He probably thinks he's being sneaky about using CoC2 as a platform for what he -actually- wants to write. Connecting Kinu to the PC (but using the PC entirely as a prop) technically justifies her being in the game but from that launching point he flagrantly goes off into his OC Mary Sue novels that have little-to-nothing to do with CoC2.
Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.14] [Savin/Salamander Studios]
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Someone mentioned earlier on the page that he often writes out of spite. Sending his perfect little angel to go call out a character he hates in a scenario that a 13 year old AMV editor would call 'a bit much' is maximum Observer.
- Jun 3, 2019
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Let them have their hate boner
- Jun 6, 2019
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Speaking of this, one of his responses from that thread have been haunting me. When talking about Kinu he says "In one of the novellas, she actually tries to get her boyfriend to impregnate her so Kiyoko's plans to marry her off will be ruined."
...Does he actually have novellas of this or does he just collectively call his writing for Kinu/kitsune his novellas? Or is this side content extras, like how they have the smut section in TiTs? Not sure if he's ever mentioned this on the fen forums/discord if anyone knows. Because now it just sounds like he had this stuff sitting in a notebook and when he started writing for CoC2 just decided to tweak some stuff and stick it in the game. Would also explain the KinuQuests where like people have said, he can completely cut the PC out and focus on telling his Kinu novel.
- Oct 4, 2020
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Honestly, Stemwinder described whole Kiyoko ordeal on Fenexo forums better, at least to me, then anyone else did. Be they from here or there. I would recommend for everyone to read rest of his post in the thread since it presents pretty well articulated opinions on most of companions.
"Kiyoko:
+ Very involved content that links to and affects a large batch of other content - in fact she's probably got more by sheer volume than the next two runners-up put together. She combines a number of focal points for fans of these games (japanese-flavored stuff, breeding, marriage and child-rearing content) and pushes them far enough to satisfy most players who'd be drawn to her for those reasons. Unlike some of the other characters she has a mix of both likeable and unlikeable traits, too, so when stacked up against some of the flatter characters she stands out as someone her author put a lot of thought into bringing to life.
- There are both pluses and minuses to it so clearly being someone's pet character and story: the content itself is extremely self-contained and discordant with every part of the game that doesn't involve kitsune and -very- much on tracks, so those who might have liked to see how things play out differently (if their character didn't fall in love with Kiyoko, if their character were to approach it as more quid pro quo, if their character took offense to the way Kiyoko tries to freeze them out when it comes to parenting, if their character is female &c) might lose investment in it entirely if they don't perfectly agree with the direction it takes. There's so little player involvement past a certain point that many who were on board with it initially got fed up with it. Where Ryn's content found the line (between serving as an avenue to get you the player to feel more invested in the parts of the story that involve the character and getting so overwrought and self-indulgent in its 'look how complex and tragic and important my characters and all the content surrounding them are!' efforts that it feels desperate, as though it's trying to force you to feel things through sheer volume) in giving the character a 'big' and involved backstory Kiyoko's shamelessly sails past it without so much as acknowledging it and then keeps going and going and going...and going. It even stops asking you whether you still care or not; you'll be bombarded with it regardless. This navel-gazing aspect of her content is probably the most polarizing in the game."
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"Kiyoko:
+ Very involved content that links to and affects a large batch of other content - in fact she's probably got more by sheer volume than the next two runners-up put together. She combines a number of focal points for fans of these games (japanese-flavored stuff, breeding, marriage and child-rearing content) and pushes them far enough to satisfy most players who'd be drawn to her for those reasons. Unlike some of the other characters she has a mix of both likeable and unlikeable traits, too, so when stacked up against some of the flatter characters she stands out as someone her author put a lot of thought into bringing to life.
- There are both pluses and minuses to it so clearly being someone's pet character and story: the content itself is extremely self-contained and discordant with every part of the game that doesn't involve kitsune and -very- much on tracks, so those who might have liked to see how things play out differently (if their character didn't fall in love with Kiyoko, if their character were to approach it as more quid pro quo, if their character took offense to the way Kiyoko tries to freeze them out when it comes to parenting, if their character is female &c) might lose investment in it entirely if they don't perfectly agree with the direction it takes. There's so little player involvement past a certain point that many who were on board with it initially got fed up with it. Where Ryn's content found the line (between serving as an avenue to get you the player to feel more invested in the parts of the story that involve the character and getting so overwrought and self-indulgent in its 'look how complex and tragic and important my characters and all the content surrounding them are!' efforts that it feels desperate, as though it's trying to force you to feel things through sheer volume) in giving the character a 'big' and involved backstory Kiyoko's shamelessly sails past it without so much as acknowledging it and then keeps going and going and going...and going. It even stops asking you whether you still care or not; you'll be bombarded with it regardless. This navel-gazing aspect of her content is probably the most polarizing in the game."
