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acusrola

Member
May 30, 2020
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666
Yeah, i have another problem when after restarting the game it does not start, if I do not delete all saves. However, while I'm in the game, all saves work and load normally.
That's why it didn't start? Because I made saves? Fuck me.

I was about to post a few days ago about me being blind or something since I saw no way to save, but I actually loaded to the game and saw a loading screen hint to save using [P]. I thought, great now I can finally save and don't have to restart my progress... But making saves makes the game not able to start?
 

Gaisa

Member
Mar 2, 2018
271
230
That's why it didn't start? Because I made saves? Fuck me.

I was about to post a few days ago about me being blind or something since I saw no way to save, but I actually loaded to the game and saw a loading screen hint to save using [P]. I thought, great now I can finally save and don't have to restart my progress... But making saves makes the game not able to start?
Newp, it failed to start because the save game system was broken. The Devs have fixed it in the latest version, which is patreon only
 

TheInternetIsForThis

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2020
1,360
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1 update every 3 months, so we'll have to wait until April
If it's every three months, the next Steam update will be either the second update of May, or the first of June.

That's why it didn't start? Because I made saves? Fuck me.

I was about to post a few days ago about me being blind or something since I saw no way to save, but I actually loaded to the game and saw a loading screen hint to save using [P]. I thought, great now I can finally save and don't have to restart my progress... But making saves makes the game not able to start?
According to the developers, there was a bug tied to having too many saves that would result in excessively slow loading of the game, potentially even not starting at all. Seeing as I was running around in the affected versions with a couple dozen saves at any given time, I assume it took more than just a few saves to cause the issue. That's probably a good sign that there may be something else at work with the issue you're having.
 
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Gaisa

Member
Mar 2, 2018
271
230
If it's every three months, the next Steam update will be either the second update of May, or the first of June.


According to the developers, there was a bug tied to having too many saves that would result in excessively slow loading of the game, potentially even not starting at all. Seeing as I was running around in the affected versions with a couple dozen saves at any given time, I assume it took more than just a few saves to cause the issue. That's probably a good sign that there may be something else at work with the issue you're having.
There's a secondary issue I noticed with the older versions, and thats how the "auto save" option ADDED a new save each time it saved. Thats all well and good if it saves every few minutes, but there should be a cap to how many auto saved files there are (as in overwrite the oldest one of six, like how other game systems do it).
As a result of this problem, you could end up with THOUSANDS of saves cluttering up the game's save cache and that could easily overload the game and cause it to fail spectacularly, possibly crashing your computer in the process.
 
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acusrola

Member
May 30, 2020
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666
Combined 20+ years of development experience... Don't get me wrong, I have like 20 hours of combined experience in programming so I can't really criticize much. But as TheInternetIsForThis said, it's like there has been zero effort put into the actual testing of the game.
Newp, it failed to start because the save game system was broken. The Devs have fixed it in the latest version, which is patreon only
Patreon only, excellent. Don't get me wrong I'm pirating so I'm not exactly a priority here, but if I have the steam version then I can only assume the legit steam version is also broken...

According to the developers, there was a bug tied to having too many saves that would result in excessively slow loading of the game, potentially even not starting at all. Seeing as I was running around in the affected versions with a couple dozen saves at any given time, I assume it took more than just a few saves to cause the issue. That's probably a good sign that there may be something else at work with the issue you're having.
I'll try to delete the saves or at least the majority of them, maybe that would work.
 

NoStepOnSnek

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,167
1,286
Combined 20+ years of development experience... Don't get me wrong, I have like 20 hours of combined experience in programming so I can't really criticize much. But as TheInternetIsForThis said, it's like there has been zero effort put into the actual testing of the game.


Patreon only, excellent. Don't get me wrong I'm pirating so I'm not exactly a priority here, but if I have the steam version then I can only assume the legit steam version is also broken...



I'll try to delete the saves or at least the majority of them, maybe that would work.
Say what you will, but is there a better indication of experience in the gaming industry than making something that is shiny, buggy and ever so slightly pushing the boundaries on existing payment models?
 

