to essentially get over it, shows a lack of empathy, and then doubling down with demands of apologies while continuing to hammer away at the other person's character, projecting onto them statements in a poor light, well, the end result will be what you claimed you were avoiding.

Unlike some, I'm not going to make assumptions as to the intent behind all the statements. But from what I have read over these last pages, it's clear there is one individual, right or wrong, that if I worked in this industry, I would not want to partner with given the nature of their actions. Again, neither party is blameless, and I don't know all the nuances and specifics of being a dev in making these games, but there is a way to conduct oneself professionally and business-like, and that was definitely abandoned during this drama, moreso by one.

That's a lot to read. Yea, Damaged Goods is dead. If Sin wants to take full ownership of the game, and just buy my share out and make it completely his game (or hire a new writer assuming he would actually pay that one) he can do that. I'd make it very affordable for him, wouldn't charge him an arm and a leg. I am a reasonable person.

I spent around a year working on DG with Sin and made $0 in that entire time. Sin shared no money with me at all. Not a penny... tons of writing, and tons of code. All unpaid. Last Christmas eve when all my family was gathered around drinking eggnog, and sharing presents, and playing boardgames there I was worked 14+ hours that day to make sure DG would release on December 25th as scheduled as bug-free as possible. Do you know why I did that? Because I put my heart into working on this project.

Since DG has gone abandoned I have moved on to another project working with Moon (Who is awesome by the way. Great dude... one of the most honest and trustworthy guys I ever met, and a great team player.) Guess what... I got paid the first month after the dude paused the Patreon the previous month because his previous writer ghosted him, and he saw my discontent with Sin in this thread.

So, I have no regrets. I found a far superior teammate. An honest man with integrity, and one who is actually willing to work on the project we are collaborating on! One who responds to my messages as soon as he sees them! One who doesn't keep massive secrets from me and lie about shit that I'm gonna find out anyway! One that actually treats me with some respect for a change!

After seeing how much better it is working with a person like Moon, I would not wish to work with someone like Sin ever again. Much better environment, much less stressful.

Anyhow, if Sin is actually still reading this thread, feel free to make me an offer if you want to own this game and make it without me. I'm done working with Sin after he has shown his lack of work ethic and generally dishonest behavior.

You can't make me an excuse anymore Sin.

 

[ItsNotMeToo]

I spent around a year working on DG with Sin and made $0 in that entire time. Sin shared no money with me at all. Not a penny... tons of writing, and tons of code. All unpaid. Last Christmas eve when all my family was gathered around drinking eggnog, and sharing presents, and playing boardgames there I was worked 14+ hours that day to make sure DG would release on December 25th as scheduled as bug-free as possible. Do you know why I did that? Because I put my heart into working on this project.

I understand your perspective on this. But I'd like to get some clarification, could you correct me if I'm wrong on the following:

>You and Sin embarked upon a new project
>You did not have to financially invest into this effort
>Sin handled all the costs associated (per Sin's post), both start-up costs as well as operating costs
>You invested time, as Sin did as well
>The project struggled the first several months of launch
>It has since been postponed / cancelled / stopped on patreon, no future income

With this being a new project, we'll treat it as a new business startup. When you open a new business, you need to spend money - depending on what business it is, you may have to invest money into: land / infrastructure / rent, machinary for production, setting up the office / location, hiring costs, etc. There is no business that exists that had a start-up cost of $0. Someone, somewhere had to front the bill.

Based on Sin's post, he floated the up-front costs himself. You invested $0 into the the up-front costs. Both of you invested time into the project. At the point where things were put on hold / abandoned, did the profits from the project cover the up-front costs?

Unless there is a contract that explicitly stated all profits from patreon / other sources of income would be equally split before operating costs (aka start up costs), it stands to reason that profits would first go towards those initial startup costs, then operating costs, before the remaining would be profit to be shared amongst partners. Now, I acknowledge that I do not know the business model in this industry, so I could be completely off-base, and I'm willing re-evaluate my perspective if this turns out to not be the case.

If there wasn't any discussion about how profits would be handled / split, that would seem like an oversight by all involved.

