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Xavster

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Game Developer
Mar 27, 2018
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I've read even your explanation several times, but still didn't fully understand what convergence is :D
Maybe you could rephrase it some other way?
EDIT: Okay, I think(?) I started to understand something about this word. If I set it to 95%, it would mean that if pixels in say iteration 999 and iteration 1000 are the same for 95%, rendering will stop. Something like that? And overall image quality might still be bad, but desired convergence is achieved. Eh?
But I got your point that it's a bad way to measure final image quality.

But what is required? Atm I just understand it as "if the scene looks lit well enough for my eyes and adequately to the place, it's good to go". But even if it is not, instead of adding more light with for example ghost lights, I can just bump up exposure value, or F/stop, or ISO, or shutter speed, etc, in tone mapping tab. I don't quite understand the difference.
Convergence from my understanding just means that the successive iterations aren't changing the resultant image. It doesn't necessarily mean that images with high convergence don't have issues.

The main trick with scene lighting is to make it as simple as possible for the rendering engine to process and arrive at a good result. HDRI's are extremely good for fast convergence as all of source light rays traced are directional and low intensity. Hence the final result is primarily a result of light bouncing off the props and straight into the camera. As soon as you add additional lights in the scene, the resultant light to the camera can be from multiple sources. Worst of all are high intensity lights, as when light happens to reach the camera from this source via a single bounce it will show up as a very bright pixel. The rendering engine also has to run a large number of iterations to evaluate what the final image result should be. Most of the lighting in my VN is from a HDRI and typically a maximum of 1 emissive sphere. This emissive sphere is equivalent to a ghost light, however I usually make it larger and lower intensity than a ghost light. Creating your own ghost light is incredibly simple and also gives you far better control. Also note that when you are using a HDRI for interior lighting you will need rotate the dome when the camera changes direction.

Sometimes this goes against what you are trying to achieve with that specific image and you need to have more complex lighting with a higher number of iterations. As an example a night time scene with lighting coming from street lights / cars etc. Also if you have a highly reflective surface you effectively double the light sources which causes problems for convergence. One of my characters also has emissive skin, which causes real problems rendering. Animation frames in which she is included take about 10 times longer to render as I have to bump up the iterations and each iteration takes longer.

There are other ways of lighting a scene for rapid convergence, such as 3-point lighting. The trick however is to make sure that light sources do not compete with each other. In the 3-point lighting system used for portraits, different portions of the face are lit by different lights. Similarly for HDRI + emissive you are better to have the emissive as a prop such as a light on a table or wall light. In the local vicinity it will dominate the lighting, however the HDRI will take over everywhere else.

Okay, so. Here's my example. I have indoors scene, daytime. I have HDRI lightning, I use Iray Indoor camera and sometimes regular daz camera for POVs, since Iray Indoor camera can't have focal length less than 60mm for some reason (the latter requires some tweaking with lights, removing ceiling and/or walls, and mentioned tone mapping). My tone mapping settings are: Exposure value 12.75, F/stop 8, shutter speed ~100, ISO 100, other sliders untouched, if I remember correctly. I also blindly added Nominal Luminance in Filtering tab, just because I read about it somewhere here, set it to 1000 or 10000 (also, I don't see any difference at all with it). Also I have 1-3 simple sphere ghost lights around the character. They have emission value about 4000 to 20000 depending on the scene. I render to final resoultion which is 1080p 16:9.
I read about rendering in 4k and than downsampling to 1080 to get same quality or better, faster, but I usually do batch rendering overnight, so I thought - why bother.
Since before your reply I rendered with convergence reaching method, 95% convergence was reached after 1500-4000 iterations. If you are saying that I should reach good quality in less than 1000 and I don't - what does it mean, what should I do? The obvious answer for me for now is: add more light! But that the scene would look overly exposed. Do I need to add more light into the scene and then reduce stuff such as Exposure value etc? And it should lead to faster... c-converging... better converging? I really still don't understand the meaning of that word.
You can play with the camera properties on the iRay camera, just as you do with any other camera. You just need to unlock the parameters. The only thing you need to be wary of with close ups is that the lighting panes related to the camera do not clip through objects. This will have the effect of internally lighting the object. To correct you just need to move out the offending plane.

As far as you problems with convergence it is actually being caused by the ghost lights. By having several competing with each other you keep getting different results at the camera. If you want it to converge rapidly, just use the HDRI and no emissives. If you want a highlight on the character then use a single 'ghost light' but make it larger with lower intensity. If you double the diameter of the ghost light and drop the intensity by 4 you get the exact same amount of light, however the scene will converge more rapidly.

I actually do that, again with ghost lights, but I thought that's, like, unprofessional? Because since it's a game where you click through the images, and if in 50 images in the same room the lightning changes 10 times - it's kinda strage if not annoying.

