VN Ren'Py Abandoned Damaged Goods [Day 2 Part 2] [Yihman1 -Sinappeal]

[peterppp]

No, of course, I wasn't cutting Sin a check for the same reason why I wasn't cutting a check to that Nigerian Prince that emailed me saying they got a million dollars for me if I can send them a few hundred bucks to get it transferred to my account.

Do you honestly think a guy like Sin was buying all of the assets? f95zone offers a very large number of pirated assets for free to the developers whose games are pirated. He was well aware of this cost-cutting measure. Players are not the only ones pirating things on f95zone. Developers pirate too.

When it came to costs he wasn't the kind of guy that would show receipts and expenditures. His claims were to be spending $10,000+ which just doesn't add up at all unless that money was largely spent on him hiring someone else to do the work he said he was going to do. Which he admitted to doing.

He was making costs he wasn't properly accounting for and spending very recklessly in having someone else to make the renders that he said he was going to do in the first place.

That was unfair to me the co-founder of our joint business venture for him to be hiring people I was never properly introduced to, nor had interactions with that were doing the job that he said he was going to do.

He was hiring people to do his half of the work without me having a say in that or even meeting the person. He was being "The Middle Man". A lot of the time, he just had them pose everything out for him so he could push the "Render" button on his rig that he also counted as his "expenses". The thousands of dollars spent on a nice render rig was considered in his expenses as well which is something he mainly benefited from, and benefited from outside of DG development with. Like if got a Ferrari as his company car, and I didn't get a company car.

A lot of the debt he racked up in making DG was just frivolous spending to avoid spending time working on the project outsourcing what was meant to be his labor and overspending on hardware. I have seen sixteen-year-old girls with Daddy's credit cards spend more responsibly.

The bills were whatever random number Sin decided they were without asking me what should be spent.

If I was the co-owner of the game why is he off hiring people to do his half of the work I never got to meet?

If I was the co-owner of the game why was I never shown any receipts on what was being spent?

If I was the co-owner of the game why were only hardware upgrades for Sin included in the budget and none for me?

If I was the co-owner of the game then why was everything in his name?

I never added to our expenses at all as Sin was the only one racking up bills. I was saving us money and time. I could have been like, "Hey put a proofreader on that bill for us." No... I did that myself. I could have been like "Hey hire a coder to code this all together." No... No I learned to code instead. I never busted out my electricity bill and said "I spent this much money on electricity this month." I never bought a new computer and put that as one of our expenses. I did everything I could to keep expenses as low as possible as Sin did everything possible to make expenses as high as possible.

I was quoting you saying assets were bought for the game. You've said more than once how much has been spent on making the game, including buying assets. Now you claim that Sin didn't buy the assets, asking if someone like Sin would do that. How would anyone of us know that? We only have your version of events and you said assets were bought. Maybe he didn't buy them, but you said he did. Did you lie then or did he fool you? How did you find out the details of his spending because you suddenly have so much knowledge of what Sin spent money on. He told you all this? You expect anyone here to know what's true in this shitshow? All we can judge is what you've said, and your story has holes in it.

 

[yihman1]

I was quoting you saying assets were bought for the game. You've said more than once how much has been spent on making the game, including buying assets. Now you claim that Sin didn't buy the assets, asking if someone like Sin would do that. How would anyone of us know that? We only have your version of events and you said assets were bought. Maybe he didn't buy them, but you said he did. Did you lie then or did he fool you? How did you find out the details of his spending because you suddenly have so much knowledge of what Sin spent money on. He told you all this? You expect anyone here to know what's true in this shitshow? All we can judge is what you've said, and your story has holes in it.

These things are not mutually exclusive. If you go to the store and buy a loaf of bread, but also slip a stick of butter into your pocket shoplifting it then you are both shoplifting and a customer.

 

[peterppp]

These things are not mutually exclusive. If you go to the store and buy a loaf of bread, but also slip a stick of butter into your pocket shoplifting it then you are both shoplifting and a customer.

So you think he did spend money on assets. Then stop using it as an excuse to get any money before he gets back his expenses for it. You didn't spend anything. And you didn't make much money from the game. So why should you get any money before he gets back what he paid for assets and electricity for rendering, not counting all that other stuff you claim he frivolously spent it on. You expect him to pay for the game and you reap benefits without paying. Uh huh.

 

[yihman1]

So you think he did spend money on assets. Then stop using it as an excuse to get any money before he gets back his expenses for it. You didn't spend anything. And you didn't make much money from the game. So why should you get any money before he gets back what he paid for assets and electricity for rendering, not counting all that other stuff you claim he frivolously spent it on. You expect him to pay for the game and you reap benefits without paying. Uh huh.

It's unclear what % of the assets he used were bought, and what % were pirated. I would guess the higher % is pirated, and by a significant margin.

If you started a company, and you leased a building and bought some machines for employees to make widgets then would you expect for all of your employees to work for free until the building, and machines are paid off? Would that be a good business practice or would you have paid the employees?

He never shared accurate accounting information with me on his expenditures, and "hired" people to do the work he promised he would do himself. That's not being a good business partner at all in a joint venture. Very sketchy behavior.

