VN Ren'Py Completed Chasing Beth [v1.0.2] [Tora Productions]

[Tlaero]

I hear all of the hatred for the checkpoint system in the game, and I'm taking it to heart. I probably won't use this gameplay technique in future games. But, while I hear your feedback, I don't really understand it.

If you're playing an adventure game, and you get to the blue door, you don't get to choose to use the green key on the door. If you do, you fail and need to try something else. The only way through is to find and use the blue key.

If you're playing a puzzle game, you don't get to choose to just not get the pipes aligned to let the water go through. If you do it wrong, you fail and need to keep trying until you get it right.

If you're playing a platformer, you don't get to choose to jump when the spikes are on the ceiling and crawl when they're on the floor. If you do, you fail and need to try again (and again) until you get it right.

If you're playing a shooter, and you get to the boss fight, you don't get to decide to use diplomacy and negotiate your way out. You have to shoot it. And, specifically, you have to shoot it in a specific spot to weaken another spot to expose the spot where if you use the right weapon and hit when it's glowing the right color, you'll do some damage. And if you don't do these things precisely, you fail and need to try again.

In the vast majority of games, "Gameplay" doesn't mean, "I get to do anything I want." Gameplay means, "I can fail, and I need to figure out the right way to proceed." I was a little worried that the feedback would be, "The T&T scenes make it too easy to figure out what to do." I wasn't expecting "Remove the Gameplay altogether."

I would like to understand if the feedback is actually "I want to act differently than you're allowing me to" and not "I don't like that you're making me figure stuff out."

Tlaero

 

[Praenuntius]

I guess the mainproblem is that in this kind of game, when you are offered with a "choice", you expect a branchingpoint. Kind of "hey I want to play as a complete asshole and still get all the pussy", when that doesn't happen... well "mimimi" all day long

f.e. in a shooter I know, kill him, destroy that. Don't shoot him, he is on your side... stuff like that and don't worry, if the game has a safety mechanism that is stopping the player from killing teammates, then there are still people that are crying about it. And I think the fact, that there are players, who are complaining that they can't shoot teammates on purpose, tells you everything you have to know ^^

In my playthrough of Chasing Beth I hit the "Helpscreen" exactly one time and that was when I told Serena that the vigilante is a "he". At that moment I simply tried to protect the identity of Beth, but I get it... trust your girlfriend. In all other "choices" it was pretty clear: don't be a dick and let T&T help you... so maybe I can't understand the problem at all.

 

[moskyx]

I think there are a couple of factors here, not just 'people want more branching/agency/do what the fuck they want without bad consequences'. Being forced to go back just to the start of the scene, while convenient, kind of kills immersion. Replaying the scene feels as if your MC is effectively going back on time, instead of you (as a player) trying to get it right. If you like to immerse yourself in the story, and not just enjoy it as an external reader, I guess those time jumps it could be off-putting.

Also, an instant game over after a bad choice (or a couple of bad choices within the same scene) is often perceived as 'if this option is wrong, why is there at all?'. And that's because they aren't playing a shooter where the boss has just one weak spot and they know there's only one and they'd need to replay and replay until they find it -that's the grind they enjoy. Here they are playing a visual novel and people expect some more 'novel' when making a choice. Even if it's a bad choice that leads to a game over, I think some people just expect that bad ending to be reached later on, especially when, in this case, those 'bad options' don't seem critical at first glance. I mean, take the first scene, when if you push too much Serena leaves the room. I guess people can accept that they have made a bad choice, thus missing a sex scene, but they feel the story could continue from that point without too much hassle. Like, OK, you failed once with Serena, but you can recover from your mistake; then, if you don't trust her with your memories you're on the brink of losing her, and you definitely lose her that night if you act like a prick when you find her crying. There could have been a classic game over at midgame, forcing players to restart again and try to be nicer with Serena, and people might have accepted it better.

Sure, that was not the story dev is trying to tell, T&T are there for a reason and making them appear as personal counselors after a wrong move is part of the 'metagame' the dev is trying to engage the player in, but some people just don't buy it and feel it could have been done in some other way. That's how the vast majority of VN are made, so people kind of expect that and are annoyed when they feel they are being too much railroaded despite making choices. They just don't trascend to the bigger picture of this creation.

