Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 58] [CSDev]

[Sonsuka]

Maybe for the first couple loops, but beyond Loop 2 or 3 you will hit a wall where you have to learn how to build Forsaken as by loop 3 or 4 the modifiers and Superior Chosen will make relying on Commanders ineffective, and learning how you should build Forsaken is a lot more complicated than basically every other system in the game. I definitely wouldn't say the learning curve is vertical as you'll generally have Loop 2 to figure out Forsaken, and Loop 3 if you don't pick the city with the Superior Chosen, so you'll have time to work on figuring things out before you hit that wall, but an inexperienced player will almost certainly lose to their first loop with non-basic Chosen if they haven't managed to learn Forsaken training and make decent Forsaken yet.

While I do agree this game has a vertical wall instead of a curve I do disagree with this statement. You can totally just not use forsaken at all as commanders and use generic commanders I actually prefer doing so even up to loop 10+. I do think that the item that lets you skip the energy point yesterday’s newspaper i think it was is completely overpowered and the balance of the game feels like its built around it. Saves wayy to much energy. Honestly could see a rebalance for some stuff like animalistic traits kinda sucking in comparrison to others. Could do a poll maybe based on community opinion. Honestly the issue of a tutorial or balance could be an update itself i suppose, maybe with images with arrows on a pdf guide to explain it. The textfile fully explains it, but visual learners do exist I suppose

 

[deviantartaaa]

Pre broken vulnerabilities kidna suck tbh

Also I wish there was something to do when you feel like a day is gonna be pointless and you could just skip the day to get the EE

And something to do the first... 10 or so days until you get to the 5EE commander

 

[McHuman]

While I do agree this game has a vertical wall instead of a curve I do disagree with this statement. You can totally just not use forsaken at all as commanders and use generic commanders I actually prefer doing so even up to loop 10+. I do think that the item that lets you skip the energy point yesterday’s newspaper i think it was is completely overpowered and the balance of the game feels like its built around it. Saves wayy to much energy. Honestly could see a rebalance for some stuff like animalistic traits kinda sucking in comparrison to others. Could do a poll maybe based on community opinion. Honestly the issue of a tutorial or balance could be an update itself i suppose, maybe with images with arrows on a pdf guide to explain it. The textfile fully explains it, but visual learners do exist I suppose

Yeah using Commanders exclusively outside the early loops is certainly possible, but I'm talking with regards to newer players. If you're experienced enough to make using Commanders exclusively up to loop 10+ possible, you're experienced enough to build Forsaken.

 

[Contemplative Yearning]

Also I wish there was something to do when you feel like a day is gonna be pointless and you could just skip the day to get the EE

And something to do the first... 10 or so days until you get to the 5EE commander

Unicorn Lard is a starting item that lets you skip a day for extra EE based on the number of items you own, and also guarantees that a new Chosen will show up in the next fight, effectively solving both issues at once

 

[Sonsuka]

Pre broken vulnerabilities kidna suck tbh

Also I wish there was something to do when you feel like a day is gonna be pointless and you could just skip the day to get the EE

And something to do the first... 10 or so days until you get to the 5EE commander

I mean even if you skip the day you can still do some damage. Especially if you have items for example. But yah you’re not wrong, but I feel thematically it makes sense. The heroes would kinda suck if you could corrupt them in a matter of a week.

 

[Sonsuka]

Yeah using Commanders exclusively outside the early loops is certainly possible, but I'm talking with regards to newer players. If you're experienced enough to make using Commanders exclusively up to loop 10+ possible, you're experienced enough to build Forsaken.

That is fair. I think maybe in future I might just make simple pdf of just image explaning a day cycle in the early, mid, late game of whats happening. I kinda understand why nobody has done it yet in image because little confusing where explain really with images, we got lot text explanations in this thread. While the enjoyment of figuring out which tree to max is cool, I do agree that new player will struggle not because they aren’t doing anything but visually there is no reward as they will not be able to understand what the issue do to it being numbers and equation in background unless they sit down and try figure it out.
I think main issue personally is the item unlocks all the EE upgrades feels like a requirement as its just too ridiculously strong. It really helps to have it.

