VN Ren'Py Completed Chasing Beth [v1.0.2] [Tora Productions]

[blackmagic616]

What you're doing isn't feedback.

Because feedback can only be positive? Otherwise, it isn't a feedback?

You misinterpreted my intent in a large number of places spanning many games, and you've refused to believe anyone who has tried to clarify it.

I believe what I see. I'm sorry to say this, but your intentions come second.
As the author, you know everything about universes you create. Hence, you know all about the thoughts and intentions of all characters. But how you put it into words is another thing. I believe that moskyx is right when it comes to your intentions. To be honest, I never doubted it. But that's not what we can find in the game. This is the exact problem with "Scared in Suburbia". You thought about one thing, but wrote something else. Just like your heroine.
I believe that I have described my arguments sufficiently consistently. If for some reason you don't want to listen, in fact there isn't much room for discussion here.
If I were to complain about the graphic artifacts (broken scenes/renders) in "Saving Chloe" (I mean the training room with all the heroines), nobody would try to turn this round. However, when it comes to text and it's not just a typo, for some reasons everyone has a problem with it.

You're not complaining about the games. You're complaining about me.

No, at least until you don't identify yourself with your game. Do you, Tlaero? Because I don't really want to talk about your sexual boundaries or fetishes. I don't want to talk about your sexual experiences or even your feelings related to them. I wanna talk about what I see in your games. Are you able to distinguish these things?

It feels like I have hurt you, and, if so, I'm sorry for doing so. If you'd like to talk about that, let's talk.

I'd like to talk about the game, not about you. The question is whether you want.

 

[Lucifer]

Because feedback can only be positive? Otherwise, it isn't a feedback?

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I really appreciate seeing people taking time to analyse and reflect about their experiences, in this case, a game they played. It's clear you've played Tlaero's games with attention and care, and I thank you for sharing your point of view.
But please, notice how aggressive you've been in your posts: that's not helpful and definitely not the right way to make Tlaero want to open a discussion with you.
She's not writing in this forum because she has to, she's here because she wants to. Since her presence here is optional, as well as her willingness to reply to our posts, I believe we should be respectful, kind and definitely not forceful.
I really don't mean to discuss the content of your posts, but I strongly advise you to write them in a tone that would make people want to write back.
People writing back in this forum are gifting us their time and energy, and they deserve our gratitude and respect for doing so.

 

[blackmagic616]

But please, notice how aggressive you've been in your posts: that's not helpful and definitely not the right way to make Tlaero want to open a discussion with you.

I fail to see any aggression in my posts. If it exists, I can assure you it was not intended. It may be due to my lack of writing skills, limited language knowledge or something else. Anyway, there is now way I could do something about it right now.
On the other hand, I see a bit of passive-aggressive behavior in the creators' statements. Something like this: If you don't like my game, it must mean you expect a fuckfest, because there is nothing else you could complain about. And I won't turn my precious erotic games into some cheap porn games, because I prefer to stay with this NICHE!
The problem is that I've never asked for a porn game with the harem route, where some hobbledehoy is successfully hitting on all the women (probably including family members) with cheap texts and by using sexual harassment or blackmailing. And I don't think anyone here asked for it.
Although both the authors' statements and some of the content in their games offended me, I doubt that anyone would rewrite it to make me feel better. So maybe let's just focus on the specifics (i.e. answering questions) instead.

She's not writing in this forum because she has to, she's here because she wants to.

The question is, is she here to receive feedbacks (whatever they are: positive, negative or mixed), or just to collect applause? Because in the second case, my participation in this discussion is kind of pointless.

I really don't mean to discuss the content of your posts, but I strongly advise you to write them in a tone that would make people want to write back.
People writing back in this forum are gifting us their time and energy, and they deserve our gratitude and respect for doing so.

I have already told them what I like about their games, what I don't, and what I miss in them. I have nothing else to add at the moment.
The real problem is that she completely missed my point. Either she didn't understand it or she didn't want to. I don't think I can do anything about it.