 

[Ottoeight]

I guess the mainproblem is that in this kind of game, when you are offered with a "choice", you expect a branchingpoint. Kind of "hey I want to play as a complete asshole and still get all the pussy", when that doesn't happen... well "mimimi" all day long

f.e. in a shooter I know, kill him, destroy that. Don't shoot him, he is on your side... stuff like that and don't worry, if the game has a safety mechanism that is stopping the player from killing teammates, then there are still people that are crying about it. And I think the fact, that there are players, who are complaining that they can't shoot teammates on purpose, tells you everything you have to know ^^

In my playthrough of Chasing Beth I hit the "Helpscreen" exactly one time and that was when I told Serena that the vigilante is a "he". At that moment I simply tried to protect the identity of Beth, but I get it... trust your girlfriend. In all other "choices" it was pretty clear: don't be a dick and let T&T help you... so maybe I can't understand the problem at all.

Well, Chasing Beth is a chapter in a big saga: the story has to go from A to B because B is going to the starting point of the next chapter (I guess).

Anyway, I knew that the right choice was telling Serena the truth, because TRUST is always the key word in relationships in Tlaero's stories (I'm right, isn't it? ).

 

[Praenuntius]

those 'bad options' don't seem critical at first glance. I mean, take the first scene, when if you push too much Serena leaves the room.

I think especially this first scene shows you exactly what is expected from Joels behavior for the rest of the game. And the "harass her, while she is in pain"-options are screaming (at least for me): "don't press here". So I think they are critical.

If you put yourself in Joels position, look at it like this: You and Serena are a couple for a while (you live together). You wake up in the middle of the night after a heavy nightmare. What is she doing? Hugging you, its obvious she is caring for you. It's also obvious, that this is not the first time, that it happened. So the next morning you have the choice: be equally loving back or be an asshole. If you go with option two, well... be happy about the automatic scrollback

Anyway, I knew that the right choice was telling Serena the truth, because TRUST is always the key word in relationships in Tlaero's stories (I'm right, isn't it? ).

I think TRUST is also the key word in rl relationships
But in my defense: It's hard to choose between trusting Serena and possible incriminating a person that saved your butt. Nevertheless it was no problem for me to get the advise from T&T and play that short sequence again. I guess it can get annoying when you always fail, but if you archieve that you should probably start thinking how to play the game. F.e. if you fail in another game over and over again because you take the same route, you should think about changing the route. You don't cry for the Dev to make your route working. It's the same her...

Personally I rank Chasing Beth on the third place of games in the Elsaverse, so I'm pretty happy with it.

 

[Tlaero]

Anyway, I knew that the right choice was telling Serena the truth, because TRUST is always the key word in relationships in Tlaero's stories (I'm right, isn't it? ).

Yeah, trust and respect. Not just the key words in relationships in my games. Those are the key words in real life relationships.

Tlaero

 

[moskyx]

I think especially this first scene shows you exactly what is expected from Joels behavior for the rest of the game. And the "harass her, while she is in pain"-options are screaming (at least for me): "don't press here". So I think they are critical.

If you put yourself in Joels position, look at it like this: You and Serena are a couple for a while (you live together). You wake up in the middle of the night after a heavy nightmare. What is she doing? Hugging you, its obvious she is caring for you. It's also obvious, that this is not the first time, that it happened. So the next morning you have the choice: be equally loving back or be an asshole. If you go with option two, well... be happy about the automatic scrollback



I think TRUST is also the key word in rl relationships
But in my defense: It's hard to choose between trusting Serena and possible incriminating a person that saved your butt. Nevertheless it was no problem for me to get the advise from T&T an play that short sequence again. I guess it can get annoying when you always fail, but if you archieve that you should probably start thinking how to play the game. F.e. if you fail in another game over and over again because you take the same route, you should think about changing the route. You don't cry for the Dev to make your route working. It's the same her...

Personally I rank Chasing Beth on the third place of games in the Elsaverse, so I'm pretty happy with it.

