RPGM A Struggle with Sin [v0.5.8.5b] [Chyos]

[Evangelion-01]

quickly addressing kate, I said in my example that the MC should basically act like a bouncer at a club handling harassment. however if the intimidation fails it leads to a fight. Not some mini-game fight but an actual stat/hp fight. If the MC loses then either Rick or Thomas could step in and save the day winning over influence over Kate. Same act. Win the fight win the girl. First to 20 affection gets her. Also fighting isn't the only way to build affection with her with tipping as well so that may put Thomas at a disadvantage.

So if the MC wins the girl and later wants to pimp her out then sure go for it. I never had a problem with that. Turn her into a stripper, whore, nympho, slut, go for it. She's your girlfriend have fun. However my point was if you lose the fights, lose affection, then why are you making these decisions? why not have Rick be her True love path and Thomas corrupt her and pimp her out? Both are possible NTR failures for you should you fuck up in the beginning of the game. That's my point. Her entire NTR, EVERYTHING, from Thomas, Rick, whoring, dancing, is all in you control from the get-go. why? I'm not looking at it as pandering to a select market or those seeking it out but as motivation to work harder. When I beat Emily's quest in time I was happy that she wasn't forced to whore herself out to that monster. I completely understand that some people would just turn it off and that's an understandable reaction. But I was just voicing my frustrations with so much of the negative NTR punishment being in my control.

Normal fight = armed combat... haveing a drunken fist fight in a bar is one thing but drawing blades to fight for your lives is not gonna be perceived as good. and if you want to especially include a "no weapon" combat for the bar that seems like a whole lot of work... the mini game seems a rather good compromise.
Rick has no real incme as he only receives an allowance from his dad... he only pay 5 coins in order to be a bit impressive with Kate but keeping a reserve to return the next evening... the Player can choose to up him by 2 coins or pay only what he owes (3 coins).
Also Player is not the bouncer... Thomas won't interfere in a drunken fight as that is part of a Taverns charm... until the victor is decided.

That's my point. Her entire NTR, EVERYTHING, from Thomas, Rick, whoring, dancing, is all in you control from the get-go. why?

So it's 100% and easily avoidable for those people that don't share your liberate view or are actually enjoying this kind of content.

Since there is the option at the beginning of the game to turn off NTR completely, there shouldn't be a need to make various NTR routes optional if you allow NTR to be on. Having separate NTR routes optional takes away from the punishment aspect of the NTR. Of course someone who wants NTR can intentionally fail so they can see it. But for players like you and me, who are okay with the NTR because it is used as a consequence of failure, its weird that the NTR is often simply provided as a choice, is it not?

I think the issue is with Players like me that keep NTR activated for the Voyeur scenes and to be motivated to succeed on every mission, but don't want to see the NTR of other characters not haveing a combat or quest based NTR route.
I think Chyos underestimated the NTR faction when introducing the fetish and is now struggling with creating different routes for all characters without creating more seperate content... useing choices in order t tell a single story that can have different outcomes is easier than creting Quests that lead to a certain outcome.
What would be a Quest based solution for Frisha's story for example?
The MC is not confronting Dave directly and Frisha is considering him a plague, so is not listening to his advice...

 

[Erectosaurus]

I was always under the impression that NTR in this game was kind of like bonus content. It's there for those who want it, but it isn't really the main point of the game. And as far as I know, all the NTR routes open up if you as the protagonist actively let them happen, so it's more like a "bad end" to a route imo.

 

[Satyr90]

For two, I'm getting a mixed signal here, because you are expressing that although Tia loves you, she's open to visiting orc camp and does so automatically, but this doesn't have anything to do with losing a fight or failing a quest. Isn't this just you saying you don't care about losing, you are fine with some kind of choice-based approach to NTR? Plus, isn't this basically an option anyway, her visiting the orc camp even though she loves you?