 

[bingolebongo]

As far as I know, Chloe is extremely rich now. Elsa, Jessika, Sarah, Miranda, Beth and Serena can't complain about the lack of cash neither. Maybe Hanna is a bit poor, because as we can see in her office, she can't afford even basic shoes. She is probably spending all profits from her company on her employees so they can rent awesome flats in town. And Joel must be definitely employee of the month.

"broken", not "broke"...

 

[blackmagic616]

Tlaero
Let me explain one more time where the problem lies.

Imagine the following situation:

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Alternative version:

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You only have the above conversation. No feelings, no intention in the voice. Just it. A small piece of one conversation, without any historical background. Plain text. A pure array of chars. Nothing more.
Do you think the woman consented to such sex? Does she like this idea or is she against it?
Well, according to moskyx and you, she actually hates it, because she didn't set any boundaries, or at least we don't know about them. If she did (e.g. by saying "I don't mind it, but only with a condom" or "OK, but no ass-to-mouth"), everything would be okay. Unfortunately, such an argument does not appeal to me. I simply don't buy it.



Do you remember what Joel said about the nation they fought against? I will remind you.

We were there because someone told us to be there. They were there because it was their home. Don't get me wrong, the way they treated their own people, especially the women, was evil.
But none of them thought they were evil. They honestly believed that their way of life was the right way, and we were the evil ones for trying to change them. That conviction is hard to fight against, even when your artillery can travel a thousand times farther than theirs.

Don't take me wrong, but I can see some similarities between you and them.
I'm ready to believe that you want to respect men, accept their way of thinking and treat them in a non-discriminatory manner. Unfortunately, sometimes your games show the exact opposite. So, even if is not intended, I still have some objections.

 

[blackmagic616]

"broken", not "broke"...

I thought it is the same word, just a different form.

You must be registered to see the links

Broke is the past simple
Broken is the past participle
of the verb "Break"

But never mind, it was supposed to be a joke anyway.

 

[jufot]

Dude, can you just... not? I mean, enough is enough. You shared your opinions. Everyone else did theirs. Just... enough.

 

[moskyx]

I am still waiting, because so far you haven't succeeded.

Your whole premise comes from a very different mindset and the agreement is just impossible, and no one is going to change their internal beliefs at this point. I mean, you ended your first post asking for facepalms from 'women defenders', what basically says all about the kind of battle you were proposing to fight. Still, you get both authors plus a bunch of some other guys explaining you some points, yet you doubled up on yours. You keep talking about 'beta' males and manipulative, emotionally perverse girls, you got to the point to even whine about them having nice houses (btw, from Transitions we know Hanne lives in part of DIK's mansion, that's what happens when housing 3D assets are limited). You seem to be taking as a personal attack to your masculinity that your MC characters have to act supportive and compassive towards a girl who's doubting herself or about who she loves, and just don't see the steps the girls make thanks to what your character is 'forced' to do to be with her. All of them end up being a better person, 'fixed' and with a solid partner that loves them -and who they love too, yet you can't see past the 'beta' moves you are forced to do in order to achieve so.

So if I just don't want to be a beta guy, this game is not for me? If I require the same level of honesty from my partner as she does from me, is this game not for me? If I expect from my love that I will be the number one guy in her life, not just a substitute she could get rid of at any time, this game is not for me? Good to know!

