muschi26

Engaged Member
Jun 22, 2019
2,721
4,088
I typically don't mind solo devs relying on RNG as a replacement for proper gameplay balance
I’m not sure I understand your point. RNG makes games harder to balance, because it increases variance. Instead of knowing for sure that players facing X enemy with Y health will deal Z damage per turn and take W turns, the dev of a game with RNG has to factor in possibilities like the player critting and oneshotting the enemy, or the enemy critting and oneshotting the player, etc.

If I were a new game dev, I think I would try to have as little RNG possible in my game (I might make an adventure–puzzle game, for instance).
 

nulnil

Member
May 18, 2021
471
351
I typically don't mind solo devs relying on RNG as a replacement for proper gameplay balance..
Like muschi26 said, RNG is no band-aid for bad game design. Funnily enough, it's usually the giant AAA games overdosing on RNG, not the indie games.


As for balancing the game, all that needs to be done is to make traits inherit more often. (Edit: in terms of breeding grind, not all the anti-quality of life)
 
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slick97

Active Member
Dec 2, 2021
554
1,296
I’m not sure I understand your point. RNG makes games harder to balance, because it increases variance. Instead of knowing for sure that players facing X enemy with Y health will deal Z damage per turn and take W turns, the dev of a game with RNG has to factor in possibilities like the player critting and oneshotting the enemy, or the enemy critting and oneshotting the player, etc.

If I were a new game dev, I think I would try to have as little RNG possible in my game (I might make an adventure–puzzle game, for instance).
My point was that implementing proper game balance is a tedious task that takes months to accomplish, even with a team of developers. Breaking mechanics down into governing equations with basic weights (difficulty sliders, essentially) takes a level of competence that very few devs possess on their own.



Let's take an example from the game to clarify further:

Let some nephelym be represented by a variable (i.e. colossus = c)

We want to generate a list of traits for the colossus based on its species, resulting in the following available traits:
  • Meaty
  • Hung
  • Buxom
  • Busty
  • Chubby

The number of traits chosen is randomized from 0 - 3 with each training having an even chance of being picked. We'll ignore the level of the trait since that adds complexity I don't want to deal with for this example.

The resulting formula is the easiest to implement for this scenario (written in c++ for demonstration purposes):

Code:
// Trait list
trait[] = {"meaty", "hung", "buxom", "busty", "chubby"};

// Generate random number between 0 and 4
n_trait = rand() % 4;

for(i = 0; i <= n_trait; i++){
     index = rand() % 4;
     c[i] = trait[index];
}
That right there is what I meant when I said RNG determined values are the easiest to implement.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at how to potentially add a better version of this (i.e. not using "rand" functions). We'll use the same trait list to keep things simple.

The simplest implementation is assigning weights to each trait which can be thought of how common they are for a nephelym. Here's the same trait list with potential weights:
  • Meaty = 50%
  • Hung = 50%
  • Buxom = 35%
  • Busty = 35%
  • Chubby = 10%
Those percentages could easily be implemented as sliders in an options menu to make it easier or harder to obtain certain traits.

An alternative approach is to take the level of the player and use that to generate the traits. This would mean each trait becomes more common to spawn as the player essentially increases the chance for traits to be present. Again, this still relies on probability, but it's a better implementation of it.

Example of implementation:
Code:
col_busty_base = 0.3;
sum = p_lvl/p_lvl_max + col_busty_base

if(sum >= 1){
     col_busty = 1;
}
else{
     col_busty = sum;
}
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Another implementation of traits is to add a mechanic in which you can create items that remove/add specific traits. This could be accomplished via mixing types of semen/milk for the trait, and using some other material for increasing the level of the trait. I personally dislike this method since it removes the point of breeding, but it at least allows for some control over traits.

The best implementation of traits (in my personal opinion) is through the second method under the RNG section, and adding the weights of two identical traits between nephelym together for a maximum of 100%. Since the weights of a trait are tied to the nephelym rather than a global value it's rather easy to implement and incentives players to learn about the system.

Here's an example of what I mean since describing math is obnoxious:

c_b = weight for busty trait in colossus
s_b = weight for busty trait in succubus
o_b = weight for busty trait in offspring

Code:
if(c_b + s_b >= 1){
     o_b = 1;
}
else{
     o_b = c_b + s_b;
}
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Author notes:

I'd like to apologize about how massive this post became. Explaining code or math in any capacity is difficult to do without providing the necessary context. I've learned this the hard way when teaching students at my community college how to accomplish certain tasks.

