somehow I doubt finding out would do anything. Kate, much like her father, is a sociopath and narcissist and would gaslight anyone who doesn't believe her outright. Ashley came from a small town where I doubt she had any experience with people like Kate and as a result, she is easily manipulated into a position where she'll defend Kate from any and all accusations against her. by the time she realizes what happened, MC will have moved on and she'll either be stuck with toxic friends who ruin lives for fun or be alone since no one will want to trust her. people like Kate only stand by someone while they are useful and the minute they aren't useful, tend to abandon them. much like with the dean who claimed to be a family friend and now faces possibly being dismissed for what Kate and her friends leaked
- Thread starter IcarusLabs
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But he didn't foil their attempts to join the Sorority. Rachel was never going to let the 5 of them in. She knew Kate and crew were too powerful so she was always planning to break them up. That wasn't the MCs doing. What was the MCs doing was painting a bigger target on their back and causing the entire Sorority's images leaked and the sorority itself disbanded. Then Rachel got expelled and her life ruined. The biggest success he has had was in hurting the woobie of the group, and Charlotte if he went down that route. Only one of which offered any real catharsis.
And if the girls are supposed to be canon fodder for Kate, we should see more of it than we currently do. We have the advantage the MC doesn't in that we can see what the BS do when they are by themselves, and Kate and crew are nothing but supportive of each other. It's the reason I don't think Kate is the main villain in the piece. Now, if say we had evidence that she did in fact leak the images of the MC in high school and set up his social ostracization in order to say, separate Annie from her only real support structure outside the group, then that would be something. If we saw her pushing the BS into doing things they very much didn't want to do, or making it about personal loyalty to HER, I might agree with you. But we have had the ability to see Kate away from the act she has to put on for the MC, and everything we see is at worst someone who is overly ambitious and someone who will go out of her way to get back at anyone who hurts the group. An overprotective den mother.
- Sep 26, 2016
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I'm pretty sure last update foreshadowed cracks in that loyalty after the cheating thing. Also loyalty and villains isn't mutually exclusive. The opposite. Good villains inspire loyalty in their underlings. To the extent they don't even realize they are being used. Some of the worst bosses of organized crime were beloved by the common people around them. Church-going philanthropists who would fiercely protect and support friends, family and hood. And yet had no problem sending anyone who was considered an obstacle to their goal, to sleep with the fish.
I'd go far as to say the issue is the dev clearly wants to make a novel with choices but seems to sub-consciously write it like a kinetic novel. I mean there's plenty of other problems of course: the antagonists being so overwhelmingly powerful that there's literally no way the protag could *possibly* win; the love interests being largely irritating or annoying, giving no reason for the player to care about any of them other than deciding which they deem the most attractive; the dialogue being unnecessarily winding and bloated, somehow being both in-depth but deeply boring.
Of course she would inspire loyalty that isn't the point. But we don't even have hints so far that she's basically using the girls, which is what I was responding to. The best, and most loyal friend group in the game is the BS so far, and we have had the ability to see them by themselves, outside of the MC's pov. If you are watching a movie with a Mob boss, as per your example, you will generally see him at some point threaten, or imply threats to those under him. Show that he is in charge. Kate has yet to do this to the BS even once. And we haven't even seen the BS actually DO anything. There are implications, sure... but again with the player having more information than any one character in the story, when it comes to doing horrible stuff, we have in real time, seen the MCs crew do awful things, we have seen Rachel do awful things, we have not seen the BS actually do anything.
Generally something like that is written that way for a reason. Which is why I expect a big twist that the worst things the BS did are done by Kate's father, with Kate at worst turning a blind eye when she needs something done.
- Sep 26, 2016
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It's obvious Kate's father is far more dangerous and probably more villainous. But we have already seen Kate doing horrible shit. She has even admitted it in her convos with MC, just not explicitly, because unlike MC, she isn't dumb. And to the mob boss example, true power lies with people who don't have to explicitly order or threaten. People just know what they are supposed to do to please them.
We 've already seen hints of that in MC's high school situation. We still don't know if she chose to mess with him just for fun or as part of a bigger plan. But him being bullied was obviously done because the underlings knew that was what they were supposed to do, to please their queen. And obviously she could have stopped it anytime if that wasn't the case. "Turning a blind eye" is pretty much the standard way to do shady shit without getting directly involved. And it's just as evil (and more insidious)
- Sep 30, 2017
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I'm curious if you have ever seen the Godfather I and II.
Vito Corleone was beloved by all his underlings. He did not rule with fear. Yes, his enemies feared him. But his friends/family and underlings, truly loved him. Because he was genuinely a "good" man, despite being the Don.
Michael on the other hand.....
A good boss does not need to show he is in charge, he is just in charge.
