Ren'Py A Family Venture [v0.09 V1 Beta] [WillTylor]

[reidanota]

In many ways, I absolutely agree with the desire to have a game with that level of nuanced relationship possibilities, but from a development standpoint, that would be an absolute nightmare to attempt. Put (very) simply, every time a choice was made (or not made), two new story paths would have to branch off, including two sets of unique scene renders (with some crossover, of course), and then if a certain choice is only available on one of those paths, two new sets of everything would need to be done there, ad nauseum, until the story paths merged back together, but the variables would still need to be tracked and interactions and choice possibilities would constantly need to be checked throughout the primary storyline.
It's kind of a two-sided coin. On the one hand, sandbox games are awesome for the players, because it gives them agency in how the story is told, which lends to immersion where we become part of the story instead of just having it told to us. On the other hand, every choice the developer decides to put into the hands of the player has the chance of geometrically increasing the complexity of what needs to go into the game.
As an aside, I just say that I hope AFV never has an ending, because it is, in my personal opinion, one of the best sandbox AVNs out there and I would love to see it grow and expand for years to come, because there is still so much untapped story potential just waiting to find its sexy time in the sun

That's right on spot, sandbox games are not an easy thing to develop, especially in an engine created mostly to tell linear or branching stories. Summertime Saga is, imho of a lay person, an example both of how it can work, and how it can go wrong - having the ambition of making an entire open world dynamic through quests, it often hits blocking issues when a character that one quest expects to be somewhere at a given time, is actually forced by another quest to be somewhere else (and derivations of this). But what you mentioned reinforces the usefulness of making variations happen in episodes, rather than definitive or long lasting branches. If NTR is on, date goes on in a certain way, if it's off, in another way, but branches meet immediately afterwards and the game goes on as usual. It actually makes sense with the nuanced approach: couple has a generally good relationship, one of them makes a faux pas, it has consequences but they quickly get over it. It can make a character feel more dynamic, as long as there's a good context for the variation, without changing it at all. An actual branching should be reserved for critical decisions that are intended to provide independent routes. What I said before I hoped of this game, given its open-ended perspective, was that its NTR relied more on multiple contained episodes, than a fundamental branching of the story.

As a quick illustration of what I mean, I made this suggestion in another thread: https://f95zone.to/threads/inheritance-va95-aftermath-team.6291/post-14842285 That game is structured in a way that most events take over and end without interacting with other ongoing events, making it easier to tell short episodes that may depend on a parameter or two, that enrich the character but are intended to not change the character, or the relationship with the MC.

 

[Handifap]

That's right on spot, sandbox games are not an easy thing to develop, especially in an engine created mostly to tell linear or branching stories. Summertime Saga is, imho of a lay person, an example both of how it can work, and how it can go wrong - having the ambition of making an entire open world dynamic through quests, it often hits blocking issues when a character that one quest expects to be somewhere at a given time, is actually forced by another quest to be somewhere else (and derivations of this). But what you mentioned reinforces the usefulness of making variations happen in episodes, rather than definitive or long lasting branches. If NTR is on, date goes on in a certain way, if it's off, in another way, but branches meet immediately afterwards and the game goes on as usual. It actually makes sense with the nuanced approach: couple has a generally good relationship, one of them makes a faux pas, it has consequences but they quickly get over it. It can make a character feel more dynamic, as long as there's a good context for the variation, without changing it at all. An actual branching should be reserved for critical decisions that are intended to provide independent routes. What I said before I hoped of this game, given its open-ended perspective, was that its NTR relied more on multiple contained episodes, than a fundamental branching of the story.

As a quick illustration of what I mean, I made this suggestion in another thread: https://f95zone.to/threads/inheritance-va95-aftermath-team.6291/post-14842285 That game is structured in a way that most events take over and end without interacting with other ongoing events, making it easier to tell short episodes that may depend on a parameter or two, that enrich the character but are intended to not change the character, or the relationship with the MC.