Time and Money are both limited resources and important for productivity, and one can be exchanged for the other. Sin was unwilling to put the needed time in and thus raised the expense bill by outsourcing the job that he promised to do.

Any money he spends that saves time for himself should not be considered a joint business expense. That would be scamming me if he did so. That should be a private expense if he did not want to give the time that he promised but instead hired someone else to do his job.

It would be the same is if I hired a writer to do my work, and put it on Sins' credit card as one of our joint expenses.

How would you feel about a guy if you worked with him for a year and made $0 and he made all the money, and one of the reasons you were not paid is he hired someone else to do the job he promised you he would do?

 

[peterppp]

It's unclear what % of the assets he used were bought, and what % were pirated. I would guess the higher % is pirated, and by a significant margin.

If you started a company, and you leased a building and bought some machines for employees to make widgets then would you expect for all of your employees to work for free until the building, and machines are paid off? Would that be a good business practice or would you have paid the employees?

He never shared accurate accounting information with me on his expenditures, and "hired" people to do the work he promised he would do himself. That's not being a good business partner at all in a joint venture. Very sketchy behavior.

Time and Money are both limited resources and important for productivity, and one can be exchanged for the other. Sin was unwilling to put the needed time in and thus raised the expense bill by outsourcing the job that he promised to do.

Any money he spends that saves time for himself should not be considered a joint business expense. That would be scamming me if he did so. That should be a private expense if he did not want to give the time that he promised but instead hired someone else to do his job.

It would be the same is if I hired a writer to do my work, and put it on Sins' credit card as one of our joint expenses.

How would you feel about a guy if you worked with him for a year and made $0 and he made all the money, and one of the reasons you were not paid is he hired someone else to do the job he promised you he would do?

Jesus. You don't know what he did or didn't do, so you're just pulling stuff out of your ass like you've done the whole time. Just give up and admit you aren't morally entitled to any money until Sin has at least gotten back what he paid for the assets. And you don't know how much that is. But the little money you made from the game wouldn't have paid for much and then there's also the cost of electricity for rendering. Chances are Sin didn't have any support money left after those expenses, possibly going into negative, while you haven't lost any money since you didn't pay anything.

But you want him to pay you anyway. And bring up a ridiculous comparison about paying employees. But you weren't his employee. You were his partner, but you think he should pay you money when he hasn't made any money, only losses, and that's only after counting bought assets and electricity. Fuck man. You can't be that stupid that you don't see the problem with that.

Here's other things you've said.

We both sacrifice noticeable luxuries and amenities in real life to be game developers, and have been doing so for almost a year now. About 10% of our monthly development costs are paid by supporters for which we are grateful. (Not account for 8.5 months of free work bringing us into the $9,000 spent on the game so far range)

Damaged Goods costs more to produce than it generates in income by about a scale of magnitude. This is without considering labor costs and only considering costs of electricity, assets, and necessary hardware to create renders that is with sin and I working for free as slave labor.

You're so full of crap. Back then you two spent aaall this money on the game. Now we have learned it was all Sin and he didn't spend it on that according to you. But you don't actually know, you just say stuff because you think you should have money even though you never paid for anything but Sin did.

You know you're in bad shape when you make the audience (me) take the opponent's side after only hearing your version of the story. Haha. I expect you'll come up with another bad attempt at saving yourself instead of admitting defeat. It's over. You lost. My work is done.

 

[yihman1]

Jesus. You don't know what he did or didn't do, so you're just pulling stuff out of your ass like you've done the whole time. Just give up and admit you aren't morally entitled to any money until Sin has at least gotten back what he paid for the assets. And you don't know how much that is. But the little money you made from the game wouldn't have paid for much and then there's also the cost of electricity for rendering. Chances are Sin didn't have any support money left after those expenses, possibly going into negative, while you haven't lost any money since you didn't pay anything.

But you want him to pay you anyway. And bring up a ridiculous comparison about paying employees. But you weren't his employee. You were his partner, but you think he should pay you money when he hasn't made any money, only losses, and that's only after counting bought assets and electricity. Fuck man. You can't be that stupid that you don't see the problem with that.

Here's other things you've said.

Exactly my point I do not know what he did or did not do as he was terrible at communication, building trust, and keeping me in the loop.

I never asked Sin to pay me prior to getting back the money he spent. However, when the money he spent included outsourcing the job that he promised to spend the time doing himself and instead of increasing the money he spent that comes out of my pocket. According to him he spent thousands of dollars paying another artist (one who he never bothered to introduce me to) to do the work that he promised to do himself and counted that among the expenses of the games.

Additionally, the money that we earned together got lumped into his solo project's account. It would be difficult for me to come up with a better example of a conflict of interest. Who's to say if the supporters were paying their support for one game, the other game, or both games? Additionally, he surely counted the expenses together as well raising the bill.

Sin completely stole my outline and idea for My Sweet Temptation and rebranded it as Wings of Silicon. That was supposed to be a second joint project. We had a huge fight about it. Anyhow, I offered him the right to have that game 100% all his without my hand in it under the condition that he would stop making stupid suggestions like "Lets add some demons!" to Damaged Goods, and grant me more creative control. However, Sin halted work entirely on Damaged Goods after this point sort of like selling me a lemon there that he knew damn well was a lemon at the time.