Kate, is not close to be a Vito Character, but she does inspire loyalty and love from her followers similar to Vito.
- Sep 30, 2017
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I think I will leave this as a difference of opinion. That fact that Kate could turn defeat into victory was not the MC's doing. They were defeated fair and square and they themselves acknowledged it after not all being accepted into the Sorority. It was short-lived.
The BS have different methods of bullying:
Emma:
The photo was leaked by Emma, it served no bigger purpose. It was just Emma being mischievous.
Emma is the type of person that just does stuff without thinking on how it affects other people.
The type that would laugh if someone trips and falls, without feeling bad for the person etc. etc.
She by her very nature lacks any empathy, apart from her own friends and people close to her.
Charlotte:
Charlotte is he typical bully. I would venture a guess to say that most of the direct bullying were done by her. Maybe even most of the derived bullying, since she was not afraid to use her body. The reason for her bullying seems to be her own insecurities plus maybe a suppressed empathy for other people. She is also bitter and is maybe a bit angry at the world and want other people to suffer like she was suffering.
Annie and Sarah:
I think they were mostly enablers. Not ever speaking up about anything. I think they both lied to themselves and keep lying to themselves to tell them that nothing really bad happened. I think of the two, Annie has a bit more of a ruthless streak, that can get nasty if she was hurt by something/someone. I think Sarah cannot hurt a fly on her own, but once again, she will do anything for her friends, including doing her part when asked.
Kate:
Kate likes power. That is undisputed. I think she has a warped view on how to achieve power. She will tolerate injustices and bullying if at means she gets more power. I don't think she initiates most of the bullying at school or most of it were at her behest. (I think most of it were done and directed by Emma and Charlotte). But it played into her hand of achieving more power at school, so she allowed it. No I do not think she has some kind of a masterplan. She achieves power and then tries to wield her power for what she sees as a "good cause" since that probably makes her feel accomplished.
But power comes before anything else. She knows that the way to achieve things is through power alone and that is always her primary goal. Forming the BS was always part of her way to achieve power, but that does not mean that she does not care for them. I think she genuinely loves and care for her squad.
Is Kate evil? No I don't think so. I think she is still young enough to be corrected and can achieve great things, without stepping on anyone else. It's just her frame of reference was her dad: Not the best influencer by far. Ath this stage, she is definitely not a good person.
In my playthrough, I'm hoping to achieve that. But the MC would need to totally break her down to achieve that. Not sure if that is possible.
My 2c
I think you weren't paying attention to the movie... Vito was a beast which is why the family followed him and yes they respected him because he knew when to be the beast and when to be something else, but if you think for one second nobody in the family feared him then you weren't paying attention. As far as Kate not being a mob boss obviously not she's more of a bureaucrat than anything but power hungry just the same which is in it's own right the road to corruption. Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely. The true question is how much power will be enough to satisfy the BS? I don't see their plan(s) ending with just a college campus...
I would disagree. she is nowhere near Vito's level. Vito earned his respect and loyalty and didn't have the luxury of acting like a victim to further his goals. Kate acts like the world is against her and as a result has the mentality of "burn everyone in front of her, consequences be damned". she didn't earn her power. I have a feeling it was more because some people knew what her father is and chose to just agree with her out of fear he might do something. look what happened to the woman with the hard drive. clearly Kate talked about the drive to her father and more than likely alluded to someone getting it for her
- Sep 26, 2016
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evil = something morally reprehensible, sinful, wicked. You are defined as a person by your actions (or knowing inaction) and her actions are without a doubt...evil. You don't have to be a mustache twirling villain giving speeches or a murderous psycho to be evil. Evil can be subtle and oftentimes the person doing those things, don't see themselves as such. But she is still evil by definition.
Actually her (and to a lesser extent rest of BS) being this type of realistic, well written villain is the main reason I'm still following this game. It's very rare you find realistic villains in these games. It's also the reason I find MC's characterization so frustrating since it comes from the same person writing those villains. I can only speculate it's the difficulty of juggling multiple paths for the same character that makes it so but still...
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Ah yes, the ever calm Vito:
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Anyhow, I'd maybe agree with you more if Kate actually did favors for other people, along with being a harsh retributionist. But the problem right now is that we don't see a reason anyone would actually follow her. She speaks in platitudes and we are still, nearly halfway through the story don't even have a motivation for her or even really a hint at one outside of "make the world better".
Part of it is that the BS is generally too perfect. Lots of ways this could have been done differently while keeping the main story together, but hasn't been done. Say, for example, the cheating was real for one of the girls, maybe Charlotte or Emma, but they didn't know it, and Kate had rigged things in their favor. It would have been a lot more interesting than the MC making dirt up.
