VN Ren'Py Completed Dating My Daughter [Ch. 1-4 v1.01] [MrDots Games]

[armion82]

I'm sorry, Baka, I don't think my point was clear. Chapter 3 absolutely will ask me what decisions I've made thus far, you are correct, and I'll record them. Then, at some point, it will give me an option to once again choose a MMF route or not; I'd be surprised if the option is simply never offered based on previous choices, because thus far Mr.Dots has been pretty good at not assuming people might not have changed their minds. My point was that this hypothetical third option isn't necessarily going to be obvious in it's consequence, not without the walkthrough. My evidence for that opinion is that the previous options weren't obvious either, so I have no reason to assume the next one will be.


I disagree; as I said, I think the option will once again be offered, because people might have changed their minds, and based on some of the choices thus far, I don't think it's necessarily going to be obvious. It might be; it might come up immediately after Martin makes a move to kiss D, for example, or (based on the choices we've seen so far) it could honestly just be when he says she looks beautiful when they're all having dinner together.
Let me ask it simply; do you think accepting Martin's compliment of D in Chapter 1 was obviously going to lead to D and Martin having sex? If you didn't have the walkthrough, would you say a MMF route was an obvious consequence of accepting that compliment?

Accepting the compliment only open that route.It's not leading you directly to sex with Martin.There is a huge difference between them.

 

[fried]

I'm sorry, Baka, I don't think my point was clear. Chapter 3 absolutely will ask me what decisions I've made thus far, you are correct, and I'll record them. Then, at some point, it will give me an option to once again choose a MMF route or not; I'd be surprised if the option is simply never offered based on previous choices, because thus far Mr.Dots has been pretty good at not assuming people might not have changed their minds. My point was that this hypothetical third option isn't necessarily going to be obvious in it's consequence, not without the walkthrough. My evidence for that opinion is that the previous options weren't obvious either, so I have no reason to assume the next one will be.


I disagree; as I said, I think the option will once again be offered, because people might have changed their minds, and based on some of the choices thus far, I don't think it's necessarily going to be obvious. It might be; it might come up immediately after Martin makes a move to kiss D, for example, or (based on the choices we've seen so far) it could honestly just be when he says she looks beautiful when they're all having dinner together.
Let me ask it simply; do you think accepting Martin's compliment of D in Chapter 1 was obviously going to lead to D and Martin having sex? If you didn't have the walkthrough, would you say a MMF route was an obvious consequence of accepting that compliment?

I'm not going to answer for baka, but would like to note that once a player becomes accustomed to the notion that a MrDots game tends to give you choices for reasons which have either short or long-term implications, if a choice doesn't lend to soonish consequences then you should probably anticipate it will ripple downstream in some manner. That doesn't mean you are enabling a straight line of events which cannot be avoided many installments downstream, but that the themes related to your choices can be enablers or disablers for future, more immediate actions to choose when the time is right: in this case, being friendly with Martin was offered as an enabler of a future action to choose and nothing more. As you seemed to note, MrDots doesn't assume you should be locked into a single-minded path for all many cases that are related to longer-term options.

Then again, it's a game so I tend to make save points at choices where the influence of my decision is not immediately clear - fortunately, MrDots games tend to offer many pages for saves, which is quite helpful in that regard.

 

[Jeff Steel]

I'm sorry, Baka, I don't think my point was clear. Chapter 3 absolutely will ask me what decisions I've made thus far, you are correct, and I'll record them. Then, at some point, it will give me an option to once again choose a MMF route or not; I'd be surprised if the option is simply never offered based on previous choices, because thus far Mr.Dots has been pretty good at not assuming people might not have changed their minds. My point was that this hypothetical third option isn't necessarily going to be obvious in it's consequence, not without the walkthrough. My evidence for that opinion is that the previous options weren't obvious either, so I have no reason to assume the next one will be.