Totally agree with your whole post. I was just talking from a 'casual VN player' point of view, they have the option to push the girl for sex and they do it because that's just how it works in most games. And while they can accept they might have failed there, thus missing a sex scene, they usually don't reflect that much on what they have read before the choice, especially if it's implied and not yelled at them, so they think that the game should go on with maybe a negative score with Serena that they may recover later on. With that mindset, being forced to replay the scenes feels like a chore that should be skippable - even if that replay is just after being literally yelled on how to play it

 

[Praenuntius]

being forced to replay the scenes feels like a chore that should be skippable

well holding CTRL while choosing the other options isn't so far from skipping

 

[Ottoeight]

Yeah, trust and respect. Not just the key words in relationships in my games. Those are the key words in real life relationships.

Tlaero

Yep. But most VNs here in F95 are quite far from real life. They're a bit... of an acquired taste. Most F95 VNs plots are: MC's magical and unique rod wins over every woman (and man, sometimes) despite anything.

 

[Tlaero]

I have wondered if the real complaint isn't the checkpoint system but the fact that acting like a jerk isn't the way to succeed.

Tlaero

 

[Praenuntius]

I have wondered if the real complaint isn't the checkpoint system but the fact that acting like a jerk isn't the way to succeed.

Tlaero

Now you got it! ^^

 

[Praenuntius]

If you behave like a dick in this game, you get a "reset", If you behave like a dick in Saving Chloe you get a sex scene with Chloe and shot dead in the end of the game.

So maybe the more extrem outcome is prefered? I mean there isn't much we men won't do for sex ^^

 

[Grosconnard]

Ok so I have played most of your games (still missing a couple there) but never posted any comments on any of them but it would be a euphemism to say that I thoroughly enjoyed playing Chasing Beth despite the supposed "railroading" others are complaining about.
I guess when you are offered different options you expect different outcomes in the story depending on your choice which is what happened in previous games, and this expectation that players have is not met when they are sent back in the game for making the wrong choice. So to play the devil's advocate, why even offer a choice if the story will go just one way?

It didn't bother me that much, not enough to complain about it anyway. I tried both options on the first couple of choices of the game and after seeing T&T I quickly understood where the game wanted me to go so it was easy enough to follow the trust and respect path for the rest of the game, so much so that for the T&T bonus scene I had 7 scenes out of 9 I had not seen... I also do feel like the choice of having T&T giving some advice is in line with the narrative of this game and these two characters.
I do wonder if there is supposed to be any sort of difference whether we respond as Tanya, Tony or Joel when asked? I've tried to use different options but I didn't see any difference at all in the way things played out or did I miss something?

Apart from that your storytelling on this games is unequalled, I love the exploration of characters psychology and their intimate scars such as with Joel and his PTSD, and the originality of the story, the importance of trust and respect in your stories, the maturity of your games in general. It's such a fresh breath of air in the world of adult gaming...
Add to that the gorgeous renders from Mortze in terms of lighting, the natural beauty and the personalities of your characters (I found Serena so touching I wanted to hug her myself)... And last but not least thank you for being so generous with pubic hair in your games which is all too rare in adult games haha.

I hope you guys keep blessing us with your games for much longer, few of us realise how lucky we are to be able to enjoy those gems...

 

[Lucifer]

I have wondered if the real complaint isn't the checkpoint system but the fact that acting like a jerk isn't the way to succeed.

Tlaero

I believe that's exaclty the point. The fail-restore system in Chasing Beth is amazing, it's almost the only one who manages to make the player's mistakes an extremely pleasant part of the game itself.
I'd really like to see a similar format in future games too. It's brilliant, effective and fun.

People who complains about it, probably didn't even bother to read the dialogues.
If I can be quite straightforward, many people just play your games to masturbate, and when some of them are in such a mood, the only thing they look forward to is a release.
I'd suggest to make a very hot sex scene in the very first phase of the game, so that those who are looking for a release can get it, and don't bother to complain about the difficulty to read while being horny, because that's what's behind their words.


Lucifer

 

[xsssssssss]

I have wondered if the real complaint isn't the checkpoint system but the fact that acting like a jerk isn't the way to succeed.

