Ok huge post, but a really good one from Asphyx. Going through your thoughts I think we actually agree on more than we disagree. I don't think any of the recent conversation about the whole thing has been done via "Ericas" and no one has said that he was supposed to be the focal point of the game.
Let me be clear again (and hopefully finally) about my complaints regarding Eric....
He never bothered me for being in this game!!!!! I didn't care that he was fucking HIS girlfriend!!!
What bothered me was he was a no win scenario and no matter what choice you made you lose and gain nothing of any consequence.
As your friend the only consolation was you get to help him humiliate mom and watch her get railed for ONE PIC worth of content. That's not NTR to me it's just plain humiliation and degradation of a women. Some guys get off on that...Not me!
As his Enemy all you got was a grind trying to reduce his influence for 2-3 version releases until DS had completed the code to rid yourself of him.
He was pure Kobayashi Maru with very little reward for defeating him other than you can continue the game as if he was never there. I'm fine with putting obstacles in our way for gameplay...what I'm not fine with is having that obstacle be in the way for two and a half versions (and patreon fees) with absolutely no other sex to be had in a sex game.
All of this argument regarding Eric would never have happened if the Eric friend path led to you double teaming mom with him or the MC getting some sex. Perhaps even make it about a choice of Mentors, Eric (Domination) vs Kira (Sensual Seduction). Then Eric would be a REAL gameplay and STORY mechanism to drive future events.
And I agree with pretty much all of this. I wasn't following the game when he first showed up, I came in at 0.6 or so, but the whole sequence where Eric is involved is an exercise in frustration. I myself have also said that Eric could have been more or less "fixed" had the friend path actually been worth a damn. And that dueling mentors thing would have been a great idea too. Hell how great would it have been to befriend the douche-bag, then betray him to his death once you get everything you needed from him?
As for my taking on those who claim Eric was the focus of this game from the get go and DS changed his mind well....
I just can't sit here, read those posts that I know are complete and total bull (as I think I have showed with DS' own words). These lies are just what the Erica's cling to as a last ditch effort to try and get Eric back as the focus and nurture their hopes of getting the NTR game they so desperately want.
Eric's only purpose was to make you work to get the Harem because DS doesn't get the idea of INCEST sans desperation, Mental Illness or Blackmail. He doesn't understand that trying to convince a family member to have sex with you is probably an even GREATER challenge than overcoming a blowhard bully intent on fucking your entire family.
And because he didn't know how to tell that more realistic and INTERESTING incest challenge story arc he opted for a big bad Level Boss to deal with instead. And pretty much botched it in the implementation by making him undefeatable for two and a half versions! His plans for Eric was always as we see it right now in this game...The problem was he couldn't complete what he planned for Eric in a single version and the fact the releases were all about him but not about INCEST or the MC getting laid until he COULD finish it was what made everyone on Patreon sound off on him.
I see where you are coming from, but as I said, at least in recent conversations I haven't seen anyone advocating Eric's return. Mainly we've either been bemoaning how his section was mishandled and feels incomplete, and how after he left there was no longer any real game play. Pretty much all of the stats and things that existed under the hood more or less exist in order to deal with Eric, and combat his influence.
I agree with the botched implementation, and DS had no idea what he was getting into when he started that story. That much is absolutely clear.
I do disagree that his plans are what we currently see. I think it's clear that he always planned to have the player get rid of Eric, but I do think that the player would eventually have seen what Eric did with Alice, as well as the corruption of Lisa via sex ed.
I bet people who know nothing about this game and decide to play it for the first time don't get the impression that Eric is all that omnipotent or get that NTR feeling some others get...
Why? Because you can dispatch him within two weeks of game time while the rest of us who were there from the beginning had to wait and suffer him for 2-3 months.
Actually the definition you are using normally applies only to a single woman in the story not every woman who appears. If you apply that definition the way you did to BB then every lesbian scene in a sex game would also be NTR if you got to fuck one or both later on...Any Brother Sister Incest relationship sim could also be called NTR simply because Mom and Dad are having sex in it and you as the MC may be hoping to fuck mom later on.
At best the genre BB fits is already listed on the tags...VOYEURISM!
That is all that Eric provides...Something to peek at. (and not much content even for that as you really don't see much of anything!)
I disagree here. It's easy to deal with Eric because we at this point know what you have to do to get rid of him. For a new player, who is probably still figuring out how to get money reliably (the game really doesn't teach you this) you are likely not even getting the dresses for the girls before Eric does your first time around. Then once the wallet situation hits you need constant cash while you deal with it, or if you stick on the friend route to bide your time you are dealing with a dead end.
All the while Eric is turning the family against you, and if you bang Kira for the only easy access sex scene you can get while Eric is around, he starts fucking her too. And he can even turn her. It's kinda like when a1fox3 talks about how easy it is to avoid Eric, that's only true if you know the game well in the first place, and thus know what's going to happen ahead of time, and know when and how you need money. It's not hard to get into a money/influence death spiral.
As for the definition, it may really be pointless. BB may be trying to be a voyeur game, and with Ann and Eric it's actually not unsuccessful. Whether it was intended or not, the game pushes those NTR buttons for a lot of people. I'm again, one of those who rails against the overuse of the term, it really does fit well in BB.
I think that it affects people in the same way because the game sets up the family first, sets up Max's desire to fuck all of them, starts the process, then brings in Eric, who not only fucks your mom, but flat out says he's going to fuck your whole family, then takes steps to do so. Where in your example the Dad is fucking the Mom, it's not NTR because it's an established relationship that is the status quo at the start of the game.
Which is why had, say Ann mentioned her Boyfriend/Boss was moving down a few weeks after the family, I think there would have been a LOT less bitching.
The problem is that the folks who really LOVE NTR have no real games that focus on their kink so they are left to use their imagination to make any sex SEEN that doesn't involve the MC as it fitting what turns them on!
It doesn't fit though, especially not in this game. And that point isn't the issue that causes these 20 pages worth of posts it is the issue of these NTR folks so DESPERATELY trying to convince everyone this game was MEANT TO BE NTR which is a figment of their vivid imagination which seems to influence ever fact they state. It's NTR because they imagined it to be because they are desperate for ANY NTRish content due to its low popularity.
Desperate people will lie cheat and steal to get what they need and I for one would hope they just stop their crap, find some other game that might fit their needs more than this one and leave us INCEST FANS alone to enjoy our game!
Here you seem to be arguing against someone who hasn't been a part of the conversation here over the last couple of days. The MOST I have said that is "pro-NTR" would be that it sucks that the Eric path has so many open ends to it. In a game where you peep on EVERYTHING, not seeing what happens in those scenes makes it feel like there is something missing.
I also think that the bulk of the NTR talk is from people who hate the kink with a passion. People call the game NTR at least as much because the stuff with Eric kicks up the same emotional response as 'real' NTR does. So I mean at that point, what is the difference?
