VN Ren'Py Completed A Knight's Tale [v0.36 SE] [Neverlucky]

I'm Not Thea Lundgren! · Dec 17, 2019

lionarslan said:
Can you please tell me where I said even a word about historical accuracy? When writer (of book/comic book/screenplay of any kind/texts in a computer game) creates a fictional medieval world he usually tries to make his fiction believable. And he asks himself "Why are things in my fictional world are exactly this and not any other way?" Then answers. If the only answer he can give himself "Because I want it that way" then his creation is on a level of schoolboy/girl fan fiction. And if you never read such things, believe me, it's unreadable. My criticism points not on historical accuracy (who cares about that in fictional world?) but on the lack of logic. Honestly I don't care about nobility system, women rights and wealth of commoners when it's explained. The only thing player know - it's medieval fictional world. But player don't see much medieval in that. Modern underwear, modern speech, modern society - just horses instead of cars and swords instead of guns.
No one forbids dev from using common sense. No one forces dev to behave like MC of this game. Who rides through his own land but don't know is there any inn nearby, who rides his familiar horse but cannot calculate time for his way back to castle. And who tries to sell his own land to village when he perfectly realises that if village can buy his land then they become independent and not in any way under his rule. Just logic and common sense, let history aside.

If you don't like it, don't play it!

GingerbreadMan · Dec 17, 2019

lionarslan said:
Can you please tell me where I said even a word about historical accuracy? When writer (of book/comic book/screenplay of any kind/texts in a computer game) creates a fictional medieval world he usually tries to make his fiction believable. And he asks himself "Why are things in my fictional world are exactly this and not any other way?" Then answers. If the only answer he can give himself "Because I want it that way" then his creation is on a level of schoolboy/girl fan fiction. And if you never read such things, believe me, it's unreadable. My criticism points not on historical accuracy (who cares about that in fictional world?) but on the lack of logic. Honestly I don't care about nobility system, women rights and wealth of commoners when it's explained. The only thing player know - it's medieval fictional world. But player don't see much medieval in that. Modern underwear, modern speech, modern society - just horses instead of cars and swords instead of guns.
No one forbids dev from using common sense. No one forces dev to behave like MC of this game. Who rides through his own land but don't know is there any inn nearby, who rides his familiar horse but cannot calculate time for his way back to castle. And who tries to sell his own land to village when he perfectly realises that if village can buy his land then they become independent and not in any way under his rule. Just logic and common sense, let history aside.

I actually like this game pretty much, just as I liked Triangle.

There are a dozen things in here that aren't historically correct (or what we think would be historically correct) or illogical (from a historical correctness point of view).
And there are even more reasons why NeverLucky might have done them in the way he did.

Just a few things right out of my head:

- no models for medieval underwear available
- we can actually read and understand the text in one go
- there can be actual conversations because people can express their opinions and stand by them
- we get to have sexy scenes and encounters
- he doesn't have the hardware/time to render 5 instead of 1 cook, 10 additional maids, some pages and all those people you would expect being around in the castle.

What would we gain by having a story about a male squire, a maid that was never in the same room as the MC, a wife that just does what the MC commands and weaves all day, streets full of shit and a redheaded girl that was accused of witchcraft for being out late?

I think the right way to look at this is the same way as to watch the movie 'A knights tale' with Heath Ledger.
The movie contains a ton of 'wrong' stuff - and there is an official explanation for that - they wanted to do a movie that people 'understand' and can get into - therefore they took the scenes and made them so that a modern audience can grasp what is expressed. When the characters dress fancy, it is medievalish - but with a modern touch - almost no one would recognize if a dress was 'old' or 'fancy' in 1416. Or if the armor was 'in' at the time of the movie or 30 years prior.
Women are much more forward then they might have been back then (and then again, we only have so many (highly colored) reports - nobody knows what individual ones behaved like with no one watching ('behind every strong man stands a strong woman') and at the tjost, they are singing 'We will rock you'.
Most likely that is historically incorrect - but the scene feels to us like that tjost might have felt to people in medival times.

This is not a medieval simulation or needs to have a working farming system in its background so they can actually produce what is rendered for their meals.
I like history and am interested in the medieval times - and though I can play Dungeons and Dragons as well as enjoy this game.
Either accept that this is a lighthearted game with medivalized scenes that flow smoothly or go somewhere else to find that grisly game that offers you to get an arranged marriage to the wife that brings you the largest dowry and dies during the birth of your first child.

lionarslan · Dec 17, 2019

GingerbreadMan said:
I actually like this game pretty much, just as I liked Triangle.

There are a dozen things in here that aren't historically correct (or what we think would be historically correct) or illogical (from a historical correctness point of view).
And there are even more reasons why NeverLucky might have done them in the way he did.

Just a few things right out of my head:

- no models for medieval underwear available
- we can actually read and understand the text in one go
- there can be actual conversations because people can express their opinions and stand by them
- we get to have sexy scenes and encounters
- he doesn't have the hardware/time to render 5 instead of 1 cook, 10 additional maids, some pages and all those people you would expect being around in the castle.