I'd also like to emphasize that my methods are purely for demonstration purposes and can easily be modified to make the calculations more simple/complex depending on the developer. The use of player level is a commonly used method that it's essentially standard industry practice. The game should reward the player for leveling up, and my method is the most basic implementation of it.

Finally, I only have coding knowledge that pertains to simulating or solving complex problems. I personally don't have the expertise to develop a game on my own and only offer feedback. Someone like Drages would be far more suitable than me at fixing this game for DH.
 

slick97

Active Member
Dec 2, 2021
554
1,296
Like muschi26 said, RNG is no band-aid for bad game design. Funnily enough, it's usually the giant AAA games overdosing on RNG, not the indie games.


As for balancing the game, all that needs to be done is to make traits inherit more often. (Edit: in terms of breeding grind, not all the anti-quality of life)
Dang, I spent so much time in writing my response mushi that I didn't get to tag your post as well. I'm not expecting anyone to fully read everything, but I'd encourage you to read some of the sections talking about the different implementatjons of RNG.

I figured it be better if I wrote a proper post on what I meant because:
  1. I'm shit at describing what I meant
  2. It's a complex topic that players misunderstand due to lacking coding knowledge

The tl;dr
RNG is inherent in game design for balancing/variability purposes. Things such as bullet spray, critical hits, world events, and various other gameplay aspects all rely on various implementations of RNG.
 

Drages

Member
Game Developer
Jul 30, 2018
207
364
In a breeding game, you need RNG because the breeding nature is RNG. I mean, you child will be a DNA RNG result.

You can put some extras in it but if you add direct manipulations like adding a trait to a neph with a quest, you just get what you want with your own control. This could be used without breaking the game purpose but it should be very limited or hard to do which would add more grind.

At this point, this is mostly about the taste of the player and a low chance RNG could kill the game progress and fun too.

To be honest, I don't understand why people think the Botn is a grindy game. What is the "grind" means for you? Do you wanna get perfect Neph in 30 min? Then what? I like to play the game for at least 10 hours to get the very good ones. You breed for 10 hours yeah because it's fun to get a good one at every mass breading and making other combinations to get better.

I know the world level part is not fun as I expected and it takes time at start but as the pregnant nephs can boost world leveling very much, after the start of the game, it gets a momentum very fast as you can breed your new type nephs with high level old nephs and release them.

Maybe the problem is, people don't know the whole mechanics of the game and they don't know the faster ways so they need to give more time then needed.

As I said, I did not have time to improve those as I kicked from the project. The Botn discord server and the 3 mods were mostly toxic so I did not give a shit to explain everything or make a wiki.

I am asking those questions to get more clear idea from players so I can use it when time has come.

I already got all the plans, functions and ideas for a new breeding game. As I am a huge fan of this type of game, I am just ready to fire something everybody can enjoy and "finished" somehow :p.
 

RubyZeronyka

Active Member
Jul 26, 2020
740
612
In a breeding game, you need RNG because the breeding nature is RNG. I mean, you child will be a DNA RNG result.

You can put some extras in it but if you add direct manipulations like adding a trait to a neph with a quest, you just get what you want with your own control. This could be used without breaking the game purpose but it should be very limited or hard to do which would add more grind.

At this point, this is mostly about the taste of the player and a low chance RNG could kill the game progress and fun too.

To be honest, I don't understand why people think the Botn is a grindy game. What is the "grind" means for you? Do you wanna get perfect Neph in 30 min? Then what? I like to play the game for at least 10 hours to get the very good ones. You breed for 10 hours yeah because it's fun to get a good one at every mass breading and making other combinations to get better.

I know the world level part is not fun as I expected and it takes time at start but as the pregnant nephs can boost world leveling very much, after the start of the game, it gets a momentum very fast as you can breed your new type nephs with high level old nephs and release them.

Maybe the problem is, people don't know the whole mechanics of the game and they don't know the faster ways so they need to give more time then needed.

As I said, I did not have time to improve those as I kicked from the project. The Botn discord server and the 3 mods were mostly toxic so I did not give a shit to explain everything or make a wiki.