You bring up a few great points there. One of the shortcomings of the Ren'py platform is that, out of the box, it's basically set up to be a choose-your-own-adventure style visual novel creator. Thankfully, they built it on top of one of the easiest scripting languages out there (Python), and designed it with creator control in mind. That said, it's not terribly difficult to make all of the nuance happen in theory. All it really takes is a whiteboard, several hundred sticky notes, and a lot of alcohol (an essential research and development tool). The issues really come in (and I'm sure WillTylor and strenif will back me up here) when you actually have to create every single fucking render required for those nuanced scenes happen. It's an impossible tradeoff. I'm sure that Will has a few thousand ideas that he wants to throw into the game, but when you try to go from concept to Lauren, Mandy, and the MC having a three-way while Aunt Cami is standing in the doorway and Matt is peeping through the window, along with everything that led up to it, and the aftermath, you're in for 50+ renders that might take ten minutes or a couple hours each, an overnight animation or two, and you've forgotten whether the cat shit in the box or if it was you because you've been too busy trying to stuff an ice block into your computer to cool it down.
That's actually one of the things I like about AFV: all of the side adventures have room for expansion, and Ren'py is fairly easy to work with in terms of going back and adding new content. For example, the "night games" with Mandy and Lauren can be expanded (nudge nudge, wink wink) at any point in further development. It adds extra content to the game without impacting the primary storyline. The same can be said for the cosplay, Aunt Cami housework, Agent Diaz, Jacky, etc. side bits. And still, the primary story is essentially unaffected. It's a hard thing to pull off, however, if you've got reactions/scenarios that may affect interpersonal relationships down the line. That's a lot of variables to track, and differences that need to be addressed if you're going to keep your game making sense.
I think that Will has managed to handle that fairly well with the Affection/Libido/Submission/Anger stats on the girls which will lock you out of some story-driving/repeatable scenes if they're not at the right values, and the prerequisites for some storyline progression events, such as the student election.
I've gotten a bit off topic, I think, but really what I wanted to get at is that (pretty much) every game (of any kind) is a narrative that takes the player through a core story, so I absolutely agree with you that it should always come back to the main branch so that there's progress of some kind, leading toward a goal (whatever that might be banging the entire cheerleading squad in the showers), but getting all of the nuances of possibility into a game is bloody fucking hard. As a fledgling AVN developer, myself, even with a background in programming, game design/development, and adapting a 600 page novel that I've already written, it's not exactly a walk in the park. Every time a what if comes up, it costs me hours and hours of scene setup, set dressing, and rendering time. I recently lost two days to a stray thought of "well...what would've happened if he decided to open that door, instead?"
Dynamic characters are great. As a writer, I love it when one of them goes haring off to do something that I totally didn't have planned. When I wake up the next day and realize that I actually have to figure out the myriad consequences of an errant pen stroke, I usually want to take myself out into the woods and live with the squirrels so that they might come to worship me as their sovereign master and nest in my wilderness beard.
Variations in the storyline take a lot of time when we have to subjugate technology into bringing our concepts to pixelated life, and AFV has done it better than most. Give them time, head over to SS and pledge a subscription. The more people that support it, the faster it will move along, and the more that they'll be able to start wedging into the game.

On that note, I have either had too much to drink, or not enough, so I'll be heading off to fix it, one way or another

P.S. Apologies for the rambling. Please reference the above sentence.

 

[reidanota]