 

[yihman1]

I understand your perspective on this. But I'd like to get some clarification, could you correct me if I'm wrong on the following:

>You and Sin embarked upon a new project
>You did not have to financially invest into this effort
>Sin handled all the costs associated (per Sin's post), both start-up costs as well as operating costs
>You invested time, as Sin did as well
>The project struggled the first several months of launch
>It has since been postponed / cancelled / stopped on patreon, no future income

With this being a new project, we'll treat it as a new business startup. When you open a new business, you need to spend money - depending on what business it is, you may have to invest money into: land / infrastructure / rent, machinary for production, setting up the office / location, hiring costs, etc. There is no business that exists that had a start-up cost of $0. Someone, somewhere had to front the bill.

Based on Sin's post, he floated the up-front costs himself. You invested $0 into the the up-front costs. Both of you invested time into the project. At the point where things were put on hold / abandoned, did the profits from the project cover the up-front costs?

Unless there is a contract that explicitly stated all profits from patreon / other sources of income would be equally split before operating costs (aka start up costs), it stands to reason that profits would first go towards those initial startup costs, then operating costs, before the remaining would be profit to be shared amongst partners. Now, I acknowledge that I do not know the business model in this industry, so I could be completely off-base, and I'm willing re-evaluate my perspective if this turns out to not be the case.

If there wasn't any discussion about how profits would be handled / split, that would seem like an oversight by all involved.

We came to financial agreements he never bothered to fulfill, nor did I bother to pursue at the time as I knew he was discouraged by how much was being spent. So I gave him a bit of grace on that as an incentive to continue working on the project.

The agreement was we would split the money that came in on Patreon, and all other payment methods evenly 50/50. Of course, sin has conveniently deleted these messages and there is no hard evidence of this agreement, but it was typed out agreement that we agreed to long ago.

He made unnecessary expenses that he never shared with me either. For instance, the guy he paid to pose out most of his renders for him. So, he was outsourcing a lot of the labor he promised to do, and wasn't doing the work himself. (If that guy even got paid. I have never spoken to that person.)

A lot of the problems that were caused were by him making the second game SOLO on our SHARED projects Patreon account and social media. Then completely neglecting our collaboration thereafter.

It would have made far more sense for him to put his other game on a different patreon account. The Instagram could have been shared, or the twitter, but the payment processor. A very unprofessional move.

In hindsight, it's clear to me, that he wanted to abandon DG for a long time. Had he wanted the game to continue, he had have not ignored my messages. He would not have shared the patreon with his solo project. He would have given it updates, and not deleted it's Instagram posts, and tweets.

It's impossible to work in collaboration with a person like this.

Sin was expecting me to sit around with my thumb up my ass for months, or years, or forever... Whenever is good for him with no signs of it ever being good for him... just waiting and hoping... and waiting... very patiently in silence ready for action hoping that one day when his majesty summons me I will jump up, and resume work on the project I am not being paid to make.

I'm sorry sin, that wasn't working for me.

 

[peterppp]

We came to financial agreements he never bothered to fulfill, nor did I bother to pursue at the time as I knew he was discouraged by how much was being spent. So I gave him a bit of grace on that as an incentive to continue working on the project.

The agreement was we would split the money that came in on Patreon, and all other payment methods evenly 50/50. Of course, sin has conveniently deleted these messages and there is no hard evidence of this agreement, but it was typed out agreement that we agreed to long ago.

He made unnecessary expenses that he never shared with me either. For instance, the guy he paid to pose out most of his renders for him. So, he was outsourcing a lot of the labor he promised to do, and wasn't doing the work himself. (If that guy even got paid. I have never spoken to that person.)

A lot of the problems that were caused were by him making the second game SOLO on our SHARED projects Patreon account and social media. Then completely neglecting our collaboration thereafter.

It would have made far more sense for him to put his other game on a different patreon account. The Instagram could have been shared, or the twitter, but the payment processor. A very unprofessional move.

In hindsight, it's clear to me, that he wanted to abandon DG for a long time. Had he wanted the game to continue, he had have not ignored my messages. He would not have shared the patreon with his solo project. He would have given it updates, and not deleted it's Instagram posts, and tweets.