 

[CSdev]

Rather than adding special interactions to make the Angel/Devil pairing less punishing, I'll probably just make it cost more difficulty points during loop generation instead. It's definitely harder, but it's not fundamentally impossible. They're still vulnerable to blitz tactics that rely more on bonus EE than on daily EE, and some of the upcoming heavyweight items will work quite well against them too. I think it should be plenty possible to make a plan and prepare for the challenge (though we'll see if I still feel this way after I've done a proper playtest against them).

An update on this: I actually found the Angel/Devil combo to be much less difficult than expected. The reason is that there's a major antisynergy in their ANGST-related abilities. Devils get much stronger when both allies have a lot of ANGST. But Angels try to interfere with your EE generation by absorbing ANGST and unresolved trauma from allies. If a Devil's two allies have 2G ANGST each, then they each have a +30 damage bonus and the Devil gets a -120 incoming damage penalty. But if a Devil has one ally with 4G ANGST and one with 0 ANGST, then that one ally has a +31 damage bonus and the other has +0, which means that the Devil gets only a -62 incoming damage penalty. This makes it much easier to pile damage on the Devil and ensure that she doesn't castigate her allies too hard.

I'd be curious as to the experiences of other players who have fought Angels and Devils together, but as things stand, I think I might have to make Judgment a bit more powerful than I had originally planned.

Ha now I want the ability to purposefully let heroines escape at the end of the loop so the daemon king can go "Curses foiled again! I'll get you next time!" alla the 80's cartoon show trope. The team becomes a recursing fight as the heroines improve after recovering from their ordeals, and the overall, and you get an increased bonus for the number of times you spared them....

Eh probably too hard to code, but a man can dream.

Well, I didn't want to assume the player's motivations, so there's no specific flavor about the Demon Lord "deliberately" letting Chosen escape. But it's a legitimate strategy to take your moves from the Saturday morning cartoon villain's playbook. If only one heroine remains at the end of the fight, she can try to escape, and she'll keep any Distortions you put on her when she returns to fight you again.

The addition of Reign should be interesting.

so we have boss fights at
lvl 7 reign
lvl 11 victory or splendor
lvl 14 reign
lvl 16 (victory or judgement) or (splendor or love)
lvl 21 ?

Loop 21 is where things get interesting, will we have reign joining whichever of the four bosses remain? Will be have the choice of three cities each with one boss? or will we just randomly get two of the three unlocked bosses.

The boss fights are actually 5, 10, 15, etc., so they don't line up with Reign's appearances until Loop 35. But if it helps your speculation, I can tell you that Loop 35 is also planned as the end of campaign mode.

Speaking of the new post, just my personal feedback to CSDev regarding the static characters. Personally I feel like if you're going to make static boss characters they should be significant. Yeah we like the customization and and personal stories independent from the game itself, but there is still an overarching story in the game and the bosses are relevant to that, so the static boss characters should be significant and get their own special personalized stuff like unique scenes interacting with them. Like... these static bosses are the only opportunity to do something like that in this game and the bosses are already important, might as well commit to that as long as it doesn't negatively effect development.

Adding to the new post as well. I'm down for more customization after the new boss is done. I think a "traditional visual novel-style sex scenes. " would be interesting; however, the payout of having to do specific things or getting deep into a run does feel like something that could be help off for couple updates to help improve the customization which everyone would be able to enjoy at anypoint of time where it be that you get random Chosen deeper in loop and making Chosen before the campaign even starts.

Thanks for the feedback. This is definitely a tricky development question, because the original appeal of the game was in the customizable "generic" Chosen, and I don't want to pull the rug out from under people who want more of that. There's only so much development time in each month.

bug report: The game cant decide if im in a distortion path or not
I had a chosen in tempting distortion.

orgy, then her biggest vulnerability was confidence

I catch her and she now explodes, now I cant change her distortion to any,AND
her final battle behavior is still "lose all resolve when tempted".