Ok, My main issue with the original post is the one we agree on already (not quoted). This was me extending an olive branch and saying that I'm open to NTR content that has the MC playing a role with choosing. For a hypothetical example of hopeful future NTR content: if the MC (me) wants to go swinging with Tia to an orc camp and she's corrupt enough then she may say yes. We walk to an orc camp and have a scene with several orc's or whatever. upon returning to the village you gain the option to talk about what had happened and if she liked it. Since there was no forced or negative NTR/Cuck this would depend solely on her corruption and desire for sex. If she liked it, then perhaps the MC could set ground rules in the future (like how when your the Chief you can let the Village fuck your wives) so she can either bring up seeing the orcs again or perhaps you could turn on/off automatic trips for her to take to the orc village. like if you don't fuck her for 3 days she disappears for a week at the orc camp. You could either get a message that she's gone when entering the village or it could just happen and you could discovery her at the camp with various flirty, sluty, ect. dialog depending on scenario or corruption.

Again we already agree on the simple "interfere" NTR choice is bullshit, This is me providing an example of an NTR is more context friendly. If the player can win fights and run threw the world like a boss then he should be able to decide if he's open to having an open relationship or swinging or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

Ok, My main issue with the original post is the one we agree on already (not quoted). This was me extending an olive branch and saying that I'm open to NTR content that has the MC playing a role with choosing. For a hypothetical example of hopeful future NTR content: if the MC (me) wants to go swinging with Tia to an orc camp and she's corrupt enough then she may say yes. We walk to an orc camp and have a scene with several orc's or whatever. upon returning to the village you gain the option to talk about what had happened and if she liked it. Since there was no forced or negative NTR/Cuck this would depend solely on her corruption and desire for sex. If she liked it, then perhaps the MC could set ground rules in the future (like how when your the Chief you can let the Village fuck your wives) so she can either bring up seeing the orcs again or perhaps you could turn on/off automatic trips for her to take to the orc village. like if you don't fuck her for 3 days she disappears for a week at the orc camp. You could either get a message that she's gone when entering the village or it could just happen and you could discovery her at the camp with various flirty, sluty, ect. dialog depending on scenario or corruption.

Again we already agree on the simple "interfere" NTR choice is bullshit, This is me providing an example of an NTR is more context friendly. If the player can win fights and run threw the world like a boss then he should be able to decide if he's open to having an open relationship or swinging or whatever you want to call it.

I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like you would still reject NTR as netorare, but accept NTR as netorase as a point of compromise.

 

[Satyr90]

Normal fight = armed combat... haveing a drunken fist fight in a bar is one thing but drawing blades to fight for your lives is not gonna be perceived as good. and if you want to especially include a "no weapon" combat for the bar that seems like a whole lot of work... the mini game seems a rather good compromise.
Rick has no real incme as he only receives an allowance from his dad... he only pay 5 coins in order to be a bit impressive with Kate but keeping a reserve to return the next evening... the Player can choose to up him by 2 coins or pay only what he owes (3 coins).
Also Player is not the bouncer... Thomas won't interfere in a drunken fight as that is part of a Taverns charm... until the victor is decided.


So it's 100% and easily avoidable for those people that don't share your liberate view or are actually enjoying this kind of content.

My whole point in one simple question.... If the NTR in this game is used as a punishment then how is it a punishment when literally every aspect of the NTR in the Kate storyline from Rick, Thomas, whoring, dancing, clothes, EVERYTHING is completely in the MC's control? The two things can't both be true. Either the NTR is a path for people to intentionally choose to take OR it's to be used as a punishment for failing a mission, quest, fight, ect.

I love the NTR used as punishment. I can even love when NTR is even your choice like swinging. However why is punishment NTR my choice? Allowing Rick to fuck kate when she's your girlfriend, ok if your into that then that's great. But if I have to actively work to set them up together... why? It should be a punishment for fucking up.