You're so full of crap. Back then you two spent aaall this money on the game. Now we have learned it was all Sin and he didn't spend it on that according to you. But you don't actually know, you just say stuff because you think you should have money even though you never paid for anything but Sin did.

You know you're in bad shape when you make the audience (me) take the opponent's side after only hearing your version of the story. Haha. I expect you'll come up with another bad attempt at saving yourself instead of admitting defeat. It's over. You lost. My work is done.

I doubt Sin would have paid me even if we reached $1000+ per month.

I only speak the truth. The thing about that is that there are public and private conversations. At that point in time Sin was whining in my ear every god damn day about money. He is not poor either. Far from it in fact he is a doctor making a large amount of money. He don't know what it's like to be poor. He liked to brag about nice vacations and spending all these thousands on electronics, and all sorts of money he spent. He was whining about not being to able to afford to go on a fourth vacation that year because he spent money on the game instead. He was all about money complaining all the time. Money money money bitching and moaning, and Sin is better off than me RL by a good margin. I'm not making doctor money.

Back then I was on the inside of the tent pissing out, instead of the outside pissing in so to say. The game never hit financial goals. See, we were not doing well on financial support and sin whined about it all the time and I was afraid he was going to make an idiot of himself in the forums so I went out and worded it in a nice way as I was his writer after all.

He may have been the one picking up the bill for DG, and fair enough he was. The thing about that though was his expenses I didn't really believe... I have talked to other three other artists who make renders, and the general consensus among them is that the bill he racked up seems EXTREMELY high for the number of renders produced. Like off by at least a scale of magnitude high.

Sin is more "Banker" than "Artist" as the majority of the time he doesn't do his own renders other than clicking the render button.

When doing business with Sin one always loses as he is a ruthless cunning conniving scam artist. The man belongs somewhere on the

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.

Any money I'd take from Sin would be for full ownership of Damaged Goods. To "Buy me out" so to say. Not for some debt owed. I am the author of the story, and have created some great characters, and an interesting plot. If he ever wants to come back to it and make it all him, and then hire someone else to write it and render it for him he is free to do so as he tends to get others to do that for him he is free to do so.

If not it can stay abandoned. If he comes back to work on DG without paying me off to be out of the project there will be a lawsuit. I'm done cutting him slack. If he wants to buy it then it's for sale. I'd even toss in the outline I have not shown him that goes to the completion of the game if he wanted that for a reference.

And no, I am not defeated. I have the moral high ground here.

 

[Deleted member 1157790]

So you think he did spend money on assets. Then stop using it as an excuse to get any money before he gets back his expenses for it. You didn't spend anything. And you didn't make much money from the game. So why should you get any money before he gets back what he paid for assets and electricity for rendering, not counting all that other stuff you claim he frivolously spent it on. You expect him to pay for the game and you reap benefits without paying. Uh huh.

Imagine you open a hotdog stand with your friend, and you are going to split the workload and net profits 50/50. Your friend then hires an employee to work his shifts and buys a car to get to work faster, insisting that both are business costs, and thus, reducing the net profits to zero. Surely you don't think this is a fair agreement?

It is also worth noting that this is a frequently used tactic in business, to constitute a business enterprise as 'failing' to avoid agreements based on net profits. For example, the author of 'Forrest Gump' to this day has received almost nothing from a $677 million box office ($55 million studio budget) because their deal was 3% of the net profits and the studio 'claimed' they didn't make a profit.

This is not to say you should side with yihman1 or Sin - it's all hearsay, so we can't really know what happened. But, if Sin was paying someone else to do his work and DG profits went towards a new computer, yihman1's position is morally justifiable.

Regarding the computer specifically, from a purely legal standpoint, if it was paid for by profits from DG, it belongs to yihman1 as much as it belongs to Sin. Even further, if a computer is used for anything other than DG, it is not exclusively a 'business' expense from a legal/taxation standpoint. That is, if this computer is used 10% for DG and 90% for everything else, only 10% can be constituted as a business expense. Much like if your employer pays your fuel expenses, you cannot claim mileage that was incurred when not on the job.

 

[peterppp]

Imagine you open a hotdog stand with your friend, and you are going to split the workload and net profits 50/50. Your friend then hires an employee to work his shifts and buys a car to get to work faster, insisting that both are business costs, and thus, reducing the net profits to zero. Surely you don't think this is a fair agreement?

It is also worth noting that this is a frequently used tactic in business, to constitute a business enterprise as 'failing' to avoid agreements based on net profits. For example, the author of 'Forrest Gump' to this day has received almost nothing from a $677 million box office ($55 million studio budget) because their deal was 3% of the net profits and the studio 'claimed' they didn't make a profit.

This is not to say you should side with yihman1 or Sin - it's all hearsay, so we can't really know what happened. But, if Sin was paying someone else to do his work and DG profits went towards a new computer, yihman1's position is morally justifiable.