What would we gain by having a story about a male squire, a maid that was never in the same room as the MC, a wife that just does what the MC commands and weaves all day, streets full of shit and a redheaded girl that was accused of witchcraft for being out late?

I think the right way to look at this is the same way as to watch the movie 'A knights tale' with Heath Ledger.
The movie contains a ton of 'wrong' stuff - and there is an official explanation for that - they wanted to do a movie that people 'understand' and can get into - therefore they took the scenes and made them so that a modern audience can grasp what is expressed. When the characters dress fancy, it is medievalish - but with a modern touch - almost no one would recognize if a dress was 'old' or 'fancy' in 1416. Or if the armor was 'in' at the time of the movie or 30 years prior.
Women are much more forward then they might have been back then (and then again, we only have so many (highly colored) reports - nobody knows what individual ones behaved like with no one watching ('behind every strong man stands a strong woman') and at the tjost, they are singing 'We will rock you'.
Most likely that is historically incorrect - but the scene feels to us like that tjost might have felt to people in medival times.

This is not a medieval simulation or needs to have a working farming system in its background so they can actually produce what is rendered for their meals.
I like history and am interested in the medieval times - and though I can play Dungeons and Dragons as well as enjoy this game.
Either accept that this is a lighthearted game with medivalized scenes that flow smoothly or go somewhere else to find that grisly game that offers you to get an arranged marriage to the wife that brings you the largest dowry and dies during the birth of your first child.

Thanks for constructive answer.
I don't know why everyone skips the things I talk about and making some strange assumtions. Again, I don't care about any historical accuracy till it's explained. I don't try to show dev how he need to do his game, it's his business. But it doesn't take much time or text to explain the setting you present. You have you own nobility system, OK, tell us about it. A few words, as MC's thoughts, for example. You have modern gender situation in your setting, that's fine, tell us about it. And so on. I say it again, all we know is it's a fictional medieval world. And being the one who actually studied history in school and spent years in DMing medieval campaign with fictinal things like magic (and my players loved this campaign) I perfectly fine with any medieval world if creator of this world explained me differencies from default, even partly, in his game. When I see medieval, I expect medieval. With all the things you said in your message. If setting is medieval in it's core but has some unique features then please, good dev, explain that features for poor players who see not what they expect to see.
And, well, I don't expect to see many models in renders, that's why I never said a word about it. And if dev has no models for medieval underwear available (which I sinserely doubt, models of common shirt or long blouse I already saw) then I think it's quite logical to not use any. After all, in medieval times nakedness was not really shamed as in today's world.

GingerbreadMan · Dec 17, 2019

lionarslan said:
Thanks for constructive answer.
I don't know why everyone skips the things I talk about and making some strange assumtions. Again, I don't care about any historical accuracy till it's explained. I don't try to show dev how he need to do his game, it's his business. But it doesn't take much time or text to explain the setting you present. You have you own nobility system, OK, tell us about it. A few words, as MC's thoughts, for example. You have modern gender situation in your setting, that's fine, tell us about it. And so on. I say it again, all we know is it's a fictional medieval world. And being the one who actually studied history in school and spent years in DMing medieval campaign with fictinal things like magic (and my players loved this campaign) I perfectly fine with any medieval world if creator of this world explained me differencies from default, even partly, in his game. When I see medieval, I expect medieval. With all the things you said in your message. If setting is medieval in it's core but has some unique features then please, good dev, explain that features for poor players who see not what they expect to see.
And, well, I don't expect to see many models in renders, that's why I never said a word about it. And if dev has no models for medieval underwear available (which I sinserely doubt, models of common shirt or long blouse I already saw) then I think it's quite logical to not use any. After all, in medieval times nakedness was not really shamed as in today's world.

I think it's because you mentioned those examples (nobility system, women's rights, ... ) pretty much at the beginning and only later explained that it's not about themselves being there but your wish for a setting explanation.

And I have to admit that I (because I read multiple comments, that actually were about historical correctness and started almost exactly like your comment, already) started skipping parts of your comment in the end, resulting in that wish for an explanation not being that prominent in my perception. I can just assume, that it was something similar for others too.

I think our approach is just different here. If I read a book about a historical subject or watched a documentary I definitely would expect them to be as correct and detailed as possible. Each movie or book I would expect to have a strong setting backbone which includes that it can work based on its design ideas and is in itself logically correct.
But while I do lament about wrong armors, weapons and a lot of other stuff including logic (in general in movies, not limited to historical ones) if it's too obvious or concentrated, based on the medium my expectations are just lower here regarding the amount of correctness and/or logic.

Therefore, in this case, I expected the 'medieval' to be just enough to give the game a little flavor - some coating on top of (based on Triangle) a nice, lighthearted feel-good story - not a completely though out setting (and even those of have large holes in their logic sometimes). And an actual story with a coherent enough plot-line. So everything medieval-ish I get is nice and appreciated - as long as it supports my expectations towards the rest of the game, assuming that everything presented is a setting definition in itself, supported by the environment even if not shown/explained in detail. If NeverLucky would start to introduce contradictory elements or the characters behaved implausible based on what is already established - that would be something I would have a problem with.