 

[Trapezio]

I don't understand why F95 people keep arguing over a fucked up Japanese hentai trope.

Most of all, this weird trope has absolutely nothing to do with your Real Life Sexual Experiences in any way, since if you experienced in your everyday life that your woman cucked you, you wouldn't say: "she netorared me, this is outrageous! the Dev shoudn't have put it in the game. I'm gonna stop pledging his Patreon!", at all.
You'd say: "that bitch cucked me. Now I'm gonna get revenge screwing her best friend, damnit...!" Then after she find out you banged her friend, you're going to call your nasty mother-in-law and tell her that you want to reconcile and hope she won't file for divorce since you wanna see your children again.

So, who gives a damn if you see an orc fucking a chick in a fantasy RPG setting.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

I was always under the impression that NTR in this game was kind of like bonus content. It's there for those who want it, but it isn't really the main point of the game. And as far as I know, all the NTR routes open up if you as the protagonist actively let them happen, so it's more like a "bad end" to a route imo.

Here is the relevant quote from the About Chyos section of his Patreon profile:

"Since Netorare concerns some people, here my idea behind it:
In most games when you fail a quest or lose a fight it's game over for you. In this game you can choose before starting if you want to have that game over or instead if you fail have a ntr scene (and continue afterwards). Also even with netorare enabled you will always have the option to avoid it (there is no unavoidable netorare scene)"

So no, it wasn't supposed to be bonus content (although it is telling that the game, as it currently plays out, gave you that impression). Netorare was meant to give an edge to the gameplay for people not normally into NTR, like myself. I admit the concept is intriguing, and if executed as advertised it would make for a better, more interesting game. It's disappointing that it is often used as optional content instead.

Also, I think that last sentence in the quote is a new addition, as I don't see it from when I quoted it before in the discord last month. I suspect Chyos saw the discussion and decided to add that last sentence. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I don't think so.

What would be a Quest based solution for Frisha's story for example?
The MC is not confronting Dave directly and Frisha is considering him a plague, so is not listening to his advice...

Well, when you go to block Frisha from visiting Dave, don't give an option to interfere or don't interfere. Just make it so the MC interferes. Or if you don't block her within a certain time limit, you fail the quest. That's one possibility. I admit there needs to be more considered with that questline, but it's a start.

 

[zARRR]

I don't understand why F95 people keep arguing over a fucked up Japanese hentai trope.

Most of all, this weird trope has absolutely nothing to do with your Real Life Sexual Experiences in any way, since if you experienced in your everyday life that your woman cucked you, you wouldn't say: "she netorared me, this is outrageous! the Dev shoudn't have put it in the game. I'm gonna stop pledging his Patreon!", at all.
You'd say: "that bitch cucked me. Now I'm gonna get revenge screwing her best friend, damnit...!" Then after she find out you banged her friend, you're going to call your nasty mother-in-law and tell her that you want to reconcile and hope she won't file for divorce since you wanna see your children again.

So, who gives a damn if you see an orc fucking a chick in a fantasy RPG setting.

Damn it I lost the discussion about NTR again?
I even got graduated for this

 

[Satyr90]

I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like you would still reject NTR as netorare, but accept NTR as netorase as a point of compromise.

ok, let me be more specific. let's say I lose to a bunch of fights to orcs and lose the respect of Tia. She completely Cucks me. refuses to have sex with me, actively humiliates me, does the whole "oh I still love the MC, but this orc cock is so good." I'M OKAY WITH THAT. Why? because I lost. I deserve it. So long as there is at least hope in the beginning of the game I can turn It around. I wouldn't want to end a game with that ending. I'm not a masochist, I want to win her over but I want the option to fail and witness the fallout.