I disagree; as I said, I think the option will once again be offered, because people might have changed their minds, and based on some of the choices thus far, I don't think it's necessarily going to be obvious. It might be; it might come up immediately after Martin makes a move to kiss D, for example, or (based on the choices we've seen so far) it could honestly just be when he says she looks beautiful when they're all having dinner together.
Let me ask it simply; do you think accepting Martin's compliment of D in Chapter 1 was obviously going to lead to D and Martin having sex? If you didn't have the walkthrough, would you say a MMF route was an obvious consequence of accepting that compliment?

Lol, when Baka said this:

“So Im quite confident, no matter what you do, D will not get touched by any male in Ch1/2.”

...he was correct, since Ch1-2 are now over and no male besides you kissed or had sex with D.

 

[Sieg Linde]

I know, right? It’s like going to Baskin-Robbins Ice Cream for years, and told there would eventually be 31 flavors, so in the meantime all you get are Strawberry and Vanilla... and one day they tell you the other 29 flavors will start coming in on June 29th.

I'll probably end up going to play Dauntless...where I tried to make my character look like D.

I can't get my mind off it no matter what I do.

 

[Corvus Belli]

It's not leading you directly to sex with Martin.

I know, but it is step one in a process that does ultimately leads there. Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't be there, just that "MMF route" being opened as a result of accepting a compliment isn't an obvious consequence. I accept compliments all the time (because I'm so pretty), doesn't mean I expect them to lead to sex, because that's not an obvious outcome.
That's been my only point here; someone said all the choices were obvious, even without the walkthrough to lay it all out for you, and I disagreed with them. Thus far, some choices have been obvious, but some have not. Agree or disagree?

then you should probably anticipate it will ripple downstream in some manner.

I agree, but I'd argue that "your daughter is beautiful" being a choice that ripples downstream to "how about you and I and her all get naked together" isn't the most immediately obvious place for the river to end up. There are a lot of potential outcomes I'd deem more likely to occur than the outcome I know (from the walkthrough) it'll eventually lead towards.

That doesn't mean you are enabling a straight line of events which cannot be avoided many installments downstream

Again, I know that, and I don't think it's a negative. I'm only disagreeing with an assertion that "if you play without the walkthrough it will still be quite obvious what to choose to avoid other males". Playing without a walkthrough, I would not have expected accepting a compliment to be anywhere in a process that would lead to a MMF route, that's all. Would you, without the walkthrough, have concluded that was a quite obvious step in a F/D/Martin sexual encounter?

choices where the influence of my decision is not immediately clear

That's been my entire point; the choices are not immediately clear. I'm not even saying they should be; I'm just saying they're not. Someone (Baka) asserted they were, even without the walkthrough, and I disagreed with them. Nothing more.

 

[baka]

the obvious is that, you can stop at any point if you are getting too close.
the vague choices doesnt matter for the big picture, sure it will open a possibility, but you need to keep doing that. closer you get, more obvious the choices get.
that is why if you only want F+D you can safely play without the walkthrough because you need to force your way to get to any fetishes. to get girl A or B, or get fetish A or B etc. love route is quite easy and very hard to miss.
also, the way the game is created you need to accept many times to keep on a route but usually you can close the route in one decision. i think its all obvious, but if you want to be OCD about it, sure, we need a walkthrough. doing so you are not really playing.

 

[Corvus Belli]

but if you want to be OCD about it, sure, we need a walkthrough.

Once again, not what I said. Go read what I wrote again, and you'll note I literally said that not all the choices need to be obvious. To be clear, for the people in the cheap seats, I am not opposed to subtle choices leading in unexpected directions (that's what multiple save files are for), nor have I ever expressed the opinion that you NEED to use the walkthrough while playing. Not even close.
The only thing I said was that you were incorrect to assert that "if you play without the walkthrough it will still be quite obvious what to choose to avoid other males". You yourself even acknowledged that there are vague choices, you just think they don't matter in the long run. If there are vague choices, then the choices aren't all obvious, by definition.