Vulnerabilities
Morality: FEAR |----- HATE <= Minor Vulnerability: Surround w/ >10k HATE to Inseminate
Innocence: DISG ---|----- PLEA <= Minor Vulnerability: Reach 100M Unresolved DISG
Confidence: PAIN ----=|----- INJU <= Significant Vulnerability: Surround w/ >10k INJU to Sodomize
Dignity: SHAM ----|--- EXPO <= Core Vulnerability: Use Grind and Humiliate to approach 10k HATE or EXPO
NO DISTORTION COUNT------------------------------------>
Unresolved Trauma: 0 FEAR, 0 DISG, 0 PAIN, 0 SHAM. 0 ANGST (+0 base damage)<----------------------RESOLVED DAMAGE AS IF DISTORTED
Yesterday's Evil Energy generation: 15 EE (Distortion-related Downtime Action.)
^DISTORTION EVIL ENERGY GENERATED
Relationship with Miracle: Rivals (arrives on Round 8 when Pounce is targeted)
Relationship with Edge: Solid Friendship (arrives on Round 5 when Pounce is targeted)

Final battle behavior:
Starts with 300% Resolve
Only willing to sacrifice Miracle when Miracle's Resolve is lower than 50%
Reluctantly willing to sacrifice Edge due to the latter's obvious corruption
Immediately loses all Resolve when Tempted (requires 157k PLEA)<-------------THE GAME STILL KEEPS COUNT OF HOW MUCH I NEED FOR TEMPT



Overall corruption progress:

Miracle +2 T1 T2 T3 T4
MOR (core) [X][X][X][/][ ]
INN (sig) [X][X][X][?] 250%
CON (min) [X][X][X][ ] 400%
DIG (sig) [X][X][X][ ] 260%

Edge +2 T1 T2 T3 T4
MOR (sig) [~][~][~][~]
INN (core) [X][X][X][X][?] 442%
CON (core) [X][X][~][~][~]
DIG (min) [X][X][X][ ] 300%

Pounce +2 T1 T2 T3 T4
MOR (min) [~][~][~][~]
INN (min) [X][X][ ][ ] <- current weakness
CON (sig) [X][~][~][~] 140%--------------> THE GAME ALSO CONSIDERS IM BREAKING HER CONFIDENCE
DIG (core) [X][ ][X][ ][ ]

I dunno, but they are supposed to lose their distortion path if they do something not allowed by it. Explosion sounds like that sort of thing - you have to avoid triggering her doing that.

Basically, no big boy commanders, only normal surrounds and the unaspected commanders that just surround a girl normally. Then she'll never lose hope enough to explode. Since you're Tempting her that's probably what you're trying to do anyway.

BTW the other triggers are, IIRC, also surrounds, but they trigger for normal surrounds. They'll do it if their total amount of some trauma is too high.

No, fenyx is right, this is a bug. Once you fully trigger a Distortion, the incompatible T1 and T3 Breaks should no longer happen, no matter how much damage you deal. I believe that what happened is that some of the code for triggering Temptation using one of the Forsaken doesn't properly account for if the victim has already had the "Over 100M PAIN" message happen during downtime. Normally, when triggering a Distortion, the game should check to see whether an incompatible T3 move has been enabled but not used for the first time yet, and if it has, then the game should reverse that process. But that code doesn't seem to have been added in the proper place back when I reworked how the Forsaken Tempt action worked. If I'm right about what's causing this, then it should be fixed in R56.

 

[McHuman]

Thanks for the feedback. This is definitely a tricky development question, because the original appeal of the game was in the customizable "generic" Chosen, and I don't want to pull the rug out from under people who want more of that. There's only so much development time in each month.

Oh yeah I definitely understand that, hence why I mentioned "as long as it doesn't negatively effect development". Obviously the priority of development should be on the main appeal of the game, but I don't think anyone would complain if you work on things like boss scenes in the background when there is free development time.

 

[SuperSkippy]

An update on this: I actually found the Angel/Devil combo to be much less difficult than expected. The reason is that there's a major antisynergy in their ANGST-related abilities. Devils get much stronger when both allies have a lot of ANGST. But Angels try to interfere with your EE generation by absorbing ANGST and unresolved trauma from allies. If a Devil's two allies have 2G ANGST each, then they each have a +30 damage bonus and the Devil gets a -120 incoming damage penalty. But if a Devil has one ally with 4G ANGST and one with 0 ANGST, then that one ally has a +31 damage bonus and the other has +0, which means that the Devil gets only a -62 incoming damage penalty. This makes it much easier to pile damage on the Devil and ensure that she doesn't castigate her allies too hard.

