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VN Ren'Py Completed Chasing Beth [v1.0.2] [Tora Productions]

4.20 star(s) 18 Votes

Raife

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May 16, 2018
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It is funny, because it actually is the way to succeed, at least for women in your games. Why being a jerk works for female, but not for male characters? Could you explain this, Mrs. Tatiana/Tanya/Tlaero?

Thanks in advance for your facepalms, women's defenders!
One of the things that I enjoy about Tlaero's games is that she seems to require more of her male MCs... that they do better than simple reciprocity, that they really look after the woman they love. They don't keep score in relationships... they just do the right thing, even if it hurts.

I admire those male MCs. They remind me a bit of Phillip Marlowe, the original battered white knight in a dirty, imperfect world. Marlowe (and his creator, Raymond Chandler) understood that life wasn't fair, and that you often ended up getting punished -- sometimes by agents of the law -- for doing the right thing. He didn't care -- and tried to do right anyway.

It strikes me that Tlaero's expectations of her male MCs are distinctly old fashioned, perhaps... but in the very best way.
 
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moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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It is funny, because it actually is the way to succeed, at least for women in your games. Why being a jerk works for female, but not for male characters? Could you explain this, Mrs. Tatiana/Tanya/Tlaero?
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Thanks in advance for your facepalms, women's defenders!
Better than a facepalm is a comprehensive answer to dismantle every argument you tried to use to make your point.
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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It is funny, because it actually is the way to succeed, at least for women in your games. Why being a jerk works for female, but not for male characters? Could you explain this, Mrs. Tatiana/Tanya/Tlaero?
Moskys responded in depth, and I agree with everything he said, so I'm not going to rehash. Thanks, Moskys.

I will say a few other things, though.

First, the game doesn't specify how long Serena and Joel have been together, but it should be clear that they're relatively early in their relationship. Certainly longer than the first week, which is different that most of my games, but probably not years. They're building their relationship and, "Oh, by the way, I know someone who can turn invisible," isn't something you'd bring up out of the blue early on.

When Serena does disclose the actually important thing that she's been keeping from Joel, I explicitly give you permission to say, "Fuck this, I'm outta here." Yeah, I didn't spend a ton of time writing a branch to this game where Joel breaks up with Serena. I didn't want to. Life Changes with Keeley taught me that the cost of writing stories I don't want to write brings nowhere near an equal amount of benefit. If you want to break up with Serena at that point, cool. Game over. Imagine the story continuing any way you want it to.

As for the morning sex with Christine, considering what they've done together, that's extremely tame. You can be 100% sure that they've discussed boundaries, and that isn't one of them. If you're thinking, "Man, I would hate to have my girlfriend have sex with me in the morning," then you should be on the Laura path. As Moskys said, the whole point of that entire game is to give people who are weirded out by Christine somewhere else to go.

I write stories about broken women and the heroic men who save them.

Let me say that again. The women in my games are broken. Is it a double standard that I rarely tell stories about broken men? Sure. But why would I want to? I want to tell stories about superheroes, not people who can fly or shoot lasers out of their hands, but people who, through strength of character, can help the broken women in their lives.

You can say, "I'm not interested in a story where the MC is a superhero when it comes to the way he treats his love interest," and that's fine. But the answer isn't to convince me to make my main characters be jerks. The answer is to go play any of the vast, vast majority of games on this site where being a jerk is the only way to succeed.

I know that I write for a niche.

I'm not going to stop.

Tlaero
 

Mortze

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Game Developer
Aug 27, 2017
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blackmagic616

Let me just remind you - and whomever it might interest - that despite Tlaero writing the script I have a say - a sort of veto if you will - on it, as does Tlaero on my artistic graphic input.
The fact that we don't exercise that "veto" power much just says enough about the trust we have in each other and that we agree and are satisfied with each other's own input and side of the work.

There have been cases where I've advised Tlaero into changing the script (less than a hand's finger's) because I thought it hurt a character or the story and EVERY such time she took my advice into account and changed the script accordingly. There's not one game we've made together that I don't agree with everything scripted or every character's personality.

I am a guy. I respect men and women. Every one of our games is about respect. It is also about humanity. And humans are flawed, more than we think they are broken.
Not all of our characters decide to do the right thing at the right time but all of them - the ones we care about - try their best, to be their best, for those they care about.

Serena has issues, Joel has issues, Beth has issues, and they all try their best. They make mistakes but in the canon path they recognize the good and caring in each other and they come closer consequently.

