Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 56] [CSDev]

[Kackuyen]

Custom chosen feed back:
It seem that if you inport a Roster, and then change the species of a chosen, most of the customise part will be reset. I don't think it suppose to be like so. May be the issue lies in the Ros files was made from older versions

 

[SuperSkippy]

This is useful feedback! Even if a 44-cost Devil is slightly less difficult than the 22-cost Animalistic+Undead she can replace, she also frees up another slot for another advanced species to show up (compared to separate Animalistic and Undead Chosen taking up two Chosen slots), so this sounds about right. I'm also curious to hear how doubled Devils measure up against other species pairs (although I understand that there's no guarantee that you're going to run into that this release).

I think this is actually a good time to start addressing issues like this. The focus is moving toward lategame content, which means that there's a decent chunk of gameplay time before the player sees it. There's also an increasing amount of gameplay based around how you manage your roster of Forsaken, so it's important to give the player the tools to do that.

Currently, I'm adding a very simple summary of Forsaken status to the base Forsaken menu. The Stamina and Motivation displays are color-coded so that you can tell at a glance whether they're above or below the important thresholds. Gray for undeployable, green for receiving a special bonus (like Devil's Contract or Playful Energy), orange for tantruming, red for undeployable and tantruming. Adding some indication of next turn's change would be nice, but some of it depends on what you do this turn, so I'm not sure how to concisely do that. Further suggestions as I work on this are welcome.

View attachment 3150512

Incidentally, Splendor's effect on Motivation should be displayed during the Forsaken downtime display (or at least, it is on my end). But it's wrapped along with any other Motivation changes and displayed as a single number, so that might be why you missed it. I'm not sure if it would be better to do it another way.

You're correct, it's showing as combined with others. Maybe include a line about it along with the other Forsaken, seems like she's doing more than this:

During her daily routine, Splendor is confronted by a Thrall with a recording of her being humiliated, but Splendor doesn't let it get to her. (+60.0% Stamina)

My thinking is that we should have an informational overview accessible from one click "Forsaken Info" in the Forsaken menu, with the following info, maybe arranged this way:

                Stamina              Motivation          Deploy (EE,Sta,Mot)  Damage Type  Downtime Activity
Impurity        60.0/100.0 (+31.6)   25.8/100.0 (-6.7)   15,20,37.1           PLEA         Training PLEA/EXPO (63.9K/21.1K)
Whisper         100.0/100.0 (+0)     3.7/100.0 (+39.1)   196,20,12            PLEA/EXPO    Trainer (TANTRUM)
Shield          100.0/100.0 (+0)     65.7/100.0 (-7.8)   218,20,47.6          EXPO         Training Disgrace (22%)
Chaos           76.0/100 (-20.0)     76.3/100.0 (-38.2)  4,20,31.5            CON          N/A (Deploying)

I'd color the following ways:: Color the Forsaken's name with orange if tantruming. Color the Forsaken's name with gray if undeployable and not tantruming. If they're undeployable, color the stat that makes them undeployable in red, and include EE in that scheme. Color the word TANTRUM under downtime activity orange. The goal is making a screen that people can answer a lot of questions at once without cross-referencing information and allow them to collect information about who they can deploy, what it costs, and what damage they get.

I think most players will understand or learn, for example, that if you change the Chosen's activity by deploying them or training them, then that will change their downtime and Motivation/Stamina changes may apply to others.. Including that info in this table is another hint in this direction that also gives players useful info.

There might be room for one or two more columns, but I'm not sure what they should be. Regardless this would be a powerful tool for players to read the current gamestate and how it applies to their Forsaken.

View attachment 3150517
I really like this suggestion! It's nice when the thematic thing lines up with gameplay needs.

The entire idea behind Splendor was that her boss fight loop is much easier than Victory's, but the "actual" boss fight takes place over the following loops while you struggle to deal with having her work against you from the inside. The problem is that it doesn't feel much like a boss fight, because there's so little counterplay. (Obviously, the interface problems don't help, but I think that even with a perfect interface, the system wouldn't be doing what it needs to.)

Being able to use her flexible nature against her would remedy that (not to mention that it would be a wonderful counterpart to how Victory's inflexibility is used against her). It's going to be really tricky to balance, of course, but I think you're on the right track here. I'm firmly adding this to my development plans, to be finished before moving on to the next round of boss fights.

Glad this was useful for you.

 

[Celerarity]

Adding the Forsaken Punisher effect list to more screens would be easy enough on my end, so it's just a matter of putting it on a screen that's not already full. Where else would you like to see it?