because you need to force your way to get to any fetishes

But some decisions might lead to content you'd prefer to avoid in the run up to those fetishes. Continuing with the Martin example, it's entirely possible that the final choice will be as blatant as him trying to kiss her (or something similar), and that you can avoid being in that position at all, depending on how you responded to his compliment in Chapter 1. It's not certain that's how it'd go, but it is possible. And again, I don't think "your daughter is beautiful" would obviously lead to that scenario. That's all I'm saying; the choices are not all obvious, even if the final ones will be. We don't yet know what they're going to be, and some of the choices thus far have been subtle; ergo, it's possible future ones will be too.
I honestly don't know why this is proving so hard to grasp.

 

[armion82]

Once again, not what I said. Go read what I wrote again, and you'll note I literally said that not all the choices need to be obvious. To be clear, for the people in the cheap seats, I am not opposed to subtle choices leading in unexpected directions (that's what multiple save files are for), nor have I ever expressed the opinion that you NEED to use the walkthrough while playing. Not even close.
The only thing I said was that you were incorrect to assert that "if you play without the walkthrough it will still be quite obvious what to choose to avoid other males". You yourself even acknowledged that there are vague choices, you just think they don't matter in the long run. If there are vague choices, then the choices aren't all obvious, by definition.


But some decisions might lead to content you'd prefer to avoid in the run up to those fetishes. Continuing with the Martin example, it's entirely possible that the final choice will be as blatant as him trying to kiss her (or something similar), and that you can avoid being in that position at all, depending on how you responded to his compliment in Chapter 1. It's not certain that's how it'd go, but it is possible. And again, I don't think "your daughter is beautiful" would obviously lead to that scenario. That's all I'm saying; the choices are not all obvious, even if the final ones will be. We don't yet know what they're going to be, and some of the choices thus far have been subtle; ergo, it's possible future ones will be too.
I honestly don't know why this is proving so hard to grasp.

Well if it is so hard for you I bet they will make same system like with all girls-you can turn on or turn off any relationship.

 

[Jeff Steel]

Once again, not what I said. Go read what I wrote again, and you'll note I literally said that not all the choices need to be obvious. To be clear, for the people in the cheap seats, I am not opposed to subtle choices leading in unexpected directions (that's what multiple save files are for), nor have I ever expressed the opinion that you NEED to use the walkthrough while playing. Not even close.
The only thing I said was that you were incorrect to assert that "if you play without the walkthrough it will still be quite obvious what to choose to avoid other males". You yourself even acknowledged that there are vague choices, you just think they don't matter in the long run. If there are vague choices, then the choices aren't all obvious, by definition.


But some decisions might lead to content you'd prefer to avoid in the run up to those fetishes. Continuing with the Martin example, it's entirely possible that the final choice will be as blatant as him trying to kiss her (or something similar), and that you can avoid being in that position at all, depending on how you responded to his compliment in Chapter 1. It's not certain that's how it'd go, but it is possible. And again, I don't think "your daughter is beautiful" would obviously lead to that scenario. That's all I'm saying; the choices are not all obvious, even if the final ones will be. We don't yet know what they're going to be, and some of the choices thus far have been subtle; ergo, it's possible future ones will be too.
I honestly don't know why this is proving so hard to grasp.

I spoke with MDots about having choices highlighting a Sharing or Per Play warning - either written on the choice button (ala My Girlfriends Amnesia), or a flash message in the or right corner (ala Acting Lessons).

That way no walkthru is needed to avoid the “controversial path”

 

[fried]

That's been my entire point; the choices are not immediately clear. I'm not even saying they should be; I'm just saying they're not. Someone (Baka) asserted they were, even without the walkthrough, and I disagreed with them. Nothing more.

So, I see little to quibble about, then

Context in this game shows us that Martin has been one of the historically close friends of the MC - perhaps by work association only, we don't know - and Martin's small showing of attraction for D could, at some point in the future, after everything between the MC and D have changed - enable him to be in the right place, at the right time to share the confidence and trust of MC for a potential propositioning of D for a threesome. If Martin didn't find her attractive, that option wouldn't have made much sense to later offer.