TheInternetIsForThis

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2020
1,360
3,219
Say what you will, but is there a better indication of experience in the gaming industry than making something that is shiny, buggy and ever so slightly pushing the boundaries on existing payment models?
As management or marketing, probably not. As an artist, programmer, or other developer? No, generally speaking the ability to do things is a better indicator. If this is a team of people whose experience in the game industry was purely the former, things may not pan out the way we want long-term, which is why I set up that post to track things.
 

acusrola

Member
May 30, 2020
263
666
Say what you will, but is there a better indication of experience in the gaming industry than making something that is shiny, buggy and ever so slightly pushing the boundaries on existing payment models?
Shiny: Graphical fidelity is not imo a good yardstick for anything UNLESS that is the whole point, as in demonstrating new rendering technologies. I don't think it's a good yardstick because graphics rarely mean anything, there are plenty of games with "shit" graphics that are incredibly popular off the top of my head: Minecraft and Valheim. Even if one doesn't care for the games, they are popular and financial successes.

Buggy: I think modern atmosphere really has pushed this to us. OTA updates mean that devs (read: producers and execs) can push a game out quicker because they know they can fix the game later. There are (no source, I watched a video or smth) so called shippable bugs which are noted but not concerning enough to warrant fixing before release. Day 1 patches etc. mean that a game being buggy really doesn't matter - apart from making later releases being more buggy acceptable. This kind of atmosphere, or work ethic, I think, is found from the smallest one man indie studios to massive AAA ones like CDPR or Ubisoft.

Pushing the boundaries: What does this mean in the end? If we look at games from a PURELY mechanical stand point and ignore art, writing, music, etc., most games inside a genre are incredibly similar (surprise that's probably the definition of a genre). Open world games have a world for you to explore and the world often takes precedence over the story - if such exists. There are of course some genre defining titles such as the souls games, which practically created a genre for themselves.

I probably missed the point of your post, but I will say this. I have zero interest in working as a developer, I know how god awful the game development world is that I don't even want to try. If I had the artistic skills I would like to work as a concept and/or environmental artist - but I don't so I'll stick to engineering lmao.
 

TheInternetIsForThis

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2020
1,360
3,219
Shiny: Graphical fidelity is not imo a good yardstick for anything UNLESS that is the whole point, as in demonstrating new rendering technologies. I don't think it's a good yardstick because graphics rarely mean anything, there are plenty of games with "shit" graphics that are incredibly popular off the top of my head: Minecraft and Valheim. Even if one doesn't care for the games, they are popular and financial successes.
I'd argue that graphics in particular help play a role with AO titles, because while it's possible to sell a purely or mostly text-based adult game, it's much easier to sell one with shiny, top-of-the-line graphics because that has a much wider audience. This is why Studio Fow's Subverse is worth paying attention to once it goes on sale, because that's a 3D porn movie studio, specialized in graphics, making the jump to porn games. If that does well, it's a good litmus test for AO games to follow.

Buggy: I think modern atmosphere really has pushed this to us. OTA updates mean that devs (read: producers and execs) can push a game out quicker because they know they can fix the game later. There are (no source, I watched a video or smth) so called shippable bugs which are noted but not concerning enough to warrant fixing before release. Day 1 patches etc. mean that a game being buggy really doesn't matter - apart from making later releases being more buggy acceptable. This kind of atmosphere, or work ethic, I think, is found from the smallest one man indie studios to massive AAA ones like CDPR or Ubisoft.
So, fun fact from a long-term perspective: people often learn aspects of game design by internalizing things from games they've played, as much as by actually actively trying to learn things. This is why, over the last twenty years or so, you've seen a top-down trend starting with AAA games and ending with indies where game design has shifted, pretty dramatically. We're now seeing indie games, like Eco and Valheim, that use some core time based mechanics that are, frankly, the opposite of fun and originate from free to play (but not free to enjoy) mobile games and have managed to permeate the entire industry. In many ways, the industry at large is beginning to forget what makes a game "fun" in favor of mechanics that rely on addiction.