The only real dirt that exists in any way in four episodes is Charlotte stealing the necklace, and even that is used more to hint that her mother was killed by whatever organization Kate's father is part of.
My point isn't that Kate and crew didn't have a failure or setback when it came to the Sorority, but it was more that the MC didn't cause it. Rachel never planned on letting the five of them in. She said as much.
As for the rest, Kate and crew are being set up as having a master plan, even from the first episode. We still don't know why they changed their plans and went to this college, why they did it at the last minute, what this "making the world a better place" even entails, what her relationship is with her father, who again is being built up as the big bad in the story. The girls all seem to know this plan, but never talk about it when the camera is on them. It's also why they all seem off, and why anyone can read anything into what they do right now, because we know nothing of their overall motivations.
It's always funny when people write a story that entirely hinges on a likely twist, cause 9 times out of 10 the writers aren't good enough to do it. I've read, seen, and played a lot of stories where the story hinges on a twist, and it's either so predictable you're just sitting there waiting until the obvious happens, or it comes out of the blue because the writer clearly didn't think it through at all. Both of those options have their biggest weakness in the focus of a twist over writing an actual story with competent dialogue and storytelling.
Also, let's be real, do we actually care what the twist is? The house is built on rocky foundations and each room shown has a ton of flaws, doesn't really matter if there's a big pool in the backyard does it?
*cough* Acting *cough* Lessons *cough*
Sorry, don't know where that came from.
But I agree, doing mystery well or twists well requires a slow drip feed of information, answering questions that lead to more questions, and slowly letting the reader put the pieces together. The best twists are the ones where you aren't even expecting a major twist but in hindsight it all makes sense while still keeping with the tone of the story. That is why say, The Sixth Sense was such a great film, and why later M. Night Shamalan films never quite worked as well, because once the audience is expecting a big twist... it is much harder to pull it off. Also see early Game of Thrones vs Later Game of Thrones.
- Sep 30, 2017
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Vito was a good guy driven by circumstances.
Yes, he was a beast, but his community and underlings loved him and did not fear him. Of course, that meant not disrespecting him as well. The very reason he became the godfather was because Don Fanucci was oppressing and extorting Italians.
1) He killed Don Fanucci who was a terrible man.
2) He killed the Sicilian Don that murdered his mother and brother.
3) He helped the Italian Widow with her dog.
4) He helped Johhny with his "problem"
5) He helped the undertaker with his "Justice"
Who feared him?
Let me see, was it Luca Brazzi? was it Johnny Fontain? Maybe Sonny, Michael or Fredo? Was it the baker that visited him in hospital?
Or was it the greedy Musician that wanted to blackmail Johnny, The arrogant Movie director, or maybe the other heads of the 5 families? Yes, it was his enemies, not his closest circles.
Even his two second in commands were like family to him and was literally his best friends, before he became the Don.
No, he was still a criminal that did very bad things. But his community/family/friends and underlings, like Luca, loved him.
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My opinion (And it's just this: An opinion) is that Kate does not have a master plan. Her plan is power and then after getting power, seeing what she can do to change things more to her liking.
Her default setting is to get into a position of power to change her environment to her liking. The type of person that wants to be student president, Head girl etc. etc. Not sure if it's a plot point that they ended up in this Uni. Maybe one of them did not get into the more fancy Uni and they then decided to stick together and all go to this Uni.
If it isn't a plot point, that is one hell of a chekov's gun to ignore.
The whole reason that the MC and crew went to this school was because the BS had already said they were going elsewhere, that is why it was such a shock that not just ONE of them was at the college, but all of them were. The expectation was that they were going to Ivy league schools, but they ended up here. One of the first questions asked is "Why are they here?" and that has yet to be answered.
Not to mention all the other questions that keep getting piled up and very few if any get answered and the few that seem to are done so in such an unsatisfying way.
Yeah the lack of information is what hurts the story more than anything else. Even the answers we have gotten are limited to specific routes, which is a shame because no single playthrough feels like it works on its own.
In my playthough, this was the impression I got(and I don't do impressions, so bear with me here):
• Montecita was more of a last chance/final option for the MC to attend college because if his poor grades/lack of scholarships.
• The MC assumed that Kate and her friends were attending other, more prestigious schools 'in the east' due to their grades/money. etc.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about the point you made; just wondering if I missed something or it this is another thing that the dev might have left unclear.
I feel Kate is the type to have a plan. A well thought out, multi-part plan with well defined goals at each step. She's all business.
But she's also flexible enough to be able to change those plans if something goes wrong(like someone not getting into Kappa Kai).
I'm just curious what that plan would have looked like if the pics of Sarah hadn't been leaked. Maybe she mentioned it and I missed it.