Now, it's certainly fair to critique the style of this "sleeper" choice for influencing later options involving Martin, I feel.

From my perspective, considering that the MC interacted with Martin as if they were fully in each other's confidence throughout Chapter 1, plus the MC knew that Martin was obviously no stranger to horndog hookups when the situation presented itself ... when I saw that we had a choice for accepting Martin's effusive compliments about D's attractiveness or not, that rang a few bells. I mean, what else could that indicate? Either encourage or discourage such displays, it seemed. I decided that accepting might be best to offer a wider range of possibilities in the future and this game was also tagged for future sharing/swapping so ... why not? MrDots often provides some sort of escape route before taking an undesirable action, so it didn't seem to be a choice which would lead to a narrow, limited path.

Again, let's recall that MrDots' game choices don't tend to be throwaways - many of them have at least one option which people might prefer above others. For those choices which are less clear in terms of consequences, well, I tend to suggest players experiment and keep save points to double back until their desired path(s) are found. This particular choice was save #57 in my Chapter 1 batch of saves, for example (I just looked).

 

[Corvus Belli]

Well if it is so hard for you

I'm not sure you're actually reading what I'm writing. Where did I say it was hard for me? Where did I say I was opposed to the fact some choices are subtle? All I said was that not all the choices are obvious, and I said it in direct response to someone who said that they were. The end.

I spoke with MDots about having choices highlighting a Sharing or Per Play warning

I can see the logic to such an idea, but I honestly don't think it's necessary; if avoiding the "controversial path", as you call it, is important to someone, they'll either use the walkthrough or use save files to undo choices that have consequences they dislike. And having such a warning would necessitate doing so for every choice that anyone might deem "controversial", and that'd be pretty much every choice that branches paths. To use Melody as an example, there's a choice in there that fundamentally changes the relationship dynamic between the MC, Melody, Sophie and Xianne; highlighting which option which will result in which outcome in the manner you're desrcibing would be very difficult. I think it's better (and definitely easier) to let people make their choices, and if they don't like the outcome, they can load a save and try again.

 

[slackster]

When you think about it the "True" F&D path is pretty much finished. Just mop up work required to close out the ending.

Over the years I have noticed that the people vehemently against any sharing etc in general are younger in age and haven't been in a long term relationship over many years (over 7 or so).

Im guessing the MMF path with Martin starts when he comes to pick up his truck.

PS - Remember don't feed the trolls

 

[Corvus Belli]

So, I see little to quibble about, then

Honestly, it's definitely a quibble. It was intended to be a minor correction of an erroneous point to benefit someone who asked a fair question, but people keep thinking I'm saying something other than what I actually wrote, and it's getting weird. Ironically enough given the ensuing discussion, I thought my intent was blatantly obvious, but here we are...

Context in this game shows us that Martin has been one of the historically close friends of the MC

Indeed it has, which is why I don't think "your daughter is beautiful", coming from a close friend, is obviously step one on a path leading to a MMF route. I'm sure everyone here has at some point complimented a friend's girlfriend/spouse/sibling /whatever, but it doesn't therefore obviously follow that we're going to end up all sweaty and naked together.
I'd argue that complimenting someones appearance, especially a close friends daughter, isn't synonymous with being attracted to them, nor is it indicative of a desire for a sexual encounter.

I mean, what else could that indicate?

It could have easily indicated, using a close friend so as to present the idea in a non-threatening manner, that you were going to have to be aware of how other male characters will respond to D around F, not specifically Martin; or it could have just been an obvious observation from a close friend, in much the same way Georgina's compliment towards D wasn't the beginning of a potential MFF route (that's come simply by keeping both relationships running). Koko also complimented her; it doesn't logically follow that you're making a decision whether to begin on a F/D/Koko path, does it?