Regarding the computer specifically, from a purely legal standpoint, if it was paid for by profits from DG, it belongs to yihman1 as much as it belongs to Sin. Even further, if a computer is used for anything other than DG, it is not exclusively a 'business' expense from a legal/taxation standpoint. That is, if this computer is used 10% for DG and 90% for everything else, only 10% can be constituted as a business expense. Much like if your employer pays your fuel expenses, you cannot claim mileage that was incurred when not on the job.

Way to quote me and then disregard what I wrote. I made my argument on the cost of the assets and electricity that went directly to the game production. Your hotdog stand example ignores this. I ask you, if the friend pays for some or all of the hotdogs, buns, condiments and sodas out of his own pocket and then the proceeds from the stand doesn't even cover what he paid before you close it down, should the friend give your part of the proceeds when you paid for nothing? Of course not. It's a ridiculous claim.

Yes, it's all hearsay, and I heard yihman's say he believed that Sin did pay for some of the assets, but he didn't know how much. So.... We only have yihman's belief without any proof to back it up that Sin didn't pay for everything, but even yihman belives he paid for some. That, plus the extra cost for the electricity that we know must have come from rendering, and considering how little money they made from the game, there wouldn't be much if anything to share after these costs.

So.... with the added electricity cost and using yihman's own words where he believes Sin paid for some of the assets, unless he is lying again to explain why he lied and contradicted himself in his posts, plus the fact that yihman never bothered to contribute any money to pay for things in the production of the game, he is not justified to get any money from Sin. You're defending a guy who claimed that Sin racked up debt and paid for expensive assets for the game, although yihman made it sound like he himself was part of it at the time. Only now did we learn that yihman never paid a cent and then suddenly Sin did not pay all this money toward the game. So it was just all bullshit from yihman? This is the guy you're defending. Moral highground, my ass.

 

[Deleted member 1157790]

Way to quote me and then disregard what I wrote. I made my argument on the cost of the assets and electricity that went directly to the game production. Your hotdog stand example ignores this. I ask you, if the friend pays for some or all of the hotdogs, buns, condiments and sodas out of his own pocket and then the proceeds from the stand doesn't even cover what he paid before you close it down, should the friend give your part of the proceeds when you paid for nothing? Of course not. It's a ridiculous claim.

Yes, it's all hearsay, and I heard yihman's say he believed that Sin did pay for some of the assets, but he didn't know how much. So.... We only have yihman's belief without any proof to back it up that Sin didn't pay for everything, but even yihman belives he paid for some. That, plus the extra cost for the electricity that we know must have come from rendering, and considering how little money they made from the game, there wouldn't be much if anything to share after these costs.

So.... with the added electricity cost and using yihman's own words where he believes Sin paid for some of the assets, unless he is lying again to explain why he lied and contradicted himself in his posts, plus the fact that yihman never bothered to contribute any money to pay for things in the production of the game, he is not justified to get any money from Sin. You're defending a guy who claimed that Sin racked up debt and paid for expensive assets for the game, although yihman made it sound like he himself was part of it at the time. Only now did we learn that yihman never paid a cent and then suddenly Sin did not pay all this money toward the game. So it was just all bullshit from yihman? This is the guy you're defending. Moral highground, my ass.

To be clear, I don't know either of the devs and I have no vested interest in this issue. Just out of curiousity, do you? Because you seem particularly committed to one side, when, as you note, it's all hearsay. Of course, Sin ought to be reimbursed for reasonable business expenses, but it's the unreasonable business expenses that are the issue of contention. However, as rational people, I'm sure we can agree on a few things:

(1) We can agree that if Sin used DG profits to pay for things other than DG (e.g., computer, bills, etc.), this would be unfair.

(2) We can agree that if Sin was using DG profits to outsource his workload, and it was expected that Sin was to complete this work on his own, this would be unfair.

As an additional issue to consider, Sin is still in possession of the Patreon account which was in-part elevated by yihman's work. This is an appreciating asset, as it takes time to develop a Patreon following, and there is likely continued lingering support for DG. For example, I know of devs that have completely ghosted that are still getting support for their long-dead games (e.g., ProjectSage).

 

[yihman1]

Way to quote me and then disregard what I wrote. I made my argument on the cost of the assets and electricity that went directly to the game production. Your hotdog stand example ignores this. I ask you, if the friend pays for some or all of the hotdogs, buns, condiments and sodas out of his own pocket and then the proceeds from the stand doesn't even cover what he paid before you close it down, should the friend give your part of the proceeds when you paid for nothing? Of course not. It's a ridiculous claim.

Yes, it's all hearsay, and I heard yihman's say he believed that Sin did pay for some of the assets, but he didn't know how much. So.... We only have yihman's belief without any proof to back it up that Sin didn't pay for everything, but even yihman belives he paid for some. That, plus the extra cost for the electricity that we know must have come from rendering, and considering how little money they made from the game, there wouldn't be much if anything to share after these costs.

