HTML A Dance With Rogues Reimagined [v0.1] [TrustyOldPatches]

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Blauz.

Newbie
Jun 7, 2019
56
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I think that is a figure of speech alluding to the discussions that people have when a bestselling book is made into a movie.
regarding the post: other than the opening scene all other abusive scenes are avoidable or can a least be moderated. the opener is a problem, but it is also a most effective way to bring home the message: the main character is the goldenhaired (virgin) princess no more.
 

TrustyOldPatches

Member
Game Developer
Sep 12, 2020
383
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I think that is a figure of speech alluding to the discussions that people have when a bestselling book is made into a movie.
regarding the post: other than the opening scene all other abusive scenes are avoidable or can a least be moderated. the opener is a problem, but it is also a most effective way to bring home the message: the main character is the goldenhaired (virgin) princess no more.
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I would agree if the modules touch the rape subject beyond the heroine being raped, but there is just nothing there. No trauma, no bad thoughts about it, nothing. What is the point about having something as important as rape in a story if you don't plan to do anything with it? I think the trope is there for Vico way more than for the princess.
 

Blauz.

Newbie
Jun 7, 2019
56
29
Actually there is a (long) story arc that settles the rape scene.
In the first version of the game: the second, for NWN EE, is not there yet.

...
Spoiler


Vico is raping the influence under the influence of a demon lord that the princess can deny in the second part.
If she does so AND accepts Vico's excuses -that are in the second part- there is a turning back of certain developments:
among them the princess is a virgin again and gets deflowered by Vico in consentual sex.
Or she can decide not to forgive Vico and plain and simple kill him.

End of Spoiler
...
 

TrustyOldPatches

Member
Game Developer
Sep 12, 2020
383
2,346
Actually there is a (long) story arc that settles the rape scene.
In the first version of the game: the second, for NWN EE, is not there yet.

...
Spoiler


Vico is raping the influence under the influence of a demon lord that the princess can deny in the second part.
If she does so AND accepts Vico's excuses -that are in the second part- there is a turning back of certain developments:
among them the princess is a virgin again and gets deflowered by Vico in consentual sex.
Or she can decide not to forgive Vico and plain and simple kill him.

End of Spoiler
...
I played his story, but that is not what I mean. What I mean is what are the consequences for the princess beyond the kind of relationship that she have with Vico? Does the rape have any influence in the story beyond the conversations that she have with the rapist? It is just not there.

What I'm trying to say is that rape have consequences for the raped person, that are actually just not there in the story.
 

Blauz.

Newbie
Jun 7, 2019
56
29
Obviously rape is a deeply traumatic experience and needs years of therapy to deal with.
A most horrible crime.
This is a game, though. The idea of humiliation that in real life would be insufferable but in fantasy may be kinky for some is what one must accept for many games here or elsewhere. If one does not -that is legit, of course- this site is not a good place to be.
Doing this in real life should get people locked up -with therapy- for the rest of their lives.
 

alkeera

Member
May 1, 2018
195
487
I would agree if the modules touch the rape subject beyond the heroine being raped, but there is just nothing there. No trauma, no bad thoughts about it, nothing. What is the point about having something as important as rape in a story if you don't plan to do anything with it? I think the trope is there for Vico way more than for the princess.
She was put to work in the kitchen so she could get distracted and recover easier. As for the aftermath thoughts it was left for the player to decide and roleplay. It was not only about influence on the princess but also on you as player. Made it easer to identify with the princess. I don't say the scene was absolutely neccesery but it did the job.
 

lordrango

Newbie
Aug 29, 2018
88
295
As huge fan of original ADWR (which got me into adult gaming, honestly), I am skeptical about this.

The huge draw of the original Neverwinter Nights module was that it had high quality game play in addition to adult content, and almost none of that game play seems transferable to HTML.

Therefore, I struggle to see the point of the game.
 