You bring up a few great points there. One of the shortcomings of the Ren'py platform is that, out of the box, it's basically set up to be a choose-your-own-adventure style visual novel creator. Thankfully, they built it on top of one of the easiest scripting languages out there (Python), and designed it with creator control in mind. That said, it's not terribly difficult to make all of the nuance happen in theory. All it really takes is a whiteboard, several hundred sticky notes, and a lot of alcohol (an essential research and development tool). The issues really come in (and I'm sure WillTylor and strenif will back me up here) when you actually have to create every single fucking render required for those nuanced scenes happen. It's an impossible tradeoff. I'm sure that Will has a few thousand ideas that he wants to throw into the game, but when you try to go from concept to Lauren, Mandy, and the MC having a three-way while Aunt Cami is standing in the doorway and Matt is peeping through the window, along with everything that led up to it, and the aftermath, you're in for 50+ renders that might take ten minutes or a couple hours each, an overnight animation or two, and you've forgotten whether the cat shit in the box or if it was you because you've been too busy trying to stuff an ice block into your computer to cool it down.
That's actually one of the things I like about AFV: all of the side adventures have room for expansion, and Ren'py is fairly easy to work with in terms of going back and adding new content. For example, the "night games" with Mandy and Lauren can be expanded (nudge nudge, wink wink) at any point in further development. It adds extra content to the game without impacting the primary storyline. The same can be said for the cosplay, Aunt Cami housework, Agent Diaz, Jacky, etc. side bits. And still, the primary story is essentially unaffected. It's a hard thing to pull off, however, if you've got reactions/scenarios that may affect interpersonal relationships down the line. That's a lot of variables to track, and differences that need to be addressed if you're going to keep your game making sense.
I think that Will has managed to handle that fairly well with the Affection/Libido/Submission/Anger stats on the girls which will lock you out of some story-driving/repeatable scenes if they're not at the right values, and the prerequisites for some storyline progression events, such as the student election.
I've gotten a bit off topic, I think, but really what I wanted to get at is that (pretty much) every game (of any kind) is a narrative that takes the player through a core story, so I absolutely agree with you that it should always come back to the main branch so that there's progress of some kind, leading toward a goal (whatever that might be banging the entire cheerleading squad in the showers), but getting all of the nuances of possibility into a game is bloody fucking hard. As a fledgling AVN developer, myself, even with a background in programming, game design/development, and adapting a 600 page novel that I've already written, it's not exactly a walk in the park. Every time a what if comes up, it costs me hours and hours of scene setup, set dressing, and rendering time. I recently lost two days to a stray thought of "well...what would've happened if he decided to open that door, instead?"
Dynamic characters are great. As a writer, I love it when one of them goes haring off to do something that I totally didn't have planned. When I wake up the next day and realize that I actually have to figure out the myriad consequences of an errant pen stroke, I usually want to take myself out into the woods and live with the squirrels so that they might come to worship me as their sovereign master and nest in my wilderness beard.
Variations in the storyline take a lot of time when we have to subjugate technology into bringing our concepts to pixelated life, and AFV has done it better than most. Give them time, head over to SS and pledge a subscription. The more people that support it, the faster it will move along, and the more that they'll be able to start wedging into the game.

On that note, I have either had too much to drink, or not enough, so I'll be heading off to fix it, one way or another

P.S. Apologies for the rambling. Please reference the above sentence.

Thanks loads, that will have taken you a while to pen down. I'm no game developer, you will have guessed that, but often can't be satisfied with just playing games so I take some time thinking about how they're made. Not entirely different than imagining you're engaging with an author while reading a book. 4th wall breaking and all that. It's great to get a sobering insight into the toils of actually making something happen like the the scenes one may think of, let alone a coherent story and game. TBH I never pondered on the trouble of making 3dcg visuals. I guess Ren'Py makes it particularly important, as the text per screen is much more limited than what you get with other engines, especially those more geared towards text like twine/sc and qsp. My only attempt to develop anything was in qsp, using "real porn" - which makes it doubly easier compared to ren'py. I noticed some ren'py authors circumvent part of the trouble by reutilising sprites instead of rendering a unique scene each screen change. May seem lazy, but it works, when you have a lot of text, to have sprites with different poses and expressions that let you change something on the screen when the text changes without having to create an entirely new render. "Shattered" comes to mind, that endless wall of (great) text. Only full renders are sexy scenes, if memory doesn't fail me.

 

[strenif]

Thanks loads, that will have taken you a while to pen down. I'm no game developer, you will have guessed that, but often can't be satisfied with just playing games so I take some time thinking about how they're made.

This is how I ended up developing AFV with Will btw.