I'd be curious as to the experiences of other players who have fought Angels and Devils together, but as things stand, I think I might have to make Judgment a bit more powerful than I had originally planned.

I hadn't considered that at all. I was looking at trying some of those loops this playthrough with the idea that I could get the Despair Achievement high enough to break through.

Well, I didn't want to assume the player's motivations, so there's no specific flavor about the Demon Lord "deliberately" letting Chosen escape. But it's a legitimate strategy to take your moves from the Saturday morning cartoon villain's playbook. If only one heroine remains at the end of the fight, she can try to escape, and she'll keep any Distortions you put on her when she returns to fight you again.

They only escape when they have no Tier 4 breaks, right? I haven't looked at the code for this, but I know if they have a T4 CON break, they kill themselves (and can come back as Undead? Or is that only when they're killed by another Chosen? Not sure) and if they have a T4 MOR break, they're imprisoned by the military (presumably gone for the game?) I've never actually let one that only had T4 INN or T4 DIG survive so I'm not sure what happens there.

The boss fights are actually 5, 10, 15, etc., so they don't line up with Reign's appearances until Loop 35. But if it helps your speculation, I can tell you that Loop 35 is also planned as the end of campaign mode.

Thanks for the feedback. This is definitely a tricky development question, because the original appeal of the game was in the customizable "generic" Chosen, and I don't want to pull the rug out from under people who want more of that. There's only so much development time in each month.

I'm in favor of "Boss" chosen being more static as well as I think it opens up more interesting possibilities. If their personalities and appearances are set, the other Chosen can talk about them in a consistent manner. Currently, the bosses just refer to each other, but each hard fact about them gives even standard Chosen/Forsaken the chance to have attitudes about them (based on their own personality traits). "Faith" can look down on Splendor's tactics while "Mayhem" wishes she could let herself go like that. "Calamity" can be downright contemptuous of Victory's waste of effort to protect everyone else while "Shield" is openly jealous of her superior combat abilities. In the same way that now they have attitudes about certain parts of their own body, they can have attitudes about the physical attributes of the Boss Chosen.

 

[deviantartaaa]

Unicorn Lard is a starting item that lets you skip a day for extra EE based on the number of items you own, and also guarantees that a new Chosen will show up in the next fight, effectively solving both issues at once

Yeah but then you are missing out on other starting items to get, during the first runs, what? 1 EE? You can get more by retreating with 5 capture time...

 

[deviantartaaa]

I mean even if you skip the day you can still do some damage. Especially if you have items for example. But yah you’re not wrong, but I feel thematically it makes sense. The heroes would kinda suck if you could corrupt them in a matter of a week.

Maybe some repeatable things that give bonus EE? Like how you can trigger distortions multiple times to get the bonus EE, have some early versions of that?
Make it so you have days where you make no vulnerability progress, but instead make big EE profit?

 

[McHuman]

Maybe some repeatable things that give bonus EE? Like how you can trigger distortions multiple times to get the bonus EE, have some early versions of that?
Make it so you have days where you make no vulnerability progress, but instead make big EE profit?

I mean, if there was something like that then the early loops would become absurdly long as all that extra EE would make it easy for even newer players to be ready for the final battle 15-20 days early if not more.

 

[deviantartaaa]

I mean, if there was something like that then the early loops would become absurdly long as all that extra EE would make it easy for even newer players to be ready for the final battle 15-20 days early if not more.

You can lower other EE sources a bit to balance it out maybe?

 

[McHuman]

You can lower other EE sources a bit to balance it out maybe?

That defeats the purpose of your proposal then, as you'd just be balancing things out to the same rate of growth, meaning those downtime days don't go by any faster. If anything the only thing it does is completely ruin the balance of the later loops which are so short that there aren't any downtime days. So not only would your change require rebalancing EE generation, it would also rebalancing the difficulty scaling of the campaign so that the later loops don't become impossible from a lack of EE generation.