At a minimum, being able to navigate to it from a Forsaken's page (or subpage) instead of having to back out to the assign menu would be a big improvement. The menu showing every Forsaken's affects is good when you are trying to pick who to put in a slot, but when you're training a forsaken and need to remember what this specific one does that's a real pain.

It could be under Stats, or Herself, or anywhere really.

 

[Scepticism]

Most packs currently don't even have enough images for each character's varying forms, much less multiple ones for random expressions, so it's unlikely that winds up being a priority feature. There's a lot of Chosen and good art isn't easy to come by.

Who knows, Santa may just bring you a present this year?
Guess you'll just have to wait until christmas to find out...

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[Plaster8397]

After the latest update R48, I can't enable cheats from the options menu. It's not there. I checked the release notes and I only see references that the difficulty modifier was changed. How do we enable cheats in the latest version?

 

[SuperSkippy]

After the latest update R48, I can't enable cheats from the options menu. It's not there. I checked the release notes and I only see references that the difficulty modifier was changed. How do we enable cheats in the latest version?

Go to the options menu and press (I think) Shift+C. I think that the option shows up automatically after you complete a playthrough, but that's the way to manually turn it on.

 

[McHuman]

After the latest update R48, I can't enable cheats from the options menu. It's not there. I checked the release notes and I only see references that the difficulty modifier was changed. How do we enable cheats in the latest version?

Sometimes the cheats toggle doesn't appear for some reason, "C" is the hotkey for enabling it though and works even if the cheats option isn't appearing, so just hit C on your keyboard if you want to turn it on.

 

[CluelessLemon]

So I have a question about training forsaken. I have read through both the documents but am still unsure on something. To increase corruption you need to train at an intensity higher than the current corruption stat, but does the mitigating factors play a role in this. For example if I would train a forsaken with something they would normally refuse but due to the buff they now consent does that no longer affect corruption gain?

Also do you need to do another training session after exceeding the value for the corruption to take place. I ask this as I just had a situation where the value didn't increase despite being well above the current level in a stat, however if I did another training session it would have increased the stat.

 

[SuperSkippy]

So I have a question about training forsaken. I have read through both the documents but am still unsure on something. To increase corruption you need to train at an intensity higher than the current corruption stat, but does the mitigating factors play a role in this. For example if I would train a forsaken with something they would normally refuse but due to the buff they now consent does that no longer affect corruption gain?

Also do you need to do another training session after exceeding the value for the corruption to take place. I ask this as I just had a situation where the value didn't increase despite being well above the current level in a stat, however if I did another training session it would have increased the stat.

Whether or not a Forsaken would refuse a training is based on a different stat than when they would gain corruption. The Obedience modifier determines whether or not they consent to training. There's a table relating the Obedience stat to its modifier in the forsaken reference.txt file. This can be a bonus, or, if Obedience is below 25, a penalty. There are other modifiers on training that are listed in the section just below the one that mentions Obedience that include having loved ones among your Forsaken, breaking vulnerabilities for the first time, and the intensity of the training.

However, whether a Forsaken will gain corruption from a training is based on a much simpler calculation. If the total training intensity is greater than their current related stat, plus 1/2 of their Deviancy, they'll gain corruption in the related stat. If they aren't consenting, they'll also gain Obedience equal to the amount of other stats they gain.

These two things, consent and stat change, don't affect each other. For example, here's Purgatory:

Hostility: 60% (Pessimistic about humanity)
Deviancy: 27% (Elaborate sexual fantasies)
Obedience: 33% (Obeys when convenient)
Disgrace: 51% (Seen as purely evil)

I have her stats basically where I want them, but we'll use her to demonstrate. If I wanted to raise her Disgrace, so that her natural cost would be less, I'd need to raise her Disgrace intensity above 51 + (33/2) = 67.5. A Grand Concert would do that, but she won't consent to Grand Concert. Her modifiers are:
+13 (obedience)
-49 (intensity exceeds current corruption)
+30 (rampant)
-6 Total

So, I'd need to raise her Obedience by about 6 points, or her Disgrace by about 6 points, if I wanted to start her off with Grand Concert.

The other way to get her above 67.5% intensity in one session would be Broadcast (70% Hostility & Disgrace). But this is even harder to do, because her Hostility is also below 70%.

Therefore, it'll take combinations of actions to get her there. The simplest action should be Attach Toys followed by Broadcast.
Attach Toys has the lowest Obedience intensity of all Obedience trainings.
Consent factors:
+13 (obedience)
+12 (accustomed to similar circumstances)
+25 Total

And now, she can no longer resist Broadcast, since she has an Obedience training applied. When I try to Broadcast now, I see this:
+13 (obedience)
-29 (intensity exceeds current corruption)
-16 Total

"You can make me go into battle, but you can't make me go along with something this big. I'll give everyone my own message, and you won't like what I have to say..."