Pushing the boundaries: What does this mean in the end? If we look at games from a PURELY mechanical stand point and ignore art, writing, music, etc., most games inside a genre are incredibly similar (surprise that's probably the definition of a genre). Open world games have a world for you to explore and the world often takes precedence over the story - if such exists. There are of course some genre defining titles such as the souls games, which practically created a genre for themselves.
I'd say it depends on the genre. Take action/adventure games, which vary from Breath of the Wild to Tomb Raider. While both of them involve combat and exploration, the means of accomplishing those are dramatically different. Portal is technically a first person shooter, but it was made as a puzzle game. Pokémon and the older Final Fantasy titles are both turn-based combat-focused jRPGs. The classic Mario and Sonic games are both straightforward platformers, but a few core mechanical choices make them feel like entirely different games.

The point being that there's a difference between placing a game in a genre, and mimicking a specific subset or game from the genre.

I probably missed the point of your post, but I will say this. I have zero interest in working as a developer, I know how god awful the game development world is that I don't even want to try. If I had the artistic skills I would like to work as a concept and/or environmental artist - but I don't so I'll stick to engineering lmao.
The point appears to have been a sarcastic comment about the state of the game industry, especially as exemplified by companies like EA and Activision Blizzard.
 

Rattanak

Member
Jul 11, 2019
194
101
This game is 30 USD on Steam...? and it not even completed...

 

Gaisa

Member
Mar 2, 2018
271
230
I'll try to delete the saves or at least the majority of them, maybe that would work.
IF it does and you get the game to load, press "o" in game to open the load game window, and use the settings there to TURN OFF the auto save option, that should help
 

acusrola

Member
May 30, 2020
263
666
I'd argue that graphics in particular help play a role with AO titles, because while it's possible to sell a purely or mostly text-based adult game, it's much easier to sell one with shiny, top-of-the-line graphics because that has a much wider audience. This is why Studio Fow's Subverse is worth paying attention to once it goes on sale, because that's a 3D porn movie studio, specialized in graphics, making the jump to porn games. If that does well, it's a good litmus test for AO games to follow.
Good point on graphics and AO, I have to agree. If you can differentiate yourself from the competition it's always worth doing - to a point, anyway. But seeing how popular certain AVNs are, I would still argue that graphics are only A pillar on which the game has to stand. Having "good writing," an interesting story and interesting characters will make imo for a more memorable experience no matter the graphics. Though I will say that I'm most likely biased by my own experiences and preferences.
So, fun fact from a long-term perspective: people often learn aspects of game design by internalizing things from games they've played, as much as by actually actively trying to learn things. This is why, over the last twenty years or so, you've seen a top-down trend starting with AAA games and ending with indies where game design has shifted, pretty dramatically. We're now seeing indie games, like Eco and Valheim, that use some core time based mechanics that are, frankly, the opposite of fun and originate from free to play (but not free to enjoy) mobile games and have managed to permeate the entire industry. In many ways, the industry at large is beginning to forget what makes a game "fun" in favor of mechanics that rely on addiction.
I understand your point on the design shift, but not your example though. I haven't played ECO, though I have played a bit of Valheim, but I don't get the "core time based mechanics." Do you mean the food/health/stamina bar system? I would see it more as a system, though you did mention exactly that. However, none of it is behind a paywall nor is it imo incredibly grindy to be "opposite of fun". I do think that hunger mechanic can go and die a painful death.

I'm probably a bit too casual to understand mechanical development as you put it, nevertheless I will say that investing into "addiction" instead of fun is a good move from a business stand point. Though for a game like Valheim it matters neither here nor there, as there are no "recurring payments" to be profited from. An ego boost for the devs, maybe, for having 5+ million players?

But you need to have some challenge in a game to offer the gamers™ some sense of pride and accomplishment for their overcoming of said challenges. Games require some sort of a reward system - obviously it needs to be balanced somehow - to be fun. The fun might be the "sense of accomplishment" from overcoming a difficult (but hopefully fair) level, chainsawing through a demons head, or seeing the next "page" in a gripping story. Sure some art project might be just watching paint dry and that can be fun in a certain ironic sense, but I can't imagine it would last for more than a few hours. Though I will say that certain games benefit from having no real challenge - I for one enjoy playing city builders occasionally without limits, just for the sake of designing a city.