So.... with the added electricity cost and using yihman's own words where he believes Sin paid for some of the assets, unless he is lying again to explain why he lied and contradicted himself in his posts, plus the fact that yihman never bothered to contribute any money to pay for things in the production of the game, he is not justified to get any money from Sin. You're defending a guy who claimed that Sin racked up debt and paid for expensive assets for the game, although yihman made it sound like he himself was part of it at the time. Only now did we learn that yihman never paid a cent and then suddenly Sin did not pay all this money toward the game. So it was just all bullshit from yihman? This is the guy you're defending. Moral highground, my ass.

I don't lie. I have no need to lie. I am one of the most brutally honest people you will ever meet. To the point of being abrasive. I may be an asshole, but I am an honest asshole. Any inconsistencies in what I have said could be attributed to me finding out new information since a prior post. Namely from being lied to by sin, an relaying that information. I was a sucker early on and Sin fooled me for a while.

I have privately consulted with 3 other developer friends who use Daz frequently. Showed them DG, and gave them a total count on the number of renders, then asked them to give an estimate on how much those renders would cost to produce. About 10% of what Sin said he spent was a highest estimate. He had to have been cooking the books in some way trying to make his expenses sound as high as possible.

Time = Money

Problem is Sin promised to use time, but instead used money to do his portion of the work that he agreed to do. For example hiring an anonymous daz artist to do the posing portion of the Daz work. He had it setup so the work he needed to do consisted of dragging his cursor over to the render button and clicking render, then sharing the renders with me.

My work:

I coded most of it. (Cost Time)
I wrote it. (Cost Time)
I wrote out in detail what I needed Sin to render. (Cost Time)
I photoshopped the renders to polish them up. (Cost Time)

Sins Work:

Handle social media, but I think he paid a guy to do that. (Cost Money)
Render the images, but once again he paid someone else to pose it. (Cost Money)
Buy a handful of assets and pirate the rest (Cost Money)
Buy a good render rig (Cost Money)

I was putting in time time time time... Sin was putting in money money money money... If Sin could at any point find a way where he could spend money instead of time he did so.

That is why the cost of making Damaged Goods was extraordinarily high. Couple that with us having a massive first release flying under the radar for a long time without launching anything in the hopes of making a solid first release that would generate decent money, and then not raking in the money so fast...

It's understandable for Sin to grow impatient spending money money money money... on no return.
It's understandable for me to grow impatient spending time time time time... on no return.
We both had good reason to be less than pleased about how things were turning out. I waste a lot of time, Sin wastes a lot of money.

Had Sin been more willing to put a little time in to save money, and been more communicative without lies, and not given up on the project in favor of another. Had the game reached a little more respectable income than the $100 or so a month that we made, and broke even some how. If that were the case then we would be still in production on DG, and going strong.

That's not how things went, it got put on hold, then abandoned as Sin absolutely refused to do any work on it, and kept on lying to me.

Once again, never asked Sin for a penny while working on DG. Worked on it for fun, and the experience. I still own half of it, and if Sin wants to own my half, and to make the game without me reviving it from abandonment he is free to purchase it off of me, and he is the only person I would ever sell my half to. All he has to do is make me an offer and its his. I'm not working with him again.

 

[peterppp]

To be clear, I don't know either of the devs and I have no vested interest in this issue. Just out of curiousity, do you? Because you seem particularly committed to one side, when, as you note, it's all hearsay. Of course, Sin ought to be reimbursed for reasonable business expenses, but it's the unreasonable business expenses that are the issue of contention. However, as rational people, I'm sure we can agree on a few things:

(1) We can agree that if Sin used DG profits to pay for things other than DG (e.g., computer, bills, etc.), this would be unfair.

(2) We can agree that if Sin was using DG profits to outsource his workload, and it was expected that Sin was to complete this work on his own, this would be unfair.

As an additional issue to consider, Sin is still in possession of the Patreon account which was in-part elevated by yihman's work. This is an appreciating asset, as it takes time to develop a Patreon following, and there is likely continued lingering support for DG. For example, I know of devs that have completely ghosted that are still getting support for their long-dead games (e.g., ProjectSage).

I don't know either of them. Sin hasn't written in this thread in a long time. I'm commenting on yihman's posts because he is giving his version.

Considering how you once again ignore everything I wrote, I'm questioning your honesty about not being committed to one side. No, it's not "the unreasonable business expenses that are the issue of contention". For a third time: If there is no money left after paying for assets and electricity used for the game, it doesn't matter what other expenses Sin had. Why don't you add a car, a house and a trip around the world to the stuff Sin used "the money from the game for". How much do you think they made from the game? They made a 1000 bucks at the most before DG was dead around May this year. After paying for whatever assets Sin bought and electricity for rendering, there wouldn't be much left, maybe nothing at all. If there is no money left to buy a computer with it, how the fuck can that be the issue of contention? Get real.

Yes, you are correct that Sin was helped by DG and yihman's involvement to get a better start with his new game. It's one positive fallout of this shitshow and it benefits Sin not yihman. Tough luck, but that's how it is. Yihman let Sin handle all the business side (money, paying for stuff, Patreon) so he has to live with that now. Do you expect Sin to cancel the Patreon and make a new one just to be "fair"? It was a shitshow. Let it go and move on.