As someone told you earlier (and you deliberately choose not to answer) love is not about keeping a score. At least, many of us see it that way. As T&T point out, 'Caring about someone else's happiness above your own is the first sign of actual love'. True love is giving without asking in return. I'm comfortable doing so, in the hopes I'm then corresponded, which is just perfection. But I don't 'expect', I just 'accept' what the other is willing or able to show and give to me, given the circumstances, because I love her. There's honesty in Serena when she finally opens up her heart and tells Joel about Paul, letting him decide if he wants to stay in that relationship knowing her feelings. You, as a player, can then walk out of the game if you are not comfortable with this. But Joel's character is brave enough not only to accept that, but also to encourage her to patch things up with Paul, even if he could end up losing her (which, btw, it's obvious it will never happen, according to everything said in the game, from Serena stating she's perfectly conscious Paul would have dumped her the moment Chloe showed up, to Paul admitting 'undoubtedly' that marrying Chloe is the right move). Somehow, you don't like that. I see strength and love from Joel, you see manipulation and lies from Serena. So yeah, we will never reach to a compromise. You talk about Starship Troopers, which I haven't watched; I'll mention Dostoievsky's 'White nights'. I'm guessing you'll find the girl a manipulative bitch and the main character a laughable beta male, yet for me it's one of the best love stories I've ever read.

In the end, these stories are about men trying to do their best to get a woman's love, so of course they have to overcome some challenges - that's the gaming part of it, and if they fail you get a game over because the story has ended that way. They are the way they are, and if you accept the challenge to complete the game you must prove you are the perfect match for that LI and you're not getting away by showing some (perfectly valid, btw) 'imperfections'. You as a person wouldn't put up with the challenges these girls' love represent, and that's perfectly fine - you'd get a real life 'game over' with them. But the games are designed that way, it's just how it is. Of course you can say what you dislike, but you are effectively asking Tlaero to change radically her way of writting and creating games and I don't see that happening - unless you want her to write a game with a female MC that needs to fight for a man's hard love, but I'm not sure you'd be interested on such plot.

Just a final remark. Hanne has a nice pair of green heels. Just pay a little bit more of attention next time you play the game. It's not only on dialogs where you seem to be missing 'hints'

-edited some typos-

 

[Mortze]

blackmagic616 said:
As far as I know, Chloe is extremely rich now. Elsa, Jessika, Sarah, Miranda, Beth and Serena can't complain about the lack of cash neither. Maybe Hanna is a bit poor, because as we can see in her office, she can't afford even basic shoes. She is probably spending all profits from her company on her employees so they can rent awesome flats in town. And Joel must be definitely employee of the month.

(Sorry I don't know how to do the proper quote thing in here)
This is an example of you assuming something without considering other acceptable options.
Do you think that I would make Hanna poor by hinting that she can't afford shoes? Have you seen her apartment in one of Elsaverse: Transitions episodes? Don't you think that she outranking Joel would make more than him? Why would she not wear shoes then? Because she's poor?
No. My intention was dictated by my experience and knowledge. Some women that wear high heels all day do feel relief in removing them when they are sitting at their desks. That is why. You should perhaps ask the devs "Shy isn't Hanna wearing shoes?" which would be a legitimate question and we'd gladly answer.

There are many other subtle details in the games that would call for legitimate questions and we'd answer all of them. People should ask when they think something is odd.
If I made a mistake in a render I'll recognize it with no problem. Same thing for the script.
Tlaero has been honest about doing mistakes in previous games. We are far from perfect and we gladly welcome criticism that would make us avoid mistakes in the future and better our craft.
But we'd appreciate for people to not assume we did wrong at something and first ask our opinion about something, and then discuss based on that opinion.

People speak too much these days instead of listening.

 

[Mortze]

I'd also like to comment on something that bothers me.
It seems that there is some opinion - perhaps a minority but still existent - that Tlaero writes "beta" men, weak men, comparatively to "alpha" strong women.
I full-heartedly and completely disagree with that opinion and I'll exemplify with Chasing Beth's game since we are in this thread but my argument is lateral for others of our games.