MrDots often provides some sort of escape route before taking an undesirable action, so it didn't seem to be a choice which would lead to a narrow, limited path.

True on both counts, but again, I've never said otherwise. All I've ever said is that the choices weren't necessarily obvious, and I only said that in direct response to someone who claimed they were; someone said they were new to the game and asked if they could avoid fetishes they didn't want to see, and were told "yes, all the choices are obvious, even without a walkthrough". I thought that was bad advice to give to someone (because of the last few pages worth of argument over the topic, and the fact that some people have even found "this will open a MMF route" to be too subtle a warning) and so I pointed out that the choices haven't all been obvious. My intent was to prevent them feeling misled, by being more precise.
You yourself have said that some of the choices are less clear in terms of consequence, so let me ask you; do you think telling that person (Trickstar, I think) that all the choices were obvious was an accurate thing to say?

Now, it's certainly fair to critique the style of this "sleeper" choice

Again, I'm not critiquing it; I was just saying that not all the choices that have thus far led to particular routes were as obvious as someone seemed to think they were, and that they may well remain subtle in future. That was literally all; I truly don't know why people keep interpreting that as a complaint on my part. I was just trying to give the guy better advice.

 

[baka]

theres no right or wrong here.
u can tell a person to follow a walkthough, to do a "perfect" playthrough, or let him play and let him choose on his own.
choices are not set in stone. even if you do different here and there, you can still get to the route you seek.
thats the "obviousness", its hard to go so wrong that you will find yourself in the wrong route.
i don't understand your obsession. its like you need to "win", theres nothing to win and the discussion was about something else, this is just a minor thing.

the question is if he can play "safe", and the answer is "yes", you can play safe, you will not be forced into something you don't like. there will be enough choices before getting in a route you dont want. and for me, the "whole game" so far have been clear, I know what to do to get where I want, and the "word" obvious is that the player will know what to do. and no, that "vague" option will not change anything. remember, ch1/ch2 theres no MMF. and for ch3 we need to start over.
so no matter how much we discuss theres no answer, because we can not test it. right now, all choices you make do "very little/nothing".

 

[fried]

Again, I'm not critiquing it; I was just saying that not all the choices that have thus far led to particular routes were as obvious as someone seemed to think they were, and that they may well remain subtle in future. That was literally all; I truly don't know why people keep interpreting that as a complaint on my part. I was just trying to give the guy better advice.

Since I've done this as well (even above!), my advice is to consider offering less explanation to cover your context and just note that not all people will understand the final significance of the few sleeper choices offered thus far in this game with maybe a quoted example.

And hey, I'll do something like that below!

BTW, I understand what you've intended here, but have been riffing on your particular responses to me for both our mini-conversation and the larger grouping of people here to chime in on, if they happen to find anything worth challenging or such. We're agreeing far too much on things, essentially

Although I generally agree that a compliment of someone's looks doesn't typically mean, "I wouldn't mind sleeping with you some day," the context I referenced seemed rather leading to me at the time:

Guy, you never told me you had such a beautiful daughter.
...

Hey, sounds like a typical comment we hear between friends.

...
Well I've seen her now, and my opinion still stands, she is deadset gorgeous.

Uh, OK Martin ... keep it in your pants, man!

Yeah, that choice wasn't going to be entirely innocent ... whatever it might signify.

 

[Corvus Belli]

i don't understand your obsession.

It's not an obsession; people keep bringing up things I never said, and I keep trying to correct them, because they're demonstrably incorrect. If you're content to let people misrepresent your arguments, that's fine, but I'm not. I dislike when they do that; it irks me.

its like you need to "win",

I need to "win" in the fact that a lot of what people have been responding to isn't what I said; if you say A, then people respond telling you why B is wrong, or asking why you think C, it's not "a need to win" to correct them.

