- Thread starter HangoverCat
- Start date
- Mar 25, 2022
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HAhaha, you are right about everything here, but maybe you are empathizing too much with the characters lol. We are meant to peek at, and even understand, the reasoning and motivations of the characters, but not necessarily to empathize with them. There is no question on how fucked up Laura is, but seeing her self-justifications and progressing corruption is what a lot of us are here for. The amount of hate you developed probably means that she was a well realized character.
The truth is, not many NTR stories feature heroines with as much depth. That depth is a bottomless pit of psychological issues, but it's definitely more interesting than the usual.
Perfectly understandable I guess I just got too heated when seeing the bs laura does lol, Im a ntr guy myself but for some reason seeing the amount of effort put behind making a character as hatable as possible really got me going lol
- Sep 21, 2018
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To say Atelier Sakura is irrelevant to NTR game discussion is... well it's wrong. Every game is compared to it's like. Their games have any bad relationship, or bad idea to do in a relationship, you can think of, down to just plain MC is in a relationship with a slut. So I'm talking about the NTR genre as a whole, at least when referring to Atelier Sakura games. I get it wrong too, so it's no worries and I find myself wrong more than I like. If you like this genre you should play some of their games. Most are not translated, but you can easily get around that with Sugoi Translator Toolkit, don't need to be connected to the internet, everything you need is there. I'm using Sugoi-Translator-Toolkit-V5.0-Public specifically. The translator works on most VNs (haven't found one that doesn't).
I don't agree with a vanilla scene taking away from the core experience of this genre, without them it is junk. Read any number of 25 pages or less h-manga, with ntr themes, for an example of what I mean. The story build up is a must, without it there is nothing, no story, no drama, just porn. Think about if we where only told about Harry and Laura's relationship, with no vanilla scenes. We would have nothing to compare to how Luca and Laura have rough sex, no idea how Harry loved Laura, but that didn't happen. We see how reserved she is with Harry, how sweet she is with him, she is able to get off with him with some effort. Then we see how that all falls away, as the blackmail game goes on. That's key to of these stories, it has very little to do with wanting a vanilla scene, or hating some particular route.
To add one or more 'good' endings lets the player have agency. It is the 'real' story, not really. It's a short route normally, like I posted before. It can have a scene, but it doesn't 'need' it, but it's better with one. It gives the player an idea of what the MC can lose, will lose. Thus the impact is greater. Good narrative impact is good writing. Atelier Sakura normally adds a 'good' ending for that reason. They have agency to a small degree. So yes the genre has agency, VNs generally have agency. You said they didn't so I pointed to Atelier Sakura.
The issue about agency in APBLU is in part due to the game not being finished, the games scope, and Harry's writing. He can be soo dumb and the worst(best) times. I think it's fair for the player to get frustrated with Harry if he can't see what they clearly can, that frustration is part of the genre. The picture with the gold chain comes to mind, no way Harry didn't notice that was Laura.
I'm sure Scars of Summer was purpose built from choice of engine to the last line on dialog on the last route. That doesn't mean the lack of a the MC being able to advance his relationship with MH was a good decision. One could argue that some, or all of, the routes are vanilla. Is it a good game? For sure. Lovely artwork, great story within each route, at least the ones I played. My point was that MC not being able to have the MH at all, in any way, dampens the greater story overall and lessens the players agency. Also lessens the MC's agency as well, even if he just there to drive the narrative, didn't he like the girl? Character agency is another matter.
I hope I covered all the questions and points you wanted talked about. It's so late. I hope this helps and I hope you will get that translator, it's free last I saw. It's so easy and it opens so many VNs to you. In case there was any fraction of a doubt I do like APBLU and am enjoying this route.
First of all I disagree wit the "I speak of NTR genre as whole". The NTR games/stories vary in appeal greatly, so much so even multiple sub terms surfaced. Sometimes what one fan likes in his NTR the other NTR fan will hate. I know what kind of NTR I like and I don't think Atelier Sakura is making them - played a number of their games and all tasted the same.