Corruption Increase: +2% Obedience, +2% Disgrace

As you see, she goes up in Disgrace because her Disgrace intensity (70%) is now above the threshold calculated above (67.5%) The +2 Obedience happens because she is not consenting to the training, so all of her other stat changes also apply to Obedience.

An action that would cause larger changes would be Public Confinement followed by Broadcast--this would change them both by 3% instead of 2%. The reason this is different is because Public Confinement also adds to Disgrace intensity. The total intensity in a training stat is (Highest intensity + number of other trainings in that stat * 5), so it makes her Disgrace intensity 75% instead of just 70%.

Of course, all of this presumes that you have a reason to want to raise a Corruption stat. On my useful Forsaken the only one I really want to raise is Disgrace when a Forsaken costs too much. On useless Forsaken I'm trying to raise Obedience so they'll consent to the top tier trainings that allow me to drain EE from them (Drain Soul, very rarely), or deal ANGST damage to the Chosen (somewhat uncommon), or restore the motivation/stamina of other Forsaken (Grand Concert). Higher Corruption is usually not better. What do you want to raise, and why?

 

[CluelessLemon]

Whether or not a Forsaken would refuse a training is based on a different stat than when they would gain corruption. The Obedience modifier determines whether or not they consent to training. There's a table relating the Obedience stat to its modifier in the forsaken reference.txt file. This can be a bonus, or, if Obedience is below 25, a penalty. There are other modifiers on training that are listed in the section just below the one that mentions Obedience that include having loved ones among your Forsaken, breaking vulnerabilities for the first time, and the intensity of the training.

However, whether a Forsaken will gain corruption from a training is based on a much simpler calculation. If the total training intensity is greater than their current related stat, plus 1/2 of their Deviancy, they'll gain corruption in the related stat. If they aren't consenting, they'll also gain Obedience equal to the amount of other stats they gain.

These two things, consent and stat change, don't affect each other. For example, here's Purgatory:

Hostility: 60% (Pessimistic about humanity)
Deviancy: 27% (Elaborate sexual fantasies)
Obedience: 33% (Obeys when convenient)
Disgrace: 51% (Seen as purely evil)

I have her stats basically where I want them, but we'll use her to demonstrate. If I wanted to raise her Disgrace, so that her natural cost would be less, I'd need to raise her Disgrace intensity above 51 + (33/2) = 67.5. A Grand Concert would do that, but she won't consent to Grand Concert. Her modifiers are:
+13 (obedience)
-49 (intensity exceeds current corruption)
+30 (rampant)
-6 Total

So, I'd need to raise her Obedience by about 6 points, or her Disgrace by about 6 points, if I wanted to start her off with Grand Concert.

The other way to get her above 67.5% intensity in one session would be Broadcast (70% Hostility & Disgrace). But this is even harder to do, because her Hostility is also below 70%.

Therefore, it'll take combinations of actions to get her there. The simplest action should be Attach Toys followed by Broadcast.
Attach Toys has the lowest Obedience intensity of all Obedience trainings.
Consent factors:
+13 (obedience)
+12 (accustomed to similar circumstances)
+25 Total

And now, she can no longer resist Broadcast, since she has an Obedience training applied. When I try to Broadcast now, I see this:
+13 (obedience)
-29 (intensity exceeds current corruption)
-16 Total

"You can make me go into battle, but you can't make me go along with something this big. I'll give everyone my own message, and you won't like what I have to say..."

Corruption Increase: +2% Obedience, +2% Disgrace

As you see, she goes up in Disgrace because her Disgrace intensity (70%) is now above the threshold calculated above (67.5%) The +2 Obedience happens because she is not consenting to the training, so all of her other stat changes also apply to Obedience.

An action that would cause larger changes would be Public Confinement followed by Broadcast--this would change them both by 3% instead of 2%. The reason this is different is because Public Confinement also adds to Disgrace intensity. The total intensity in a training stat is (Highest intensity + number of other trainings in that stat * 5), so it makes her Disgrace intensity 75% instead of just 70%.

Of course, all of this presumes that you have a reason to want to raise a Corruption stat. On my useful Forsaken the only one I really want to raise is Disgrace when a Forsaken costs too much. On useless Forsaken I'm trying to raise Obedience so they'll consent to the top tier trainings that allow me to drain EE from them (Drain Soul, very rarely), or deal ANGST damage to the Chosen (somewhat uncommon), or restore the motivation/stamina of other Forsaken (Grand Concert). Higher Corruption is usually not better. What do you want to raise, and why?