Joe Steel

Engaged Member
Jan 10, 2018
2,316
3,077
The draw of the original NWN version of this mod was never, for me, in the game play. NWN game play was just something you had to endure to experience the story and the characters (NWN was not designed t take place in a city with narrow streets like ADWR realistically has - you can't see the character you control for a good portion of the time outdoors just because the buildings block your view). Remember how combat was like watching a re-enactment of the Battle of Verdun? When the PC entered combat, the player could go off and watch three or four six-minute Monte Python skits while waiting for the fight to be resolved.

I expect this version to have lost far more NWN noise than ADWR signal.
 

Joe Steel

Engaged Member
Jan 10, 2018
2,316
3,077
As for the rape in the beginning, I think that it served the purpose of making it believable that Lyanna was, only a couple of months later, not still whining about being a princess. She needed something horrific to change her mindset away from the rut it had been for her entire life. Maybe having her whipped and sent to the dungeon awaiting execution after seeing her parents' bodies would have worked as well, but it would have taken longer to tell that version of her life-changing trauma. And a life-changing trauma would be needed to make her credible as a thief only a few short months after being the crown princess.
 

TrustyOldPatches

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Game Developer
Sep 12, 2020
383
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As for the rape in the beginning, I think that it served the purpose of making it believable that Lyanna was, only a couple of months later, not still whining about being a princess. She needed something horrific to change her mindset away from the rut it had been for her entire life. Maybe having her whipped and sent to the dungeon awaiting execution after seeing her parents' bodies would have worked as well, but it would have taken longer to tell that version of her life-changing trauma. And a life-changing trauma would be needed to make her credible as a thief only a few short months after being the crown princess.
All the people you know dying, some before your eyes, isn't a traumatic enough event? Losing someone dear to you already changes your life forever, imagine losing absolutely everyone.
 

LTD

Member
Jul 30, 2017
124
111
All the people you know dying, some before your eyes, isn't a traumatic enough event? Losing someone dear to you already changes your life forever, imagine losing absolutely everyone.
I do believe there is a distinction here. For a lot of us, rape fantasy is a big kink, and I think that carries through this event in the original module. It sets the tone, in a sense? As others have said, this is a game. A lewd game. Were this an original work, I'd advise leaning into that, because we all know why we're here, right? (We wanna get off, just in case I wasn't clear.)

Yes, you can change that, even take it out, without necessarily affecting the story. However, what you're talking about by doing that, by it's very nature as being intrinsically sexual, is not the same thing as if it were a non-sexual scene. At least not to those of us who prioritize the non-consensual in our fantasy time. You are, in effect, removing part of the sexual content of the game, of a game that is very sexual. Make sure your reason is sound. I would suggest that you ask yourself what you gain by altering this scene. How does this benefit the overall story? If it doesn't, if it's neutral or even detracts, then why are you making this change?

If this isn't a change made for the sake of change, then why are you doing it? If you don't have a convincing answer to that question, then don't make the change. I mean that in the additive sense. To reiterate, how does this change improve the original story?

Personally, I'm not so worried about this one incident in the story as some others seem to be, but as someone who does look for that "rape" keyword often, I get where they are coming from.
 
Last edited:

TrustyOldPatches

Member
Game Developer
Sep 12, 2020
383
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I do believe there is a distinction here. For a lot of us, rape fantasy is a big kink, and I think that carries through this event in the original module. It sets the tone, in a sense? As others have said, this is a game. A lewd game. Were this an original work, I'd advise leaning into that, because we all know why we're here, right? (We wanna get off, just in case I wasn't clear.)

Yes, you can change that, even take it out, without necessarily affecting the story. However, what you're talking about by doing that, by it's very nature as being intrinsically sexual, is not the same thing as if it were a non-sexual scene. At least not to those of us who prioritize the non-consensual in our fantasy time. You are, in effect, removing part of the sexual content of the game, of a game that is very sexual. Make sure your reason is sound. I would suggest that you ask yourself what you gain by altering this scene. How does this benefit the overall story? If it doesn't, if it's neutral or even detracts, then why are you making this change?