Went from fan, to making story suggestions, to learning DAZ so I could do fan art, to being a part of the team once my DAZ skills were up to par.
All because I wasn't satisfied with just playing the game =D

It's very rewarding if you ever decide to dip your toe into these waters.

 

[Handifap]

Thanks loads, that will have taken you a while to pen down. I'm no game developer, you will have guessed that, but often can't be satisfied with just playing games so I take some time thinking about how they're made. Not entirely different than imagining you're engaging with an author while reading a book. 4th wall breaking and all that. It's great to get a sobering insight into the toils of actually making something happen like the the scenes one may think of, let alone a coherent story and game. TBH I never pondered on the trouble of making 3dcg visuals. I guess Ren'Py makes it particularly important, as the text per screen is much more limited than what you get with other engines, especially those more geared towards text like twine/sc and qsp. My only attempt to develop anything was in qsp, using "real porn" - which makes it doubly easier compared to ren'py. I noticed some ren'py authors circumvent part of the trouble by reutilising sprites instead of rendering a unique scene each screen change. May seem lazy, but it works, when you have a lot of text, to have sprites with different poses and expressions that let you change something on the screen when the text changes without having to create an entirely new render. "Shattered" comes to mind, that endless wall of (great) text. Only full renders are sexy scenes, if memory doesn't fail me.

If you ever decide to poke around Ren'py (or just watch some tutorials), you'll find that the "standard" process is actually just what you mentioned: static backgrounds with character sprite overlays. In fact, a good chunk of the screen language that it uses is dedicated just to that, and is set up to to layer compositing (such as having a base character, and then multiple expressions that can easily be changed without reloading anything else) to streamline the art development even more and dramatically reduce the number of unique renders needed. Remember that it was originally designed for pure visual novels, so the core of the engine was built around the needs of narrative and dialogue.
Then, of course, the wonderful degenerates of the internet got ahold of it, took DAZ (originally just a content creator for Poser, which was really just intended to be an artist's tool to replace reference mannequins), and hit the ground running like they stole something (they did, we did, and everyone is still giddy about it).
The sprite style of Ren'py games definitely has its place, in that it provides a more "interactive" seeming style of play (generally more movement on-screen because of the sprites sliding/popping in and out, and those style of games are generally heavier on the dialogue), but for the AVN market, in my opinion at least, AFV's style of fully rendered scenes to drive the story is far more engaging. It might be a bit metric fucktonne more work, but the visual payoff is huge. As strenif mentioned above, if you ever decide to start dabbling with DAZ, it can be a lot of fun, and very rewarding. There's a massive asset release thread here on F95 (because we're dirty, dirty pirates), and you can find more at Shadowcore, render-state, and several other sites if you really get into it (and have a couple spare hard drives lying around).

This is how I ended up developing AFV with Will btw.

Went from fan, to making story suggestions, to learning DAZ so I could do fan art, to being a part of the team once my DAZ skills were up to par.
All because I wasn't satisfied with just playing the game =D

It's very rewarding if you ever decide to dip your toe into these waters.

I've always wondered how you managed to sneak your way on board lol. I remember seeing your renders start popping up in the fanart thread a few years ago when I was a solid lurker, and the next thing I knew, you were officially working on AFV. Honestly, I hold you and Will personally responsible for recently getting me into DAZ and deciding to make my own game, so thank you for all the sleepless nights and hours of cursing all the control sliders in Golden Palace. Like, seriously, why are vaginas so fucking complicated? You know you've spent too much time in DAZ when you start looking at porn frame by frame just to figure out how everything is supposed to move

 

[strenif]

Haha. I know exactly what you mean.
I was very hesitate at first because I knew I'd start looking at every h-game with a critical eye instead of just enjoying the game. Sure enough, I did.

"Oh, I like that trash bag assets they used here."
"Ugh, the lighting could be better."
"Her tits look weird in that shot, they should have used a different camera angle."