I'm even ok with it happening in a quest. let's take the Mira update as an example. In the upcoming update the developer said that it's possible to lose her (don't know how). If I made a mistake in the game either by already corrupting her family, or failing a quest, losing a fight, then as a result I lose the girl and have to endure seeing her with another guy will it make me happy. No. Will I accept it yes. In fact I'd like the game more because of it. Because it allowed me to have that failure and see the end result. If the developer introduces a pregnancy system and allows me to see Mira with another man who won her and I get to see them start a family then I'd be pissed at first yeah, but I'd absolutely love the game that much more. However if it's some stupid question like "okay gamer do you want to lose Mira forever or be with her? Make your choice!" I'm going to be very pissed.

 

[Evangelion-01]

My whole point in one simple question.... If the NTR in this game is used as a punishment then how is it a punishment when literally every aspect of the NTR in the Kate storyline from Rick, Thomas, whoring, dancing, clothes, EVERYTHING is completely in the MC's control? The two things can't both be true. Either the NTR is a path for people to intentionally choose to take OR it's to be used as a punishment for failing a mission, quest, fight, ect.

I love the NTR used as punishment. I can even love when NTR is even your choice like swinging. However why is punishment NTR my choice? Allowing Rick to fuck kate when she's your girlfriend, ok if your into that then that's great. But if I have to actively work to set them up together... why? It should be a punishment for fucking up.

I think you oversimplify the work it would require to create such options for EVERY character... I am pretty sure Chyos originally only intended a few Characters to have NTr content based on either Quests or combat... but the fact that each and every character is supposed to have NTR now makes such an approach unattanabel... and more than less interesting for the people that actually try to avoid that content.
From my point of view your approach will turn this game into an NTR focused game rather than a game that has OPTIONALLY NTR content

ok, let me be more specific. let's say I lose to a bunch of fights to orcs and lose the respect of Tia. She completely Cucks me. refuses to have sex with me, actively humiliates me, does the whole "oh I still love the MC, but this orc cock is so good." I'M OKAY WITH THAT. Why? because I lost. I deserve it. So long as there is at least hope in the beginning of the game I can turn It around. I wouldn't want to end a game with that ending. I'm not a masochist, I want to win her over but I want the option to fail and witness the fallout.

I'm even ok with it happening in a quest. let's take the Mira update as an example. In the upcoming update the developer said that it's possible to lose her (don't know how). If I made a mistake in the game either by already corrupting her family, or failing a quest, losing a fight, then as a result I lose the girl and have to endure seeing her with another guy will it make me happy. No. Will I accept it yes. In fact I'd like the game more because of it. Because it allowed me to have that failure and see the end result. If the developer introduces a pregnancy system and allows me to see Mira with another man who won her and I get to see them start a family then I'd be pissed at first yeah, but I'd absolutely love the game that much more. However if it's some stupid question like "okay gamer do you want to lose Mira forever or be with her? Make your choice!" I'm going to be very pissed.

A valid and very liberate way to view this... but sadly you are the minority here... most people would scream and kick, unpledge the game and/or even demand it to be removed from the Forum.
I think Chyos is walking a tight rope and somehow manages to keep the balance which is even more adimireable.

Well, when you go to block Frisha from visiting Dave, don't give an option to interfere or don't interfere. Just make it so the MC interferes. Or if you don't block her within a certain time limit, you fail the quest. That's one possibility. I admit there needs to be more considered with that questline, but it's a start.

Chyos did that at first but moved away from this since it required the Player to be in town at a specific date and time, with the improved daily scedules I am not even sure this Eventing would still work aswell.
Also Frisha hates you from throwing her into the mud rather than appreciate you lloking out for her. The curren Version gives a far better reason and explanation for why Frisha warms up to the MC

 

[Pervy Sensei]

ok, let me be more specific. let's say I lose to a bunch of fights to orcs and lose the respect of Tia. She completely Cucks me. refuses to have sex with me, actively humiliates me, does the whole "oh I still love the MC, but this orc cock is so good." I'M OKAY WITH THAT. Why? because I lost. I deserve it. So long as there is at least hope in the beginning of the game I can turn It around. I wouldn't want to end a game with that ending. I'm not a masochist, I want to win her over but I want the option to fail and witness the fallout.