Sorry for a wall of text and thank you guys for already quite detailed answers!
For each room you need to set up the lighting to be consistent, even when you change the angle. What I would suggest is that you use a single emissive sphere in the center room (about 1m diameter toward ceiling) in conjunction with a HDRI and iRay interior camera. As you change the rotation (side to side) of the camera you need to also change the HDRI dome rotation. If you want hard shadows, bump up the emissive sphere intensity and lower the environment intensity. Conversely if you want a softer look, wind up the environment intensity and lower sphere intensity. Also note that the HDRI you use should be one designed for scene lighting rather than a background. I tend to use one particular HDRI frequently as it has a combination of brown at the base, blue in upper portion and a hard white light as well. Hence when lighting a character it's like having the brown coming from the wooden floors, blue from the walls / roof and the white from the main interior light.
 

ddeadbeat

Bewbie
Game Developer
Mar 30, 2018
143
1,636
Convergence from my understanding just means that the successive iterations aren't changing the resultant image. It doesn't necessarily mean that images with high convergence don't have issues.
That's what I thought in the end.
Also note that when you are using a HDRI for interior lighting you will need rotate the dome when the camera changes direction.
Now that's what I don't understand. Why do I need to do that? I thought that HDRI is just a panoramic image around your scene. You load it, set it up to fit surroundings and that's it.
You can play with the camera properties on the iRay camera, just as you do with any other camera. You just need to unlock the parameters.
:FacePalm: I'm a dumbass. I completely forgot that I can unlock locked parameters. Or maybe I didn't forget, but just thought "hm, if it's locked, maybe it's locked for a reason?"
If you want a highlight on the character then use a single 'ghost light' but make it larger with lower intensity.
Yeah, that's what I wanted to achieve. Just plain HDRI looks a bit boring. But your advice regading the size of ghost light is super useful!
Thanks again for the answers!
 

Xavster

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Mar 27, 2018
1,243
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That's what I thought in the end.

Now that's what I don't understand. Why do I need to do that? I thought that HDRI is just a panoramic image around your scene. You load it, set it up to fit surroundings and that's it.
Generally what you want to do is have have the primary light source behind the camera. Hence if you re-orientate the camera, you also want to re-orientate the HDRI to give similar lighting whatever angle you face. HDRI's are very good at filling in a scene and removing issues with poorly lit areas in the scene. By using the single emissive source in addition with the HDRI you can create the nice blend between light and shadow. At the essence, every single light source you place in a scene needs to have a purpose. What I often do is isolate different light sources and evaluate their effect on a particular scene. I see this as the best method to tweak light sources to do what they are designed to do. Always keep in mind the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid, as the more complex you make a scene the harder it is to fix / tweak.

PS: I may offend the creator of ghost lights with this comment, however I believe it is a complete waste of time to use this particular asset. What they are relying on is the inability of the Daz user to understand the resources that are already available to them and charging for something that can be recreated in less than a minute, with far better controls than offered by the asset.
 
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31971207

Member
Feb 3, 2020
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Now that's what I don't understand. Why do I need to do that? I thought that HDRI is just a panoramic image around your scene. You load it, set it up to fit surroundings and that's it.
I've been playing with HDRI a lot because it renders fast. The light is from a panoramic image but the image itself contains variations in hues and intensity. By rotating the dome you are effectively changing where the object shines more or less, the shadows and the color of the light. A lot of the commercial HDRI aim to replicate studio lighting and you can tell from the image that they have spot light, fill light and/or rim lights baked into the image. If your character is not in the default pose, you need to rotate the dome to get the HDRI to imitate studio lighting properly.
 

SvenVlad

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Aug 11, 2017
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I've been trying to figure it out the name of this dress, but no luck so far. Does anyone know? :unsure:


katiework3_neutral.png
 

PeerlessDepravity

Softest drink
Game Developer
May 17, 2020
40
131
Hello, hopefully someone can clear my doubts on this. I am trying to do a Daz3D render but for some reason my character's scelera are showing up in black. I've tried applying my eye materials again and even applying different eyes but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I tried loading up my model in an empty scene and the eyes are working fine there. I've also messed around with the lighting but I don't think that's it.

Not sure what to do short of an exorcism, hope someone can point me in the right direction. I've attached an example of what I mean.
 

Deleted member 1121028

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Dec 28, 2018
1,716
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Hello, hopefully someone can clear my doubts on this. I am trying to do a Daz3D render but for some reason my character's scelera are showing up in black. I've tried applying my eye materials again and even applying different eyes but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I tried loading up my model in an empty scene and the eyes are working fine there. I've also messed around with the lighting but I don't think that's it.

Not sure what to do short of an exorcism, hope someone can point me in the right direction. I've attached an example of what I mean.
It's a bug. It happen when the model is too far from the center (0,0,0 xyz). Translate all the assets (group the whole scene) to make your model closer to the center.
 
