Poser_Voyeur

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Nov 14, 2020
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12 hours ago I would have agreed with you. But now I don't think there's anything more than a vague outline for each scene and update. Exploding upwards of 650 renders is beyond just a lack of discipline, it's indicative of someone that doesn't know what they're doing. He's lost the forest through the trees. He's spending 30 minutes on lighting for a single render and not spending any time looking at the bigger picture.

KillJoys what is the reaction over at Patreon?
I did nt reply initially when I saw that Patreon post from L&P, as I did nt want to be too rash into making a judgement.....

Many of us are fans of the game for a variety of reason. For myself at least the reasons include in no particular order: the beautiful renders of some stunning girls, the attempt (whether successful or not) at realism or at the very least believability within the confines of an adult VN, the aim at telling an erotic story rather a meaningless fuckfest, and above else, Soiphia as a goddess. I love women with natural curves and Sophia certainly started that way, even if she has got a touch cartoonish in some recent updates. I love her interest in both arts and science, sport and music. She is smart, intelligent, a caring mother a great balance between career and family. In short the woman of my dreams.

Now we have seen before that L&P will use excessive number of renders - there is no harm in having the occasional large text box over a primarily black background if it conveys essential storypoints in a more efficient manner than having each line of thought or dialogue each having their own distinct render. There is no harm in occasionally reusing renders, especially if a conversation between two people who have nt moved. We dont need EVERY thought separately rendered. The point I that we love L&P's rendering style, but that sometimes, less is truly more, and in this case L&P would be bettr shaving off 10% - 20% of his renders. I mean if an update could have had 650 renders, then if you shaved of 20% = 130 renders, that would still leave 520 renders to tell that storyline.

And we have said before that L&P spends a lot of time customising each render. This shows up in the quality of his work. From the beautiful lighting effects to the variety of facial expressions are a big part of why his renders are so beautiful. But the revelation L&P could spend up to 30 minutes tweaking a single render to get it "just right" goes beyond the search to provide a quality product. It is the quest for limitless perfection taken to insane extremes.

We have said before L&P has spent a lot of time building up the portfolio of characters that we have in the VN. And that is great in terms of adding realism as compared to some VN's with maybe 6-8 characters in total. It does make the VN world feel believable, But already we have seen the quantity of side characters grow to unrealistic levels. Did we NEED to give the choice between two side jobs, neither of which seems likely to get anywhere any time soon. And yes I know L&P said a "hot" scene was coing up in the second side job. Yet I remain unconvinced that we will look at it afterwards as a worthwhile step in the corruption of Sophia to get to the Promised Land i.e. Sophia actually having sex with someone not called Liam. And what was the point of the postman or the jaitor or even Mr Bennet if they don't pay off in a concrete way in the near future. The point is we could have saved a little bit of time with some of these superfluous secondary characters., and that could have a few more unnecessary renders over the last few updates.

Then we come to the number of different routes. Anything more than 3-4 routs is unnecessarily complex. We should have had Goodwife Route, Lesbian Route, Filthy Route, and maybe one route without incest. I am not clear how many routes we have but it feels far more than that. I mean we are going to have Sophia helping Cathy choosing a wedding dress in the next update and most of us had forgotten who the hell Cathy was, having been in one scene way back on Day Two. That means we no doubt have the Stag and Hen parties both coming up soon. Both probably giving further5 routes and options to choose. Some people hate Kinetic novels where there is NO choice but L&P has gone to the opposite extreme with seemingly limitless options, each of which requires more time coding, and you guessed it, yet MORE renders.....

Now a Development TEAM could have probably coped with such an ambitious project. Maybe one person specialising in Renders, another in scripting the dialogue and storyline, and yet another specialising in coding. Because this what many Game Developers do in practice. Some even have offices after thy have got established with a track record of delivering product to their Patreon subscribers. But even if each of them is working separately in their on study /spare room etc they could work as a Team. Now I understand that being Creative is a difficult process, and that it can be hard in getting people doing what you need / want. But circling back to the insane quest for perfection, it seems that L&P is too stubborn and pedantic to consider sharing the workload, and thus delivering product more often, and thus attracting more Patreons, and thus receiving more monetary rewards.....

The point is that L&P COULD do some or all of the above. He COULD share the workload, getting some help in the areas that he felt least comfortable with, whether as a partnership sharing risks and rewards, or employing someone as an employee. or even just as a consultant on a pay-on-delivery basis. He COULD trim a few unnecessary renders, cutting down in corridor shots, reusing some renders or black screens for conversation, cutting down internal monologues. He COULD limit his search for perfection and only spend 10-15 minutes tinkering on a single render rather than 30 minutes. He COULD stop introducing new characters, get rid of superfluous characters, start simplifying the myriad story routes, and thus save on time for coding and renders.