Beth is a physically strong character. She can do baddass stuff like flying military helicopters in a war zone and Bruce Lee marines soldiers. Yeah, she could beat any man in the game without sweating! The only one she could lose to in the Elsaverse seems to be Xara (I discussed that with Tlaero) which is also, behold, a woman! No man could beat either Xara or Beth in the Elsaverse save perhaps Morland but he's gone.
Let's ignore (like some of you do) that Beth has great difficulty in dealing with her war trauma when she was a prisoner and that she choose to be a vigilante not thinking about the consequences she'd bring to people who love her by risking her life that way.

But they cheat.
Beth has a super-power and Xara has something akin to a super-power being from another dimension and having been trained to be a super-soldier. It's easy for them to be badasses that way.
What about Joel?
Yeah, he has a power too, that's true, but his power isn't physically badass. It doesn't help him in any situation where his life is in danger. But he decided to put his life at risk for the greater good.
He went with a special forces team into a war zone, with a camera as a sole weapon. The marines that were with him - impersonated by Zach in this story - don't have powers either but they are risking their lives for a greater good.
Joel came broken from the experience, having to deal with PTSD, which is a battle on its own fought by many men and women around the world, but when entrusted with the mission of investigating the vigilante he still has the courage to go to a shady neighborhood and confront gangers.
He does it twice and when Beth was about to get shot he tried to warn her. When she was hit he didn't hesitate and jumped the only guy with a gun in his hand, disarming him and knocking him out.
Plus he is someone that is emphatic enough to understand that other people have issues and suffer from them, like Serena, and he doesn't think about his ego, he thinks about her and he decided to help her, risking losing her in the process because he thinks her happiness is worth the risk. He does all that while battling his own demons.
From all the Elsaverse Games I've made so far I am resolute that Joel is the strongest character Tlaero ever wrote. I wish I had his courage and bravery, his empathy, his looks, his resolve. Joel is the best friend, lover, person anyone should have. He is, in my opinion, the "alpha" person in all the Elsaverse games.

 

[bingolebongo]

In addition to what you just wrote, Mortze, I'm a bit annoyed by how much of the criticism of your games assumes that people are one-dimensional - especially when this is so obviously the opposite of what Tlaero is going for. Just about any major character has strengths and flaws, issues and resolve. It's basically the major theme of the series.

But male protagonists in games like these are often power fantasies, and I imagine everything deviating from this norm is an annoyance to players not expecting it.

 

[Lucifer]

I'd also like to comment on something that bothers me.
It seems that there is some opinion - perhaps a minority but still existent - that Tlaero writes "beta" men, weak men, comparatively to "alpha" strong women.
I full-heartedly and completely disagree with that opinion and I'll exemplify with Chasing Beth's game since we are in this thread but my argument is lateral for others of our games.

Beth is a physically strong character. She can do baddass stuff like flying military helicopters in a war zone and Bruce Lee marines soldiers. Yeah, she could beat any man in the game without sweating! The only one she could lose to in the Elsaverse seems to be Xara (I discussed that with Tlaero) which is also, behold, a woman! No man could beat either Xara or Beth in the Elsaverse save perhaps Morland but he's gone.
Let's ignore (like some of you do) that Beth has great difficulty in dealing with her war trauma when she was a prisoner and that she choose to be a vigilante not thinking about the consequences she'd bring to people who love her by risking her life that way.

But they cheat.
Beth has a super-power and Xara has something akin to a super-power being from another dimension and having been trained to be a super-soldier. It's easy for them to be badasses that way.
What about Joel?
Yeah, he has a power too, that's true, but his power isn't physically badass. It doesn't help him in any situation where his life is in danger. But he decided to put his life at risk for the greater good.
He went with a special forces team into a war zone, with a camera as a sole weapon. The marines that were with him - impersonated by Zach in this story - don't have powers either but they are risking their lives for a greater good.
Joel came broken from the experience, having to deal with PTSD, which is a battle on its own fought by many men and women around the world, but when entrusted with the mission of investigating the vigilante he still has the courage to go to a shady neighborhood and confront gangers.
He does it twice and when Beth was about to get shot he tried to warn her. When she was hit he didn't hesitate and jumped the only guy with a gun in his hand, disarming him and knocking him out.
Plus he is someone that is emphatic enough to understand that other people have issues and suffer from them, like Serena, and he doesn't think about his ego, he thinks about her and he decided to help her, risking losing her in the process because he thinks her happiness is worth the risk. He does all that while battling his own demons.
From all the Elsaverse Games I've made so far I am resolute that Joel is the strongest character Tlaero ever wrote. I wish I had his courage and bravery, his empathy, his looks, his resolve. Joel is the best friend, lover, person anyone should have. He is, in my opinion, the "alpha" person in all the Elsaverse games.