I'm even ok with it happening in a quest. let's take the Mira update as an example. In the upcoming update the developer said that it's possible to lose her (don't know how). If I made a mistake in the game either by already corrupting her family, or failing a quest, losing a fight, then as a result I lose the girl and have to endure seeing her with another guy will it make me happy. No. Will I accept it yes. In fact I'd like the game more because of it. Because it allowed me to have that failure and see the end result. If the developer introduces a pregnancy system and allows me to see Mira with another man who won her and I get to see them start a family then I'd be pissed at first yeah, but I'd absolutely love the game that much more. However if it's some stupid question like "okay gamer do you want to lose Mira forever or be with her? Make your choice!" I'm going to be very pissed.

Okay, so netorase and netorare are okay, as long as the netorare is punishment for failure? Well, I'm not much a fan of netorase, but it does make sense it would be optional content, and I guess I can live with just choosing against it whenever the option comes up.

 

[Satyr90]

I think you oversimplify the work it would require to create such options for EVERY character... I am pretty sure Chyos originally only intended a few Characters to have NTr content based on either Quests or combat... but the fact that each and every character is supposed to have NTR now makes such an approach unattanabel... and more than less interesting for the people that actually try to avoid that content.
From my point of view your approach will turn this game into an NTR focused game rather than a game that has OPTIONALLY NTR content

I tried to express gratitude in the original post. I LOVE THIS GAME. 5/5. I'm not a programmer and I've stated this repeatedly. I was just ranting to myself frustrated with this one specific issue with the game. Not all the NTR just how some of the punishment NTR was solely in the players control. And wanted to express a desire to see the NTR more contextualized, for lack of a better word. I want the punishment NTR to be a punishment.

 

[Evangelion-01]

I tried to express gratitude in the original post. I LOVE THIS GAME. 5/5. I'm not a programmer and I've stated this repeatedly. I was just ranting to myself frustrated with this one specific issue with the game. Not all the NTR just how some of the punishment NTR was solely in the players control. And wanted to express a desire to see the NTR more contextualized, for lack of a better word. I want the punishment NTR to be a punishment.

I can see that but I am trying to say that people already find this forced NTR on sepcial occassions to much... improving this content will shift the balance of the game and I am pretty sure that will hurt Chyos in the long run.
I don't think there is a perfect way to balance all of these interest so compromises needs to be made... and Chyos seem to have found quiet an interesting one wihout focing the matter or disrespect any of his supporters

 

[Satyr90]

Okay, so netorase and netorare are okay, as long as the netorare is punishment for failure? Well, I'm not much a fan of netorase, but it does make sense it would be optional content, and I guess I can live with just choosing against it whenever the option comes up.

I'm not too familiar with the specific definitions but I would like the NTR used properly so to speak. I'm ok with swinging, or open relationship as long as the girl is corrupted and she's already yours then go for it. Hell, you could give players the option to set up auto scenes like every three days or every Saturday or whatever (not a programmer just fantasizing) If your dating Kate and want to whore her out and treat her like a slut go for it. However I also want the option if I get my ass kicked and my girl stolen then let me live with it. let me see them happy ever after getting knocked up having kids, ect. If I lose Tia to a tribe of orcs because I cant win any fights then so be it. If Mira thinks I'm the Devil because I've corrupted her family and runs off with another man then let me live with the consequences. Don't have some bullshit yes or no decision for the girl like in Frisha.

