VN Ren'Py Culture Shock [Ch. 3 v0.1] [King of lust]

[DA22]

Me too. Experience, opportunity, events, etc should change every character as a story progresses. In fact, you could argue that the story itself cannot progress unless the characters change. Events happen in a story, but they're merely plot devices, catalysts. It's how those events change and influence the characters that is the heart of the tale.

But I also get that there are other people who believe that every character should stay static unless the player explicitly makes them change by making a choice. They want total, absolute control. Put another way, they want to BE THE story, not merely a character IN A story.

Here we partly agree and disagree actually. Yes a character should have a basic personality and way he/she perceives live in a game, their own motivation for things that happen and yes that character should change and grow based upon what happens in game, but the way that character reacts to certain things while that happens is canon for how that person reacts to those things.

That is exactly what destroyed Sunny, since she is now shown she will be easily seduced by any player coming along and can be turned into his mindless sex toy if MC forgets to give her some attention or does not save her from that hellish fate. Now that makes her a bad LI. Now instead of her being a sex addict (I might put it strongly to put my point accross ), you would have found out she had or could easily get a gambling addiction unless you watch her 24/7 and was quite likely to rack up ten of thousands of gambling debts while living with her putting both of you into debt. Would you still think she was great wifey material or to big of a risk?

Well that is the thing, for those who see the character as the same on both paths, you know how she will react now unless you watch her like a hawk and interfere all the time and you better not ever have a job that makes you have to spend two weeks away from her.

Edit: What goes for Sunny goes in a way for every girl that already fell and were made into their toys by Marcus or Weiku in the NTR path, just Sunny grates even more since for a lot of players she was one of the two main prizes to go for in the game. The problem is there as well though for the other women in game before MC even could connect with them. Basically there are not that many romantic interests left for those who see them as same character on both paths, just fuck interests.

It is not for nothing that combining NTR paths and romantic paths in one game is one of the hardest things to pull off and keep all intended players happy, since the needs and wants of the one are kind of opposite of the other and it is very hard to write believable ways for a woman to fall into the NTR trap and have her enjoy that and still be believable as future wive material. (Except maybe for magic, mind control and rape that the female chars hate, which have their own problems with believable or subject matter). I am pretty sure I could not do it if I tried.

 

[Sguru007]

Which route I have to choose for NTR

 

[DA22]

Which route I have to choose for NTR

Beta, low confidence and do not stop Marcus or others.

 

[disimulated]

Here I disagree with you. If devs want to make a game that has both NTR and romantic path, you also have to take into account the rules and way those romantic players play or you deliver a subpar experience to them.

That's valid. It's important to consider your audience(s).

Why else do you think the romantic path has only a 2-3 star rating max while the beta path is rated 4-5 stars by the players who like that? It is not like devs are suddenly way worse renderers and such on the more romantic path or deliver way less content.

I haven't looked at the ratings, but that's another helpful observation. Suggests that something is off with the romantic path. In my mind this speaks to fundamental problems. I can think of two off the top of my head: where the dev's passion is, and player expectations.

I think King's true passion lies on the beta/NTR path. He built the game around Tracy and Sunny getting corrupted. But because a single path is really just a VN, King tried to build a multi-path game. That's cool, but I think his passion shines through in the NTR renders. That's why I always say that an artist should make what inspires them, not what others want. Making your passion rather than what others want is like the difference between art and engineering.

Luxee said the same thing in his interview about Parental Love (

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):

Here’s a quick tip to any aspiring devs out there. DO NOT put a route in your game just because you feel like it should be there. That’s exactly how I felt about the “Pure Husband” route. I had no interest in this kind of a story myself. This route about staying faithful to your wife, was obviously not why I decided to start making a game about boning your daughters…

Player expectations are another issue. Clearly Tracy and Sunny are the key girls in the story and each set of players wants them. I think some players of either path expect the good/bad, romance/NTR, pure/corrupt path pairs to essentially be mirror images of each other. For example, some players seem to expect that if on day 6 beta path Tracy sleeps with Lucas, then on day 6 alpha Philip will sleep with Tracy. They want the same progression timeline on both paths. I can understand that, but I think it's an unfortunate expectation. I think it limits the storytelling options and means that both stories suffer in quality as a result.