I'd say it depends on the genre. Take action/adventure games, which vary from Breath of the Wild to Tomb Raider. While both of them involve combat and exploration, the means of accomplishing those are dramatically different. Portal is technically a first person shooter, but it was made as a puzzle game. Pokémon and the older Final Fantasy titles are both turn-based combat-focused jRPGs. The classic Mario and Sonic games are both straightforward platformers, but a few core mechanical choices make them feel like entirely different games.

The point being that there's a difference between placing a game in a genre, and mimicking a specific subset or game from the genre.
That is the problem with less defined genres. "Action/Adventure" means very little really, because your examples could arguably also be categorized into survival games or platformers. I think the correct way would be to consider these terms as both genres and elements.

An "FPS genre" game is usually a game where you are some lad/lass with a gun shooting "enemies." But on that merit without further defining it, GTA V is also an FPS and so is RDR2 - and I don't think many would categorize them as that - not straight anyway. BF and CoD could be part of a "military-game" genre with heavy FPS-elements, GTA V and RDR2 an "open world game" with a story focus and FPS-elements. Then we can further muddy the waters by defining FPS, first person shooter. In Portal you do have a portal gun, but it's not a "straight" shooter. You have enemies in it, but you kill them using the environment. It is an FP game, but that doesn't sound nearly as sexy as "FPS." In reality though, the FPS-term really doesn't include the shooter part as any game played from a 1st person perspective can be considering an FPS in general.

There's probably a language barrier here, a certain lack of understanding beneath the surface, and me being a mindless consooomer. I also have a bad tendency to ramble, so hopefully at least part of the above is somewhat coherent. Nevertheless, it is good to argue (positively) about these things as it expands ones own perspective.
IF it does and you get the game to load, press "o" in game to open the load game window, and use the settings there to TURN OFF the auto save option, that should help
I'll keep that in mind for next time
 

TheInternetIsForThis

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2020
1,360
3,219
I understand your point on the design shift, but not your example though. I haven't played ECO, though I have played a bit of Valheim, but I don't get the "core time based mechanics." Do you mean the food/health/stamina bar system? I would see it more as a system, though you did mention exactly that. However, none of it is behind a paywall nor is it imo incredibly grindy to be "opposite of fun". I do think that hunger mechanic can go and die a painful death.

I'm probably a bit too casual to understand mechanical development as you put it, nevertheless I will say that investing into "addiction" instead of fun is a good move from a business stand point. Though for a game like Valheim it matters neither here nor there, as there are no "recurring payments" to be profited from. An ego boost for the devs, maybe, for having 5+ million players?

But you need to have some challenge in a game to offer the gamers™ some sense of pride and accomplishment for their overcoming of said challenges. Games require some sort of a reward system - obviously it needs to be balanced somehow - to be fun. The fun might be the "sense of accomplishment" from overcoming a difficult (but hopefully fair) level, chainsawing through a demons head, or seeing the next "page" in a gripping story. Sure some art project might be just watching paint dry and that can be fun in a certain ironic sense, but I can't imagine it would last for more than a few hours. Though I will say that certain games benefit from having no real challenge - I for one enjoy playing city builders occasionally without limits, just for the sake of designing a city.
Right, so, I was relying on commentary from a friend who had played Valheim seeing as I don't have a copy, and they had been playing with a server they set up rather than singleplayer. The difference could be something the game does for multiplayer, I lack the necessary context. But I can give you the breakdown of what ECO does:

First, singleplayer or server doesn't matter for ECO, mechanically it's the same. Second, it's all real time. Things you plant take a literal real-life week or more to grow, researching a new technology can take more than a day. Crafting and building things? Hours to days spent on the task. (And I don't mean hours to days on a building. I mean hours to days on a single tool or part.) The game is meant to be run as an always-running server, and supposedly it's a commentary about progress versus the environment, but even so. This is a game that's currently marked "Very Positive" on steam that has a harsher "wait for it" real-time mechanic than many mobile gacha games.