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osanaiko

Engaged Member
Modder
Jul 4, 2017
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Wow I can't believe it was something that simple. Learned something new today. Thank you very much!
The "unconfirmed fan-theory" by the members of the Daz offical forums is that the relative position calculation of surfaces loses precision at larger distances from the centre due to bad floating point handling, leading to the surface map of the eye to appear on the inside of the eyeball sphere. Whether it is a daz issue or an iray issue is not clear.
 
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osanaiko

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SvenVlad

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I think it looks a lot like this dress, with a different fabric material (and possible the lace part hidden/removed):

View attachment 661641

It's on renderosity:

and this forum! : https://f95zone.to/threads/russians...ntines-day-dress-and-stockings-for-g3f.49480/
It does look somewhat similar. :unsure:
The game from this image came out in march 2017, so it's gotta be something older than that. This one is a possibility.
Thanks 4 the help :D
 

osanaiko

Engaged Member
Modder
Jul 4, 2017
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What did you use to match the fabric?
In the surfaces tab, I set the "cutout opacity" of the lace edge (surface name is "Dress Ruffles") to 0.001 so it's basically invisible.

The material used for the fabric is (looking through files....) "ES Raine Jewelry - Ribbon - 02"

Looks like its part of a bundle i downloaded sometime

But you could probably reproduce a similar effect with any fabric, set it to "PBR metalicity/roughness" and a metalicity of 0.9. set base color to red, and add red metallic flakes. Then just mess with the various roughness and glossy settings till you get what you want. if you want closeups, add some bump and normal maps from another fabric texture, but for shots at a distance of 1+metres then you don't need them.
 
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Xqwzts

Newbie
Oct 8, 2017
65
122
Hello there!

So I tried to find some solution on DAZ forum buut... without any luck.

Here is my problem. From some time my PC keeps freezing just before the render actually appears on screen.
I can't do anything. Not even move my mouse. What is even more strange, scens that I used to render in the past keeps freezing my PC now.

Here is my specs.
Win 10
RTX 2070 Super Gaming X
Intel i7 9700 3.0 Ghz
16GB RAM

Any ideas? I'm not able to render any scene that includes some enviroment and lets say 2 characters and one Iray Shadow light. I can only do some simple things.

For now I tried reinstall DAZ, reinstall my nvidia drivers and still nothing. I changed in advanced render settings CPU and GPU usage but still nothing.
PLEASE HEEELP MEEH :(
 

osanaiko

Engaged Member
Modder
Jul 4, 2017
2,296
3,953
Hello there!

So I tried to find some solution on DAZ forum buut... without any luck.

Here is my problem. From some time my PC keeps freezing just before the render actually appears on screen.
I can't do anything. Not even move my mouse. What is even more strange, scens that I used to render in the past keeps freezing my PC now.

Here is my specs.
Win 10
RTX 2070 Super Gaming X
Intel i7 9700 3.0 Ghz
16GB RAM

Any ideas? I'm not able to render any scene that includes some enviroment and lets say 2 characters and one Iray Shadow light. I can only do some simple things.

For now I tried reinstall DAZ, reinstall my nvidia drivers and still nothing. I changed in advanced render settings CPU and GPU usage but still nothing.
PLEASE HEEELP MEEH :(
Well, the first thing you should do, it take out the GPU, put it in a box, and take it down to the post office to send to me :p

If you don't wanna do that :cry:, then what I would do in your situation is to try a Ram test.

Use this:

If you've got bad ram (especially if you are overclocking) then memory corruption might cause what you are seeing.

You already said you tried updating video card driver, so other things you could try are update motherboard BIOS, remove any dumb shit like keyboard rgb drivers etc (looking at you corsair you piece of poop).
 

31971207

Member
Feb 3, 2020
195
45
Bad ram is pretty rare nowadays. Failed flash memory in SSD on the other hand is pretty common. I did experience something similar, twice, before my SSD failed, just past their warranty (solid state flash is supposedly more durable than mechanical HDD, ha). However, if it works before and not working anymore, AND everything else works BUT Daz rendering, then it could be something interfering like antivirus or malware.
 

31971207

Member
Feb 3, 2020
195
45
I have been playing with hair shaders and I think I screwed up somewhere. I just double clicked between hair shader presets of different products (Colorwerks, UHT, Backlight etc) and noticed that the same preset does not seem to always produce the same result every time. So I took a glance of the surface tab and notice that the shader products don't rewrite everything so I probably have residuals from all the switching. Does this make sense or I am just seeing things that's not there? If so, if I use the original Materials preset will that reset everything, or I will still have residuals? At this point I have no idea what preset does what other than its preview icon, which in the case of Colorwerks is totally useless. It took me hours to dial the morphs for the hair and the accessories parenting to said hair so I don't want to delete the hair and start all over again. I also don't want a random dialed hair shader as I want the same shader for different hairs from different vendors for the same character.

This is my first foray into Daz textures so use little words please.
 
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