Thank you for the in depth explanation, I had no idea that deviancy had any role in the calculation as I couldn't see it mentioned in the documents. Unless I missed it and I'm an idiot, which is a very real possibility.

I think my plan yesterday was to boost obedience on those who it was below 50% on as I read that was the requirment they all needed to have before being trained in a punisher; which is probably a bad idea, but eh. First time doing this so I'm bound to make mistakes.

Random question but to confirm, can you train the any of the punishers so long as you did obedience training earlier that session. I assume you still need the base 50% in the requried stats though.

 

[wibblywarble]

It feels really hard to get hypnotism % compared to drain and striptease. I'm not really sure how to efficiently raise hypnosis % a good amount.

 

[Celerarity]

It feels really hard to get hypnotism % compared to drain and striptease. I'm not really sure how to efficiently raise hypnosis % a good amount.

Hypnosis is probably one of the easiest to raise. It goes up when the Chosen use Fantasize, which they'll use pretty often if they have any PLEA and are left alone for a turn. Unlike Drain and Slaughter which need active captures to screw with, Fantasize can basically be left alone to cook. You'll get more levels in a punisher if the chosen has a high circumstance when they use its associated break, if I remember right.

 

[McHuman]

Random question but to confirm, can you train the any of the punishers so long as you did obedience training earlier that session. I assume you still need the base 50% in the requried stats though.

If by train the punishers you mean the last tier of training that gives a trait to the Forsaken for doing (Assist Raid, Instill Fixation, Drain Soul, and Grand Concert), then no, those can only be done if they're the first training used in a training session.

 

[SuperSkippy]

Thank you for the in depth explanation, I had no idea that deviancy had any role in the calculation as I couldn't see it mentioned in the documents. Unless I missed it and I'm an idiot, which is a very real possibility.

I think my plan yesterday was to boost obedience on those who it was below 50% on as I read that was the requirment they all needed to have before being trained in a punisher; which is probably a bad idea, but eh. First time doing this so I'm bound to make mistakes.

Random question but to confirm, can you train the any of the punishers so long as you did obedience training earlier that session. I assume you still need the base 50% in the requried stats though.

All of the T4 training, which trains punisher effectiveness/specialty, must be the first training action, so you can't do an Obedience training first. Unless you're training the CON punisher, of course, since Drain Soul is an Obedience training they won't be able to resist that one, ever.

It feels really hard to get hypnotism % compared to drain and striptease. I'm not really sure how to efficiently raise hypnosis % a good amount.

Yeah, standard chosen only go up a few % per PLEA level for Hypnosis. So what you do depends a lot on how much EE you have to throw at the problem.

The EE efficient solution is 6 turns, 3 captures, basic commander, costing 14EE. Capture each one as they come in. Try to find an initial Chosen that doesn't have any allies coming in on Turn 7 so you can Capture each one as they come in. Set up the three for an Orgy, but don't take it. Use whatever Defiler moves you want on the Chosen, until you know the next one to break free will put Extermination over the top. When your Extermination is about to fill up next time a Chosen breaks free, Inseminate whatever Chosen has the least turns remaining and Force+ the other two. When the first Chosen breaks out, let her be free to use moves until the other two are one turn away from breaking out, then Surround her and let the other two do moves. Each time, when there's one turn remaining on a Surrounded Chosen, Surround the next one in line and Force her. Don't even try this if you don't have Networked Consciousness.

If you've got more EE to throw at the problem, use 5 captures and Flight on this basic commander, costing 54 EE, which means you're spending down your EE slightly if you're getting 45EE/day. You play this one just as above with your first three captures, but then once they're all flying, you can Capture two of them in sequence to make sure that each of them uses Fantasize on each stat (4x per Chosen). This plays out like the last one, but better. Use this if you're getting 45EE per turn at least and have Passion Release and Soul Resonance. Both of these methods use a basic Commander to avoid the Chosen using Self Destruct.

If you've got even more EE to throw at the problem because you're getting 150EE/day, use one with PLEA Punisher, INJU/EXPO Defiler, HATE Suppressor. 4-5 turns and 5 captures, for 106-108EE. You want to be able to Surround each of them after your Commander gets through with them. As before you'll Force+ the last two to break free and Inseminate the one that will put your Extermination% over the top when she breaks out. You can only create this Commander with Completion, an endgame upgrade.