It's all tongue-in-cheek. Humor purposes and all. We're all just having fun here, shitting on Tobs is this thread's favorite past-time, it's low hanging fruit.
You're taking this way too seriously, no need to go all armchair psychologist.
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Yeah, that's well written.
Honestly, it's all in naught because Tobs will never, ever, EVER give in to criticism or change anything regarding his creepy mary sue that he made so he can self insert as a third party and fuck her in-the game. And Savin seems to be completely fine with anything his writers do for better or worse, soooooo we'll just get more and more of this bs.
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- Oct 15, 2020
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Well, if nothing else, we can always make fun of Tobs' stuff for shits and giggles. He takes criticism like a 2-year-old, so there's plenty of enjoyment to be had at his expense.
There are a couple of answers to this.
The first is that he originally intended to do this kitsune stuff with Fall of Eden, but since the creator for that game burned out he ended up getting in touch with Savin and tweaking much of the content he was going to do for FoE. In fact in his spite posts he often mentions how much he hates the idea of player agency as a holdover from 'bad experiences' (i.e. ranging from people asking him why his content didn't allow the PC to do basic things like ask questions about a decision that was being made in front of them up to the usual much less reasonable 'let me kill this character I don't like them' stuff) with FoE. He was on a much shorter leash there, though, so material he was involved in, like the Lagon/burrows content, does in fact consult the PC and allow them to reason out a decision with the other characters before it comes down to the prescribed options - much to his chagrin. Apparently his director's cut vision for that quest had the rabbit queen whose name I forget just flat-out make all the decisions concerning what to do with Lagon without so much as allowing the PC to get a word in, but because that was a collaboration others ended up chipping in, editing him down, and inserting more options until it looked and felt like game content.
The other answer is that he's not been at all shy about sharing the fact that Kiyoko and Kinu are based on a porn doujin he likes - so yes, his pet content is literally fanfiction.
- Mar 28, 2018
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I honestly enjoyed Kiyoko content at first. She's the only character, that I felt was more fleshed out in terms of activities outside of sex. When she started having children, I enjoyed the interactions with Kinu. But as soon as they left the rock, Kinu turned Hostile and Kiyoko settled down in the village. The fact that Kiyoko lives apart from the MC, and the daughter is now hates any interaction with the MC, it completely turned me off.
So yes, given the chance, I ignore the Kitsune portion of the game.
So yes, given the chance, I ignore the Kitsune portion of the game.
Even more, if we would ever get an option to commit Kitsune genocide i would immediatly do it.
They want to act bitchy, arrogant and hate me? Good, i will give them a reason, that is if there are any survivors.
- Mar 28, 2018
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Rip and tear, until it is done
The idea is clearly that their society is in decline, they're close to going belly-up, but they're too proud to ask for help from filthy gaijin. The champion represents a chance for them to revitalize themselves but they're all but biting the hand that feeds them. And because he envisioned all this as a whole you're supposed to have gone through Kiyoko's content and that was meant to have endeared them enough to where you'll want to grind your teeth and help them even though they really don't deserve it.
Which is all well and good, that -is- an idea that could be interesting, but...Savin did that with the orcs, it's much more compact and less wanky, and he doesn't gate you into helping them with the only alternative being not interacting with his precious and DEEP characters at all. If you think the orcs are cunts you can let them destroy themselves. More importantly there are some likeable orcs and unlikeable orcs, so it's not as hacky as this idea of being railroaded into helping a bunch of snobs who spit on the ground you walk on and are turning your daughter against you.
The Observer goes into much more detail but he confuses detail for depth and Savin just straight-up knows how to write game content while The Observer doesn't.
HELL TO THE YES WITH THAT, Lord knows i like Hretha and Vaush way more than Arona and the only reason i don't let them bite the dust is because i like interacting with those two, but that's the thing, it's my choice as you put it!
Lord knows it would be so easy, i've lost count of how often i've beaten the entire den and Komari ontop of it (hell they're so obnoxious (yet i enjoy Kiyoko so can't skip them fully) that i tend to just put the Amulet on my storage vault AND THEN do their mission just so i get to kick EVERYONE'S ASSES, KOMARI INCLUDED so at least i have the satisfaction of knowing they truly ain't nothing when they talk down to me later)
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- Jun 6, 2019
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Yeah him posting whole pages of hentai manga to "help" explain his points was very...eye opening and sad? Like before this I at least thought he was a very prolific, somewhat creative writer - even if I generally dislike his stuff. But some of those pages were exact things his COC2 characters said or did so now it's like, how much are his own ideas and how much is it just him fleshing out his fanfics whose bulk of the work has already been done for him via the source material.