Our games aren't porn festivals. In fact, the sex is there because I insist it to be there, me being the jolly pervert I am. Remove the sex in the stories and they stand as solid as a rock. Remove the supernatural stuff and you still get a great and valuable story.

They are damn good stories about people. About all of us.
 

nowheelies

Newbie
Jul 18, 2021
26
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amazing quality story. extremely excellent and captivating. thank you.
gonna head over and become a supporter...
 

Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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One thing I'll own up to on, though. In most of my games, you don't have to get every choice right, you just need a certain (fairly high) percentage. I had the ability to do that here as well, and have constants defined and everything. But, as I was writing it, the T&T side story became more and more important, I started thinking, "What if the players don't see this T&T scene? Will they miss the foreshadowing and not understand?"

I went back and forth on that. At one point, I tried this terrible mechanism where when you got it right, you had an option right then to see the T&T scene anyway if you wanted. It was pretty dumb. No, it was really dumb... But I saw the light and removed it before anyone but Mortze saw it.

Anyway, the two T&T scenes I would have liked for you to see the most were the first one, largely because I go back to "non-sexual intimacy" a few times in the game, and the one after the flashback, because I would have liked you to see them looking fondly at the baby crib. It was at that point in writing the story that I started trying all these mechanisms for letting you see the T&T scenes. And the one I ended up with had good aspects (the Gallery and T&T having more impact in the main game) and bad ones.

The main bad one was that I tuned the number of wrong choices you could get and still succeed way down.

So, yeah, you should have been able to let Serena think the vigilante was a male. I originally let you make one mistake there but set it to 0 near the end because I wanted you to see the crib.

Seeing how much trouble people are having with the choices tells me I did this wrong. Live and learn.

Tlaero
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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Phenomenal work once again Tlaero and Mortze! It's rare that a game inspires me to write a review, but I did so for Chasing Beth.

As great as Mortze's art is (and it really is!) I'll confess to being here primarily for Tlaero's writing. My favourite entry in Elsaverse is AAA, which is text only. Which brings me to my point:

If you know who Sa'al is, you're a serious fan. Thank you!

I kind of go back and forth on Xara an Sa'al. On one hand, I've left them in a good place. On the other, I really like them both. While I could certainly go into a lot of detail on their budding relationship, I haven't come up with a compelling overstory to tell it in. I think about it from time to time, though.
Please, please, pretty please make a game about Xara and Sa'al! She is already established as a soothing influence in Xara's post-Morland life, so maybe it could be about finding a way to get rid of Xara's nightly torture together? I know Axis told Xara that it was impossible without the original Dream Master but maybe she was just... wrong?
 
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jufot

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Also, I'd like to recommend reading the game's script ("cb.rpy" in the "game" folder). It's full of Tlaero's notes to Mortze, and it's quite an illuminating look into their process :)
 
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Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
620
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Phenomenal work once again Tlaero and Mortze! It's rare that a game inspires me to write a review, but I did so for Chasing Beth.

As great as Mortze's art is (and it really is!) I'll confess to being here primarily for Tlaero's writing. My favourite entry in Elsaverse is AAA, which is text only. Which brings me to my point:



Please, please, pretty please make a game about Xara and Sa'al! She is already established as a soothing influence in Xara's post-Morland life, so maybe it could be about finding a way to get rid of Xara's nightly torture together?
Aaaaand... my work is now done here. The adults have all arrived in the room. :D (y)
 
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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Re: Mortze.

I've told this story before, so I'll be brief here. A long time ago I made games with another artist. We stopped at some point, and I wandered around for a while. Then, out of the blue, this unknown guy sends me a message offering to be my new artist. I had seen a lot of people who picked up DAZ, loaded a stock character with a stock smile, turned the "breast size" slider way up, and called it art. So I wasn't expecting much. I asked the guy to send me an image of a character he thought was beautiful.

He sent me Elsa.

I picked my jaw up off the floor and calmly, but with shaking hands, requested three facial expressions on her. When I saw what he sent me, I ran around the house cheering.

Mortze has significantly improved over the years, but he was always heads and shoulders above his peers.

And his handling of Beth in this game just proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Beth spends the majority of this game sitting in a chair, yet he makes her expressions and body language extremely interesting. If Beth were an actress, she would be a good one. I'm so fortunate to be able to work with such a talented artist. I appreciate it daily.