It is not for nothing that combining NTR paths and romantic paths in one game is one of the hardest things to pull off and keep all intended players happy, since the needs and wants of the one are kind of opposite of the other and it is very hard to write believable ways for a woman to fall into the NTR trap and have her enjoy that and still be believable as future wive material.

You're absolutely right, because they are so opposite. That's why I often say that it's really two different stories told in the same game engine. It's also why I strictly play one path at a time, because that helps me to separate the two in my mind and maintain the right perspective on the characters.

 

[DA22]

You're absolutely right, because they are so opposite. That's why I often say that it's really two different stories told in the same game engine. It's also why I strictly play one path at a time, because that helps me to separate the two in my mind and maintain the right perspective on the characters.

True and that luckily works for you, the problem though partly is that especially the more romantic players see that different and see it as two possible outcomes of the same character based upon MC's action only, so it is telling about those females.

One thing a dev could do, though it would not help for the more extreme dislikers or romantic players is making bigger changes between the chars on both paths like different hair color, different character mental makeup and/or actions by the female chars themselves on both paths where on alpha Tracy and Sunny for example would actively turn down Weiku and Marcus and have a motivation to encourage MC (same goes for rest of girls though). So devs would try to break the linking between the chars in one path and the other by players consciously. This will not work for all, but might for quite a few.

If as you say it would be motivation and fun of King though, then I agree, there will be no real good solution as hoping he would take the lesson learned that it is not his thing into his next game.

 

[magus448]

romantic players see that different and see it as two possible outcomes of the same character based upon MC's action only, so it is telling about those females.

Technically that is what's happening. So it's hard for some of us to see it any other way than them being the same characters.

With Alison Fall of the Apple, it's really a player choice, rather than a mc choice for each route that are actually separate universes. With everyone dressed and acting differently and the story going in vastly different directions. You even have characters that only appear in their respective routes.

 

[DA22]

Technically that is what's happening. So it's hard for some of us to see it any other way than them being the same characters.

With Alison Fall of the Apple, it's really a player choice, rather than a mc choice for each route that are actually separate universes. With everyone dressed and acting differently and the story going in vastly different directions. You even have characters that only appear in their respective routes.

Yeah that dev has basically done to the extreme what I said and made such big differences between the characters and how they act, look and even who they are between the different paths in his game that you really have to work as a player to still try to link them and it does not work for a player even if you try. It really is about three to four completely different games in one game instead of different paths.

Now for this game already on this path for a long while, it will be much harder to introduce those changes now in a believable way and that would also need for the devs to see the need for it firstly and secondly the will to do all the extra work involved for possibly pretty little pay-off by now.

 

[disimulated]

One thing a dev could do, though it would not help for the more extreme dislikers or romantic players is making bigger changes between the chars on both paths like different hair color, different character mental makeup and/or actions by the female chars themselves

That's a good suggestion, visual difference between the characters might help to distinguish them. Plus, I think fans of corruption paths might like visual changes (sexier hair, dressing more revealing, breast surgery, etc), so it could even make for a better experience on the corruption/NTR paths.

That comes with some production cost though, as now King would have to do twice as many renders of the scenes that have those characters in them. Not only that, but now you have to program the game in such a way that once the visual change happens, the player doesn't accidentally get content that has the original look. There's more chance for bugs.

I think it would slow down the release schedule. A dev would have to weigh upsetting the players who don't mind the two paths but want quick releases against the benefit to the subset of players who can't keep the characters separate on the different paths.

Would having someone create a "walkthrough" mod help with this? So that romance people would not click the wrong choices? Or do romance players also peek at the NTR path and images, and it is that behavior that is ruining the love interests for them?

 

[DA22]

That's a good suggestion, visual difference between the characters might help to distinguish them. Plus, I think fans of corruption paths might like visual changes (sexier hair, dressing more revealing, breast surgery, etc), so it could even make for a better experience on the corruption/NTR paths.

