HTML A Dance With Rogues Reimagined [v0.1] [TrustyOldPatches]

[ZebCaff]

I've played NWN (and various modules) many, many times. While it doesn't have the most intuitive camera controls, it works rather well once you get used to it and I've never had issues.
What first drew me into the module is that for the first time you were not supposed to be able to fight out of every situation. You were a rogue, and getting noticed meant serious trouble.

You could argue that Aurora engine wasn't really built for sneaking around, a statement I wouldn't disagree much with, but ADWR did an excellent job with it, given the constraints.

How will author represent patrol movement pattern in HTML? Light sources? Sight range? Lines of sight? Simply navigating the giant city of Betancuria in HTML is going to be a chore. What about when it comes to combat and resting?
I don't see it working well.

When it comes to rape scene in the beginning, I feel it should have been left in. It serves two very important functions:

1) it hammers home the point that the princess is effectively no longer a princess, but a very vulnerable girl who will get taken advantage of and who can get killed easily, without anyone shedding a tear. In fact, it would be just one of the traumas she would have to deal with. It serves to hammer home the point that she is no longer royalty, that she has hit the bottom, she's now lowest of the low, all alone in a very dangerous world. The rest of the game was about her rising again, albeit in a different way.

2) it sets at the very beginning that princess isn't a virgin (which she would have been as a princess otherwise) and sorts out the potentially massive amount of dialogue variations that would otherwise have to be written.

Considering that this is an even darker variant of the middle ages, you have to assume rapes and other types of violence happen, quite often, and people deal with it.

One could argue that the princess would have been effectively raped on her wedding night, meaning that in all likelyhood she would have been married off to someone she had never seen before who would have forced himself on her on their wedding night, whether she was ready or not.

Most importantly, I don't see any role playing problems. You're not forced to role play the princess to actively seek out sexual encounters. All other sexual encounters in the game were avoidable, so you could role play the princess to your heart's content. She could be a frigid ice queen, or she could be complete slut and anything in between.

There's a #3 in favour of keeping the scene as it was: it establishes the character of Vico unambiguously.

 

[lordrango]

Sure, it helps with that. Vico could have easily been labeled a knight in shining armour, since he effectively saves the life of the princess, were it not for that scene.

It could be argued also that simply a rape attempt is enough to establish his character, but actual act serves the purpose much more brutally.
In addition, it also establishes the fact that the group is not really a safe place for the princess - her life might not be under immediate threat, but there are many who would want to kill her, or sell her out. It's not the Merry Men of Robin Hood style of thieves guild, it's a very dangerous group of rapists, cutthroats, thieves, scumbags and assassins.

 

[TrustyOldPatches]

I've played NWN (and various modules) many, many times. While it doesn't have the most intuitive camera controls, it works rather well once you get used to it and I've never had issues.
What first drew me into the module is that for the first time you were not supposed to be able to fight out of every situation. You were a rogue, and getting noticed meant serious trouble.

You could argue that Aurora engine wasn't really built for sneaking around, a statement I wouldn't disagree much with, but ADWR did an excellent job with it, given the constraints.

How will author represent patrol movement pattern in HTML? Light sources? Sight range? Lines of sight? Simply navigating the giant city of Betancuria in HTML is going to be a chore. What about when it comes to combat and resting?
I don't see it working well.

When it comes to rape scene in the beginning, I feel it should have been left in. It serves two very important functions:

1) it hammers home the point that the princess is effectively no longer a princess, but a very vulnerable girl who will get taken advantage of and who can get killed easily, without anyone shedding a tear. In fact, it would be just one of the traumas she would have to deal with. It serves to hammer home the point that she is no longer royalty, that she has hit the bottom, she's now lowest of the low, all alone in a very dangerous world. The rest of the game was about her rising again, albeit in a different way.

2) it sets at the very beginning that princess isn't a virgin (which she would have been as a princess otherwise) and sorts out the potentially massive amount of dialogue variations that would otherwise have to be written.

Considering that this is an even darker variant of the middle ages, you have to assume rapes and other types of violence happen, quite often, and people deal with it.

One could argue that the princess would have been effectively raped on her wedding night, meaning that in all likelyhood she would have been married off to someone she had never seen before who would have forced himself on her on their wedding night, whether she was ready or not.

Most importantly, I don't see any role playing problems. You're not forced to role play the princess to actively seek out sexual encounters. All other sexual encounters in the game were avoidable, so you could role play the princess to your heart's content. She could be a frigid ice queen, or she could be complete slut and anything in between.

What you're expecting is a remake, this is not. You won't be able to free roam the city, you won't have standard game combat in it, you won't have sneak gameplay. All of that will be text oriented. What you see in the 0.1 version is what you can expect from the game.