I absolutely agree with you. Joel is probably the stronger and more complete male character we've seen in the Elsaverse.
He's been thoroughly explored during the game, we've seen a part of his past, his fears, his traits, he's definitely a solid character.

P.s.
Hanna barefoot in the office feels absolutely natural and gorgeous.

 

[Raife]

I'd also like to comment on something that bothers me.
It seems that there is some opinion - perhaps a minority but still existent - that Tlaero writes "beta" men, weak men, comparatively to "alpha" strong women.
I full-heartedly and completely disagree with that opinion and I'll exemplify with Chasing Beth's game since we are in this thread but my argument is lateral for others of our games.

I 100% agree, Mortze... I read Joel as an exceptionally strong character... tremendously courageous, in both a moral and a physical sense, which is a rare combination.

In addition to the examples you relate, he is the kind of character who can...

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Some people mistakenly equate masculinity with dominance and ferocity -- with always fighting and finishing first. Everything is a zero sum game and every man who doesn't win every time is a 'loser.'

For me, that is just strutting, kafabe, pseudo-masculinity... an omega disguising his omega status by aping an alpha.

Joel, on the other hand, exhibits the rarest, most prized qualities traditionally associated with masculinity: stoicism, empathy, courage, and a powerful sense of duty AND responsibility for those he cares about. He's like Gary Cooper in _High Noon_: when everyone else is afraid, and tells him to run away and not face the threat, Joel stays true. When

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Tlaero creates brilliant male characters... but Joel might be my favourite.

 

[moskyx]

Jason (DwE) was a total blank slate. We only knew he has a college degree and an awful job way below his education. We could choose if we wanted to be 'romantic' or 'sexual', and we could succeed either way as long as we were consistent. People complained about him being bland and an underdeveloped character - he was basically a loser with no defined attributes other than being 'nice'.

Marc (RfJ) has a good job, seems like a nice guy and only needs to be 'complex' (that is, not answering always in the same tone) and not a horny dog to get Jessica. He is bigus dickus too. Some people complained about him being too nice that is almost unrealistic that a rockstar would even look at him, others about the game being too difficult because they had to balance their answers instead of going with a monotone behavior. And almost everyone complained about him being, again, an underdeveloped and bland character who didn't exist beyond his job and his infatuation with the rocker chick.

Lucas (FM) was a complex character. He had a past, he was hurt (you could choose why), he had reacted in a certain way to that sad event (you could choose how). He was handsome, intelligent, had a nice house, a good job, a great friend. Had other manly hobbies too, such as motocross, and even played ice hockey during his youth. He couldn't even fail with Miranda, at most you'd miss the sex scenes but you could get the happy ending. So players could enjoy the whole story (bar the sex parts) even if they were stupid enough to not get a single option right. The gameplay, I'll admit, was a bit clunky due to some answers being too similar, but in the end all you had to do was to be consistent with the 2 character traits you had chosen for him at the start. Of course, people complained: it was too difficult to feel immersed when you have to keep an eye for those 2 variables and your MC can be totally different from one playthrough to another.