That comes with some production cost though, as now King would have to do twice as many renders of the scenes that have those characters in them. Not only that, but now you have to program the game in such a way that once the visual change happens, the player doesn't accidentally get content that has the original look. There's more chance for bugs.

I think it would slow down the release schedule. A dev would have to weigh upsetting the players who don't mind the two paths but want quick releases against the benefit to the subset of players who can't keep the characters separate on the different paths.

Would having someone create a "walkthrough" mod help with this? So that romance people would not click the wrong choices? Or do romance players also peek at the NTR path and images, and it is that behavior that is ruining the love interests for them?

Last has to do with gallery(mod), some do play both paths, some of it is the natural enthusiasm of beta path fans that share here and on patreon what happens on the path they love or for example in case of this game complaints they did not see first time Marcus-Sunny and only second time. It is why some people say the only really unavoidable NTR is not having it in game.

Otherwise you will find out about it, unless you hide away from any outside sources and information. That may sound extreme, but the truth is I have never been on a thread with both paths where I could not find loads of unspoilered posts about what happened on the NTR path, so unless would never look at thread knew exactly what happened without ever having to play it. Not that the players on other path are any better or worse about spoiling things, just that has less consequences concerning the view of the chars.

 

[harsha_26]

That's a good suggestion, visual difference between the characters might help to distinguish them. Plus, I think fans of corruption paths might like visual changes (sexier hair, dressing more revealing, breast surgery, etc), so it could even make for a better experience on the corruption/NTR paths.

There is one another problem. Some Non-NTR fans who are not into romance but into corruption. Those fans who want to see tracy & sunny with sexy make up, sexy clothes but only to themselves.

You think corruption & NTR are the same paths? I think you didn't played Tyrant game then. That game dev is the only one who cared for all type of paths and created Love, Corruption, NTR paths.

It's hard to see some guys to treat corruption & NTR are same. Yes, they have similarities. But they are not same.

I want to see Sunny & Tracy wearing sexy bikini in beach. So, Why can't I do that in Alpha Path? Just because they wear sexy wear, NTR will happen to them? That's baseless logic. I'm forced to select less sexy clothes because of fucking boring Alpha Path. Why these devs keep thinking that NON-NTR fans are only care about romance? We also love corruption. But, this game only have two complete opposite routes. One for Romantic lovers, One for NTR lovers. Those who love corruption without NTR, well, we have to think of ourselves as the Marcus & call it a day.

 

[harsha_26]

Females are just toys in this game. Especially Sunny. If we want those toys, they will become our toys, but we have to try hard to get those toys. Even after that, they will behave as "softcore boring toys"

IF we don't want those toys, they will become "hardcore sexy public toys". And for others, it is easy to get to those toys when compare to MC. Now, how is it worthy of "rewarding" at all?

 

[DA22]

There is one another problem. Some Non-NTR fans who are not into romance but into corruption. Those fans who want to see tracy & sunny with sexy make up, sexy clothes but only to themselves.

You think corruption & NTR are the same paths? I think you didn't played Tyrant game then. That game dev is the only one who cared for all type of paths and created Love, Corruption, NTR paths.

It's hard to see some guys to treat corruption & NTR are same. Yes, they have similarities. But they are not same.

I want to see Sunny & Tracy wearing sexy bikini in beach. So, Why can't I do that in Alpha Path? Just because they wear sexy wear, NTR will happen to them? That's baseless logic. I'm forced to select less sexy clothes because of fucking boring Alpha Path. Why these devs keep thinking that NON-NTR fans are only care about romance? We also love corruption. But, this game only have two complete opposite routes. One for Romantic lovers, One for NTR lovers. Those who love corruption without NTR, well, we have to think of ourselves as the Marcus & call it a day.

True, that is why I was trying to avoid terms like Non-NTR players and instead used terms like more romantic or immersive players or those who seem chars on two paths as same. It is not like Non-NTR players are one group that all think the same or all have same needs or amount of resistance to NPC's having action in game either, they are just as diverse as the ones that like to see NPC's have the action. So impossible to speak for them all.