 

[Deleted member 1157790]

I don't know either of them. Sin hasn't written in this thread in a long time. I'm commenting on yihman's posts because he is giving his version.

Considering how you once again ignore everything I wrote, I'm questioning your honesty about not being committed to one side. No, it's not "the unreasonable business expenses that are the issue of contention". For a third time: If there is no money left after paying for assets and electricity used for the game, it doesn't matter what other expenses Sin had. Why don't you add a car, a house and a trip around the world to the stuff Sin used "the money from the game for". How much do you think they made from the game? They made a 1000 bucks at the most before DG was dead around May this year. After paying for whatever assets Sin bought and electricity for rendering, there wouldn't be much left, maybe nothing at all. If there is no money left to buy a computer with it, how the fuck can that be the issue of contention? Get real.

Yes, you are correct that Sin was helped by DG and yihman's involvement to get a better start with his new game. It's one positive fallout of this shitshow and it benefits Sin not yihman. Tough luck, but that's how it is. Yihman let Sin handle all the business side (money, paying for stuff, Patreon) so he has to live with that now. Do you expect Sin to cancel the Patreon and make a new one just to be "fair"? It was a shitshow. Let it go and move on.

Sure, DG wasn't making a lot of money, and it is possible that the money that was made went towards rendering. But, again, that is not the central issue - the issue is whether DG profits went to other things (i.e., buying a new computer, hiring outside labour for his workload, etc.) that explicitly benefitted Sin. You are selectively ignoring issues noted by yihman that don't fit your narrative.

The fact that you avoid central issues (e.g., buying a computer with DG funds) to generate a strawman (i.e., what you claim money was spent on despite not having any first-hand knowledge) tells me everything I need to know. Given that it is clear that your ego is too wrapped-up in this issue to acknowledge uncontroversial moral positions, there is no value in continuing this dialogue. Feel free to rebut my comment, but I'm moving on and won't be reading it.

 

[yihman1]

I don't know either of them. Sin hasn't written in this thread in a long time. I'm commenting on yihman's posts because he is giving his version.

Considering how you once again ignore everything I wrote, I'm questioning your honesty about not being committed to one side. No, it's not "the unreasonable business expenses that are the issue of contention". For a third time: If there is no money left after paying for assets and electricity used for the game, it doesn't matter what other expenses Sin had. Why don't you add a car, a house and a trip around the world to the stuff Sin used "the money from the game for". How much do you think they made from the game? They made a 1000 bucks at the most before DG was dead around May this year. After paying for whatever assets Sin bought and electricity for rendering, there wouldn't be much left, maybe nothing at all. If there is no money left to buy a computer with it, how the fuck can that be the issue of contention? Get real.

Yes, you are correct that Sin was helped by DG and yihman's involvement to get a better start with his new game. It's one positive fallout of this shitshow and it benefits Sin not yihman. Tough luck, but that's how it is. Yihman let Sin handle all the business side (money, paying for stuff, Patreon) so he has to live with that now. Do you expect Sin to cancel the Patreon and make a new one just to be "fair"? It was a shitshow. Let it go and move on.

This is probably the last time I am going to communicate in this thread. This project is dead, or at least my involvement in it is dead. As I would never wish to work in collaboration with Sin again, and surely that feeling is mutual. Sin has lost his writer team mate (me) due to his unwillingness to work on the project. He claims he never wanted to abandon it, but I'm sorry to fans if this game getting abandoned let them down, but it is impossible for me to just sit around with my thumb up my ass forever hoping that one day Sin would want to make a return to work on it again if that mood ever strikes him. If that day ever does come, which is unlikely, Sin is gonna have to sail this ship without me. I own 50% of the game, and he can pay me to purchase my half if wants it to be all his and to resume working on it. Perhaps hiring a new writer in the process. I wouldn't ask for a massive sum of money, and any fair offer will be accepted. If he offered $1,000 to take my name off of it and make it all his I'd accept it. Considering he claims to have spent over 10 times that on production of the game already, I don't think this is an unreasonable sum to pay the author to own what has already been written. I doubt sin wants to even pay $1 for it as I don't think he has any passion for Damaged Goods.

For me, it's much nicer working with Moon than it ever was working with Sin. If I drop a message I get a response every time. If I do work I get paid. I can tell that Moon's heart is really into working on the project we collaborate on, and he is very passionate about the game we are working on. Sin never really had that fire in his heart about the project that Moon has. Not even on his best day.

As for DG flopping. It only flopped financially, but was a rather popular with fans. A lot of people loved it. It probably didn't even make that $1,000 mark as you suggested, probably closer to like half that. It was different from the norm, and very original and unique. If we hit the goals financially, and faster it may have kept Sins interest, but it didn't. We both had to play the cards we were dealt. That's how we got here.

If all I got out of Damaged Goods is the writing experience, and making friends with Moon, and working together with him now, then I consider the project to be a great success. I was lucky enough that one of my fans just so happend to be working on his own project, and was in desperate need of a writer. I have no regrets.

Further questions and comments are likely to be ignored.