No matter which direction you take this it'd require rebalancing the difficulty scaling of the campaign in some way all for the sake of making new players feel like they're making progress at points in the game where they are making progress just subtly. Anyone who feels like they're not making progress can check this thread, we have posted plenty of guides explaining what kind of progress you should be making making at each section of loop 1, and that the sections where you aren't breaking vulnerabilities is because you want to be focusing on reaching the trauma thresholds for higher EE generation and grabbing upgrades to reach the power spike to start breaking again.

 

[Nobody032]

Yeah but then you are missing out on other starting items to get, during the first runs, what? 1 EE? You can get more by retreating with 5 capture time...

I think we are talking early game here so no retreat energy and that's still only +1 energy. Getting an early chosen means you end up getting more energy than normal. Also you can speed up things quite a lot by just skipping days once you get enough trauma since you get a bonus +1 energy each day. Other than that the energy you get increases with the number of items you have. With 3 items owned you get +2 energy each day skipped.

Though I agree there are better items to get (Tomorrow's newspaper). Speaking of tomorrow's newspaper that can speed things up too actually since you don't need to buy commander upgrades. Just get the 2 energy non commander upgrades and save for commander . Also if you get 3 items you can buy all 2 energy commander upgrades for free. Picking Tomorrow's newspaper is kinda like a easy game mode honestly you don't even have to buy upgrades after getting Reality sealing.

Either way I don't think early game really needs that much change. Once you get to higher loop sometimes you have to attack each day to keep trauma high enough to get energy. Also you will have access to undead chosen eventually which should Speed up the early game. I have done like a day 3 temptation with my undead forsaken.

 

[Nobody032]

Does the lower energy cost punisher work on Rampage forsaken?

Also to the people who have actually used Devil forsaken, do you think they are balanced/good?

Like 5% bonus from temptation doesn't seem that appealing and it's just a matter of doing a little training and setting the obedience plan. Even then they would lost obedience every other day so it's even worse than I initially thought especially since <40% obedience means -10% motivation everyday. I feel like devil should mostly be combat focused since you know the whole -10% motivation for everyone thing. The angel trait is WAY better.

The Rampage trait seems underpowered too. 50% only? Angels get 200% bonus on their Aversion path and their Rampage trait just seems WAY better. If I ever get two angels in one run one is getting tempted and the other is getting Rampage.

Meglomaniac trait seem okay, though I usually never allow my forsaken to tantrum (Unless Splendor does her thing)so seems kinda pointless. Would be so much nicer if it increased motivation for everyone instead of decreasing it as a trait, on deployment. Now compare this to Angel trait which gives other forsaken way more damage than your tempted devils could ever give. And you can just spare the usurped angel for double the spare bonus.

The negotiation trait seems really good for devils, free deployment and more damage for bringing stamina to 0. Though 25% damage from commaders seems okay to as a trait of angels.

As for aversion trait for devils, it seems way too niche but I would give it a pass since it may be helpful for future species/bosses which I think are gonna have way lower punisher progress. The Angel one is way too good though, 200% to all damage.

Though I don't really trust myself with opinions on forsaken. I will run my tempted undead forsakens till they become completely unviable.

 

[Sonsuka]

Thanks for the feedback. This is definitely a tricky development question, because the original appeal of the game was in the customizable "generic" Chosen, and I don't want to pull the rug out from under people who want more of that. There's only so much development time in each month.

Sorry if unclear.
I was talking about generic chosen not customizing the boss chosen. Meant that once the boss updates are done I see more customizing the generic chosen being more valuable than scenes as it allows for more replayability and then doing more individual events

 

[unremark]

Any tips on best way to make this dark silver more useful? would just not training at all be best to keep their stats low?

 

[thejays]

What the hell is the cheat code for version 54! I am losing my mind trying to find it!

 

[thejays]

What the hell is the cheat code for version 54! I am losing my mind trying to find it!

I would like to sincerely apologize for my being a dumbass. The "cheat code" is going into options and pressing "c". I truly apologize for wasting your time