 

[Irgendwie Irgendwo]

Small objection, please. There is some little things going on that you described over the last few posts.

I remember distinctly that Sunny is definitely not happy to see Marcus when he insinuates himself into the fitness center scene and totally gives him the cold shoulder when he is in her room while Weak You visits Mom.

You can definitely humiliate Marcus in front of Sophia during class, which surely in time lead to a break up between them.

As for revealing clothes, that has been done in the old character screen before it was changed. Pass a certain points threshold and the girls will undress. As for picking more revealing clothes, yes, that will give slut points instead of confidence points, but my theoiy is that you can still have them wear that stuff and reduce their slut points later on again.

 

[harsha_26]

Small objection, please. There is some little things going on that you described over the last few posts.

I remember distinctly that Sunny is definitely not happy to see Marcus when he insinuates himself into the fitness center scene and totally gives him the cold shoulder when he is in her room while Weak You visits Mom.

You can definitely humiliate Marcus in front of Sophia during class, which surely in time lead to a break up between them.

As for revealing clothes, that has been done in the old character screen before it was changed. Pass a certain points threshold and the girls will undress. As for picking more revealing clothes, yes, that will give slut points instead of confidence points, but my theoiy is that you can still have them wear that stuff and reduce their slut points later on again.

If I can make those toys wear revealing clothes, why isn't it included in Alpha Walkthrough? Because dev created those options for "NTR path". It is just a trick but not a "canon" way to play this game.

About humiliating marcus, yeah we did. But, what about MC's humiliation in beta's path? That's way more than what marcus was felt.

And Sunny giving cold shoulder to marcus, yes. But she given to marcus something which is not yet available to MC in alpha path. I don't fucking care about forcing. I like corruption. If marcus wanted to use force, why can't i use same methods? Because I'm a "good" MC?

That's what the problem of optional NTR games. They don't care about players who wants to be "corrupted heroes". But the male characters in NTR path can do those, and NTR fans will enjoy. Always romance romance romance or NTR NTR NTR. Fucking stereotypes.

 

[disimulated]

Not that the players on other path are any better or worse about spoiling things, just that has less consequences concerning the view of the chars.

And that might be the key point: Most NTR fans don't mind also seeing the characters in a romantic/harem relationships. Some romance/harem players just can't tolerate seeing the characters with anyone else.

It's an unfortunately extreme position that doesn't leave much room for flexibility. That makes it really hard for devs to provide multiple paths in a game.

I just wish that those people realized that they are the source of the conflict, not the developers. I'm not shaming the kink, just pointing out that if you have an extreme position from which you cannot budge, then it's pretty hard to come up with a win-win or a even a compromise solution.

It's like some drivers in a city saying that they only want to make right-hand turns and trying to force the city to change all streets to one-way to make that easier. Sure, it can be done, but then everyone is forced to drive in circles, even the majority of drivers who are perfectly happy making left turns.

 

[disimulated]

There is one another problem. Some Non-NTR fans who are not into romance but into corruption. Those fans who want to see tracy & sunny with sexy make up, sexy clothes but only to themselves.

Corruption is awesome, on any path. I didn't mean to reinforce that stereotype that corruption can only happen on cheating/sharing/NTR/non-monogamous paths.

The way I was thinking when I wrote it is that "corruption/NTR" reads as "corruption or NTR", but it may have been better written simply as "corruption".

 

[harsha_26]

And that might be the key point: Most NTR fans don't mind also seeing the characters in a romantic/harem relationships. Some romance/harem players just can't tolerate seeing the characters with anyone else.

It's an unfortunately extreme position that doesn't leave much room for flexibility. That makes it really hard for devs to provide multiple paths in a game.

I just wish that those people realized that they are the source of the conflict, not the developers. I'm not shaming the kink, just pointing out that if you have an extreme position from which you cannot budge, then it's pretty hard to come up with a win-win or a even a compromise solution.

It's like some drivers in a city saying that they only want to make right-hand turns and trying to force the city to change all streets to one-way to make that easier. Sure, it can be done, but then everyone is forced to drive in circles, even the majority of drivers who are perfectly happy making left turns.