I am asking those questions to get more clear idea from players so I can use it when time has come.

I already got all the plans, functions and ideas for a new breeding game. As I am a huge fan of this type of game, I am just ready to fire something everybody can enjoy and "finished" somehow :p.
I think that people and myself we dont have an issue with BotN's default nature so to speak but more like the way Derelict deliberately multiplies it. Like, sure, as you said, there is a lot of natural RNG that is inevitable for the very way things work like getting a hybrid is a chance not a garantee, and having or lacking traits is mostly luck based.

But it started to become a problem when Derelict forces on to you things like the bloody save wipes, the whole progression gates system that locks behind hours of gameplay previously available stuff from minute 1, making mandatory certain steps that before were optional and overall forcing you to think on the most optimal way of aproaching gameplay if you wanna optimize your playtime spend and not having to do the same task for hours until you get it (Which started to make me compare the game to the Soulslike style of games from which Derelict takes inspiration as a concept of "fun").

I compare the grind of BotN with something like Pokemon, you would have to deal with repetitive stuff like training your Pokes to make them stronger and having them evolve and stuff. But imagine that everytime that Pokemon gets a hotfix update it forces you to start from the begining. The game can be grindy by default but enjoyable, however if you have to restart every 4 updates and on top of that another 100 BS things, them you start seeing why we complain about the grind. Its not for the nature of the game itself but more like Dere's (and his diehard fans') deliberate desinterest in adding QoL features.

Anyway, Im looking forward to how your game would be. Wish I could help a bit further but my current knowledge of Unreal is near 0.... Yet XD
 

HeadsExplode

Newbie
Aug 27, 2018
39
55
To be honest, I don't understand why people think the Botn is a grindy game. What is the "grind" means for you? Do you wanna get perfect Neph in 30 min? Then what? I like to play the game for at least 10 hours to get the very good ones. You breed for 10 hours yeah because it's fun to get a good one at every mass breading and making other combinations to get better.
Some people will just be unhappy they have to work at all for progress but I think there is still a lot of room between that 30 minute and 10 hour window for people to get annoyed. I often think and say I like grindy games. Breeders, slave trainers, brothel management, games where you're often slowly making progress. But BOTN stands out as grindy, and "annoyingly grindy", because when you get a goal to work towards, working towards it just isn't any fun or rewarding.
There's a difference I think in the process of achieving a goal in a game being fun and an act of gradual progression, and it being a you simply chipping away at a rock because it's all you can do to get there eventually.

I can enjoy looking through a dozen or two dozen wild nephs for a trait. I stop having fun when it ends up taking 5 dozen. I can enjoy grinding out the world level so I'm rewarded with better random nephs when it amounts to releasing a reasonable number of good nephs that were fun to raise, but not when pumping up the exp of random nephs or doing it 100 more times becomes more practical or the other method doesn't have enough interesting things going on to convince me to do that repeatedly either. I can enjoy grinding fluid out of my stables and random nephs until the amount of money I'm trying to make makes this into a 6 day marathon of clicking the milk button.

None of this is really meant to critique your work on this game since there's really fuck-all you can do if you only get to work on one patch, I'm sure you could have balanced out the systems you were responsible for with time. But I think it's really important to keep in mind that there is a really finnicky balance between an acceptable grind and one that just feels like doing something you don't like over and over, and it's more complex than a simple choice between "Give the player everything for no effort" and "Make them do nothing but bash their dick with a mallet for 5 hours".

Basically I think with grinding: If it isn't fun, keep it short and easy. You can make it longer if it's actually enjoyable and interesting.
 

muschi26

Engaged Member
Jun 22, 2019
2,721
4,088
In a breeding game, you need RNG because the breeding nature is RNG. I mean, you child will be a DNA RNG result.

You can put some extras in it but if you add direct manipulations like adding a trait to a neph with a quest, you just get what you want with your own control. This could be used without breaking the game purpose but it should be very limited or hard to do which would add more grind.

At this point, this is mostly about the taste of the player and a low chance RNG could kill the game progress and fun too.

To be honest, I don't understand why people think the Botn is a grindy game. What is the "grind" means for you? Do you wanna get perfect Neph in 30 min? Then what? I like to play the game for at least 10 hours to get the very good ones. You breed for 10 hours yeah because it's fun to get a good one at every mass breading and making other combinations to get better.