Tlaero
 

blackmagic616

Member
Dec 29, 2019
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First, the game doesn't specify how long Serena and Joel have been together, but it should be clear that they're relatively early in their relationship. Certainly longer than the first week, which is different that most of my games, but probably not years.
Well, it was definitely not so obvious to me. Where I come from, couples don't live together just after several months of acquaintance. Not because society is conservative, but because moving to another place is expensive and living with someone you really don't know is a big risk. Of course, students live in dormitories, but you won't get a co-ed room there.
Besides, this apartment looks quite expensive to me. It is definitely not something that a journalist from a small newspaper in a medium size town could rent immediately, just like that. I know she's a lawyer, but still, renting such a place requires serious thought and a lot of money (cash deposit), and I don't think that Serena rented it before, when she was alone. Or maybe I just analyze everything too much.

They're building their relationship and, "Oh, by the way, I know someone who can turn invisible," isn't something you'd bring up out of the blue early on.
But are you telling a newly met boyfriend about your traumas, deeply ingrained in your mind? I don't think so. It usually takes years before a traumatized person really opens up about such a topic.

When Serena does disclose the actually important thing that she's been keeping from Joel, I explicitly give you permission to say, "Fuck this, I'm outta here." Yeah, I didn't spend a ton of time writing a branch to this game where Joel breaks up with Serena. I didn't want to. Life Changes with Keeley taught me that the cost of writing stories I don't want to write brings nowhere near an equal amount of benefit.
Fair enough, but I am still a bit disappointed by the fact that a few scenes for an alternative ending are missing here.

As for the morning sex with Christine, considering what they've done together, that's extremely tame. You can be 100% sure that they've discussed boundaries, and that isn't one of them. If you're thinking, "Man, I would hate to have my girlfriend have sex with me in the morning," then you should be on the Laura path. As Moskys said, the whole point of that entire game is to give people who are weirded out by Christine somewhere else to go.
Sex in the morning is definitely something completely different from sex while sleeping. You can like both anal sex and morning sex, but I doubt you would be happy for so-called "anal wake". ;)
The problem with sleep sex is that it is always non-consent. You can never be sure if it would be pleasant for your partner or not. When (s)he is asleep (s)he cannot even tell you if (s)he is in the mood.

I write stories about broken women and the heroic men who save them.
Why not just about broken people saved by good people who care? Does gender really matter that much to you?
Tell me something, do you believe in gender equality (I am not talking about transgender right now, although I didn't find a single trans person in your games)? This is not a complaint, but just a question. I can see that you're trying to dismiss some stereotypes about women, but the men in your games are... how to say this... old fashioned.

Let me say that again. The women in my games are broken.
As far as I know, Chloe is extremely rich now. Elsa, Jessika, Sarah, Miranda, Beth and Serena can't complain about the lack of cash neither. Maybe Hanna is a bit poor, because as we can see in her office, she can't afford even basic shoes. She is probably spending all profits from her company on her employees so they can rent awesome flats in town. And Joel must be definitely employee of the month. ;)

Is it a double standard that I rarely tell stories about broken men? Sure. But why would I want to? I want to tell stories about superheroes, not people who can fly or shoot lasers out of their hands, but people who, through strength of character, can help the broken women in their lives.
Jokes aside, why your game can't be about helping a lost guy, at least just for once? Why is it so difficult for you to show compassion and understanding to a man without punishing him immediately after he gets it (see: Jason and Trisha)?

You can say, "I'm not interested in a story where the MC is a superhero when it comes to the way he treats his love interest," and that's fine.
I've never been a fan of superheroes, nor those with superpowers, such as Superman or Spiderman, nor those with with powertoys, like Batman or Iron Man. Actually, I've never read Marvell or DC comics. I don't even like Indiana Jones. I would rather look for a parody than for a classics of the genre. The heroes without superpowers is what I like about your games, but I'd like to see it at least once how you empathize with a lost guy the way you empathize with broken women. Just it.

But the answer isn't to convince me to make my main characters be jerks. The answer is to go play any of the vast, vast majority of games on this site where being a jerk is the only way to succeed.
I've never asked for a game when MC is a true jerk, who doesn't respect women. I've never asked for a game with the harem route, where you drag all women to your bed either by manipulation or blackmailing. This is not my taste.
What I really want to see is a guy who doesn't have to be perfect and can make some mistakes that can be forgiven later. A guy who can find understanding from his love interest or just a female friend. A guy who can be a little bit shy, while still being able to experience love. A guy who doesn't always have to understand the body language or take a hint, but who won't be banned from love for the whole life because of this.
I know it can be hard when the guy is MC, so maybe it would be worth making the protagonist a woman at least once.
BTW: So far, the guy I could identify most with was Marc from Redemption for Jessika. Because apart from his fast typing skills, he was the most average guy, even a bit insecure, not a fairy-tale prince who is supposed to find and save the princess.