I agree with you extremist criticism is wrong from both route fans. But, you know the reason why NTR fans don't complaint about romance games? Because they don't care & don't compare. Because porn games for them are just "porn". They don't immerse themsleves into the beta path. I know there are some really " Cuckold" fetish people who will immerse themselves in ntr games, but they are very very very rare. If u put a poll, about 90% of the ntr fans will say "no immersion, just porn".

But when you ask same question to non-ntr fans, about 90% fans will say "we are totally immersive, we will watch porn sites if we want to enjoy some porn, why come to adult games & timewaste if they are not different & immersive?"

So, when someone is really immersive, they develop a emotional attachment to the characters. That leads to behave as extremists. Like they feel "don't touch sunny, she is mine". But, ntr fan will say " Who sunny? Yeah, that girl, she is sexy, want to see tens bbc gangbang on her".

Understand the difference? I think, non-ntr fans should never see what happens in game thread. Because it's hurts to see ntr fans commenting "sunny should two dicks, who might be? I know it's not MC". See those above comments by ntr fans. I'm not bluffing. This is real. I know ntr fans will say " Hey man, they are just pixies ". But, for non-ntr fans, THEY ARE NOT. I'm not saying that non ntr fans are right. But, this behavior of non ntr fans have so much depth into it.

 

[DA22]

And that might be the key point: Most NTR fans don't mind also seeing the characters in a romantic/harem relationships. Some romance/harem players just can't tolerate seeing the characters with anyone else.

It's an unfortunately extreme position that doesn't leave much room for flexibility. That makes it really hard for devs to provide multiple paths in a game.

I just wish that those people realized that they are the source of the conflict, not the developers. I'm not shaming the kink, just pointing out that if you have an extreme position from which you cannot budge, then it's pretty hard to come up with a win-win or a even a compromise solution.

It's like some drivers in a city saying that they only want to make right-hand turns and trying to force the city to change all streets to one-way to make that easier. Sure, it can be done, but then everyone is forced to drive in circles, even the majority of drivers who are perfectly happy making left turns.

They are not all as extremist and even among them some do not mind or even enjoy lesbian or can handle some NPC sex if not too abusive especially with family members (having those raped or blackmailed in a game is a major turnoff for me) or too major a percentage of NPC sex in game. Also the non-NTR crowd is more diverse as you think, for me personally it also depends on type of game. As the game has more very strong story elements and is less a get with or just fuck your waifu I can handle more of story needed thirds having sex. (This game to me is a strong get your waifu game though). I know it is weird but true. . Overall am an immersive player though.

 

[disimulated]

Understand the difference? I think, non-ntr fans should never see what happens in game thread. Because it's hurts to see ntr fans commenting "sunny should two dicks, who might be? I know it's not MC". See those above comments by ntr fans. I'm not bluffing. This is real. I know ntr fans will say " Hey man, they are just pixies ". But, for non-ntr fans, THEY ARE NOT. I'm not saying that non ntr fans are right. But, this behavior of non ntr fans have so much depth into it.

I'm totally with you. Non-NTR fans don't like seeing their girls with others - and maybe the NTR fans don't appreciate how much it bothers people who are sensitive to that when they talk about it.

But I don't believe that only non-NTR fans immerse themselves in the characters. NTR fans immerse too. I care about Sunny on both paths and if Marcus treats her badly on beta path I'm going to want to burn his house down with him and his damn car in it.

 

[harsha_26]

I'm totally with you. Non-NTR fans don't like seeing their girls with others - and maybe the NTR fans don't appreciate how much it bothers people who are sensitive to that when they talk about it.

But I don't believe that only non-NTR fans immerse themselves in the characters. NTR fans immerse too. I care about Sunny on both paths and if Marcus treats her badly on beta path I'm going to want to burn his house down with him and his damn car in it.

I didn't said ntr fans are not immersive. I just said most of them are not. Because whenever i had a debate with ntr fans, they just countered me by saying "oh god, will you shut up? Please move on. They are just pixies. They are not your girlfriends".