I know the world level part is not fun as I expected and it takes time at start but as the pregnant nephs can boost world leveling very much, after the start of the game, it gets a momentum very fast as you can breed your new type nephs with high level old nephs and release them.

Maybe the problem is, people don't know the whole mechanics of the game and they don't know the faster ways so they need to give more time then needed.

As I said, I did not have time to improve those as I kicked from the project. The Botn discord server and the 3 mods were mostly toxic so I did not give a shit to explain everything or make a wiki.

I am asking those questions to get more clear idea from players so I can use it when time has come.

I already got all the plans, functions and ideas for a new breeding game. As I am a huge fan of this type of game, I am just ready to fire something everybody can enjoy and "finished" somehow :p.
When spoke of eliminating RNG, I was talking generally. Of course it’s necessary to simulate realistic genetics; although, I’m sure a game could be made where, without allowing players to modify traits directly, said traits would always be passed down to offspring, without any RNG; and such a game would be easier to balance for it.

To me, “grind” is any repetitive task that involves no skill expression. Raising world level is a perfect example: one has to breed hundreds of nephelym mindlessly, without regard for any traits, and free them for a sliver of world exp. It could be said that I’m a bit out of my element in a breeding game, where much of the gameplay is by nature repetitive, and I would agree with that; what draws me to these games generally isn’t the gameplay. However, if there is enough variety elsewhere—new areas to discover, new species of monster girls to find, new sex positions to learn, new plot developments to uncover—then I can tolerate a lot of grindy bullshit. Breeders of the Nephelym offered some of that for a short while, when I had just discovered the game; now, it’s another story.

As for the issue of the “perfect neph” … If by a perfect nephelym, you mean one of max level with every single trait at max rank, then I don’t think it should ever be required to make one. If a player, on their own initiative, wants to try to optimize for a perfect neph and enjoys doing so, great; but that’s infinitely less interesting to me than trying to make a neph with a few specific traits, tailormade to suit one client’s preferences (or my own). In a game like this, requiring multiple traits on a single neph also increases the time it takes to breed that neph exponentially, which is another reason I think the number of traits in mandatory requests should be kept to a more reasonable amount.

You also mention game mechanics; in this case, I think Breeders does a terrible job of teaching players its mechanics. I had no idea that pregnant nephelym counted more towards world levels—and even then, is it really worthwhile? because a pregnant neph is basically two neph; it could very well be more efficient to just wait out the birth and release both, or keep both and get them pregnant to get more nephelym to release later, etc.
 
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nulnil

Member
May 18, 2021
471
351
RNG is inherent in game design for balancing/variability purposes. Things such as bullet spray, critical hits, world events, and various other gameplay aspects all rely on various implementations of RNG.
In strict terms of balancing, handling RNG comes down to how well the player can predict (or even manipulate) the results.

  • The bullet spread of a shotgun, while random, is still high. In order for the most bullets to hit, the player knows they must move closer in before firing.
  • Some games like CSGO decrease spread when you stand still. Players who wish to shoot at further targets must stay still, which manipulates the chances of a bullet to hit.
Both of these are good ways to deal with RNG, because the players can either manipulate, or predict the results and strategize around them.

But then there's the wacky, unpredictable RNG that goes beyond variation. In the roguelike , an enemy seen pretty early on is the alchemist, who throws potions of differing liquids. Certain ones, like acid or lava, are an almost guarenteed instant kill even for players nearing the last layer, but then again he might end up throwing harmless water at you.

A better way to design this alchemist is to either have them only throw one type of potion (still chosen randomly), or have all alchemists throw a potion dealing a moderate amount of damage. This makes them able to be strategized around and just more consistent in general.

While BoTN certainly isn't a casino like Noita, it still suffers from RNG. The main issue is the lack of tools or ways to manipulate the offspring produced. As of now, all you can do is select who fucks who and hope for the best. I've thought of 3 ways to make breeding easier:
  1. Plain better results: Like I've said, increasing the chance for traits to pass on and such would make breeding much easier and take less time. Even if it is a crude solution.
  2. Proper Tools: Essentially, if there was some way to add specific traits or influence results, you could get what you wished for faster. Yes, it is a vague suggestion but there's plenty of ways it could be done.
  3. Less RNG: Pretty much, a rework of the breeding mechanic that requires the player to analyze traits more, but also gives more predictable results. Would probably nuke the save files.
 