But will he heck.....

Luckily I have found a few other games / VN, which even though they are not as perfect as AWAM could be, are entertaining enough to cover the long gap between AWAM updates.

And my naïve, optimistic side can yet believe that L&P see some reason and consider doing even a couple of those things that have suggested that he could do to produce AWAM in a more efficient manner.....
 

Poser_Voyeur

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Nov 14, 2020
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Apologies for the length of the previous post. I was trying very, very hard to avoid ranting. But as this is a VN that I have card about, it was struggle to keep it as calm and rational as possible.....
 
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Kal-El_25

Member
Jul 28, 2018
144
127
This has been said by some, I know. The game is good, but I really don't understand all the support and money he gets. To me he just makes a lot of excuses.

When you see a great game like Being a Dik, which has a good story, great renders, in game activities, etc. It doesn't make sense to me why he keeps getting away with this. To each their own. I used to support his game with my money but I stopped a while ago. Could not justify it. Started supporting other developers.
 

Alley_Cat

Devoted Member
Jul 20, 2019
8,744
17,103
I did nt reply initially when I saw that Patreon post from L&P, as I did nt want to be too rash into making a judgement.....

Many of us are fans of the game for a variety of reason. For myself at least the reasons include in no particular order: the beautiful renders of some stunning girls, the attempt (whether successful or not) at realism or at the very least believability within the confines of an adult VN, the aim at telling an erotic story rather a meaningless fuckfest, and above else, Soiphia as a goddess. I love women with natural curves and Sophia certainly started that way, even if she has got a touch cartoonish in some recent updates. I love her interest in both arts and science, sport and music. She is smart, intelligent, a caring mother a great balance between career and family. In short the woman of my dreams.

Now we have seen before that L&P will use excessive number of renders - there is no harm in having the occasional large text box over a primarily black background if it conveys essential storypoints in a more efficient manner than having each line of thought or dialogue each having their own distinct render. There is no harm in occasionally reusing renders, especially if a conversation between two people who have nt moved. We dont need EVERY thought separately rendered. The point I that we love L&P's rendering style, but that sometimes, less is truly more, and in this case L&P would be bettr shaving off 10% - 20% of his renders. I mean if an update could have had 650 renders, then if you shaved of 20% = 130 renders, that would still leave 520 renders to tell that storyline.

And we have said before that L&P spends a lot of time customising each render. This shows up in the quality of his work. From the beautiful lighting effects to the variety of facial expressions are a big part of why his renders are so beautiful. But the revelation L&P could spend up to 30 minutes tweaking a single render to get it "just right" goes beyond the search to provide a quality product. It is the quest for limitless perfection taken to insane extremes.

We have said before L&P has spent a lot of time building up the portfolio of characters that we have in the VN. And that is great in terms of adding realism as compared to some VN's with maybe 6-8 characters in total. It does make the VN world feel believable, But already we have seen the quantity of side characters grow to unrealistic levels. Did we NEED to give the choice between two side jobs, neither of which seems likely to get anywhere any time soon. And yes I know L&P said a "hot" scene was coing up in the second side job. Yet I remain unconvinced that we will look at it afterwards as a worthwhile step in the corruption of Sophia to get to the Promised Land i.e. Sophia actually having sex with someone not called Liam. And what was the point of the postman or the jaitor or even Mr Bennet if they don't pay off in a concrete way in the near future. The point is we could have saved a little bit of time with some of these superfluous secondary characters., and that could have a few more unnecessary renders over the last few updates.

Then we come to the number of different routes. Anything more than 3-4 routs is unnecessarily complex. We should have had Goodwife Route, Lesbian Route, Filthy Route, and maybe one route without incest. I am not clear how many routes we have but it feels far more than that. I mean we are going to have Sophia helping Cathy choosing a wedding dress in the next update and most of us had forgotten who the hell Cathy was, having been in one scene way back on Day Two. That means we no doubt have the Stag and Hen parties both coming up soon. Both probably giving further5 routes and options to choose. Some people hate Kinetic novels where there is NO choice but L&P has gone to the opposite extreme with seemingly limitless options, each of which requires more time coding, and you guessed it, yet MORE renders.....

Now a Development TEAM could have probably coped with such an ambitious project. Maybe one person specialising in Renders, another in scripting the dialogue and storyline, and yet another specialising in coding. Because this what many Game Developers do in practice. Some even have offices after thy have got established with a track record of delivering product to their Patreon subscribers. But even if each of them is working separately in their on study /spare room etc they could work as a Team. Now I understand that being Creative is a difficult process, and that it can be hard in getting people doing what you need / want. But circling back to the insane quest for perfection, it seems that L&P is too stubborn and pedantic to consider sharing the workload, and thus delivering product more often, and thus attracting more Patreons, and thus receiving more monetary rewards.....

The point is that L&P COULD do some or all of the above. He COULD share the workload, getting some help in the areas that he felt least comfortable with, whether as a partnership sharing risks and rewards, or employing someone as an employee. or even just as a consultant on a pay-on-delivery basis. He COULD trim a few unnecessary renders, cutting down in corridor shots, reusing some renders or black screens for conversation, cutting down internal monologues. He COULD limit his search for perfection and only spend 10-15 minutes tinkering on a single render rather than 30 minutes. He COULD stop introducing new characters, get rid of superfluous characters, start simplifying the myriad story routes, and thus save on time for coding and renders.

But will he heck.....

Luckily I have found a few other games / VN, which even though they are not as perfect as AWAM could be, are entertaining enough to cover the long gap between AWAM updates.

And my naïve, optimistic side can yet believe that L&P see some reason and consider doing even a couple of those things that have suggested that he could do to produce AWAM in a more efficient manner.....
I count 64 separate characters. Dylan route with 3 LIs, Ellie route with 3 as well, and Sam route.

Would you mean the GW route, Dylan route (Filthy incest route), Ellie/Patricia (Lesbian route) and Sam route (Filthy, non-incest)?
 
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Old Dog

Message Maven
Donor
Jul 20, 2017
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You said it all. I think today is probably the most frustrating day I've had as a fan of AWAM. L&P's acting like his update was full of GOOD news, was astounding. He acts as though we should celebrate his news today, when in fact it's not what many of us wanted or expected.
The news today is about as much use to us as a cat flap would be on a submarine
 

Poser_Voyeur

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Nov 14, 2020
1,223
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I count 64 separate characters. Dylan route with 3 LIs, Ellie route with 3 as well, and Sam route.

Would you mean the GW route, Dylan route (Filthy incest route), Ellie/Patricia (Lesbian route) and Sam route (Filthy, non-incest)?
Yeah - that's the sort of thing I was getting at. Four of five options rather than the multitude we have gotten so far / are likely to get in the near future.
e.g. you could easily get a fifth route by splitting Lesbian into incest / non-incest.
 
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ancienregimele

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Sep 27, 2017
1,925
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as much use as a handbrake on a canoe
It's interesting that many of us are reaching, or have reached the conclusion that L&P needs an editor. Previously I've said that the editor needs to be someone completely neutral & objective, which ideally they do. This would preclude the likes of us fans, with our different likes, dislikes, hang-ups & favourites.

Now, I've got the perhaps daft idea that if fans took turns editing there wouldn't be such a subjective approach & different POVs might cancel each other out. I'm just thrashing around, trying to come up with something that moves this forward, because like many here present I'm beginning to get those "Abandoned" chills.
 
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Alley_Cat

Devoted Member
Jul 20, 2019
8,744
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You said it all. I think today is probably the most frustrating day I've had as a fan of AWAM. L&P's acting like his update was full of GOOD news, was astounding. He acts as though we should celebrate his news today, when in fact it's not what many of us wanted or expected.
I'm keeping an eye on the Graphtreon analysis of his Patreon numbers. Apart from the usual rise and fall, the news hasn't damaged his numbers, but it probably wont for a number of days.

Yeah - that's the sort of thing I was getting at. Four of five options rather than the multitude we have gotten so far / are likely to get in the near future.
e.g. you could easily get a fifth route by splitting Lesbian into incest / non-incest.
If there were more characters available on the Lesbian route, perhaps. If Alyssa, Emma, Vicky were still available for example. But at the moment it's just Nathalie, and I suspect even if we don't meet her boyfriend, we may need to share her with Liam anyway as part of the GW Threesome.
 
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Old Dog

Message Maven
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Jul 20, 2017
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Yeah - that's the sort of thing I was getting at. Four of five options rather than the multitude we have gotten so far / are likely to get in the near future.
e.g. you could easily get a fifth route by splitting Lesbian into incest / non-incest.
Right my rant is over and I am going back to fiddling with Alyssa/Sophia and before you ask NO you cannot join in.
You want to save renders?Buy Dylan a fleshlight
 
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Poser_Voyeur

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Nov 14, 2020
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You said it all. I think today is probably the most frustrating day I've had as a fan of AWAM. L&P's acting like his update was full of GOOD news, was astounding. He acts as though we should celebrate his news today, when in fact it's not what many of us wanted or expected.
Exactly. It was as almost he selected the precise words that would wind up what I imagine are probably among the more pro-L&P pro-AWAM fans on this site. Now I realise that, speaking personally, as a non-Patreon supporter that my votes count for precisely zero.
But I can't imagine that any but his most ardent, blinkered Patreon would have been happy to read his update.

One of my bosses uses a particular choice example of "Manager Speak" when he goes on about "The Direction of Travel".
And applying that phrase to AWAM, we could understand when L&P had problems with new Daz updates, as to be honest, almost every Dec team did to a greater or lesser extent. And we could understand that when he tried to update his computer kit, he had some problems with those - graphics cards IIRC.
And if he had finished the update a few days late because he had got lost in the creative and the evolving storyline had resulted in say 50 more renders than planned to tell the storyline.

But the sheer number of extra renders he has done for what will still be a sex-free update and the stat about spending 30 minutes to tweak the settings on a single render just shows h is vanishing up his own backside in his ceaseless quest for never ending perfection. It is truly insane and it sounds that he would not listen to reason even if expressed in rational discourse from his Patreon supporters.....

:(
 

Alley_Cat

Devoted Member
Jul 20, 2019
8,744
17,103
Exactly. It was as almost he selected the precise words that would wind up what I imagine are probably among the more pro-L&P pro-AWAM fans on this site. Now I realise that, speaking personally, as a non-Patreon supporter that my votes count for precisely zero.
But I can't imagine that any but his most ardent, blinkered Patreon would have been happy to read his update.

One of my bosses uses a particular choice example of "Manager Speak" when he goes on about "The Direction of Travel".
And applying that phrase to AWAM, we could understand when L&P had problems with new Daz updates, as to be honest, almost every Dec team did to a greater or lesser extent. And we could understand that when he tried to update his computer kit, he had some problems with those - graphics cards IIRC.
And if he had finished the update a few days late because he had got lost in the creative and the evolving storyline had resulted in say 50 more renders than planned to tell the storyline.

But the sheer number of extra renders he has done for what will still be a sex-free update and the stat about spending 30 minutes to tweak the settings on a single render just shows h is vanishing up his own backside in his ceaseless quest for never ending perfection. It is truly insane and it sounds that he would not listen to reason even if expressed in rational discourse from his Patreon supporters.....

:(
I believe the 400 render estimate even included a 10% buffer (so 40 renders, not 50), in case he went over what he thought he needed.
 
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Poser_Voyeur

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Nov 14, 2020
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I'm keeping an eye on the Graphtreon analysis of his Patreon numbers. Apart from the usual rise and fall, the news hasn't damaged his numbers, but it probably wont for a number of days.


If there were more characters available on the Lesbian route, perhaps. If Alyssa, Emma, Vicky were still available for example. But at the moment it's just Nathalie, and I suspect even if we don't meet her boyfriend, we may need to share her with Liam anyway as part of the GW Threesome.
I mean if we just consider female characters we have already met, in no particular order:
Ellie, Patricia, Alyssa, Julia, Amber, Nathalie, Vicky, Claire. Marie, Cathy, and if you include Emma and Cathy's sister, that would give you a dozen options.
But even if say Nathalie and Vicky appeared on both the GoodWife Route as swingers with their boyfriends, they could still easily be include in one or other of the two Lesbian routes that we discussed.

PS: by Claire and Marie, I meant the hairdresser and her daughter that came along to Yoga (in case I misremembered their names)
 

BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2017
1,361
6,174
Its your fault that I joined the dark side,now all is lost,just don't say that you are my father ok:ROFLMAO:
We're going from 3 updates per year (of half a day ingame) to 3 updates per year (of a third of a day).

Basically he has much better hardware now, which suposedly would help him but we now get less half a day for the same amount of time.
Impossible to defend this. This will eventually move to half a day per year and then abandoned.
 

Alley_Cat

Devoted Member
Jul 20, 2019
8,744
17,103
I mean if we just consider female characters we have already met, in no particular order:
Ellie, Patricia, Alyssa, Julia, Amber, Nathalie, Vicky, Claire. Marie, Cathy, and if you include Emma and Cathy's sister, that would give you a dozen options.
But even if say Nathalie and Vicky appeared on both the GoodWife Route as swingers with their boyfriends, they could still easily be include in one or other of the two Lesbian routes that we discussed.

PS: by Claire and Marie, I meant the hairdresser and her daughter that came along to Yoga (in case I misremembered their names)
Plus Ellie's dance friends - Christine, Melanie and Elena. There's meant to be a dance performance at the Community Centre soon, but no indication yet it will actually be in game. And Elena is one of only two characters in the game that is actually lesbian and not bi.
 
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