And it's not like we don't know forcing players to wait is false difficulty that can better be served in other ways. We learned that in the late 90s and early 00s, with things like the change from the Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask "wait for the right moment to attack" combat to the Wind Waker/Twilight Princess skill and combo combat.

Besides, that's not what time is being used as for a game like Eco. If it was, I wouldn't be complaining. It's being used as a currency, only unlike gacha games there is no bypass (aside from going into the literal hundreds of server configuration settings and changing things, but that's something that I assume the average player never does.) That was just one specific mechanical example of what I mean about losing a sense of fun. There are plenty of things to consider that are more relevant to our example, like how VNs used to often include a few joke endings that had nothing to do with the goal but were amusing nontheless.

As for addiction versus fun, it's a pacing versus reward sort of thing. That's often tied into the early gains to slow grind cycle that's been rolling through the game industry for a while, but. You gave some very good examples of cases where fun won out, such as being able to unlimit a city builder, or chainsawing through hordes of enemies in Doom. A good example of games that rely on addiction pathways instead of being fun is pretty much anything by Paradox Interactive. Their games rely on keeping you busy and feeding you constant input, and while you can mod things in or change settings to the extreme to get to a mechanically fun standpoint, by default games like Stellaris are hours of constant but mostly empty engagement. A good way to evaluate this is the question "Am I grinding so I can grind more, or am I grinding so I can do something?" The former is likely never going to let you out of the cycle, while the latter at least has a chance for something else.
 
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TheInternetIsForThis

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Mar 4, 2020
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1.png



Hi all,

Just a short post to update you all with what we're planning over 2021. We know it's not at pretty as the last one, but we have too much to cram in for that more image-heavy format. This is not everything we will deliver this year, simply the major items we're working on. We consider this a target baseline of what you can expect 2021 content, however we also hope to surprise you with additional content each update. It's worth highlighting that game mechanics such as sailing/swimming, or combat mechanics such as stealth, are no longer considered separate stages in the roadmap - instead these will be delivered incrementally as part of the background monthly game improvements across 2021.

Biomes are also removed from the roadmap, as we'll be delivering these as part of the 'expanded world' element. Explaining the specifics of why would stray into spoilers, but suffice to say there are more varied lands than sand and rock on the horizon.

For those Anubites and Demigods wondering when their personal, persistent shrines will be accessible in-game, look no further than the Tomb of the Ascended. Not only will all Ascended Patrons (including ex-patrons) have their names recorded on the engravings of this hallowed place, but the ancient structure houses many long forgotten shrines that are only now being rediscovered, drawing in worshipers from far and wide. This imposing building is also the site of the Hall of the Founders, the home of the exclusive founder content.

Please be aware that we are still in pre-alpha and that this is an outline plan only; timings may vary depending on development priorities. We will update this roadmap should we adjust the order of content delivery or add additional items to it.

If you have any questions - such as why 'feature x' isn't listed on the roadmap - head on over to Discord and ping us a message.

Thank you again for all of your support - community engagement with the project has been overwhelmingly positive and we really appreciate each and every one of your for your support in making Carnal Instinct the best it can be.

Team Carnal Instinct
 

acusrola

Member
May 30, 2020
263
666
Right, so, I was relying on commentary from a friend who had played Valheim seeing as I don't have a copy, and they had been playing with a server they set up rather than singleplayer. The difference could be something the game does for multiplayer, I lack the necessary context. But I can give you the breakdown of what ECO does:

First, singleplayer or server doesn't matter for ECO, mechanically it's the same. Second, it's all real time. Things you plant take a literal real-life week or more to grow, researching a new technology can take more than a day. Crafting and building things? Hours to days spent on the task. (And I don't mean hours to days on a building. I mean hours to days on a single tool or part.) The game is meant to be run as an always-running server, and supposedly it's a commentary about progress versus the environment, but even so. This is a game that's currently marked "Very Positive" on steam that has a harsher "wait for it" real-time mechanic than many mobile gacha games.