It's impossible to work in collaboration with a person like this.

Sin was expecting me to sit around with my thumb up my ass for months, or years, or forever... Whenever is good for him with no signs of it ever being good for him... just waiting and hoping... and waiting... very patiently in silence ready for action hoping that one day when his majesty summons me I will jump up, and resume work on the project I am not being paid to make.

I'm sorry sin, that wasn't working for me.

Since you won't say otherwise, I take it that Sin took all the costs. So he is the one racking up the debt you're talking about here...

So far both of us have put in many hundreds of hours of work for free on top of buying expensive assets and electricity cost to render.

We won't be in the "Break Even Zone" at our current work rate until we are making about $1,150 per month, and that is with us working for free no pay at all and not doing anything about the debt that is racking up in the mean time. That is "Equilibrium" where the rate of incoming money finally matches the rate of money spent.

He is buying the assets, he is paying for the electricity to render, he is racking up the debt? Then it's only fair that he gets his money back before you share any profit. Otherwise you are not a co-developer, you're hired by Sin. From your talk in this game thread, you think you are one of two game devs, maybe even the main game dev, not a hired writer. Why should he pay for everything?

 

[yihman1]

Since you won't say otherwise, I take it that Sin took all the costs. So he is the one racking up the debt you're talking about here...

He is buying the assets, he is paying for the electricity to render, he is racking up the debt? Then it's only fair that he gets his money back before you share any profit. Otherwise you are not a co-developer, you're hired by Sin. From your talk in this game thread, you think you are one of two game devs, maybe even the main game dev, not a hired writer. Why should he pay for everything?

No, of course, I wasn't cutting Sin a check for the same reason why I wasn't cutting a check to that Nigerian Prince that emailed me saying they got a million dollars for me if I can send them a few hundred bucks to get it transferred to my account.

Do you honestly think a guy like Sin was buying all of the assets? f95zone offers a very large number of pirated assets for free to the developers whose games are pirated. He was well aware of this cost-cutting measure. Players are not the only ones pirating things on f95zone. Developers pirate too.

When it came to costs he wasn't the kind of guy that would show receipts and expenditures. His claims were to be spending $10,000+ which just doesn't add up at all unless that money was largely spent on him hiring someone else to do the work he said he was going to do. Which he admitted to doing.

He was making costs he wasn't properly accounting for and spending very recklessly in having someone else to make the renders that he said he was going to do in the first place.

That was unfair to me the co-founder of our joint business venture for him to be hiring people I was never properly introduced to, nor had interactions with that were doing the job that he said he was going to do.

He was hiring people to do his half of the work without me having a say in that or even meeting the person. He was being "The Middle Man". A lot of the time, he just had them pose everything out for him so he could push the "Render" button on his rig that he also counted as his "expenses". The thousands of dollars spent on a nice render rig was considered in his expenses as well which is something he mainly benefited from, and benefited from outside of DG development with. Like if got a Ferrari as his company car, and I didn't get a company car.

A lot of the debt he racked up in making DG was just frivolous spending to avoid spending time working on the project outsourcing what was meant to be his labor and overspending on hardware. I have seen sixteen-year-old girls with Daddy's credit cards spend more responsibly.

The bills were whatever random number Sin decided they were without asking me what should be spent.

If I was the co-owner of the game why is he off hiring people to do his half of the work I never got to meet?

If I was the co-owner of the game why was I never shown any receipts on what was being spent?

If I was the co-owner of the game why were only hardware upgrades for Sin included in the budget and none for me?

If I was the co-owner of the game then why was everything in his name?

I never added to our expenses at all as Sin was the only one racking up bills. I was saving us money and time. I could have been like, "Hey put a proofreader on that bill for us." No... I did that myself. I could have been like "Hey hire a coder to code this all together." No... No I learned to code instead. I never busted out my electricity bill and said "I spent this much money on electricity this month." I never bought a new computer and put that as one of our expenses. I did everything I could to keep expenses as low as possible as Sin did everything possible to make expenses as high as possible.