 

[peterppp]

Sure, DG wasn't making a lot of money, and it is possible that the money that was made went towards rendering. But, again, that is not the central issue - the issue is whether DG profits went to other things (i.e., buying a new computer, hiring outside labour for his workload, etc.) that explicitly benefitted Sin. You are selectively ignoring issues noted by yihman that don't fit your narrative.

The fact that you avoid central issues (e.g., buying a computer with DG funds) to generate a strawman (i.e., what you claim money was spent on despite not having any first-hand knowledge) tells me everything I need to know. Given that it is clear that your ego is too wrapped-up in this issue to acknowledge uncontroversial moral positions, there is no value in continuing this dialogue. Feel free to rebut my comment, but I'm moving on and won't be reading it.

Since my first reply must have been deleted by a mod without notifying me about it, I'll try to say this nicely... You don't have first-hand knowledge either so why is it ok for you to claim to know what money was spent on but not me? Doesn't make sense. You're taking yihman's side and his accusations as absolute proof without even hearing Sin's version. While I listen to yihman and even with his belief there wouldn't be much money left for anything but assets and electricity. You are ignoring all this like you can decide what the truth is while I can't even use yihman's word against him. You are wrong.

 

[Armensajo]

Is there a walkthrough? Thx

 

[myuhinny]

There is a built in walkthrough.

 

[godofdeath90]

good game you need to finsh it so good

 

[Zeos]

good game you need to finsh it so good

Agreed

 

[hippotastic]

Honestly, had I known Sin was in the hospital with the drugs, surgery, ect... I'd have totally postponed all of this a couple of weeks or even a month or whatever until he is back home back on his feet and feeling better. The thing is he never dropped me a message saying. "I'm gonna be gone for a week or two because I need to get some surgery." He chose to keep me out of the loop, and not for the first time. A simple 5-second message would have avoided the drama.

It is ironic that you are talking so much and are such a bad communicator. You say this after giving his post the finger?

Anyways I'm not salty at Sin at all like I said I don't hold grudges. I don't hate anyone. I just want him to keep his promises, and stop being so... secretive... It's like he tries to be sneaky but gets caught so easily every time he does this... Boggles my mind. That he doesn't take the time to give me a simple message that would avoid MAJOR drama...

Really? Were you laughing when writing this? Do you really believe after page on page of salty whining we are to believe you are not salty? ...secretive...? If it were me I would have told you to shut it and take a hike long ago. Or maybe mentally he did just that?

Sin is going to do what Sin is going to do. Based on all of his previous actions, and all conversations I have had with him here is what I think his plan is, and how he has executed it so far, and what I think he is trying to do in the future.

So if you are good and guessing his ideas and actions, how did things get so bad? Maybe all these outpourings are not considered pretty or nice, and make you look like you are salty.

I'm usually a pretty laid-back guy. To completely avoid the drama & conflict & stay on good terms with me here is what I think Sin needed to do differently, and it's seriously not a whole lot.

Again, bend your knee before me and do as you are told. But you do not come across as laid back. And it seems the more you do not get what you want, the more not laid back you become.

I am sorry, I have not played this game and so I should maybe stay quiet, but after reading the last 5 or so pages of you over sharing and contradicting yourself in self righteousness saltiness, I had to pipe up. This is not about your game, or your very passionate zeal over it, it is about you and how you come across in your posts. I do not know you as a person, I am sure you are a nice and pleasant person for real, but in these posts...

Sin posted his costs of about $8500, that you agree you have not contributed too. That the GPU burnt out and needed replacing, that your scenes were too complex and heavy even when the GPU was available. And you talk about the costs in a way only one not bearing them can, like a spoilt princess. The costs are real, and if they were talked about up front, you should have listened back then as no one is going to do this for free unless is it a passion project. And for you it is, but you are not taking the hit on the running costs.

And then after he is bearing these costs, you deface his name and reputation, you demand the other party acts in a fashion to please you to "put things right", you publicly in my opinion act unprofessionally as to the point that if I was inclined to get involved in the genre creatively, I would certainly not want to work with you. Or continue if I was already.

(He can wait until he is fully healthy again and out of the hospital for all of this. I'm patient.)

1) Apologize for the way he handled the WoS launch releasing it behind my back, and then not tossing the author a mention or cameo. I felt that was extremely rude, and untrustworthy behavior. It really hurt my feelings that he would act that way.

2) Show that he cares about DG as much as he cares about WoS. No more all talk this requires action. Because actions speak louder than words. The fans are dying for an update. DG needs its own social media presence and to get back in production.

3) Act in a more trustworthy way moving forward. Keeping your promises, and being more willing to set solid internal schedules as we once did."Maybe later" is far too vague and open-ended for me to set aside time to work on something.

Very gracious of you to wait for the artist to get better. Very good.

1) You should apologise unreservedly for this salty out pouring in public. What ever the other party did, I am only commenting on your posts and the tone and salt in them.

2) Time is money. Being involved at the beginning does not breed love for it if it is costing money in the real world. Passion is no reason to lose money. Fan appeal should be reflected in patreon subs. If not, then it is false passion. If you want a art project, you might need to subsidise it to keep it cost neutral.