HeadsExplode

Newbie
Aug 27, 2018
39
55
However, if there is enough variety elsewhere—new areas to discover, new species of monster girls to find, new sex positions to learn, new plot developments to uncover—then I can tolerate a lot of grindy bullshit. Breeders of the Nephelym offered some of that for a short while, when I had just discovered the game; now, it’s another story.
That's really good to mention. When you get a goal to chase, it tends to be your only goal. You're not also simultaneously working on another one or progressing it on the side, it's all you have to focus on. So you're just repeating the one task that feels optimal for that as your only bit of gameplay for the next hour or however long. This is something, you hope, would be improved with time as the game gets more content. But it feels like there isn't much more to look forward to.

----------
This all got the ranting part of my brain going, sorry.
I wanted to add too I think for me one of the major reasons it feels grindy in a bad way is because the reward at the end of the grind is just not worth the effort it asks. The way it is now, the "grind" or time investment/rng fight for a fully finished game is there but the content and your "rewards" aren't. A mediocre sex scene? Another cockblock key to repeat the process in a new area that plays the exact same? Turning off tentacles and demons that are already easy to avoid?
Maybe if this game or NuBreedingSeason has more rewards like items and new shops, storylines, farm buildings/buffs/npcs, features that allow you more control over your neph raising(Camilla with trait% increase potions? Neph body mod(limited character creator) shop), or EARLIER PORTAL ACCESS that contributes to a smoother play experience, then they have more leeway for more demanding quests etc... As it is your reward for tough grinds is basically 1) more grind or 2) an animation.

This game in particular it seems like DH wanted to work on the general gameplay loop first, which is fine.. But it really should be scaled for the rewards you're giving players, even in pre-release builds and especially if it takes this long, or it gives your game a "grindy but not rewarding" reputation. Hell, I think planned demos are much better for this reason - more control over what the player can do and get, easier to temporarily limit the grind or just not turn on/introduce options that aren't ready yet...

"I want the perfect neph to be hard to build, and whole new areas to take effort (and time...walking...) to get to!" - Yeah, sounds good... When the game is actually finished with all the features and content you envision it having, not when half the paths you planned to get there aren't even implemented yet and the world is barren. And no, I don't mean just take the builder cat girl and put her behind a 5 hour grind now! New, engaging content and rewards! Not chopping up the bare bones of your game with more gating! :ROFLMAO:
This is why turning the sex positions into pawsmatti world-gated rewards didn't seem to go over well I think. It was just changed into a harder to get reward because... it was already sitting there, I guess? It was a great opportunity to offer players something new and reward a quality of life sort of thing so it just felt worse to the experience overall.
 

FenNniX

New Member
Feb 5, 2021
4
1
I downloaded the game recently and tried to play. But didn't find the way to obtain the resourses to buy houses to keep nephelims. Any help will be appreciated
 

Squark ⚧❤️

Conversation Conqueror
Jun 16, 2017
7,036
7,831
I downloaded the game recently and tried to play. But didn't find the way to obtain the resourses to buy houses to keep nephelims. Any help will be appreciated
There should be a character named Fern on the farm. Fuck some money out of her. It's a small amount but after a few wasted days, you ought to have enough to get one barn.
 

Spillthebeans

Active Member
Jun 21, 2017
719
1,243
To be honest, I don't understand why people think the Botn is a grindy game. What is the "grind" means for you? Do you wanna get perfect Neph in 30 min? Then what? I like to play the game for at least 10 hours to get the very good ones. You breed for 10 hours yeah because it's fun to get a good one at every mass breading and making other combinations to get better.