 

[doccop63]

Haha. I know exactly what you mean.
I was very hesitate at first because I knew I'd start looking at every h-game with a critical eye instead of just enjoying the game. Sure enough, I did.

"Oh, I like that trash bag assets they used here."
"Ugh, the lighting could be better."
"Her tits look weird in that shot, they should have used a different camera angle."

But that's how it goes when you're on the other side of the fence. I love reading, especially sci-fi. I love good stories, no matter the genre and it's easy to say yay or nay about a story until you actually begin dabbling into writing. Then you have to learn things like story outlines, protagonist/antagonist backgrounds, plot set-ups, formatting, central conflicts, and dozen of other things. When you're on the inside and see just how much work is involved, you learn to appreciate those folks that can pull off a great story and make it look seamless. This applies to other RL jobs. It's easy to say, "Why don't you (fill in the blank)" when you don't understand what it takes to do something successfully. That's why I can appreciate and support the great devs, artists, writers, and modders out there. To quote a wrestling character in the old days, "Pimping ain't easy."

 

[razfaz]

Less Talk, more enjoy.
Time for an update, else this chan goes (more) nuts.

 

[SlavicBrah]

Bro the walkthrough for this game is either wrong or i am braindead,if you dont go for romance on the first date with mom,you are basically stuck in the infinite loop of having sex with her on every date.

 

[Handifap]

Haha. I know exactly what you mean.
I was very hesitate at first because I knew I'd start looking at every h-game with a critical eye instead of just enjoying the game. Sure enough, I did.

"Oh, I like that trash bag assets they used here."
"Ugh, the lighting could be better."
"Her tits look weird in that shot, they should have used a different camera angle."

Trash bag asset???? WHERE? I NEEDZ DAT! ..for like...something...maybe?...yeah Oh ye olde gods, I'm coming to realize that I'm a total asset hoarder now that I'm working with DAZ. Lighting is its own little nightmare when I start thinking about volumetrics now. And tits? I used to think that girls were great because they were soft and smelled good. Now I feel like I need an advanced physics degree just to understand why a nipple looks like it's mocking me. Curse you, DAZ. And bless you to the bottom of your digital heart.

But that's how it goes when you're on the other side of the fence. I love reading, especially sci-fi. I love good stories, no matter the genre and it's easy to say yay or nay about a story until you actually begin dabbling into writing. Then you have to learn things like story outlines, protagonist/antagonist backgrounds, plot set-ups, formatting, central conflicts, and dozen of other things. When you're on the inside and see just how much work is involved, you learn to appreciate those folks that can pull off a great story and make it look seamless. This applies to other RL jobs. It's easy to say, "Why don't you (fill in the blank)" when you don't understand what it takes to do something successfully. That's why I can appreciate and support the great devs, artists, writers, and modders out there. To quote a wrestling character in the old days, "Pimping ain't easy."

I couldn't agree more. I grew up immersed in books, but it wasn't until I started writing (and then took some actual classes, which changed my entire thought process) that I really started to understand how difficult it is to build a world and then have characters living on the damn thing. Everything seems to look easy from the outside, whether it's writing, game development, or waiting tables. It's not until you start to understand what's actually required to make those things happen (and make sense) that you truly start to appreciate them for what they truly are.
That's really the primary reason that I appreciate AFV so much. There's a solid core behind the story that doesn't rely a slew of MacGuffins (Google it...everyone knows what they are, even if they don't know the term), and even though the "world" is small in terms of scope, it's well thought out and ties into itself well. There's enough character depth that the MC and LIs aren't just I R WALKING PENIS and I HAS VAGINAZ THING, which everyone has seen too many times. One of the greatest things a creator of any kind can do is to make their audience actually care about their creations. It's not an easy thing, but I think AFV has managed to pull that one off pretty well, and not just for the MC. Look through these forums, and you'll find plenty of examples of people who are looking to play the game without "upsetting" various characters, or they want to do quite the opposite. That...right there...is good writing, and should be lauded for the effort and creativity it requires.