And it's not like we don't know forcing players to wait is false difficulty that can better be served in other ways. We learned that in the late 90s and early 00s, with things like the change from the Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask "wait for the right moment to attack" combat to the Wind Waker/Twilight Princess skill and combo combat.

Besides, that's not what time is being used as for a game like Eco. If it was, I wouldn't be complaining. It's being used as a currency, only unlike gacha games there is no bypass (aside from going into the literal hundreds of server configuration settings and changing things, but that's something that I assume the average player never does.) That was just one specific mechanical example of what I mean about losing a sense of fun. There are plenty of things to consider that are more relevant to our example, like how VNs used to often include a few joke endings that had nothing to do with the goal but were amusing nontheless.

As for addiction versus fun, it's a pacing versus reward sort of thing. That's often tied into the early gains to slow grind cycle that's been rolling through the game industry for a while, but. You gave some very good examples of cases where fun won out, such as being able to unlimit a city builder, or chainsawing through hordes of enemies in Doom. A good example of games that rely on addiction pathways instead of being fun is pretty much anything by Paradox Interactive. Their games rely on keeping you busy and feeding you constant input, and while you can mod things in or change settings to the extreme to get to a mechanically fun standpoint, by default games like Stellaris are hours of constant but mostly empty engagement. A good way to evaluate this is the question "Am I grinding so I can grind more, or am I grinding so I can do something?" The former is likely never going to let you out of the cycle, while the latter at least has a chance for something else.
Holy hell ECO sounds awful. As you said, if it's a commentary on environmentalism I can forgive it, I think - mostly because I will not spend a single second on it myself.

As I read your point on "pacing vs. reward" I immediately thought of FO4 vs FO3 and NV. I think all three of those games were made in quite drastically different atmospheres. FO4 is quite front loaded - if you go by the way the story tries to guide you - as you get a piece of power armor during the first hour or so and you have an OMGWTFBBQ fight against a deathclaw. It then devolves into a bog standard vengeance / pursuit story that has some interesting elements for a bethesda title that are left completely unutilized. If we're to only compare the power armor aspect, the games are radically different. In FO3 and NV you actually have to go through training to use it, making it difficult to obtain and a reward. As a slightly tangent note, I wonder if it's due to changing game design or rather a certain change in our society. Many people might suffer with low attention span due to our hyper active social media and news cycles - we're always looking for the next thing - and thus struggle with being bored or rather not being rewarded all the time. Though then, I suppose ECO provides the other extreme of forcing one's escapism back into reality by having week long plant growth times lmfao.

I think RDR2 and the later R* titles (GTA V, really) are good examples of rewarding the player. RDR2s singleplayer campaign is - to me - 10/10. I have pet peeves, the experience wasn't perfect, but on the whole it was amazing. Though I don't have the critical thinking or writing knowledge or whatever to really put it into proper words - art, movies, stories, etc. tend to go over the head of an average consoomer. But then compare it to the online "campaign" or rather part of the game. It's shit. R* released it as a $5 or something title recently, which ONLY includes the MP making their dedication very clear. I've played it for a few hours with a friend of mine, and it is tear jerkingly boring and grindy. And what do you get? A few dollars in game per mission to spend on items that cost hundreds - I might be exaggerating but the point stands, in the end it's all digital bits that leave nothing for the player as soon as they log out. The story? To me it was an emotional rollercoaster, with twists and turns. Spoilers for RDR2 just in case: and after you've spent some 60-120 hours with a single character, you've grown to know them, what their dreams are, what their past is - and then to see it end, it fucking hits you. In the multiplayer, there is no connection: the PC is mute, the missions are fun enough on their own but awful to play in MP, etc., etc. In the end it's a gripping story that you'll remember in SP vs. MP shit dollars that have shit value due to massive inflation used on shitty cosmetics that have zero real value and probably very little subjective value. My main point is that RDR2 provides those examples of rewarding the player in two extreme ways. SP is rewarding for the character interactions alone - if you care about it, VS. multiplayer which has been made to be as addicting and monetizable as possible by hitting that reward system.

This has been a great convo, thank you for the great arguments and points.
 
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