I know that I write for a niche.
Actually, it is quite opposite. Stories about broken women are mainstream. In some, people save them, in others, people use them, but either way, these stories are about lost women. Stories about broken guys are extremely rare, not only in games, but even in movies, especially when it comes to the adults, not just some poor kids from a third world country, like Lebanon or Bangladesh.
I know that there are very few women who truly believe in gender equality. Even less of them can tell amazing stories and create solid games with such theme. I am fine if you are not one of them, but I'm not going to stop looking for it and I am not ashamed about it. ;)
 

blackmagic616

Member
Dec 29, 2019
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Our games aren't porn festivals.
I've never looked for something like this here. See my previous post.

In fact, the sex is there because I insist it to be there, me being the jolly pervert I am.
Damn, so Phreaky had to be the same pervert as you are. Maybe Tlaero was right that all guys are jerks, until they prove otherwise. ;)

Remove the sex in the stories and they stand as solid as a rock. Remove the supernatural stuff and you still get a great and valuable story.
I am inclined to agree with that. You are one of the few that create truly erotic games. Games that give people both emotions and arousal, unlike porn games that can only provide the second thing.
 

Raife

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May 16, 2018
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Maybe Tlaero was right that all guys are jerks, until they prove otherwise.
Jeeez. That's the precise opposite to how I interpret Tlaero's male MCs. She sees us (that is, men) as capable of greatness, and encourages us to realize our potential. To show demonstrate genuine love for the female LIs in her games, as painful as that can sometimes be, and to help heal the wounds that afflict those characters.

She has explained herself quite clearly in this respect. She gives us a chance to play real heroes... which can require exposing ourselves to difficult, emotionally fraught situations.
 

Raife

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May 16, 2018
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Re: Mortze
As you say.... he's a brilliant artist, and we're very lucky to have him. He creates beautiful, realistic-looking renditions of female LIs... sooooo much better than the HS blow-up dolls that populate this site. They look like women, which means their bodies have quirks and imperfections... but that just makes them more beautiful.
 
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blackmagic616

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Dec 29, 2019
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Jeeez. That's the precise opposite to how I interpret Tlaero's male MCs. She sees us (that is, men) as capable of greatness, and encourages us to realize our potential.
That's right! All we have to do is just to read our women's minds. Simple as fuck! There are some small obstacles, such as that you must have superpowers, but the truth is that women just deserve it! Or rather you don't deserve any woman without it.
You could also try to spy at your love interest by hacking into her online accounts/computers/smartphones. This way you can also gain all the good answers she expects from you. But remember not to tell her about that you are using such methods. Just say it's magic and she'll be happy. :)
And if you really want to talk seriously about this topic, please read what I just wrote about "Scared in Suburbia".

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blackmagic616

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Dec 29, 2019
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You've obviously played a lot of my games. If I piss you off so much, why do you continue to play?
I probably played all your visual games, but I didn't go through all your text novels. I enjoyed at least some of your Keeleyverse's games, although I don't remember them very well right now. I liked Pandora, even it didn't give me too many strong emotions. I really loved Redemption for Jessika. Quite recently (well, this year) I fell in love with Darkness Falls and I am really sad that this series won't be continued, at least in the current form. I even liked Elsaverse: Transitions, although I am not completely sure about its form (too much mixture of everything, too much different threads in just one game). Obviously, there were some games that I didn't like so much, like Royal Guard, because of the semi-medieval theme. But so far, I am most disappointed with this one and I've already told you why. I only didn't mention the harassment of sea turtles (God, it was gross!), but it should be obvious (shouldn't that be directed to Mortze?). Anyway, Serena is definitely not my favourite character and I strongly disagree with some of T&T advice. Do I have to agree with absolutely everything to play your games? Otherwise they are not for me? It is really about all or nothing?
I also told you what I miss in your games. It's not like I can't live without it, but with time it bothers me more and more. You don't have to agree with that, and I can't force you to change your mind. I can't told you how you should build your own games. But I have a feeling that you don't even want to hear any complains, and this make me sad. I assume you are not going to refer to my previous posts in any way. This makes me question why you are here at all. Because if you don't even want to listen any criticism, our presence here is kind of pointless. Don't you think so?
 

Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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What you're doing isn't feedback. You misinterpreted my intent in a large number of places spanning many games, and you've refused to believe anyone who has tried to clarify it.

You're not complaining about the games. You're complaining about me.

It feels like I have hurt you, and, if so, I'm sorry for doing so. If you'd like to talk about that, let's talk.

Tlaero
 
4.20 star(s) 18 Votes