And fanfics aren't inherently bad, they can be great but the great ones usually take set characters and then the writer makes it their own, does something interesting with them that they weren't already doing in the source material but that still makes sense for their character. Or expands on the characters/story in a way not seen in the source. Or simply uses the source as a jumping off point to delve into the writers own story in a well-thought out and engaging way. The laziest fanfics just take characters from the source material and largely leave them the same, insert the writer (and possibly their friends) via an OC and then go on to make something self-indulgent for the writer to enjoy. I'm guilty of the latter...and it seems so is Tobs.
Murderhoboing is the main reason Tobs hates player choice, or at least the excuse he uses. For some reason he correlates choice with murder, but I admit I give him reason for that considering I do want to kill the foxes.
But frankly, it doesn't even have to be that, (although I would prefer fox genocide, yes), if he could just allow us to idk talk back when people shit on us that'd be more than enough. Or maybe if he could allow us to actually reprimand people considering the player can become keros's only champion ever, and they STILL shit on us.
Like at that point any "lmao its sociocultural ur just too smoothbrained to understand my deep lore implications of why they're shitheads" goes out the window, that's just the concept of player agency being hanged and then guillotined. You're not even allowed the basic decency of defending yourself.
The only choice that Tobs ever lets you have is the first one: Abstain from fox content, or engage in it by picking up the amulet. That's it. There's nothing in there.
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Let's not forget the OC who was created solely to spite any players of the original CoC who had any interest in incest content with Helspawn, a possible route created by Savin himself yet they were wrong to want scenes for it. Now even the people who didn't go that route had to have that as the canon for CoC.
What I like about that one is that they never apply that logic to Kiyoko. She's the one to arrange the marriage between Kinu and Nakano, and Kinu does everything that is expected of her and in accordance with her position as her mother wants and instructs. Yet her father being anyway involved is what would make her not her own person. I brought this up once when someone said that her father having any input into who she marries was "antiquated and creepy"...in a society based on ancient customs and where Kiyoko did exactly fucking that.
I dropped the Kiyoko jazz when I found out I had to have a baby with her to free her. I was all for helping but trying to force the champion into having a child in the middle of his quest with a person he hardly knows and maybe doesn't even like didn't sit too well with me so I told them all that in the kitsune den but then they act like you're the weird asshole for not wanting to impregnate the haughty ghost fox lady. This was before I even found out about all the Kinu/Kiyoko jazz, and you would think as champion and guy/girl who basically burned through the entire kitsune den you'd have at least the power if not just the balls to take your daughter away from her mother if you don't like how she tries to parent your child and set her up in Hawkethorn with Gwyn at the nursery, or Garth, or even Evelyn cause she can at least teach her to read while you're gone.
So I ditched the whole thing straight from the beginning. Honestly, I'd much rather we got a quest to get Mai to show some more emotion since it says that even during sex she has the same expression and she tells you she smokes winterstem otherwise she gets anxious. I'd rather fix that and get a sexy silver shrine maiden, than get the bitch preggers and have to deal with the not being a part of my own family thing.
So I ditched the whole thing straight from the beginning. Honestly, I'd much rather we got a quest to get Mai to show some more emotion since it says that even during sex she has the same expression and she tells you she smokes winterstem otherwise she gets anxious. I'd rather fix that and get a sexy silver shrine maiden, than get the bitch preggers and have to deal with the not being a part of my own family thing.
I kinda like Mai, she tends to pull out the giant ghost strap on though, which can be problematic -_-
Only foxes I like at this point are Rindo and the shopkeep, just wish half there sex scenes weren't devoted too "just how fluffy are kitsune tails/ears?"
Perhaps before they add another line of code to foxland they should instead a citizen to the elf city outside the palace?
Only foxes I like at this point are Rindo and the shopkeep, just wish half there sex scenes weren't devoted too "just how fluffy are kitsune tails/ears?"
Perhaps before they add another line of code to foxland they should instead a citizen to the elf city outside the palace?
Alright alright... I'm interested in the doujin now, you got the source? lolYeah him posting whole pages of hentai manga to "help" explain his points was very...eye opening and sad? Like before this I at least thought he was a very prolific, somewhat creative writer - even if I generally dislike his stuff. But some of those pages were exact things his COC2 characters said or did so now it's like, how much are his own ideas and how much is it just him fleshing out his fanfics whose bulk of the work has already been done for him via the source material.
And fanfics aren't inherently bad, they can be great but the great ones usually take set characters and then the writer makes it their own, does something interesting with them that they weren't already doing in the source material but that still makes sense for their character. Or expands on the characters/story in a way not seen in the source. Or simply uses the source as a jumping off point to delve into the writers own story in a well-thought out and engaging way. The laziest fanfics just take characters from the source material and largely leave them the same, insert the writer (and possibly their friends) via an OC and then go on to make something self-indulgent for the writer to enjoy. I'm guilty of the latter...and it seems so is Tobs.