I am asking those questions to get more clear idea from players so I can use it when time has come.
Ways to adjust the rng in a certain direction would help mitigate what makes it so frustrating, such as items that may increase the chance of an outcome (skin color, traits, features, etc). What makes botn unrewarding is that everything you breed is superficial, there's nothing for you to pit your perfect creations stats against, no dick measuring contest to see just how much better you are compared to other people. It doesn't help that almost every character looks the same which only makes it that much worse. Take slave matrix, for example, there's nothing to compare your creatures stats to but the sheer amount of combinations more than makes up for it. It's always interesting to see what combos you can come up with and you can come up with some pretty wild outcomes. I would absolutely love the grind if I had some goal to grind against, some high, almost unobtainable objective rather than creating a slightly larger/smaller clone with a couple of accessories stapled on that has the same lackluster face and same boring animations. Speaking of animations, the game needs more and there needs to be more aggressive motions, it feels too floaty and I can't get into it, reaper has what I would consider the "best" animation but at this point I'd take quantity just to make the sex less repetitive.
has there been any word from Direct's discord?
Dude went from making a breeding game to pushing dildos, his discord is dead, people don't even post presets anymore.
 

slick97

Active Member
Dec 2, 2021
554
1,296
While BoTN certainly isn't a casino like Noita, it still suffers from RNG. The main issue is the lack of tools or ways to manipulate the offspring produced. As of now, all you can do is select who fucks who and hope for the best. I've thought of 3 ways to make breeding easier:
  1. Plain better results: Like I've said, increasing the chance for traits to pass on and such would make breeding much easier and take less time. Even if it is a crude solution.
  2. Proper Tools: Essentially, if there was some way to add specific traits or influence results, you could get what you wished for faster. Yes, it is a vague suggestion but there's plenty of ways it could be done.
  3. Less RNG: Pretty much, a rework of the breeding mechanic that requires the player to analyze traits more, but also gives more predictable results. Would probably nuke the save files.
Your entire post honestly deserves more recognition for understanding game design better than 99% of the people in this thread. It also articulates the differences between proper use of RNG (i.e. predictability despite random elements), and an improper use of it.

Of the 3 suggestions you gave, option 2 is what I would recommend for DH. It allows quite a bit of creative freedom in what modifies base chances and how it's done. It could be that we can create potions from cum/milk that increases the likelihood of some traits while decreasing the chance of others, or it could be boosted based on environmental/location factors.



A possible scenario:
Let's say that a player wants to increase the chance of getting the "hedonist" trait alongside increasing fertility. It's established to the player that demons tend to naturally spawn with the hedonist trait, so collecting either sperm or milk could be used as the first ingredient. It's also established that Threae (or however the bee people are spelled) and bunnies reproduce at higher rates, so using their semen as the second incredient would increase the fertility stat. Combining both ingredients would give you both benefits that could be used on a single nephelym.

We could expand this further by adding an additional element: a base for the potion. The potion base could either increase potency (higher chances and stat changes), increase duration (last for multiple breeding sessions), or be applied to multiple nephelym. The bases could easily be added to a vendor list tied to the goblin girl in town since she is established as the town alchemist.
 

captain_orange

New Member
Aug 28, 2019
5
1
I'm stuck at "Widow's Juicy Elf" tasks, I play this game for 30 hours there has never see "Juicy"、" Kindhearted"、"Meaty"、" Nurturing"、"Nymphomaniac" or "Stoic" traits, Do these traits really exist?
 

Dirgha

Member
Mar 11, 2020
131
70
I'm stuck at "Widow's Juicy Elf" tasks, I play this game for 30 hours there has never see "Juicy"、" Kindhearted"、"Meaty"、" Nurturing"、"Nymphomaniac" or "Stoic" traits, Do these traits really exist?
To see more traits, you have to increase Worlds level (not sure if the corresponding cheat still works in the newest version).

I'd suggest to focus on catching the kinds of nephelym that tend to have certain traits:


As far as I remember, Titans, Bovaur, and Slime often have the Juicy trait. Hunt them till you get one, and then crossbreed it with Elves.
 

Squark ⚧❤️

Conversation Conqueror
Jun 16, 2017
7,036
7,831
any new incest mods?
Why do you need a new one?
It's linked to in the Opening Post. READ EVERY WORD CAREFULLY.
To keep it simple:
1) Enable View File Extensions (Google is your friend). This part is actually essential.
2) In the same folder that has OBF.exe, create a blank text document.
3) Rename that New Text Document.txt to imma and change the extension from .txt to .degenerate. Okay it when it asks if you're sure.
3i) The File Type must not say that it's a text file. It has to say DEGENERATE file. That's why Step 1 is vital.

That's it. I don't think the method has changed in the few builds since I played last.
 
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