Paul (SC) had it easier: no more scorechecks, just a couple of right choices and the girl you want is yours. He is nice, although we know he has destroyed too many relationships due to him being unable to move on from his high school crush - the canonical Paul is such a depicable person in his relationships that even his best friend decides to not confess her love for him because he would never be able to correspond and will leave her at jump if Chloe ever shows up again, even if that's highly unlikely. But nobody cares about those poor girls, we all should feel sorry for him because... well, we are him. He's broken due to that traumatic and forced separation, but in SC not only he can solve his issues with Chloe, but one day he simply can choose unregrettably if he actually prefers Xara or her long-time friend and secret-lover Serena better (heck, he can even get in a poly relationship if he play his cards right, and even bang Miranda on another route). Of course, leaving Chloe alone in her misery to look for an easy way out with Serena is not being a jerk despite that decade spent pinning for her, it's 'player agency'. No wonder people liked the game - until the canon route starts to settle in Chasing Beth, it seems. And anyway, the multipaths were short, so meh.

Joel (CB)... well, I'll just defer to what Mortze said above.

All of them are nice guys. In their canon route, all of them are supportive, intelligent, empathic, caring friends and loving partners. They love their girls, they stayed, and that's why they succeded. They all help their respective girls to achieve their goals, both in the Elsaverse plot and in their daily lives (Elsa gained confidence and trust in men, Jessica step out of her self-destructive spiral; Miranda got a helping hand to drive her away of her potential madness -at least momentarily, and Chloe could finally break off the chains with her abusive father and installing herself as the nice woman she wished to be). All thanks to these guys. They are the strength and the support those girls needed. But yeah, they are all a bunch of betas and Joel is the worst of them all because that bitch Serena is still undecided - despite what she actually says in game.

 

[Tlaero]

I fail to see any aggression in my posts.

I won't go all T&T on you and point out each and every place. The T&T scenes apparently didn't go over the way I intended anyway. Suffice to say, though, that if this were one of my games, you'd be on a game over screen. You're not there for pointing out things you didn't like about my games. Every game I've ever made has been colored and influenced by the negative feedback I got on the previous ones. And I revel in the discussions about the characters. But I do not revel in attacks on me, the frail, broken person who writes these games.

You're on a "game over" for repeatedly making this about me.

Tlaero

 

[Raife]

I don't know you, other than through your writing over the years -- but I don't think anyone capable of the empathy that shines through in your games could be broken in a manner beyond repair (an insight gleaned from your writing). And as for 'frail' -- I don't think 99% of devs would have shown the patience and forbearance you've demonstrated on this thread. You are either tougher than you admit, or you are exceptionally brave. My guess is: both.

But your note is a good reminder for the rest of that there are flesh and blood people behind these internet handles, and -- whatever unhappiness or other burdens we are labouring under -- we owe each other a modicum of respect.

 

[SteelToRust]

Amazing work honestly.
I dove into this game knowing absolutely nothing of the other's stories and I never felt like I was missing information at any point.
This speaks volumes on how well the story was actually written.

The part that made me actually very invested in the game was the Serena - Paul revelation scene. I feel ashamed that it took a game character for me to remember my first love and Serena actually became my number one right this moment.

Now, even though I enjoyed Joel, there is one thing that at least to me always strikes as strange in this game: Where is his conflict in this Serena-Paul thing?
I understand being supportive and Joel makes sense in most of the things he says when explaining his choice first to Serena, but I still hoped to see the guy struggle a little to make the right one.
What I found even stranger is later when he got the message from Paul for the column he writes for: just a quick chat with T&T and we are off to another sensible and right choice? This even harder than the first one?
It's just amazing how he seems to go through all of this so easily: you can see Serena being grateful every second for how amazing Joel is, you can even see Chloe and how anxious she was in the brief exchange with Joel. It's funny because my biggest gripe is how amazing Joel is. Sure, he has PTSD and is fighting through it, but I just found this very unnatural. While I agree and enjoy the result of his choice, he seems to do them with no effort whatsoever: it feels like there is no journey behind that choice. He doesn't need to be broken or need saving, but I feel like it should be highlighted how hard of a choice it actually is. That was, at least for my perception, not achieved with him or at least not as well as with the other characters here.