Again, we disagree, that much is clear.
The last couple of days have seen people who didn't find "This choice will open a MMF route later in the game" to be an obvious enough warning that MMF routes were going to feature. Given that, I didn't think it was a great idea to tell someone "all the choices are obvious" when they asked if they could avoid fetishes they wereb't in to. I think my reasoning is clear, and you disagree with me; that's all fine.
But it isn't a character flaw to insist that people actually engage with the argument you're making, and not the one they only think you're making. It isn't an obsession, and it isn't a need to win, and I truly don't know why you can't see the difference.

We're agreeing far too much on things, essentially

In that case, I think it's important to be upfront, and tell you that I hate you, and I hope you don't survive the winter, and that no-one attends your funeral.
All joking aside, I can appreciate the sentiment; Devil's Advocate's fun, and in a particular manner of speaking it was literally my job for a while.

Yeah, that choice wasn't going to be entirely innocent

Is that what he said? I honestly don't remember; what I do remember is reading "This will open a MMF route with Martin later in the game" and thinking to myself "what the fuck?" I remember the MMF route being the outcome came as a surprised, but I have to acknowledge that I don't actually remember why.

 

[Broarmy2107]

wtf? most games are vanilla, MC+harem, Milf, Incest.
and if someone dares to add something else you need to shut it down immediately.
I can count in one hand the games that are within my taste right now.
I skip game after game after game since the Devs are making it exactly for people like Rythan25. only his taste and nothing else.
Even optional is a no go. my way or the highway attitude.

sure, like Corvus Belli says, we need to defend what we want.
but ultimately that means we need to fight all the time. we can't be civil, open minded, friendly to each other, agree to disagree, compromise, share, accept each other differences. no, we need to fight to get what we want and shut down everything else.

you want something that I dont like? no way, go burn and I will do everything in my power so you can't have it.
I only want what I want, do you understand? you don't have a saying, you don't matter, take your taste and die.

I don't want Milf, remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
I don't want Cheating, remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
I don't want Harem, remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
I don't want Vanilla, remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
I don't want Love Story, remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
I don't want Young Dudes, remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
I don't want "What you Like", remove it or I will do everything in my power to make it difficult for the DEV.
......

I think the point isnt just 'something' people dont like. Its NTR specifically that a lot of people (including me) dont really like. Most discussions here are about ntr. For it awakens the feeling it jealousy in people. Its not like games make a lot of diffrent tags optional it is mostly that ntr gets implemented as an optional route. To me i dont like sharing, so ntr isnt really for me because the mc on that route still has to cope with the female. To me either the something with the MC or nothing at all, thats again for Me the most enjoyable.

 

[thanatos69]

I think the point isnt just 'something' people dont like. Its NTR specifically that a lot of people (including me) dont really like. Most discussions here are about ntr. For it awakens the feeling it jealousy in people. Its not like games make a lot of diffrent tags optional it is mostly that ntr gets implemented as an optional route. To me i dont like sharing, so ntr isnt really for me because the mc on that route still has to cope with the female. To me either the something with the MC or nothing at all, thats again for Me the most enjoyable.

The game doesn't have and won't have NTR.

Sharing and MMF is not NTR.

 

[Jeff Steel]

a Few notes from me on the attached chart:

1. Any player of these games are going to post much higher on the percentage for men than what is on the chart. Imo.

2. Swinging is a couple thing, not a single male having sexual with a couple. Thus it implies your “other” is having sex with a male. Note that I would be surprised if this VN audience didn’t rate 60% or higher on average.

3. I note there is nothing on the chart to cover “giving away your gf” - being cucked - or NTR.

4. I do note bestiality (which falls for me low - but then again, I get a 2% rating on foot play as well)

————————————————

Point being, stop bashing swinging as an outlier. And stop calling it ntr.

 

[Jeff Steel]

My chart got cut off, but bestiality is at 2% ... and to clarity, it was specifically would you as a man fantasize having sex with an animal - imagine the percentage is higher if it asked would you watch a female have sex with an animal...though probly still low percentage.