Also I don't like MTL and really don't understand how people can enjoy NTR through machine translation.
Regarding agency - there is landslide difference between netorase and netorare games. In the former d MC allows or even instigates the cucking to happen, he very much so wants to have influence on how it happens, what is ok what is not etc. In the latter it happens against MC will, generally MC being unaware of it happening or being powerless to stop it. One needs agency the other is about being striped of it. It is not ok to bundle them together.
If you can't see how vanilla scenes can take away from the experience - that only shows one thing, that there is such disparity in how people enjoy NTR that fans even can't comprehend all the different ways people consume NTR. I can for sure tell you I don't need vanilla scenes to enjoy netorare.
i also agree atelier sakura games are not very good as ntr.
from my experience, whenever there is ntr content ot feels like it's forced and just added upon their story, for example, mc just screws up by not showing interest in his gf or something like that, unlike harry who tries his hardest.
overall their ntr is not hard ntr from my experience.
i also think there should be vanilla scenes/romance, because that's how the strength of mc and heroine bond is shown, and also how it's shown to be destroyed.
but vanilla ending is not necessary unless a sequel is planned.
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- Oct 17, 2019
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10000000000000000000000000% agree finally someone that says this my exact hope is that the real aya path next year will deliver this
every ntr manga or game i played last month has almost or zero build up MC is already in a realtionship , mc is cheating on his (true ) love and has 3 heroines at the same time and constantly switch his (true) love......
I cant really feel the hurtful emotion of losing someone I (the mc) lose if I have no bonding with that person cuddles ,date with the love of your life under moon light ...... and that the rival should start his twisted plan BUT SLOWLY not instantly it dosent make sens that ture love bends over after 1 min discussion
the ntr authors have almost zero romantic ,passion ,EMOTIONS and all this things that you need
I DONT FEEL ANYTHING with 99% of ntr games and this is the most important part I am supposed to feel something with ntr
hangovercat did mention that it could take some time to develop a proper relationship between aya and harry, the current aya route is just a taste of her.
I think part 2 with aya as main heroine is planned to start in October this year.
- Apr 5, 2022
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he should have abandoned some boring and useless routes and just made Aya's route, that way nowadays he could be more productive in another game, this one is saturated.
I didn't play the abrupt one, but the other 4 endings were all interesting with a different flavor of NTR resolution. So yea, well, that's just like your opinion, man.
Honestly i feel if hangover had gone back and forth between a path on Laura's route then a path on Aya's route it may have been a better strategy. At this point it feels like Laura has become so stale from over exposure and we're destined to end up in the same place with Aya down the road. Things would have felt more fresh if we had gotten both routes instead of a full route then the other.
I was thinking the exact same tbh. It is kind of a concensus thought that we're tired of seeing only Laura at this point and eat up the recent content featuring anyone else but her lol.
We live and we learn tho. Hangover has created a great and engaging story regardless.
- Sep 21, 2018
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I'll just have to disagree with you. I've played many Atelier Sakura games translated and not. I feel like I'm over explaining it, AS games cover a wide scope of the genre, so when referencing Atelier Sakura, I'm referencing a wide scope of this genre. If you don't want to play them for any reason, then you're not going to get the reference. I didn't want to debate your taste in games, maybe expand it, but not this. Yes AS games give some light agency to the player, much like APBLU does. It's not finished yet so people will posted about a lack of it. That was the point of contention.
Player agency as nothing to do with the genre of the game. VNs, that are not nukige, have some tolerances for player agency. Games do that, this game does that. Wither it's Rimworld or APBLU. More agency is better for the player, many cases for characters too, but it comes with development cost.