I understand not liking it if you're a fan of those elements in the original modules. That's totally ok, it just means this version is not for you. Someday we might get a proper remake, but that is not what I'm aiming for.

About the Vico rape part, I consider it a detriment to the story, as I explained. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[lordrango]

What you're expecting is a remake, this is not. You won't be able to free roam the city, you won't have standard game combat in it, you won't have sneak gameplay. All of that will be text oriented. What you see in the 0.1 version is what you can expect from the game.

I understand not liking it if you're a fan of those elements in the original modules. That's totally ok, it just means this version is not for you. Someday we might get a proper remake, but that is not what I'm aiming for.

About the Vico rape part, I consider it a detriment to the story, as I explained. So I'll leave it at that.

Sure, I have no problem with that. I'm just expressing my opinion.

I was just surprised when I saw almost the exact same text that was in the original module, pretty much word for word, IIRC (played up until going back to kitchen after meeting master Nathan). While the original module was quite good in that regard, that was not its selling point.

The module was a cocktail of various ingredients. If you take everything out but one ingredient, it's gonna be very bland.

You were probably better off doing a different story within the ADWR universe.

Please take this as an attempt at constructive criticism. I wish you all the best with the module regardless of my skepticism.

 

[TrustyOldPatches]

Sure, I have no problem with that. I'm just expressing my opinion.

I was just surprised when I saw almost the exact same text that was in the original module, pretty much word for word, IIRC (played up until going back to kitchen after meeting master Nathan). While the original module was quite good in that regard, that was not its selling point.

The module was a cocktail of various ingredients. If you take everything out but one ingredient, it's gonna be very bland.

You were probably better off doing a different story within the ADWR universe.

Please take this as an attempt at constructive criticism. I wish you all the best with the module regardless of my skepticism.

If you think the story is bland on its own then yeah, you won't enjoy this.

Personally I can't stand the neverwinter gameplay anymore. If I want good gameplay I turn on BG3 or Elden Ring. For my last playthought of a Dance with Rogues I used cheats to avoid dealing with the combat, and it was a really enjoyable experience for me. That's why this project was born. I just want a way to experience the story, retouched to my own tastes, without having to deal with the outdated neverwinter systems.

 

[Seyon]

Personally I can't stand the neverwinter gameplay anymore. If I want good gameplay I turn on BG3 or Elden Ring. For my last playthought of a Dance with Rogues I used cheats to avoid dealing with the combat, and it was a really enjoyable experience for me. That's why this project was born. I just want a way to experience the story, retouched to my own tastes, without having to deal with the outdated neverwinter systems.

I feel the same. I've tried ADWR mod some years ago and liked the story but couldn't stand the gameplay so i dropped it after some time. So now im extra exited about your version. Only things i would add are more pics of enviroment and characters.
Btw given this game in not too heavy on renders, and the main skeleton of the story is out there done already (i assume you would want to change some parts for your liking), how often can we expect updates for this game?

 

[TrustyOldPatches]

I feel the same. I've tried ADWR mod some years ago and liked the story but couldn't stand the gameplay so i dropped it after some time. So now im extra exited about your version. Only things i would add are more pics of enviroment and characters.
Btw given this game in not too heavy on renders, and the main skeleton of the story is out there done already (i assume you would want to change some parts for your liking), how often can we expect updates for this game?

Can't say for sure. I hope to be able to release 0.2 around the end of the year, but I can't promise anything yet.

It might not look it, but converting the story from the neverwinter toolset to Twine takes some serious time. The renders are really time consuming too, and I'm adding a few extra ones for the 0.1 part.

 

[Blauz.]

I consider gameplay at EE enemy action: the game is actively trying to kill you with bad controls.
Sneaking through moving critters that you can hardly if at all see... no can do.
That was completely different with the old engine. When I want to do the sneaking I use the old 2-part version of the game.The graphic is not half as good but works, and the gameplay is great.
The story is great in both versions, and Valentine has in the 2nd version added some very interesting story arcs.
I would love a tabletop RPG campaign with all the new storylines...

 

[lordrango]

If you think the story is bland on its own then yeah, you won't enjoy this.

Just to clarify, I never said that and I don't think the story is bland. The point was that story was part of a greater whole and just yanking it out and re-typing it in twine without everything else will end up feeling bland.

 

[TrustyOldPatches]

Just to clarify, I never said that and I don't think the story is bland. The point was that story was part of a greater whole and just yanking it out and re-typing it in twine without everything else will end up feeling bland.

Frankly, this is getting a little grating.

There is something else there beside being on twine. The renders, sounds and the expanding/rewriting of the text weren't there in the modules. You would have seen it if you actually bothered to finish it.

I try to answer everyone politely, but so far your imput have been:

-You don't see the point of this project.
-You think I should have done a different story in the same universe.
-You think I'm just re-typing the text.

All that without actually playing it to completion.

Why bother engaging with this in any way if those are your thoughts? You don't have to answer that, I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[lordrango]

Frankly, this is getting a little grating.

There is something else there beside being on twine. The renders, sounds and the expanding/rewriting of the text weren't there in the modules. You would have seen it if you actually bothered to finish it.

I try to answer everyone politely, but so far your imput have been:

-You don't see the point of this project.
-You think I should have done a different story in the same universe.
-You think I'm just re-typing the text.

All that without actually playing it to completion.

Why bother engaging with this in any way if those are your thoughts? You don't have to answer that, I'm putting you on ignore.

Sure, go ahead.

You were the one suggesting that I found the story bland, which is not what I said, so I clarified.

It was not my intention to insult you in any way. I just offered my view on the entire thing.

Keep in mind this is not an original project of yours. You are altering what is considered a masterpiece.

 

[Blauz.]

May I suggest that whoever does not like the game and has no idea how to make it better ("do all different!" dos not count) just shuts up before another game builder (or supporter, this is a promotion of sorts for the original game) is too pissed to keep working?
Build your own game if you do not like this one. Share it, and we will see what to do better.
Or offer support/advise that can be applied.

 

[alkeera]

May I suggest that whoever does not like the game and has no idea how to make it better ("do all different!" dos not count) just shuts up before another game builder (or supporter, this is a promotion of sorts for the original game) is too pissed to keep working?
Build your own game if you do not like this one. Share it, and we will see what to do better.
Or offer support/advise that can be applied.

I agree that it is too soon to judge this version right after initial release and it is hard to get myself rid of "theoriginalisbetter" bias.
But it all just makes me more curious and agitated about it.
How will the dev manage economic system in new medium? What about wardrobe and inventory? What is the alternative to dice rolls, d&d skills, stealth and battle system? How will absence of freeroam and exploration affect storytelling? What changes will be made in the story? How will the dev utilize this whole new visual dimension and power to render story in parallel with words? Questions, questions.
Im glad i got onboard this early, because watching the development of this game from the beginning is as fun as playing one.

 

[lordrango]

May I suggest that whoever does not like the game and has no idea how to make it better ("do all different!" dos not count) just shuts up before another game builder (or supporter, this is a promotion of sorts for the original game) is too pissed to keep working?
Build your own game if you do not like this one. Share it, and we will see what to do better.
Or offer support/advise that can be applied.

So, every game thread should be only about praise?

I don't agree with that. Especially as it is not an original project but a remake or re-imagining or whatever you want to call it of an old cult classic. If authors don't want their projects talked about (both good and bad) don't release them to the public.

Now, I've played the entire game in the meantime and so far it's pretty much a kinetic novel with copy/pasted text from the original ADWR module. It feels much less impactful because the rest of the game is missing.

Maybe it can pick up in the future, but so far, it's very mediocre, IMHO a 2* or 3* out of 5. I don't want to leave a review just yet because I do not want to lower the rating this early as there are only two other reviews, and maybe I will get positively surprised later on.

 

[Blauz.]

So, every game thread should be only about praise?

I don't agree with that. Especially as it is not an original project but a remake or re-imagining or whatever you want to call it of an old cult classic. If authors don't want their projects talked about (both good and bad) don't release them to the public.

Now, I've played the entire game in the meantime and so far it's pretty much a kinetic novel with copy/pasted text from the original ADWR module. It feels much less impactful because the rest of the game is missing.

Maybe it can pick up in the future, but so far, it's very mediocre, IMHO a 2* or 3* out of 5. I don't want to leave a review just yet because I do not want to lower the rating this early as there are only two other reviews, and maybe I will get positively surprised later on.

Either you have not read all that I wrote -short as it was- or you are not able to understand what you read. I cannot tell because I do not know you. But if you try -hard- to read my post AND succeed you will find that I have asked for praise AND constructive criticism. Maybe you just do not know what that is: some people here have real problems with the idea.
So let me please explain: one can -some of us- offer criticism that does not hurt. That does not sound like: "You are an idiot." That is no insult. One CAN point out things that one would not do like the gamebuilder does, and offer alternate choices.
That's what I have been saying. You did not get that, but that is not all bad: life is learning, and you COULD grow from pissing on content builders to being helpful. I know you can. Do you want to try?

 

[lordrango]

Either you have not read all that I wrote -short as it was- or you are not able to understand what you read. I cannot tell because I do not know you. But if you try -hard- to read my post AND succeed you will find that I have asked for praise AND constructive criticism. Maybe you just do not know what that is: some people here have real problems with the idea.
So let me please explain: one can -some of us- offer criticism that does not hurt. That does not sound like: "You are an idiot." That is no insult. One CAN point out things that one would not do like the gamebuilder does, and offer alternate choices.
That's what I have been saying. You did not get that, but that is not all bad: life is learning, and you COULD grow from pissing on content builders to being helpful. I know you can. Do you want to try?

Ok, let's ignore you being a giant douche for a second.

1) Offering opinions and assessments of quality is precisely the point of this board. That is why we have reviews. People leave their subjective opinions. If I don't like this or any other game, that doesn't stop you from liking it.

2) What is constructive criticism is subjective, first and foremost. I pointed out that HTML is very ill suited to capture the ADWR feeling and game play and I was interested how is that going to be worked out. The answer was that none of it will done, to which I replied that the overall experience with keeping just text might be bland. The answer to that was that the game was not for me if I found the story of the original bland, which is not what I said, so I offered a correction.

In addition I offered an explanation why the original rape scene was important, but that is a minor point overall. It can work without it, just requires a little more suspension of disbelief, no big deal for me. That is very constructive. It is just not positive.

3) The author put me on ignore so I can't hurt him anymore anyway. If he doesn't want to hear my opinion, that's perfectly fine. I don't care. I will still continue to express it when and if I see fit.

So, on the whole, author's answers were not convincing enough for me, and using ADWR's good name to promote your own project without even trying to capture the gist of it may also be in the morally grey area for some.

At this point I may say I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I honestly don't care.

 

[Blauz.]

Ok, let's ignore you being a giant douche for a second.

1) Offering opinions and assessments of quality is precisely the point of this board. That is why we have reviews. People leave their subjective opinions. If I don't like this or any other game, that doesn't stop you from liking it.

2) What is constructive criticism is subjective, first and foremost. I pointed out that HTML is very ill suited to capture the ADWR feeling and game play and I was interested how is that going to be worked out. The answer was that none of it will done, to which I replied that the overall experience with keeping just text might be bland. The answer to that was that the game was not for me if I found the story of the original bland, which is not what I said, so I offered a correction.

In addition I offered an explanation why the original rape scene was important, but that is a minor point overall. It can work without it, just requires a little more suspension of disbelief, no big deal for me. That is very constructive. It is just not positive.

3) The author put me on ignore so I can't hurt him anymore anyway. If he doesn't want to hear my opinion, that's perfectly fine. I don't care. I will still continue to express it when and if I see fit.

So, on the whole, author's answers were not convincing enough for me, and using ADWR's good name to promote your own project without even trying to capture the gist of it may also be in the morally grey area for some.

At this point I may say I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I honestly don't care.

You are arrogant, unable to read texts and expect everyone to do as you please. Your lack of care hurts me deeply, and never have I been hurt so much like you calling me names.

 

[Joe Steel]

Ok, let's ignore you being a giant douche for a second.

1) Offering opinions and assessments of quality is precisely the point of this board. That is why we have reviews. People leave their subjective opinions. If I don't like this or any other game, that doesn't stop you from liking it.

2) What is constructive criticism is subjective, first and foremost. I pointed out that HTML is very ill suited to capture the ADWR feeling and game play and I was interested how is that going to be worked out. The answer was that none of it will done, to which I replied that the overall experience with keeping just text might be bland. The answer to that was that the game was not for me if I found the story of the original bland, which is not what I said, so I offered a correction.

In addition I offered an explanation why the original rape scene was important, but that is a minor point overall. It can work without it, just requires a little more suspension of disbelief, no big deal for me. That is very constructive. It is just not positive.

3) The author put me on ignore so I can't hurt him anymore anyway. If he doesn't want to hear my opinion, that's perfectly fine. I don't care. I will still continue to express it when and if I see fit.

So, on the whole, author's answers were not convincing enough for me, and using ADWR's good name to promote your own project without even trying to capture the gist of it may also be in the morally grey area for some.

At this point I may say I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I honestly don't care.

TBH, I think that your criticisms and questions are well-founded, but premature. Let's see how the story develops before judging whether it can properly be done in Twine.

I'd also recommend that you not respond to Blauz. Many years of experiencing his posts here and elsewhere have convinced me that engagement is futile.

 

[aifgamer]

I think a story-only remake of the original game is kind of interesting, but to do a story-only remake that re-writes major elements of the story? I don't know, seems kind of tacky. What's the point of doing a story-only remake if you aren't going to respect the story?

 

[TrustyOldPatches]

I think a story-only remake of the original game is kind of interesting, but to do a story-only remake that re-writes major elements of the story? I don't know, seems kind of tacky. What's the point of doing a story-only remake if you aren't going to respect the story?

Because this is not a remake. Said it before but this is not meant to replace the modules in any way.