Tlaero

No i’d argue it’s an aggravating system(that delivers the opposite of any sense of characterization choice) . People are pretty used to gameovers for complete jerk behavior.

 

[Tlaero]

No i’d Say it’s an aggravating system(that delivers the opposite of choice or even the illusion of choice in any degree of characterization) . People are pretty used to gameovers for complete jerk behavior.

So, treat it like a game over. If you get to T&T, ignore the help they're trying to give you and restore your game. Why is that any different?

Tlaero

 

[xsssssssss]

So, treat it like a game over. If you get to T&T, ignore the help they're trying to give you and restore your game. Why is that any different?

Tlaero

Difference for me is feeling of having zero say over the character behavior and every checkpoint being an aggravating abrupt game over. Maybe it was accidental that earlier games maintained some illusion to me of character input and path through story not being wholly linear.

 

[timkaizer]

Havent't read the whole thread yet so maybe some redundant stuff in my post - Forgive me if that's the case.

In terms of story line I think it's one of the best games yet. Switching between past and present, telling the present in parallel from different points of views without making it confusing. That's just great. Also the ideas of how the characters are connected. Love it.

In terms of gameplay I still think "Saving Cloe" is still the best one. Different routes that lead to different endings with one ending being the true one. It's straight forward but still fun to figure out which choices actually lead to different paths. It also opens up the oppurtunity for characters to be unfaithful without ruining their relationships in the big picture / future games.

Rendering are just as great as always.

I think the game has one serious flaw compared to the previous "elsaverse" games: While in most of the games the sex scenes felt very natural in this one they don't. The scenes itself are great but to me they feel forced into the game and into the characters. Not natural to the characters at all. Here are some points that bothered me:

• Almost all woman seem to be lesbian or bi-sexual.
• Lot of the characters see each other for the first time and somehow end up talking about group sex in their first meeting.
• Serena seems to be fine with rimjobs but later seems to be very unexperienced with other anal stuff. I feel like if you're at the point of rimjobs you've probably done other stuff before that. So that's not quite adding up.
• The overall focus on foursomes bothered me. Not like that happens all the time in reality

At the same time other opportunities for great scenes were missed:

• Right after Serena got healed I felt like it would be natural for her to want to make her healer feel better. She had endured that pain for weeks and knows exactly what the healer had taken up onto herself. Maybe a hug leading to more since they liked each other from the start...
• A 1-1 scene between Beth and Joel is missing. That would be perfect for an alternative "saving cloe" like ending. Having safed each other must have formed a connection between them that should have eventually lead to sex.

It felt like that no one was supposed the "betray" anyone in this game. And that contraint wasn't healthy overall.

That's just my opinion though. Please keep up making these great games.

 

[Raife]

I would like to understand if the feedback is actually "I want to act differently than you're allowing me to" and not "I don't like that you're making me figure stuff out."

Tlaero

Tlaero -- two things.

First, I am almost sure that the real complaint from some players is that the agency you've given Joel is necessarily limited. He already has a fully formed personality, and there are some approaches he will not take and moral choices he will not consider. That's fair, as far as I'm concerned: your prerogative as the dev of a narrative-driven game is to create a compelling character (you succeeded) and allow the player the chance to shape his choices a little.

Personally, I dislike games that create tabula rasa MCs, which allow the player to shape them into anything from a paragon of virtue to a complete psychopath. That allows the player maximum agency, but tends to preclude the creation of compelling narratives or characters. It works for pure porn games, of course... but that's not what you do.

So... please don't listen too much to the peanut gallery. I play your games for your stories and characters... and had zero problem successfully making the 'best' choices with Joel... particularly with your clever gameplay device.

Second, please do check out jufot's story-driven games thread. It's a little sanctuary on this hellsite where we can have mature discussions about games like yours. (Your creations with Mortze have already featured.)

 

[blackmagic616]

I have wondered if the real complaint isn't the checkpoint system but the fact that acting like a jerk isn't the way to succeed.

Tlaero

It is funny, because it actually is the way to succeed, at least for women in your games. Why being a jerk works for female, but not for male characters? Could you explain this, Mrs. Tatiana/Tanya/Tlaero?

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Thanks in advance for your facepalms, women's defenders!