3) See 1. You should back right off and apologise to allow the other party the chance to respond like an adult. YOU have not acted in a trustworthy manner here in my eyes, and no matter how strong you feel about it, you reacted badly more than once, and more than once had to admit that you did not know all the facts after learning of them.

You want this game to continue? I if I was in the other shoes would not even consider a mediator. I would consider you untrustworthy and I would be weary of working with someone who writes these posts and rigorously feels they are in the right.

You talk about being painfully honest. I think honesty and tact are better directed to the person you have a beef with rather than just brutal whining in public as you did here. Your problems should never have been aired like this. No matter how wronged you feel, I feel it has painted you in a bad light.

my tuppence worth, and this is my own opinion one what I have just read.

 

[yihman1]

It is ironic that you are talking so much and are such a bad communicator. You say this after giving his post the finger?



Really? Were you laughing when writing this? Do you really believe after page on page of salty whining we are to believe you are not salty? ...secretive...? If it were me I would have told you to shut it and take a hike long ago. Or maybe mentally he did just that?



So if you are good and guessing his ideas and actions, how did things get so bad? Maybe all these outpourings are not considered pretty or nice, and make you look like you are salty.



Again, bend your knee before me and do as you are told. But you do not come across as laid back. And it seems the more you do not get what you want, the more not laid back you become.

I am sorry, I have not played this game and so I should maybe stay quiet, but after reading the last 5 or so pages of you over sharing and contradicting yourself in self righteousness saltiness, I had to pipe up. This is not about your game, or your very passionate zeal over it, it is about you and how you come across in your posts. I do not know you as a person, I am sure you are a nice and pleasant person for real, but in these posts...

Sin posted his costs of about $8500, that you agree you have not contributed too. That the GPU burnt out and needed replacing, that your scenes were too complex and heavy even when the GPU was available. And you talk about the costs in a way only one not bearing them can, like a spoilt princess. The costs are real, and if they were talked about up front, you should have listened back then as no one is going to do this for free unless is it a passion project. And for you it is, but you are not taking the hit on the running costs.

And then after he is bearing these costs, you deface his name and reputation, you demand the other party acts in a fashion to please you to "put things right", you publicly in my opinion act unprofessionally as to the point that if I was inclined to get involved in the genre creatively, I would certainly not want to work with you. Or continue if I was already.




Very gracious of you to wait for the artist to get better. Very good.

1) You should apologise unreservedly for this salty out pouring in public. What ever the other party did, I am only commenting on your posts and the tone and salt in them.

2) Time is money. Being involved at the beginning does not breed love for it if it is costing money in the real world. Passion is no reason to lose money. Fan appeal should be reflected in patreon subs. If not, then it is false passion. If you want a art project, you might need to subsidise it to keep it cost neutral.

3) See 1. You should back right off and apologise to allow the other party the chance to respond like an adult. YOU have not acted in a trustworthy manner here in my eyes, and no matter how strong you feel about it, you reacted badly more than once, and more than once had to admit that you did not know all the facts after learning of them.

You want this game to continue? I if I was in the other shoes would not even consider a mediator. I would consider you untrustworthy and I would be weary of working with someone who writes these posts and rigorously feels they are in the right.

You talk about being painfully honest. I think honesty and tact are better directed to the person you have a beef with rather than just brutal whining in public as you did here. Your problems should never have been aired like this. No matter how wronged you feel, I feel it has painted you in a bad light.

my tuppence worth, and this is my own opinion one what I have just read.

Meh... I'll give it a quick several months later update on the situation... Then I'm out.

It is not about being "Upset" or anything like that. It's about transparency, and letting the players and supporters know where development stands. I'm not one to try to sell someone a lemon. You say that you never even played the game. Why do you even care anyways if that is the case? I have no apologies to give sin at this point, nor in the foreseeable future. I regret nothing. Sin and I are not on speaking terms and have not been on speaking terms for a long time. I am currently working with a much more trustworthy, and competent co-developer. It is a much better working environment, and there is much better chemistry and strong communications there. The reason why I would never work with Sin again has nothing to do with his talents as an artist. As an Artist making renders (when he cares) he does a great job (unlike the last DG update) It's the lack of trust due to his multiple broken promises, and inability to make and keep commitments that forever ruined things on my end. If I just "Kept my mouth shut", and nodded along with Sin... Trying to earn "Good Boy Points" DG would still have no updates yet. I wouldn't even have found Moon then to work on KM if I didn't do this. Things worked out well for me. Me, and Moon are making good money. My writing mixed with his visuals has brough Patreon up to a new peak, and climbing, and we are making great frequent releases too and we are both having a lot of fun we just love doing this so much. As for Sin... I'm sure he is doing well as well. In spite of all of the negative feedback in his reviews about the poor writing in his game... Patreon profits are up for him he is doing very well even better than Moon and myself (for now). I'm sure he is happy he doesn't have to deal with me anymore either. So we are both happier, and making more money not working with each other than we ever were working together. There is no reason for me to lick Sins boots and try to go crawling back to him as we are both much better off without each other. I wish him good luck in his current / future projects.