Personally, I'm not so worried about this one incident in the story as some others seem to be, but as someone who does look for that "rape" keyword often, I get where they are coming from.
I did already stated what I gain by removing it. The heroine being raped in such a traumatic way and then having her actively seeking sex, without any trauma or bad thoughts associated with it, is just not realistic for me. It really hurts the roleplaying aspect.

Now this discussion have been interesting because it reminded me of something that I had pretty clear on mind when I started my previous project, but it seems not so much for this one:

I'm doing this project for my own enjoyment, and I don't expect to make big money from it either.
If people like the changes, or any new content, that I Introduce to the originals, and there will be a lot, that's good. But if they don't, that's ok too.
 
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Blauz.

Newbie
Jun 7, 2019
56
29
I agree that taking the rape scene out is a good idea. I am one of those that have posted in the NWN vault proposing that. Valentine -the story builder- is still around and building the updated version for EE.

Gameplay in NWN is special: but in the old version it was possible to get the "thief" feeling by sneaking around.
EE has a completely fucked handling in my opinion, and that is the real enemy. I have been addressing that in the NWN vault, too, and most people agree that it is next to impossible to sneak through the bloody sewers (a large part of the game, that is centering on sex and theft) without running into some rats or other critters. That starts a fight and ends any stealth approach.

What I would like if one of my games were adapted to another engine (none are, but if...) was being asked for allowance. That is between you and Valentine, though: none of my business.
I have used the "princess survives the fall of daddy's castle with great personal losses" approach for several games myself.

I like your version, too: it is a point and click/textadventure version of the game, and indeed more accessible.
If you would finish this I for one would be thankful. (Nudge: go ask Valentine if she is ok with that if you have not done so already).
 

LTD

Member
Jul 30, 2017
124
111
I did already stated what I gain by removing it. The heroine being raped in such a traumatic way and then having her actively seeking sex, without any trauma or bad thoughts associated with it, is just not realistic for me. It really hurts the roleplaying aspect.

Now this discussion have been interesting because it reminded me of something that I had pretty clear on mind when I started my previous project, but it seems not so much for this one:

I'm doing this project for my own enjoyment, and I don't expect to make big money from it either.
If people like the changes, or any new content, that I Introduce to the originals, and there will be a lot, that's good. But if they don't, that's ok too.
That is a very subjective reason, but I didn't specify, so...

I think your reason sits funny with me because a lot of people do, in fact, experience hypersexuality as a response to past sexual trauma. Don't take my word for it, look it up yourself.

Never mind that this is a lewd game in a fantasy setting and all of that!

But hey, ultimately, I'm a "make your game the way you want" type. I'll decide if it's for me or not, but definitely do what you want to do!
 

TrustyOldPatches

Member
Game Developer
Sep 12, 2020
383
2,346
I agree that taking the rape scene out is a good idea. I am one of those that have posted in the NWN vault proposing that. Valentine -the story builder- is still around and building the updated version for EE.

Gameplay in NWN is special: but in the old version it was possible to get the "thief" feeling by sneaking around.
EE has a completely fucked handling in my opinion, and that is the real enemy. I have been addressing that in the NWN vault, too, and most people agree that it is next to impossible to sneak through the bloody sewers (a large part of the game, that is centering on sex and theft) without running into some rats or other critters. That starts a fight and ends any stealth approach.

What I would like if one of my games were adapted to another engine (none are, but if...) was being asked for allowance. That is between you and Valentine, though: none of my business.
I have used the "princess survives the fall of daddy's castle with great personal losses" approach for several games myself.

I like your version, too: it is a point and click/textadventure version of the game, and indeed more accessible.
If you would finish this I for one would be thankful. (Nudge: go ask Valentine if she is ok with that if you have not done so already).
I sended her a PM a few months ago, but she never replied. I assumed she wasn't very active anymore.