I had some stumbling moments at the very beginning - why is the MC the only one of 'color', why is he without an entourage, why didn't his squire learn to ride before - and why wouldn't he buy a horse for her first thing?
In the end, I accepted that the entourage wouldn't add any benefit to the story and only cost rendering time - like in almost any other game here.
Then the game needs to get the characters together - a familial surrounding helps to explain why they are this comfortable with each other in a very short time - it also allows them conversations otherwise impossible.
The horse thing - while his wife sleeping with her maid for warmth is plausible and helps to get them together, how is the MC going to do that with his squire? Always on separate horses, secure in inns, and in their own rooms?
The solution is to exchange the gym time with sparring and let them have some unfortunate bad luck outdoors. The shared horse just helps to get them closer before the rain. It's just one big effort to get the MC and squire close at the same rate as wife and maid. Definitely the most cringe-worthy element here - but at this time the expectations towards genre and author won me over and in expectation of some higher quality content I came to accept those other elements.

By accepting this part as totally normal for some unknown reasons, we get some sweet and intimate encounters with the quire and the story keeps going without stalling. A big win I would think.

Yakis0ba · Dec 17, 2019

lionarslan said:
And medieval society was much healthier than any modern society.

(Context indicates it is not about actual health like medicine, life expectancy, or presence or absence of plague.)

[Also, as to the MC seemingly being a baron due to his small territory, and therefore should not report to a king but rather to someone of a lower rank--the Holy Roman Empire had about 350 (at least) Free Imperial Knights who ruled about 1500 estates which were, on average, 3 square miles, but were direct vassals of the Emperor. Even if it were the family and not the individual estate owners who were direct vassals of the Emperor, that still average to less than 13 square miles per family.]

lionarslan · Dec 18, 2019

Yakis0ba said:
(Context indicates it is not about actual health like medicine, life expectancy, or presence or absence of plague.)

Yeah, you're right about that. Life expectancy, medicine and so on - it's health of human beings, biological level. Health of the society - that's social level. Speaking of definition, I'd call it the amount of pressure society can endure before it crumbles to mindless crowd. In other words, it is how much every person tied to societal services, not only things like electricity or water, but health care, communal support, tolerance to deviancy, tolerance to individual luxury and so on. More ties - less health for society. Because society is a way for us humans to be stronger together not something we totally rely on like a heavy drug and not something we cannot survive without.

Yakis0ba said:
[Also, as to the MC seemingly being a baron due to his small territory, and therefore should not report to a king but rather to someone of a lower rank--the Holy Roman Empire had about 350 (at least) Free Imperial Knights who ruled about 1500 estates which were, on average, 3 square miles, but were direct vassals of the Emperor. Even if it were the family and not the individual estate owners who were direct vassals of the Emperor, that still average to less than 13 square miles per family.]

OK, I take back my words about nobility. Other things still there.

erkper · Dec 18, 2019

lionarslan said:
OK, I take back my words about nobility. Other things still there.

Bottom line is, you're applying your expectations - based on your knowledge of what life was like in a historical setting - on the dev's creation which is NOT based on a historical setting.

Yakis0ba · Dec 20, 2019

GingerbreadMan said:
we can actually read and understand the text in one go

I'm curious as to what dialogue should be used to make it feel more real. To be accurate, it would need to be Middle English*, which is quite incomprehensible to the modern reader. You could make it modern English and just toss in some "thees" and "thous" and add "-eth" to some words, but that's Shakespearean-era English, between 200 and 600 years after the game's alluded-to time period.

*Assuming they're speaking English at all, which is a whole different issue.

GingerbreadMan · Dec 20, 2019

Yakis0ba said:
I'm curious as to what dialogue should be used to make it feel more real. To be accurate, it would need to be Middle English*, which is quite incomprehensible to the modern reader. You could make it modern English and just toss in some "thees" and "thous" and add "-eth" to some words, but that's Shakespearean-era English, between 200 and 600 years after the game's alluded-to time period.

*Assuming they're speaking English at all, which is a whole different thing.

Exactly my thoughts.

I doubt there are many people around that can understand Eowins song from LotR without subtitles for example (old English / Anglo Saxon)...

A third point after this and the question of the used language itself would be the 'structure' for a lack of a better word. Even if modern English was used, if every sentence was build/structured as the people spoke back then, I highly doubt that the read would be that enjoyable for us. More like reading some heavy Engrish.

laiostoo · Dec 22, 2019

the game looks very fancy

DavidTurner · Dec 27, 2019

hmm well darn. It sounded interesting to me, until I read the line, "what will your wife do about it" and realized who the dev was. Their previous game was definitely good, though the premise wasn't to my particular liking, I'm assuming this game will follow the same strain. If this is something you are into then you are definitely in for a great game, and I highly recommend Triangle, the dev is an amazing writer who tells a great story with beautiful renders

Repuci · Dec 31, 2019

Version 0.5 on svscomics

SevereSlimeShaker · Dec 31, 2019

Official download links for v0.5
Patreon post: