Ren'Py Abandoned Apartment #69 [v0.07] [Luxee]

[Corambis]

Yes and no, I'd say. There's a very good chunk of it that's tied to hope. When someone is that deep in a hole of despair and you give them hope (in this case, the suport and acceptance of someone who loves -not talking romantic way, just a human way- her for who she feels she is rather than who she was born as), even the idea of loosing that tiny piece of hope can do insanely brutal things to the mental state of the person. In that case yes, there's a crapton of issues already there, but when she starts thinking that her inability to control herself led to her loosing the one good thing she finally had in her life (because remember, the MC litteraly left without much of a word, which, unsurprisingly she took as him running away from her in disgust, after all she already lived that at least once), that's unsurprisingly sends her fears spiraling out of control. Oftentimes, suicidal persons don't need a huge horrible event to snap like movies and shows make it out to be. It's issues piling up over time that get set off bit a seemingly tiny, inconsequential event. But for someone that deep in despair, there's nothing "tiny and unconsequential".
So I don't even think it has anything to do with gender at this point. It's just her fears finally winning over the rest because she has no way at all of knowing why the MC left like that, and has nothing to tell her it's not what she fears. And in her state, you can't expect her to be rational and decide to wait to have a conversation.

If there had to be suicide, it probably should have been linked to gender though, or the transgender experience a bit more. A very crude analogy is if you're friends with someone with cancer. You know they may not make it. You're doing everything you can to help them. Then you're late to pick them up from chemo one day through no fault of your own, so they start walking and get hit by a bus.

It's out of nowhere. Yes, you were prepared for them maybe dying, but they had been making progress, and this was only loosely related to the cancer. If done right, it can just be a statement that the world is a brutal place, or an attempt at irony. But I don't think that applies to this game. It's just that this is a way of describing the feeling the Nea's death gives me. It's not related to their entire backstory in a 100% direct manner. They end up dying because of something happening outside the player's control. It doesn't make sense not just if looked at within the game world, but also when looking outside from our perspective.

And I'll go back again to the idea that I don't think Nea would react well to the MC having other love interests. I hope to God we don't get a "I'm okay with sharing" scene with her. That's okay for some games, but not this one, at least for Nea. Nea's path has a different vibe than a harem game. She wants love, and not some submissive cult-like "we all submit to your cock" thing. Which is great fun in some other games. I can see it for the other love interests in this game. I just can't reconcile it with Nea. So when it does come up that the MC has other love interests, I see that being an even bigger issue than the scene in question here.

Yeah.
Though, seeing how this topic actually evolved (contrary to what a certain person likes to pretend) and reflexions on the matter got deeper and more detailed, it does feel a little bit less "out of nowhere". The main issue though is that it's not spelled out, and you can easily see in this thread the amount of time it took us to come to the point of considering the long lasting effect of her life of abuse...
So either it needs to be rewritten, of maybe spelled out a bit more in game as to avoid looking like it goes from 0 to 100 for no reason if people have a hard time(or are unwilling) to think long and hard about it...

I think a few tweaks could make a world of difference. Add in a few more choices or just reword stuff. There's so many ways to do it where Nea doesn't have to die unless the player chooses an actual bad option. I don't think too many people would be upset, even Luxee unless Nea's suicide like that was his unshakable vision for the friendship path. But if players like me got their friendship path, or at least Nea exiting it in a less tragic way, there's be an awful lot of happy people.

Honestly, if the friendship path was about Nea getting out of her house, and maybe getting some therapy, as I mentioned long ago it would be interesting to introduce a romance path further down the line there. The more I get to know Nea, the more I may see beyond the body and to the girl inside. Maybe despite my aversion to penises that are not my own, my love at Nea at that time would make that seem silly. That was maybe Luxee's intention, but if so he's been trying to force it. Plus later in the game after she'd gotten some help I wouldn't feel like "I'm taking advantage of this girl desperate for love and acceptance and basically in a very fragile place right now."

As always, a good debate. I'm getting better at seeing your viewpoint, but there's also obviously some of the same going on for you. Maybe if we can continue to find common ground we can 1) help end the ongoing debates and 2) show Luxee that there is support for changing things, even if we realize that ultimately it's his call.

 

[Rutonat]

If there had to be suicide, it probably should have been linked to gender though, or the transgender experience a bit more. A very crude analogy is if you're friends with someone with cancer. You know they may not make it. You're doing everything you can to help them. Then you're late to pick them up from chemo one day through no fault of your own, so they start walking and get hit by a bus.

It's out of nowhere. Yes, you were prepared for them maybe dying, but they had been making progress, and this was only loosely related to the cancer. If done right, it can just be a statement that the world is a brutal place, or an attempt at irony. But I don't think that applies to this game. It's just that this is a way of describing the feeling the Nea's death gives me. It's not related to their entire backstory in a 100% direct manner. They end up dying because of something happening outside the player's control. It doesn't make sense not just if looked at within the game world, but also when looking outside from our perspective.

The issue there is, as you phrase it, if the suicide was directly related to her being trans, that would have made the message be "Being trans is a bad thing because being trans makes you commit suicide". Which is not the case. And, instead of depicting something any amount of accurate, it would have been fuel for transphobes to "prove they're right". It would have given them the argument of "if Noah never transitionned, he would have been happy and had a great life". Which is not the case, because people don't transition on a whim.
But either way, the way the game is right now, it's pretty hard to get the why until you spent a good long while thinking about it and discussing it, like we did on this thread.
But making it a bus like you said wouldn't be a suicide, it would be an accident. Imagine for a second the change. The scene plays out the same, the MC happens to see Nea, leaves to think, she goes out to find him and gets hit by a bus, end of route. That feels pretty stupid and random, in my opinion. Even moreso than the suicide which (albeit taking too much reflexion, I'll admit) makes some sort of sense even if handled poorly from a storytelling standpoint. Because it feels like it could have happened even if Nea had been the happiest girl of the game. There's no logic behind it, just "woops I guess I killed one of the LIs lmao" from Luxee, and for absolutely no reason, from a storytelling standpoint.

And I'll go back again to the idea that I don't think Nea would react well to the MC having other love interests. I hope to God we don't get a "I'm okay with sharing" scene with her. That's okay for some games, but not this one, at least for Nea. Nea's path has a different vibe than a harem game. She wants love, and not some submissive cult-like "we all submit to your cock" thing. Which is great fun in some other games. I can see it for the other love interests in this game. I just can't reconcile it with Nea. So when it does come up that the MC has other love interests, I see that being an even bigger issue than the scene in question here.

Well the thing is, so far I don't think we've seen much interaction between the different girls on that front, did we ? The game is still too early for talks of harem ending (in game) to be happening. But I actually wouldn't be surprise if, given some time in the Romance Nea route, the MC manages to get her to accept that, just like she's a trans woman and therefore unusual, he's polyamorous, which is just as unusual. Doesn't mean he's using her, he's just capable of loving multiple women at the same time without picking favorites. Though that's just my theorizing on where Luxee could go with this. Anyway, I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is, but clearly it's nowhere near in sight for Nea yet.

I think a few tweaks could make a world of difference. Add in a few more choices or just reword stuff. There's so many ways to do it where Nea doesn't have to die unless the player chooses an actual bad option. I don't think too many people would be upset, even Luxee unless Nea's suicide like that was his unshakable vision for the friendship path. But if players like me got their friendship path, or at least Nea exiting it in a less tragic way, there's be an awful lot of happy people.

I think Luxee was trying to make Nea's story a more tragic one, honestly. Even independently from the overreaction to the transphobic reactions to her and all of that (we discussed it enough already and there's no proof, just gut feeling).
Though, I do agree that there's improvment, I don't think the core is necessarily at fault. I mean, I hate the fact that she's drove to a suicide attempt, don't get me wrong, but as far as it goes, personally, it got me even more invested in improving her life. Seeing her pushed that far was horrible yes, but also worked in making me care even more about the character. Which is what a good story should do, since Luxee is making a story, not a smutty romp simulator.
Plus, it kinda reminds me of what happens in PL with the younger daughter and the guy who tries to force himself with her. Is it a good thing to happen on a human standpoint ? Fuck no. The guy tries to blackmail his way into her panties. But is it a good storytelling device to had a bit of drama to be defused to up the stakes and get the player to care more about a character ? Well yeah, it works, so long as the player doesn't hate the character to begin with (and Luxee should look to please those who likes their game anyway, not those who hate it).

Honestly, if the friendship path was about Nea getting out of her house, and maybe getting some therapy, as I mentioned long ago it would be interesting to introduce a romance path further down the line there. The more I get to know Nea, the more I may see beyond the body and to the girl inside. Maybe despite my aversion to penises that are not my own, my love at Nea at that time would make that seem silly. That was maybe Luxee's intention, but if so he's been trying to force it. Plus later in the game after she'd gotten some help I wouldn't feel like "I'm taking advantage of this girl desperate for love and acceptance and basically in a very fragile place right now."

Well, the thing is, it seems fucked up and a bit "taking advantage of" in hindsight. And you know the saying : hindsight is always 20/20. Because, before the suicide attempt, when the cute scenes happen, you really don't get that feeling. It feels more like she's getting some reprive (did I write that right ?) from her usual shit life and has genuinely a good time. It's really cute, actually. It's a bit weird because it's mainly the last parts of her current route that muddle things up. Up until that point, it really doesn't feel like t he MC is taking advantage of anything, just that he's giving her a good time.
As for the friendship route, one can only hope Luxee will go back and add/fix things up. As someone who's pretty happy with the romance route, I don't have the same viewpoint as you, but I do understand that the fact it's love or stop can be frustrating. Though I have a hard time viewing things from a perspective less open-minded than my own. Human nature isn't exactly helping us do that, be it seeing stuff with either more or less limitations (and no I'm not saying "less open-minded" in a bad way, more like... huh... "different limits" ? I have a hard time putting it into better words).

As always, a good debate. I'm getting better at seeing your viewpoint, but there's also obviously some of the same going on for you. Maybe if we can continue to find common ground we can 1) help end the ongoing debates and 2) show Luxee that there is support for changing things, even if we realize that ultimately it's his call.

Sadly, Luxee doesn't come around here anymore, apparently, so unless someone ends up synthesizing the whole thing for them, I doubt it'll ever reach them (ho and yes I keep saying "them" because I have no clue of the dev's gender so I don't want to assume, btw).
But I do enjoy those back and forth. It's very too fucking rare to be able to hold a conversation about her, and even moreso a deep one, with anyone without it going tits up because someone refuses to consider other viewpoints (not meaning "accept to share them" obviously), or strats straight up being an absolute dick, which never fails to get me angry.
There's more to learn to discussions like those that are made with respect and open-mindedness.

Edit : Fuck those posts are getting long

 

[Corambis]

The issue there is, as you phrase it, if the suicide was directly related to her being trans, that would have made the message be "Being trans is a bad thing because being trans makes you commit suicide". Which is not the case.

My counterargument would be that trans people commit suicide due in large part to the bullying and other issues associated with not conforming to how some people want you to be, or perhaps your own body not conforming to who you think you are. The message the game gives is that the bullying is bad, but it's not what's going to drive a trans person to kill themselves, which in a way means it's not so bad. It's things like broken hearts or embarrassment or thinking you screwed up a relationship. So basically the entire teenage experience, and beyond. The transphobes are going to think whatever they want regardless of how the game is handled. I'd say move Nea's suicide to their route, except we've seen that they'd enjoy it.

On the other hand, Luxee could do a lot of good by better representing how suicide is so high among trans people. It's not like being trans is inextricably linked to mental health issues. Or they don't have to be if the trans person has the right support. Those issues arise as they realize they have to find a way to deal with a body that doesn't match them, and with people that resent them for being true to themselves. A cis person facing a similar amount of bullying and for one reason or another having the same level of feeling they're in the wrong body or that something is majorly wrong with it would encounter the same mental health issues.

I still think that if Nea commits suicide, it should be something truer to the trans experience. It should be through the inaction or negative actions of the player, and not just Luxee making the player do stupid stuff or have bad stuff happen to them.

Well the thing is, so far I don't think we've seen much interaction between the different girls on that front, did we ? The game is still too early for talks of harem ending (in game) to be happening. But I actually wouldn't be surprise if, given some time in the Romance Nea route, the MC manages to get her to accept that, just like she's a trans woman and therefore unusual, he's polyamorous, which is just as unusual. Doesn't mean he's using her, he's just capable of loving multiple women at the same time without picking favorites. Though that's just my theorizing on where Luxee could go with this. Anyway, I don't think it's as impossible as you seem to think it is, but clearly it's nowhere near in sight for Nea yet.

I don't think there will be a Nea only path. I'm not sure if you can turn down some of the sex that's already happened in the game, but I can't remember. I'm kind of afraid to because you don't know if Luxee set that up to be a requirement for another love interest. The game seems to be heading for a harem of sorts, or rather a case where he plays the field for a while before apparently settling down by the time he starts to tell his story to that other person.

I suspect Luxee will go the "I'm okay with you having sex with everyone else. Even the girls who actively bullied me or didn't try to help. We're all best friends now because we love you." I still don't feel that Nea is that kind of character though. and shouldn't be made into it. I suspect she wouldn't react well to polyamory being compared directly to being trans either. I get where you're going with it, but it's hard to draw parallels that really capture the same feeling, as you've seen from my posts. Things like being trans require more delicacy then mere words can sometimes allow us, and most if not all of us here don't have direct experience as a trans person.

Harem endings are somewhat unrealistic male fantasies, which is fine is most cases for those that want it. I'm still not buying it for Nea. Nea seemed at first to be an attempt to accurately portray a trans character and their struggles. If Nea suddenly turns into generic submissive harem girl #3, I don't think that's a good move for Nea's character development or the realism of her story paths. It's another reason why I think Nea would be better suited for having her own game/VN to herself, but there's others as well. She needs the MC she's used to, and not the guy either screwing or seducing every other woman around him which feels like a different character. That's assuming a Nea romance route. Friendship route Nea could be the MC's wing-girl, telling him the way to the heart of every girl he wants and helping him build a harem if that's his thing. Then, maybe at the end of the game, Nea casually asks the MC if he's got room for one more girl in his harem, where it's her saying "I wouldn't mind joining the fun, if you'll have me" versus "I guess I'll choose being just one of your girls rather than be alone again."

 

[mordred93]

I don't know about reading all the walls of texts I have seen, but I will say, who knows where this game is going. Yes Nea has the most content at the moment, and others will get more content as time goes. About her sudden death, maybe she has to die to progress the story with another character. While sad, it may have been the plan all along. The dev has not said, and the game is not complete. This dev has not shied away from doing things which have been controversial nor shocking. Look at what happened with the older daughter's ending on the solo path in PL? Who knows. The game is not complete.

Remember the very beginning of the game. MC moves to new town, and is talking to neighbor, about his girl. Singular. Again - take it for what it is worth.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

My counterargument would be that trans people commit suicide due in large part to the bullying and other issues associated with not conforming to how some people want you to be, or perhaps your own body not conforming to who you think you are. The message the game gives is that the bullying is bad, but it's not what's going to drive a trans person to kill themselves, which in a way means it's not so bad. It's things like broken hearts or embarrassment or thinking you screwed up a relationship. So basically the entire teenage experience, and beyond. The transphobes are going to think whatever they want regardless of how the game is handled. I'd say move Nea's suicide to their route, except we've seen that they'd enjoy it.

On the other hand, Luxee could do a lot of good by better representing how suicide is so high among trans people. It's not like being trans is inextricably linked to mental health issues. Or they don't have to be if the trans person has the right support. Those issues arise as they realize they have to find a way to deal with a body that doesn't match them, and with people that resent them for being true to themselves. A cis person facing a similar amount of bullying and for one reason or another having the same level of feeling they're in the wrong body or that something is majorly wrong with it would encounter the same mental health issues.

I still think that if Nea commits suicide, it should be something truer to the trans experience. It should be through the inaction or negative actions of the player, and not just Luxee making the player do stupid stuff or have bad stuff happen to them.



I don't think there will be a Nea only path. I'm not sure if you can turn down some of the sex that's already happened in the game, but I can't remember. I'm kind of afraid to because you don't know if Luxee set that up to be a requirement for another love interest. The game seems to be heading for a harem of sorts, or rather a case where he plays the field for a while before apparently settling down by the time he starts to tell his story to that other person.

I suspect Luxee will go the "I'm okay with you having sex with everyone else. Even the girls who actively bullied me or didn't try to help. We're all best friends now because we love you." I still don't feel that Nea is that kind of character though. and shouldn't be made into it. I suspect she wouldn't react well to polyamory being compared directly to being trans either. I get where you're going with it, but it's hard to draw parallels that really capture the same feeling, as you've seen from my posts. Things like being trans require more delicacy then mere words can sometimes allow us, and most if not all of us here don't have direct experience as a trans person.

Harem endings are somewhat unrealistic male fantasies, which is fine is most cases for those that want it. I'm still not buying it for Nea. Nea seemed at first to be an attempt to accurately portray a trans character and their struggles. If Nea suddenly turns into generic submissive harem girl #3, I don't think that's a good move for Nea's character development or the realism of her story paths. It's another reason why I think Nea would be better suited for having her own game/VN to herself, but there's others as well. She needs the MC she's used to, and not the guy either screwing or seducing every other woman around him which feels like a different character. That's assuming a Nea romance route. Friendship route Nea could be the MC's wing-girl, telling him the way to the heart of every girl he wants and helping him build a harem if that's his thing. Then, maybe at the end of the game, Nea casually asks the MC if he's got room for one more girl in his harem, where it's her saying "I wouldn't mind joining the fun, if you'll have me" versus "I guess I'll choose being just one of your girls rather than be alone again."

agreed!

 

[Master of Puppets]

Remember the very beginning of the game. MC moves to new town, and is talking to neighbor, about his girl. Singular. Again - take it for what it is worth.

What it's worth is precisely nothing. All it implies is that he only has one girl with him on that particular day.

 

[mordred93]

What it's worth is precisely nothing. All it implies is that he only has one girl with him on that particular day.

Hahahaha .. true .. I wouldn't say nothing .. just not fully indicative of every possibility.

 

[Rutonat]

My counterargument would be that trans people commit suicide due in large part to the bullying and other issues associated with not conforming to how some people want you to be, or perhaps your own body not conforming to who you think you are. The message the game gives is that the bullying is bad, but it's not what's going to drive a trans person to kill themselves, which in a way means it's not so bad. It's things like broken hearts or embarrassment or thinking you screwed up a relationship. So basically the entire teenage experience, and beyond. The transphobes are going to think whatever they want regardless of how the game is handled. I'd say move Nea's suicide to their route, except we've seen that they'd enjoy it.

On the other hand, Luxee could do a lot of good by better representing how suicide is so high among trans people. It's not like being trans is inextricably linked to mental health issues. Or they don't have to be if the trans person has the right support. Those issues arise as they realize they have to find a way to deal with a body that doesn't match them, and with people that resent them for being true to themselves. A cis person facing a similar amount of bullying and for one reason or another having the same level of feeling they're in the wrong body or that something is majorly wrong with it would encounter the same mental health issues.

I still think that if Nea commits suicide, it should be something truer to the trans experience. It should be through the inaction or negative actions of the player, and not just Luxee making the player do stupid stuff or have bad stuff happen to them.

While I mostly agree, the way it's handled will still potentialy educate some people, so it shouldn't be made so that only people with more than four brain cells will understand the bigger picture. If at least 3 people understand that it's not "Suicide because trans people kill themselves" but rather that it came from the hell she lived because she was trans, and not because she was in the first place only, then it won't have been a waste of time and efforts. While it might seem not worth it for barely a few people, that's by slowly making one understand here and there that things will eventually get better.
If you think about it, that how it happened for black people after the whole slavery shit, for example. Before that, you had scientists pretending then physiologically weren't able to be as smart as white people...

I don't think there will be a Nea only path. I'm not sure if you can turn down some of the sex that's already happened in the game, but I can't remember. I'm kind of afraid to because you don't know if Luxee set that up to be a requirement for another love interest. The game seems to be heading for a harem of sorts, or rather a case where he plays the field for a while before apparently settling down by the time he starts to tell his story to that other person.

If Luxee sets up the game for no harem route or either that or one waifu, there probably will be a Nea route, I think. But we'll see how that goes. I'd be surprised if there weren't a harem route, tbh.

I suspect Luxee will go the "I'm okay with you having sex with everyone else. Even the girls who actively bullied me or didn't try to help. We're all best friends now because we love you."

To be fair, unless my memory betrays me, the only girl that actively bullied her and is "romanceable" did go to Nea to apologize and try to get to know her. The others are just background characters.

I still don't feel that Nea is that kind of character though. and shouldn't be made into it. I suspect she wouldn't react well to polyamory being compared directly to being trans either. I get where you're going with it, but it's hard to draw parallels that really capture the same feeling, as you've seen from my posts. Things like being trans require more delicacy then mere words can sometimes allow us, and most if not all of us here don't have direct experience as a trans person.

I wasn't really implying it was going to be an argument in the game. That was more me throwing pastas at the wall, maybe something will stick, maybe not. I just doubt Luxee would force a choice for a single LI or block out others if you pursue one. I could be wrong though.
As for how it'll handle with Nea... we can only wait and see. I just think that, while not 110% accurate to absolutely realistic human nature and to what trans people live through, there will probably be something. Otherwise, that would mean that no romance is possible with Nea and the character will basically have to be sent away for good. And while some people would cream their pants at the prospect, we both know Luxee won't do that.

Harem endings are somewhat unrealistic male fantasies, which is fine is most cases for those that want it. I'm still not buying it for Nea. Nea seemed at first to be an attempt to accurately portray a trans character and their struggles. If Nea suddenly turns into generic submissive harem girl #3, I don't think that's a good move for Nea's character development or the realism of her story paths. It's another reason why I think Nea would be better suited for having her own game/VN to herself, but there's others as well. She needs the MC she's used to, and not the guy either screwing or seducing every other woman around him which feels like a different character. That's assuming a Nea romance route. Friendship route Nea could be the MC's wing-girl, telling him the way to the heart of every girl he wants and helping him build a harem if that's his thing. Then, maybe at the end of the game, Nea casually asks the MC if he's got room for one more girl in his harem, where it's her saying "I wouldn't mind joining the fun, if you'll have me" versus "I guess I'll choose being just one of your girls rather than be alone again."

You're talking realism but you kinda forget the rest of the Lis roster, my dude. This game isn't that realistic, aside from Luxee going for a more tragic story with Nea. If they wanted to make a game to depict real life trans struggles and get people educated on the matter, they wouldn't have made a smut game with a probable harem outcome.
Yes, the way things will end up evolving for Neea probably won't be realistic comapred to real life, but the game doesn't pretend to mimic real life anyway. Also, for such an upbeat start, going down full realism would be an absolute bummer and probably destroy the game's hype for everyone.
There will probably be some amount of suspension of disbelief needed there.

About her sudden death, maybe she has to die to progress the story with another character. While sad, it may have been the plan all along.

You realize that, while you imply that her death is an obligatory step... her romance route has her surviving.

Remember the very beginning of the game. MC moves to new town, and is talking to neighbor, about his girl. Singular. Again - take it for what it is worth.

While he mentions only one, it does not mean there aren't others. Society's not exactly putting polygamy as something normal, so polyamorous people don't really go around screaming at the top of their lungs that they're in relationship with multiple people. All that entails right now is that the beginning scene has the MC traveling with only one girl, that all.

 

[mordred93]

You realize that, while you imply that her death is an obligatory step... her romance route has her surviving.

While he mentions only one, it does not mean there aren't others. Society's not exactly putting polygamy as something normal, so polyamorous people don't really go around screaming at the top of their lungs that they're in relationship with multiple people. All that entails right now is that the beginning scene has the MC traveling with only one girl, that all.

Why - yes I do - her surviving/thriving on that route may also be the part of the story with you ending up with her. Also I might say surviving for all I know ... for now.

As for traveling with one girl ... part of the "take it for what it is worth" meant. Anything else unless specifically stated by the dev/team or in the game .. is just conjecture.

Just a note ... here are the current tags: 3DCG, Big Tits, Corruption, Creampie, Groping, Handjob, Incest, Interracial, Loli, Male Protagonist, Masturbation, MILF, Urination, Sandbox, School Setting, Virgin, Trans

Zero mention of Harem or Poly.

 

[Rutonat]

Just a note ... here are the current tags: 3DCG, Big Tits, Corruption, Creampie, Groping, Handjob, Incest, Interracial, Loli, Male Protagonist, Masturbation, MILF, Urination, Sandbox, School Setting, Virgin, Trans

Zero mention of Harem or Poly.

Tags mention what is currently in the game, not what is planned. It's the same for every game posted here.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

there will be. I spoke to Lux about it.

 

[Corambis]

While I mostly agree, the way it's handled will still potentialy educate some people, so it shouldn't be made so that only people with more than four brain cells will understand the bigger picture. If at least 3 people understand that it's not "Suicide because trans people kill themselves" but rather that it came from the hell she lived because she was trans, and not because she was in the first place only, then it won't have been a waste of time and efforts. While it might seem not worth it for barely a few people, that's by slowly making one understand here and there that things will eventually get better.
If you think about it, that how it happened for black people after the whole slavery shit, for example. Before that, you had scientists pretending then physiologically weren't able to be as smart as white people...

People will be educated regardless, as you said. People have already been educated. I think more people could be educated and in a better way though.

While I mostly agree, the w
If Luxee sets up the game for no harem route or either that or one waifu, there probably will be a Nea route, I think. But we'll see how that goes. I'd be surprised if there weren't a harem route, tbh.

Everyone is so intertwined a harem route seems inevitable. Although out of all of the character Nea makes the most sense as a solo route.

To be fair, unless my memory betrays me, the only girl that actively bullied her and is "romanceable" did go to Nea to apologize and try to get to know her. The others are just background characters.

You're probably right. I hated her character for multiple reasons and fast-forwarded most of her stuff. I can't see Nea liking having to share the MC with her though.

I wasn't really implying it was going to be an argument in the game. That was more me throwing pastas at the wall, maybe something will stick, maybe not. I just doubt Luxee would force a choice for a single LI or block out others if you pursue one. I could be wrong though.
As for how it'll handle with Nea... we can only wait and see. I just think that, while not 110% accurate to absolutely realistic human nature and to what trans people live through, there will probably be something. Otherwise, that would mean that no romance is possible with Nea and the character will basically have to be sent away for good. And while some people would cream their pants at the prospect, we both know Luxee won't do that.

You're talking realism but you kinda forget the rest of the Lis roster, my dude. This game isn't that realistic, aside from Luxee going for a more tragic story with Nea. If they wanted to make a game to depict real life trans struggles and get people educated on the matter, they wouldn't have made a smut game with a probable harem outcome.
Yes, the way things will end up evolving for Neea probably won't be realistic comapred to real life, but the game doesn't pretend to mimic real life anyway. Also, for such an upbeat start, going down full realism would be an absolute bummer and probably destroy the game's hype for everyone.
There will probably be some amount of suspension of disbelief needed there.

PL was all about the multiple paths and full harem or single girls or a few combinations I think. I'm not sure what Luxee has planned here. I think he has plans for the Nea romance route but maybe hasn't thought out other stuff yet.

And I'll fall back on my feeling that this is two games smushed together; a harem/sexfest game and an actual romance with Nea. The Nea story is on a different level storywise, dramatically, thematically, and maturity than the other stuff, and I'm having trouble seeing how the two games will be merged at some point because some elements seem mutually incompatible. Maybe Luxee can make it work, or maybe it ends up with things just kind of unsatisfactorily coming together because they have to. I think Luxee would have preferred a solo Nea game if he thought he could have done it without losing supporters. His followers before he switched to A69 were made up of incest and loli fans mainly, so he needed to have that in his next game, even if his next game was his chance to tell Nea's story. At this point though, he could probably turn A69 into two different games, and just alternate between them like some other devs do. Then each game gets its own forum here, which may help quite a bit. Of course, there's people that won't be happy with that. But I don't see Luxee and possibly a good number of fans being happy with how these two disparate games finally combine because it's likely to be awkward. We'll just have to see though. He made some weird stuff and what seemed like clumsy storytelling ultimately come together in PL, so there's a good chance he'll do the same here.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

more interested in the Nea and Heather combo.

 

[Rutonat]

And I'll fall back on my feeling that this is two games smushed together; a harem/sexfest game and an actual romance with Nea. The Nea story is on a different level storywise, dramatically, thematically, and maturity than the other stuff, and I'm having trouble seeing how the two games will be merged at some point because some elements seem mutually incompatible. Maybe Luxee can make it work, or maybe it ends up with things just kind of unsatisfactorily coming together because they have to. I think Luxee would have preferred a solo Nea game if he thought he could have done it without losing supporters. His followers before he switched to A69 were made up of incest and loli fans mainly, so he needed to have that in his next game, even if his next game was his chance to tell Nea's story. At this point though, he could probably turn A69 into two different games, and just alternate between them like some other devs do. Then each game gets its own forum here, which may help quite a bit. Of course, there's people that won't be happy with that. But I don't see Luxee and possibly a good number of fans being happy with how these two disparate games finally combine because it's likely to be awkward. We'll just have to see though. He made some weird stuff and what seemed like clumsy storytelling ultimately come together in PL, so there's a good chance he'll do the same here.

Honestly, I think Luxee potentially didn't think Nea would become such a huge character. That wouldn't be the first time the work "escapes" the author. It's very possible they planned to add Nea but got more and more inspired and things went increasingly grand as they were working on her.
But as for splitting the game in two... I doubt it'll happen. Not only would it be too much work, but I don't think Luxee would want to give haters the satisfaction of having successfully pushed them to remove Nea from A69. Though, it's not unlikely they might make another game fully trans focused if enough people are interested.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

Honestly, I think Luxee potentially didn't think Nea would become such a huge character. That wouldn't be the first time the work "escapes" the author. It's very possible they planned to add Nea but got more and more inspired and things went increasingly grand as they were working on her.
But as for splitting the game in two... I doubt it'll happen. Not only would it be too much work, but I don't think Luxee would want to give haters the satisfaction of having successfully pushed them to remove Nea from A69. Though, it's not unlikely they might make another game fully trans focused if enough people are interested.

nice to know that we can agree on something.

 

[mordred93]

Tags mention what is currently in the game, not what is planned. It's the same for every game posted here.

Unless they say PLANNED TAGS, which many games do. I know that is what is currently in the game. If the dev committed to having something in this game, it might have planned tags listed.

I don't know why you are talking down to me like I am a child. I have been on this site 3 years longer than you, and I know how it works. All I have been saying - in many ways - we don't know what precisely the dev is planning, and any routes, etc. are not finished yet.

 

[Rutonat]

Unless they say PLANNED TAGS, which many games do. I know that is what is currently in the game. If the dev committed to having something in this game, it might have planned tags listed.

I don't know why you are talking down to me like I am a child. I have been on this site 3 years longer than you, and I know how it works. All I have been saying - in many ways - we don't know what precisely the dev is planning, and any routes, etc. are not finished yet.

First off, if I was patronazing you, that would be very much obvious. Right now it looks more like you're trying to put intentions in my mouth. You mentionned the tags, I answered. Not knowing if you knew how the tags worked, I explained. That's all there is to it. Just because you've been here longer doesn't mean much. I've lurked around websites a long time before making accounts, and even there I wasn't always aware of how the staff handled everything.
Now, if you'd rather keep thinking I'm talking to you like a kid... feel free. I'm just going to keep being clear when I mention or explain something.

And for the panned tags, it's posted in the main post, not the thread's tags. But since Luxee has deserted this site a while ago now, I doubt that'll get updated anytime soon. Only the thread's tags once the content is in.

 

[Master of Puppets]

Hahahaha .. true .. I wouldn't say nothing .. just not fully indicative of every possibility.

I say nothing because if he is dating all of the girls we've met plus a few more he met along the way, yet only one of them joined him in the diner on that day, the scene would be exactly the same. So it's not evidence of anything.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

I say nothing because if he is dating all of the girls we've met plus a few more he met along the way, yet only one of them joined him in the diner on that day, the scene would be exactly the same. So it's not evidence of anything.

we all assumed the same thing. c'mon.

 

[alex2011]

If there had to be suicide, it probably should have been linked to gender though, or the transgender experience a bit more. A very crude analogy is if you're friends with someone with cancer. You know they may not make it. You're doing everything you can to help them. Then you're late to pick them up from chemo one day through no fault of your own, so they start walking and get hit by a bus.

It's out of nowhere. Yes, you were prepared for them maybe dying, but they had been making progress, and this was only loosely related to the cancer. If done right, it can just be a statement that the world is a brutal place, or an attempt at irony. But I don't think that applies to this game. It's just that this is a way of describing the feeling the Nea's death gives me. It's not related to their entire backstory in a 100% direct manner. They end up dying because of something happening outside the player's control. It doesn't make sense not just if looked at within the game world, but also when looking outside from our perspective.

And I'll go back again to the idea that I don't think Nea would react well to the MC having other love interests. I hope to God we don't get a "I'm okay with sharing" scene with her. That's okay for some games, but not this one, at least for Nea. Nea's path has a different vibe than a harem game. She wants love, and not some submissive cult-like "we all submit to your cock" thing. Which is great fun in some other games. I can see it for the other love interests in this game. I just can't reconcile it with Nea. So when it does come up that the MC has other love interests, I see that being an even bigger issue than the scene in question here.




I think a few tweaks could make a world of difference. Add in a few more choices or just reword stuff. There's so many ways to do it where Nea doesn't have to die unless the player chooses an actual bad option. I don't think too many people would be upset, even Luxee unless Nea's suicide like that was his unshakable vision for the friendship path. But if players like me got their friendship path, or at least Nea exiting it in a less tragic way, there's be an awful lot of happy people.

Honestly, if the friendship path was about Nea getting out of her house, and maybe getting some therapy, as I mentioned long ago it would be interesting to introduce a romance path further down the line there. The more I get to know Nea, the more I may see beyond the body and to the girl inside. Maybe despite my aversion to penises that are not my own, my love at Nea at that time would make that seem silly. That was maybe Luxee's intention, but if so he's been trying to force it. Plus later in the game after she'd gotten some help I wouldn't feel like "I'm taking advantage of this girl desperate for love and acceptance and basically in a very fragile place right now."

As always, a good debate. I'm getting better at seeing your viewpoint, but there's also obviously some of the same going on for you. Maybe if we can continue to find common ground we can 1) help end the ongoing debates and 2) show Luxee that there is support for changing things, even if we realize that ultimately it's his call.

Indeed, it should have been linked more toward the other factors, this would not have necessarily prevented the backlash, but it would likely have put the reaction more on the game and less on Luxee himself. You're right, Nea does give the 'he's all mine, I won't accept other girls' vibe and that puts Nea in a VERY dangerous position of potentially committing suicide regardless of being on the romance path, you would literally have to be on a Nea and ONLY Nea run to get Nea to the end of the game alive. In a game that was originally portrayed as a harem game, that is not a good thing, it is literally punishing the player for playing the game for what it is.

There are, like the aforementioned friendship route, where all Luxee would have to do is put a simple block on sex scenes and reword some lines, much easier than a full path usually is and using some of the most basic skills in the Renpy toolbox. Literally the only people I can see getting upset at a route where Nea lives as a friend are the people that WANT Nea dead, the haters who brought this on in the first place, and those people I would think would be ones Luxee would WANT to upset because that means their hate lost.

My counterargument would be that trans people commit suicide due in large part to the bullying and other issues associated with not conforming to how some people want you to be, or perhaps your own body not conforming to who you think you are. The message the game gives is that the bullying is bad, but it's not what's going to drive a trans person to kill themselves, which in a way means it's not so bad. It's things like broken hearts or embarrassment or thinking you screwed up a relationship. So basically the entire teenage experience, and beyond. The transphobes are going to think whatever they want regardless of how the game is handled. I'd say move Nea's suicide to their route, except we've seen that they'd enjoy it.

On the other hand, Luxee could do a lot of good by better representing how suicide is so high among trans people. It's not like being trans is inextricably linked to mental health issues. Or they don't have to be if the trans person has the right support. Those issues arise as they realize they have to find a way to deal with a body that doesn't match them, and with people that resent them for being true to themselves. A cis person facing a similar amount of bullying and for one reason or another having the same level of feeling they're in the wrong body or that something is majorly wrong with it would encounter the same mental health issues.

I still think that if Nea commits suicide, it should be something truer to the trans experience. It should be through the inaction or negative actions of the player, and not just Luxee making the player do stupid stuff or have bad stuff happen to them.



I don't think there will be a Nea only path. I'm not sure if you can turn down some of the sex that's already happened in the game, but I can't remember. I'm kind of afraid to because you don't know if Luxee set that up to be a requirement for another love interest. The game seems to be heading for a harem of sorts, or rather a case where he plays the field for a while before apparently settling down by the time he starts to tell his story to that other person.

I suspect Luxee will go the "I'm okay with you having sex with everyone else. Even the girls who actively bullied me or didn't try to help. We're all best friends now because we love you." I still don't feel that Nea is that kind of character though. and shouldn't be made into it. I suspect she wouldn't react well to polyamory being compared directly to being trans either. I get where you're going with it, but it's hard to draw parallels that really capture the same feeling, as you've seen from my posts. Things like being trans require more delicacy then mere words can sometimes allow us, and most if not all of us here don't have direct experience as a trans person.

Harem endings are somewhat unrealistic male fantasies, which is fine is most cases for those that want it. I'm still not buying it for Nea. Nea seemed at first to be an attempt to accurately portray a trans character and their struggles. If Nea suddenly turns into generic submissive harem girl #3, I don't think that's a good move for Nea's character development or the realism of her story paths. It's another reason why I think Nea would be better suited for having her own game/VN to herself, but there's others as well. She needs the MC she's used to, and not the guy either screwing or seducing every other woman around him which feels like a different character. That's assuming a Nea romance route. Friendship route Nea could be the MC's wing-girl, telling him the way to the heart of every girl he wants and helping him build a harem if that's his thing. Then, maybe at the end of the game, Nea casually asks the MC if he's got room for one more girl in his harem, where it's her saying "I wouldn't mind joining the fun, if you'll have me" versus "I guess I'll choose being just one of your girls rather than be alone again."

That is exactly part of what causes real trans suicides, pressure from more...traditional society to not be themselves, some of which can get violently opposed and some of which refuse outright to accept who they are resulting in a terrible level of mental anguish and strain that eventually would break a person, if not causing them to commit suicide, then causing them to live with that agony and the mental illness that can result from such trauma for the rest of their lives. Also, yes, it CAN result in suicide, but any person regardless of cis or trans would need to be pushed to an extreme amount of anguish for that and I do not get that vibe just yet from Nea, I get the vibe that Nea is suffering, but not enough to go this far this fast.

Nea absolutely shouldn't be made to make up with anyone who took a role in the bullying, that's adding fuel to a raging inferno, that is the absolute worst torture you can put on a victim as tormented as Nea. In fact, that would be the single biggest move the MC could make in the direction of actively pushing Nea to suicide. That is an act of betrayal like no other, like the MC is suddenly revealing he was a hidden aggressor in league with the bullies the whole time. Those people deserve no quarter given. Also, no, polyamory and trans are definitely not comparable.

I agree, as usual, with the separate game thing. Nea is better off as written in a different game where the MC can focus on Nea alone and there is no threat of harem based suicide.

People will be educated regardless, as you said. People have already been educated. I think more people could be educated and in a better way though.




Everyone is so intertwined a harem route seems inevitable. Although out of all of the character Nea makes the most sense as a solo route.




You're probably right. I hated her character for multiple reasons and fast-forwarded most of her stuff. I can't see Nea liking having to share the MC with her though.



PL was all about the multiple paths and full harem or single girls or a few combinations I think. I'm not sure what Luxee has planned here. I think he has plans for the Nea romance route but maybe hasn't thought out other stuff yet.

And I'll fall back on my feeling that this is two games smushed together; a harem/sexfest game and an actual romance with Nea. The Nea story is on a different level storywise, dramatically, thematically, and maturity than the other stuff, and I'm having trouble seeing how the two games will be merged at some point because some elements seem mutually incompatible. Maybe Luxee can make it work, or maybe it ends up with things just kind of unsatisfactorily coming together because they have to. I think Luxee would have preferred a solo Nea game if he thought he could have done it without losing supporters. His followers before he switched to A69 were made up of incest and loli fans mainly, so he needed to have that in his next game, even if his next game was his chance to tell Nea's story. At this point though, he could probably turn A69 into two different games, and just alternate between them like some other devs do. Then each game gets its own forum here, which may help quite a bit. Of course, there's people that won't be happy with that. But I don't see Luxee and possibly a good number of fans being happy with how these two disparate games finally combine because it's likely to be awkward. We'll just have to see though. He made some weird stuff and what seemed like clumsy storytelling ultimately come together in PL, so there's a good chance he'll do the same here.

I can see the dissonance between the two stories for sure, they don't blend well. Nea is unlikely to want to share largely because of the trauma and potentially fearing abandonment should Nea realize the MC won't be exclusive. Meanwhile every other character is willing to share as far as we know. The other characters blend well into the same story together because of that while Nea just feels like an outsider.

Why - yes I do - her surviving/thriving on that route may also be the part of the story with you ending up with her. Also I might say surviving for all I know ... for now.

As for traveling with one girl ... part of the "take it for what it is worth" meant. Anything else unless specifically stated by the dev/team or in the game .. is just conjecture.

Just a note ... here are the current tags: 3DCG, Big Tits, Corruption, Creampie, Groping, Handjob, Incest, Interracial, Loli, Male Protagonist, Masturbation, MILF, Urination, Sandbox, School Setting, Virgin, Trans

Zero mention of Harem or Poly.

There have been signs of setup for harem since day one, they were especially prevalent before Nea took the spotlight. Also, not every thread maker puts every tag in the first post, both active ones and future ones.