 

[Satyr90]

I can see that but I am trying to say that people already find this forced NTR on sepcial occassions to much... improving this content will shift the balance of the game and I am pretty sure that will hurt Chyos in the long run.
I don't think there is a perfect way to balance all of these interest so compromises needs to be made... and Chyos seem to have found quiet an interesting one wihout focing the matter or disrespect any of his supporters

If it's an issue then either turn it off or find a way to separate it with a tag or something (again not a programmer). Like at the start of the game "hey, Do you want to enable Punishment (forced for failure) NTR content?" You had to answer a question like that in the game in the beginning to enable ALL NTR content. Now all you have to to is categorize it into forced and not force based on the story and scenario.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

I don't understand why F95 people keep arguing over a fucked up Japanese hentai trope.

We aren't arguing over the meaning of NTR, just its execution in the game; so not the usual argument, I think.

Most of all, this weird trope has absolutely nothing to do with your Real Life Sexual Experiences in any way, since if you experienced in your everyday life that your woman cucked you, you wouldn't say: "she netorared me, this is outrageous! the Dev shoudn't have put it in the game. I'm gonna stop pledging his Patreon!", at all.

Most of the games on F95 don't have to do with anyone's real life sexual experiences, so that isn't saying much.

I pledge quite a bit to the dev, so it's not about pledging or not, it's just about a critique of how the execution of the game fails to live up to the design. I'd just like to see the game be even better than it is. But of course I am a huge fan, of both the game and the dev, nonetheless.

 

[Pervy Sensei]

I'm not too familiar with the specific definitions but I would like the NTR used properly so to speak.

Netorase is basically netorare, except that the MC is okay with it or even encourages it.

 

[Evangelion-01]

If it's an issue then either turn it off or find a way to separate it with a tag or something (again not a programmer). Like at the start of the game "hey, Do you want to enable Punishment (forced for failure) NTR content?" You had to answer a question like that in the game in the beginning to enable ALL NTR content. Now all you have to to is categorize it into forced and not force based on the story and scenario.

The point is that your point of view is close to a singularity... definately a minority... changeing the game to better fit your tastes will take quiet a while in which no other content can be created... given that the majority of the people either want to see "no NTR" or "NTR only" the development is moveing further away from a middle path you hope to see... and the longer the game follows those courses the harder it will become to create a well balanced middle path.
Again I am aware that you don't want to force this change or even make it the reason for your pledge... but I kinda fail make it any clearer

 

[Pervy Sensei]

Chyos did that at first but moved away from this since it required the Player to be in town at a specific date and time, with the improved daily scedules I am not even sure this Eventing would still work aswell.
Also Frisha hates you from throwing her into the mud rather than appreciate you lloking out for her. The curren Version gives a far better reason and explanation for why Frisha warms up to the MC

If the quest log indicated the relevant time and dates, maybe it would have been easier. Also how else to fail a quest like that? It makes sense to fail it that way by missing the time and dates.

I don't recall the change in Frisha's questline, so I don't have anything to say to that. Last I recalled is that interfering did cause her to go into the mud, but it's been awhile since I played.

Also, with reference to other comments you have been making, I'm not so sure a change in the NTR back to its game design will lead to an overwhelming exodus of patron support. There are plenty of patrons on the discord who are vocally not into the NTR, and a lot of the NTR folks are happy so long as there is a way to get to the content they want. The first group can choose the no NTR option when starting the game, the second group can purposely fail quests. It's not hard.

Maybe coming up with valid NTR options for each character according to the punishment design is challenging, but not impossible, and if taken slowly and presented one by one as part of each new option added to the content poll, it should surely be doable.

 

[Evangelion-01]

I don't recall the change in Frisha's questline, so I don't have anything to say to that. Last I recalled is that interfering did cause her to go into the mud, but it's been awhile since I played.

Originally you were supposed to stop her from seeing Dave by throwing her in the mud, maybe Chyos original plan was that after a set amount of missed dates he'd call her a lier and stop inviting her... but again Frisha would hate you even more for that, since she WANTS to be with Dave in order to have an easy live.
currently stopping her by sending her into the mud is an option if you can't enter the major's house any otherway or lack the Traits to advance (like Perception>=1), but it won't advance her story only postpone it for a week