 

[TheFakeOne23]

For Forsaken: When assigning them positions, how does "-variable%" work compared to a fixed number such as "-400%". Does the mean the variable is random? Or is it supposed to have a fixed variable?
So far I´ve only seen it happening on a Undead Forsaken generated by the new Kaleidoscope (In fact all 4 of her punisher bonuses have it). It´s also my first Undead Forsaken, so if it´s normal I wouldn´t know.

 

[mathiau]

For Forsaken: When assigning them positions, how does "-variable%" work compared to a fixed number such as "-400%". Does the mean the variable is random? Or is it supposed to have a fixed variable?
So far I´ve only seen it happening on a Undead Forsaken generated by the new Kaleidoscope (In fact all 4 of her punisher bonuses have it).

variable% is a mechanic specific to Forsaken beaten with the Rampancy distortion. Their mechanic is that instead of having a fixed cost and power they use all of your energy to be deployed and will have a power* calculated both by the energy spent and their deviancy (where normally both the energy cost and power are determined by their deviancy). I don't know the formula iirc it's supposed to be more energy efficient to use an amount of energy clause to the one a forsaken of their deviancy would normally have, but it can scale of infinitely if you go beyond that (you can find how cost normally work in the "forsaken reference" file in the game)

*power means both damage dealt and the efficiency of punisher effects

 

[TheFakeOne23]

Ooooh, okay, thanks^^
I usually avoid Rampancy since it´s so bothersome to work with, so I didn´t realize.

 

[ShadowBlaze94]

Also, if there are multiple forsaken that have the same effect, but different %, it'll show up as variable% when you go to assign positions since it can't show every value

 

[wibblywarble]

All of the T4 training, which trains punisher effectiveness/specialty, must be the first training action, so you can't do an Obedience training first. Unless you're training the CON punisher, of course, since Drain Soul is an Obedience training they won't be able to resist that one, ever.




Yeah, standard chosen only go up a few % per PLEA level for Hypnosis. So what you do depends a lot on how much EE you have to throw at the problem.

The EE efficient solution is 6 turns, 3 captures, basic commander, costing 14EE. Capture each one as they come in. Try to find an initial Chosen that doesn't have any allies coming in on Turn 7 so you can Capture each one as they come in. Set up the three for an Orgy, but don't take it. Use whatever Defiler moves you want on the Chosen, until you know the next one to break free will put Extermination over the top. When your Extermination is about to fill up next time a Chosen breaks free, Inseminate whatever Chosen has the least turns remaining and Force+ the other two. When the first Chosen breaks out, let her be free to use moves until the other two are one turn away from breaking out, then Surround her and let the other two do moves. Each time, when there's one turn remaining on a Surrounded Chosen, Surround the next one in line and Force her. Don't even try this if you don't have Networked Consciousness.

If you've got more EE to throw at the problem, use 5 captures and Flight on this basic commander, costing 54 EE, which means you're spending down your EE slightly if you're getting 45EE/day. You play this one just as above with your first three captures, but then once they're all flying, you can Capture two of them in sequence to make sure that each of them uses Fantasize on each stat (4x per Chosen). This plays out like the last one, but better. Use this if you're getting 45EE per turn at least and have Passion Release and Soul Resonance. Both of these methods use a basic Commander to avoid the Chosen using Self Destruct.

If you've got even more EE to throw at the problem because you're getting 150EE/day, use one with PLEA Punisher, INJU/EXPO Defiler, HATE Suppressor. 4-5 turns and 5 captures, for 106-108EE. You want to be able to Surround each of them after your Commander gets through with them. As before you'll Force+ the last two to break free and Inseminate the one that will put your Extermination% over the top when she breaks out. You can only create this Commander with Completion, an endgame upgrade.

I'm confused how this works. As far as I can tell the fantasizing and striptease actions don't reset when you surround them so at most you can only get teach one of them to do fantasize and striptease four times per battle.

 

[SuperSkippy]

I'm confused how this works. As far as I can tell the fantasizing and striptease actions don't reset when you surround them so at most you can only get teach one of them to do fantasize and striptease four times per battle.

4x is plenty if you start out by raising their circumstance levels instead of just waiting for them to start the battle with Fantasize. The one that Stripteased will do it again if you surround another Forsaken after the time she Stripteased. The t4 break % depends on the level the Chosen is in that circumstance, so if you raise it before they start doing the move, it'll go up faster. Your goal is to keep them all surrounded until Extermination% is full, building up lots of opening levels and circumstance damage, and then once Extermination is full, surround them one at a time to maximize both the number of times they do the moves and the % that the t4 break goes up by.
(I'm assuming first loop of the campaign, because this can change a bit once Forsaken get involved.)