With that being said, my apologies regarding my rant if Joel was actually in one of your previous games and he did all the fighting there. I played this like I would read a book, so I'm not mad about how Joel or the story was actually told: it was still amazing and while Joel would have been my favorite character here if the things I said were there, Serena takes it for me.

I'm looking forward to checking the other games and giving this game another try later maybe in Italian to check the translation.

 

[jufot]

my apologies regarding my rant if Joel was actually in one of your previous games and he did all the fighting there

Joel is new to this game. Serena, Chloe, Paul, Blake and Won are from earlier stories.

I feel like it should be highlighted how hard of a choice it actually is

You mean the choice to let Serena meet with Paul to discuss things? I'm not sure why that'd be difficult. Either she prefers Joel, in which case the meeting is harmless, or she prefers Paul, in which case why would Joel (or anyone) want to be with a person who would rather be with someone else?

 

[moskyx]

Amazing work honestly.
I dove into this game knowing absolutely nothing of the other's stories and I never felt like I was missing information at any point.
This speaks volumes on how well the story was actually written.

The part that made me actually very invested in the game was the Serena - Paul revelation scene. I feel ashamed that it took a game character for me to remember my first love and Serena actually became my number one right this moment.

Now, even though I enjoyed Joel, there is one thing that at least to me always strikes as strange in this game: Where is his conflict in this Serena-Paul thing?
I understand being supportive and Joel makes sense in most of the things he says when explaining his choice first to Serena, but I still hoped to see the guy struggle a little to make the right one.
What I found even stranger is later when he got the message from Paul for the column he writes for: just a quick chat with T&T and we are off to another sensible and right choice? This even harder than the first one?
It's just amazing how he seems to go through all of this so easily: you can see Serena being grateful every second for how amazing Joel is, you can even see Chloe and how anxious she was in the brief exchange with Joel. It's funny because my biggest gripe is how amazing Joel is. Sure, he has PTSD and is fighting through it, but I just found this very unnatural. While I agree and enjoy the result of his choice, he seems to do them with no effort whatsoever: it feels like there is no journey behind that choice. He doesn't need to be broken or need saving, but I feel like it should be highlighted how hard of a choice it actually is. That was, at least for my perception, not achieved with him or at least not as well as with the other characters here.

With that being said, my apologies regarding my rant if Joel was actually in one of your previous games and he did all the fighting there. I played this like I would read a book, so I'm not mad about how Joel or the story was actually told: it was still amazing and while Joel would have been my favorite character here if the things I said were there, Serena takes it for me.

I'm looking forward to checking the other games and giving this game another try later maybe in Italian to check the translation.

I guess I can see your point. Actually, Joel's first idea was to answer Paul without telling Serena; Tanya suggests to not answer him at all and only Tony chooses the sensible (and right) option. So there were 2 selfish options against the right one (Joel's being one of the selfish ones), and I can understand how the outcome could feel kind of 'rushed' for some people who might need some more time to process it all - maybe an actual menu choice when talking to Serena could have improved that 'this is a crucial decision you must take fully convinced' feeling, but then what would have been the T&T's fail scene? The same one again, reminding Joel to let her know? After all this is exactly the scene where the whole 'caring about other's feelings above yours is the first sign of real love' thing is said, and he just gets it on the fly. The fact that he resorted to T&T in the first place, even though his first impulse was to answer Paul without telling Serena first, means that he was already half-convinced that this was not the way to go and only needed a little push from his counselors to make it right. He's just that good, I guess.