I went for it anyway because it is stated in the neverwinter page that the modules are open so long as the resulting project is free and open too, which my game is.
 
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TrustyOldPatches

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Sep 12, 2020
383
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That is a very subjective reason, but I didn't specify, so...

I think your reason sits funny with me because a lot of people do, in fact, experience hypersexuality as a response to past sexual trauma. Don't take my word for it, look it up yourself.

Never mind that this is a lewd game in a fantasy setting and all of that!

But hey, ultimately, I'm a "make your game the way you want" type. I'll decide if it's for me or not, but definitely do what you want to do!
That's why I said the not a bad thought or trauma part. It's a disorder that seriously impact the victim beyond that increased sexual activity. None of that is reflected on the princess.

But I get your point. So I'll leave this discussion here.
 

Joe Steel

Engaged Member
Jan 10, 2018
2,316
3,077
All the people you know dying, some before your eyes, isn't a traumatic enough event? Losing someone dear to you already changes your life forever, imagine losing absolutely everyone.
Hearing about the deaths of loved ones but never seeing any bodies is traumatic, but I'm not sure how personality-destroying it would be.

I'm not arguing that the near-rape scene should be changed to an actual rape. That's done and in the can, and think your time would be much better-spent advancing the story. I was just commenting on the idea of some that the rape scene served no purpose other than titillation.
 

lordrango

Newbie
Aug 29, 2018
88
295
The draw of the original NWN version of this mod was never, for me, in the game play. NWN game play was just something you had to endure to experience the story and the characters (NWN was not designed t take place in a city with narrow streets like ADWR realistically has - you can't see the character you control for a good portion of the time outdoors just because the buildings block your view). Remember how combat was like watching a re-enactment of the Battle of Verdun? When the PC entered combat, the player could go off and watch three or four six-minute Monte Python skits while waiting for the fight to be resolved.

I expect this version to have lost far more NWN noise than ADWR signal.
I've played NWN (and various modules) many, many times. While it doesn't have the most intuitive camera controls, it works rather well once you get used to it and I've never had issues.
What first drew me into the module is that for the first time you were not supposed to be able to fight out of every situation. You were a rogue, and getting noticed meant serious trouble.

You could argue that Aurora engine wasn't really built for sneaking around, a statement I wouldn't disagree much with, but ADWR did an excellent job with it, given the constraints.

How will author represent patrol movement pattern in HTML? Light sources? Sight range? Lines of sight? Simply navigating the giant city of Betancuria in HTML is going to be a chore. What about when it comes to combat and resting?
I don't see it working well.

When it comes to rape scene in the beginning, I feel it should have been left in. It serves two very important functions:

1) it hammers home the point that the princess is effectively no longer a princess, but a very vulnerable girl who will get taken advantage of and who can get killed easily, without anyone shedding a tear. In fact, it would be just one of the traumas she would have to deal with. It serves to hammer home the point that she is no longer royalty, that she has hit the bottom, she's now lowest of the low, all alone in a very dangerous world. The rest of the game was about her rising again, albeit in a different way.

2) it sets at the very beginning that princess isn't a virgin (which she would have been as a princess otherwise) and sorts out the potentially massive amount of dialogue variations that would otherwise have to be written.

Considering that this is an even darker variant of the middle ages, you have to assume rapes and other types of violence happen, quite often, and people deal with it.

One could argue that the princess would have been effectively raped on her wedding night, meaning that in all likelyhood she would have been married off to someone she had never seen before who would have forced himself on her on their wedding night, whether she was ready or not.

Most importantly, I don't see any role playing problems. You're not forced to role play the princess to actively seek out sexual encounters. All other sexual encounters in the game were avoidable, so you could role play the princess to your heart's content. She could be a frigid ice queen, or she could be complete slut and anything in between.
 
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