This was your statement about this genre, for reference. 'Agency is not really for this genre' I disagreed and pointed to Atelier Sakura games. The point was not wether you like AS games, or if you think they are ntr, because they are and are marketed as such. The point was Atelier Sakura releases ntr games with a small degree of player agency, and that direct comparison to APBLU. Also to be fair VNs are about controlling MCs life choices, to a degree, not completely as the writer is telling a story. The extreme example would be the VN Fate/Stay Night. It's legitimate criticism to point out having what feels like a lack of agency. APBLU does offer the player agency, but players will want more always.
IMHO APBLU front loads the choices hard, leaving nothing for the routes, and leaving players unable to modify the routes' outcomes. To modify the game to include that would cost, and its likely way outside the scope of the design doc. Does this make it a bad game? Nope, but it is still a legitimate criticism.
You can enjoy any game however you wish, as you may. However, no ntr VN sex scene can't be made better with story and context. Story in a porn games is generally highlighted with porn, but it doesn't have to be. Again I feel like I'm over explaining it. APBLU does this with Laura and will do it with Aya, already has to a degree with Harry touching Aya's 'larger than average boobs'. Just seeing that vanilla scene lets us know how much Harry means to her, however small it may be (poor wording, sorry Aya, not talking about your boobs). I only wanted to broaden what you thought was the norm (your boobs are larger than normal Aya, holy shit! I'm in trouble) for VNs and the genre in general.
(Aya's plenty, I mean really big boobs, and scene reference)
(She is about to cum with just that, I wonder if Luca would lose to Harry with Aya, so well written)
APBLU far outscopes any Atelier Sakura game I've played by many times. Aya has been an absolute treat to read and surprisingly enough Luca and Laura is this latest route are top of their game. Unlike Atelier Sakura games, not a single line is voiced, but I still enjoy it. Just like you, I can enjoy this game faults and all, any way I wish. I'm even enjoying posting and debating about it with you. Did you try that translator? There are so many Japanese games that never get translated, like this game and not. I stress that because HC, in this thread, mentioned that translator for learning about the genre, and turned me on to it.
Edit: added a comment under the picture of Aya.
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I was talking about netorare there. Normally I use NTR as abbreviation for netorare and since I was referencing APBLU that is netorare game it was the natural usage. Only when you quoted me and brought up Atelier I started considering NTR as broader term.
There are number of games translated with that here, I don't really need to use the software myself. The translation while it does allow you to understand what is happening most of time, it is not enough for netorare. There is certain subtlety in netorare dialogues and that is completely lost through mtl. Also I believe if the games were good they would get translated. How many times I've seen people being hyped for a netorare game finally being translated just to play it and see it is mid at best.
I've already explained my take on agency, I don't want to be going in circles.
PS. Don't read too much into art, the artists has been really doing whatever they please lately with the characters "assets". I guess that is what you get when you accept botched job once.
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- Sep 21, 2018
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Sugoi-Translator-Toolkit-V5.0-Public I think there is 6.0 out now. The offline translator is as good as DeepL, possibly better, but I'm not sure. My Dear Wife, Mariko's Report, is an example of a translated game that is more accurate using Sugoi. I have a post covering that, but I don't think anyone read it. Anyhow the translation made MH act more 'sexy and cute' about her cheating and leading 'play', but in the original Japanese she is far more aggressive and demeaning to the MC, very S to his M. I say 'play' because she will have her side lover's child if the MC where to let it go on for too long, I'm inferring that the story ends before that. The translator group, love em btw, looped the audio from MH's lines. That tipped me off, so I played the raw game and was able to find that out. I don't think I'll be able to convince you to try the translator, that's fine it's not for everyone. I just wanted you to know it's not always true that the eng translation is better and that it works quite well.
I don't like how APBLU art is all over the place, but it's okay enough. Aya's scenes are selling it, and 'some' of Laura's too. The standing art and stills are great. I just love the joke about Aya's 'larger-than-average boobs' complex. Did I mention I was enjoying this route? I'm not reading too much into the art, but I love it when it's good.
Wow Nice game.. Can't wait for the next update 