If you already feel impressed by her storytelling, when you finish the rest of the games and stories you'll be no doubt amazed by the worldbuilding

 

[SteelToRust]

You mean the choice to let Serena meet with Paul to discuss things? I'm not sure why that'd be difficult. Either she prefers Joel, in which case the meeting is harmless, or she prefers Paul, in which case why would Joel (or anyone) want to be with a person who would rather be with someone else?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I feel the same way that's why it makes sense for me to decide to be honest on it and set up the meeting. My issue with Joel is that he never seems to have any of the human difficulties to reach that decision.
As Moskyx said, his first idea was completely different: I may remember this badly, but he has the discussion with T&T and he has three choices. He says something akin to " I want her to be happy " or something and proceeds to do the right thing.
From my perspective, here is the moment where you need to put an additional scene where he explains why his idea shifted to the right one.

Why was the first thing he came up with was talking with Paul behind Serena's back? Why does he change his mind and decide to follow the most sensible path? For someone that had a hard time deciding to go to a therapist for his PTSD and struggles with this, it just feels unnatural to me how decisive and virtuous he is whenever something regarding Serena comes up.

I guess I can see your point. Actually, Joel's first idea was to answer Paul without telling Serena; Tanya suggests to not answer him at all and only Tony chooses the sensible (and right) option. So there were 2 selfish options against the right one (Joel's being one of the selfish ones), and I can understand how the outcome could feel kind of 'rushed' for some people who might need some more time to process it all - maybe an actual menu choice when talking to Serena could have improved that 'this is a crucial decision you must take fully convinced' feeling, but then what would have been the T&T's fail scene? The same one again, reminding Joel to let her know? After all this is exactly the scene where the whole 'caring about other's feelings above yours is the first sign of real love' thing is said, and he just gets it on the fly. The fact that he resorted to T&T in the first place, even though his first impulse was to answer Paul without telling Serena first, means that he was already half-convinced that this was not the way to go and only needed a little push from his counselors to make it right. He's just that good, I guess.

If you already feel impressed by her storytelling, when you finish the rest of the games and stories you'll be no doubt amazed by the worldbuilding

Yes and no. I feel like you can totally avoid an additional choice menu there, but you can absolutely add a scene where his struggles come to life. Would it be strange to see him afraid of losing Serena? This comes up a couple of times, but he never seems to be really afraid of this.

Think of how Serena explains the situation first to Joel. He arrives home to see no lights, Serena on the couch drinking wine and the first thing she asks is to speak to T&T instead of him. Her first thought is to let Joel leave if this is too much. The scene is presented in a way in which you can see how much of a struggle this line of thought actually was for her. As she said, the problem isn't that she still had a soft spot for Paul (which is something that will never disappear), but how him missing in her life and being the last to know about the marriage hit her. To me, it looks like she feels ashamed that another man, one that she had romantic feelings at some point, was able to move her feelings so much. Joel is the first guy that was able to help her move on from Paul and they had each other backs during all the hardships of their relationship until that point. All of this, added with the car accident and the sex life, made her think that Joel deserves better. While Serena still doesn't want Joel to leave, her giving "permission" is a step toward accepting that this could be the outcome. At least this is how I read the scene.

At that moment Serena felt like a human: she wants the best for Joel even if that means him leaving, but she doesn't want that. She accepts that this may be an outcome of her explaining the situation, but she still makes the right choice.

This doesn't happen with Joel. Now, how would you add something similar? Honestly, I have no idea. Most of the time I think that memories and experiences are the best way to learn: maybe put here a little flashback of Joel less amazing days? Maybe even something corny and romantic as one of their first dates?
Thinking back, if I'm not mistaken Joel tells Serena about the desert during the game so she just knows that he has PTSD: the first night he wakes up from nightmares and she hugs him and tells him it's okay even without knowing the full picture yet? This would remind him of how that day she chose to trust him and be supportive of all of his struggles. Now it's his turn to do the same.

I agree that this comes up from my personal view of life and human beings in general: humans are ugly creatures inside, but they can struggle and fight to blossom every day is something better. It's a constant fight: this is evident with both Beth and Serena, way less with Joel.