Less Talk, more enjoy.
Time for an update, else this chan goes (more) nuts.

Oy! We all want an update to enjoy. Personally, I'm hoping for an eventual Kenzie/Mandy/Lauren/MC/maybe the entire fucking swim team and cheerleading squad (just not Matt because fuck Matt) sexfest, but we'll all have to be patient to see what/how/when that does or doesn't happen. For now, the more we discuss the game and what goes into it drives how many people support the development (I would hope), and maybe gets us some of those updates a little quicker.
Not at all disparaging your comment...really just riding its coattails to voice how much I, and I'm sure many other people, are itching for another update, too. Give the devs time. They actually care about the quality of the game and not just the number of renders with tits, which is one of the things that sets AFV apart from so many other h-games.

 

[f9z5]

Small bug.

Lauren: Wait... Ryan/s buying you lingerie.

Should have <name> there I guess.

Mom: While I wish your bother didn't have such <...>

Should be brother?

 

[ewewewewew]

very hot game dev! hoping for more ntr scenes!

 

[jojo901]

Hello Guys,
i'm missing one card, anyone knows how to get it?

 

[Handifap]

Hello Guys,
i'm missing one card, anyone knows how to get it?
View attachment 4052526

Check the house map, maybe? Possibly the kitchen area? I think you're looking for the 2 of diamonds, but I don't remember exactly where I found it.

 

[jojo901]

Check the house map, maybe? Possibly the kitchen area? I think you're looking for the 2 of diamonds, but I don't remember exactly where I found it.

thank's, found it, chair in front of TV

 

[MrRick]

I am running in circles at this point. I'm tired of trying to complete these other objectives to get the collection over with. Are there some mandatory ones you need to get done first? I gave money and put up perfect posters for weeks and then saw that it said to let her start to lag behind for a couple of weeks to see what she would do. Now I'm back to donating money every week and putting up posters to trigger this election but cannot get it to start on Friday mornings in class. What exactly do I have to do to get out of this loop?

 

[strenif]

I am running in circles at this point. I'm tired of trying to complete these other objectives to get the collection over with. Are there some mandatory ones you need to get done first? I gave money and put up perfect posters for weeks and then saw that it said to let her start to lag behind for a couple of weeks to see what she would do. Now I'm back to donating money every week and putting up posters to trigger this election but cannot get it to start on Friday mornings in class. What exactly do I have to do to get out of this loop?

To end the election, go to class on Friday morning.
Unless you are on an NTR run, make sure you have won over the School Board member and got his support to change the school uniforms.

 

[MrRick]

To end the election, go to class on Friday morning.
Unless you are on an NTR run, make sure you have won over the School Board member and got his support to change the school uniforms.

I kind of made mixed choices throughout so I don't know which route I'm on. How do I get the option to talk to school board members?

And I do thank you for the assistance

 

[strenif]

I kind of made mixed choices throughout so I don't know which route I'm on. How do I get the option to talk to school board members?

And I do thank you for the assistance

If you're talking to Lauren in the HQ, she'll give you a status update on what to do next.
Make sure Mandy has moved in and transferred schools to yours (if she's sleeping with Lauren at night she has).
Make sure you've shown Megan the footage Diaz helped you get of Matt cheating on her.
Talk to the school board member and then have breakfast and tell Jacky about meeting with him.

There's a walk through linked in to OP if you want a step by step guide.

 

[MrRick]

If you're talking to Lauren in the HQ, she'll give you a status update on what to do next.
Make sure Mandy has moved in and transferred schools to yours (if she's sleeping with Lauren at night she has).
Make sure you've shown Megan the footage Diaz helped you get of Matt cheating on her.
Talk to the school board member and then have breakfast and tell Jacky about meeting with him.

There's a walk through linked in to OP if you want a step by step guide.

Oh yeah Mandy is already transferred to the school. I keep going to the meetings but I haven't seen nothing about meeting with an official though. My problem with looking at the guide is I'm so far into it and passed some of those parts that I can't even tell which part I should be looking at to get back on track