VN Others Completed Double Homework [Ep. 19] [Palmer/Love-Joint]

[GingerSweetGirl]

When Zeta and MC try and use a recording device to catch Dennis doing something in her office they can use to blackmail him with, he turns it around on her by letting her know that he knows everything and has evidence of it. He walks behind her and grabs her breast then if I am remembering correctly the MC leaves at that point or it cuts away, next time the MC sees Dennis after leaving her office he is unusually happy about something implying that he blackmailed her for some kind of sexual favour.

Interesting, but I didn't see it that way. If Dennis had actually had sex with Mosley I'm pretty sure he would have gloated at some point in the game. Either that or she would have acknowledged it in some way; something like "You'll pay for what you did" for example. I really think that from the time he grabs Mosley's boob, to the time it cuts back to the MC outside the door, only like a minute has elapsed. I think he got her to agree to something and that was all he needed.

There are a lot of things left unsaid or implied in this game, but I'm not sure it always landed with the audience.

 

[IAmTheGrim]

Wow, was not expecting to be just about bawling from this. Yikes forever...

I've been away awhile. Pardon me while I, load my assets...

 

[Actually Autistic Gaming]

Interesting, but I didn't see it that way. If Dennis had actually had sex with Mosley I'm pretty sure he would have gloated at some point in the game. Either that or she would have acknowledged it in some way; something like "You'll pay for what you did" for example. I really think that from the time he grabs Mosley's boob, to the time it cuts back to the MC outside the door, only like a minute has elapsed. I think he got her to agree to something and that was all he needed.

There are a lot of things left unsaid or implied in this game, but I'm not sure it always landed with the audience.

It is Dennis we are talking about here... He is almost guaranteed to be a virgin and I am sure that if he managed to blackmail her for a quick BJ he would have busted a nut the second his dick was in her mouth so I think even if it was just a minute or 2 that timeline would still be able to fit.

But as I said, it was implied, but that is no guarantee that anything actually happened. Would make sense though why she shot him in the head at the end though, to take back the power from him that he stole from her by forcing her to do that. At least that is my take on it anyway.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

It is Dennis we are talking about here... He is almost guaranteed to be a virgin and I am sure that if he managed to blackmail her for a quick BJ he would have busted a nut the second his dick was in her mouth so I think even if it was just a minute or 2 that timeline would still be able to fit.

But as I said, it was implied, but that is no guarantee that anything actually happened. Would make sense though why she shot him in the head at the end though, to take back the power from him that he stole from her by forcing her to do that. At least that is my take on it anyway.

It's a really interesting thought, and while I don't think it's likely I can't say that you're wrong.

And that's a problem. Regardless if one of us is right or wrong, the game never really gives us the evidence one way or another. Sometimes this is ok, it's not always appropriate to spoon feed your audience on every plot point. Sometimes, being subtle and allowing your audience to contemplate the narrative can improve engagement and make the story more compelling. But it should be balanced. Too often in DH it feels like the narrative leaves too much unsaid. If you're right, then Dennis essentially rapes Mosley, and that totally changes their characters and motivation. That's a vital piece of info that the player should have. It's equally important for the player to know if Dennis just simply blackmails Mosley and threatens to reveal her secret- because that too changes their characters and motivations.

A lot of this stems from the original problem that I referenced earlier from their discord. Because the player is largely limited to the MC's view of the world, and because the MC is actually a minor player in the larger drama between Dennis and Mosley, it leaves the player with a lot of blind spots. There's no omniscient narrator who can fill the player in on details the MC doesn't directly see, and because the MC never sees too far behind the curtain he never really knows what's going on. When the game ends, we're left with a bunch of unanswered questions; and instead of that feeling compelling it ends up making the game feel hollow.

 

[Ricky | Love-Joint]

gingersweetgirl Actually Autistic Gaming Dennis didn't rape Mosley nor forced her into anything sexual. The boob grab was a demonstration of power.
The time that passes between the MC looking at them and the take in the corridor is just a few lines, so there isn't realistically time for Dennis and Mosley to do anything. I'm looking at the script and I can't find anything that hints at that possibility neither. It's interesting to see how some people can read the same scene and bring up different conclusions, though. I really appreciate the feedback.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Actually Autistic Gaming I guess I was right!

But seriously though, I’m just relieved. I was afraid I had totally misunderstood a major plot point. It would have been majorly dark to make Dennis a rapist, even though it’s heavily implied elsewhere that he would be if given the opportunity.

 

[Corambis]

Actually Autistic Gaming I guess I was right!

But seriously though, I’m just relieved. I was afraid I had totally misunderstood a major plot point. It would have been majorly dark to make Dennis a rapist, even though it’s heavily implied elsewhere that he would be if given the opportunity.

Dennis being a rapist would have been a disturbing but at the same time not shocking turn for the game. I can see why some players would see that scene possibly continuing in that way. I believe that Dennis was also promised something by Mosely that would have allowed to get any girl to sleep with him, which, regardless of how it works, has rape-y overtones. At the end of episode 18, I did have a very real concern that Dennis either had or was in the process of blackmailing Tamara or Johanna into sex, which also would be considered by most as rape.

DH was a darker game than what we've seen in the past from the developers, and the two games that had been planned after it at the time looked even darker, so for me it was an open question of just how dark this game was going to go. It turns out it didn't get too dark, despite some events in the last episode that were mainly there for closure on a certain character. But until we finish the game, we never know quite how it will end up. Maybe the developers don't either. A bad reaction by fans to hints of X happening later in the game may make them change their minds about it in the first place. Maybe not because they're afraid of fan backlash, but perhaps because they realize they're not going to get the desired result with it.

Despite my love of second-guessing the developers on this one, it really was a pretty good game though. I think it was perhaps overly ambitious, which is why there seemed to be a lot of loose ends or things not followed up on. I've been a patron of the developers since DfD, and although I was nervous when I saw their plans for a Cyberpunk and noire detective game, I'm much more reassured with there latest news and am really looking forward to it.

 

[Actually Autistic Gaming]

Actually Autistic Gaming I guess I was right!

But seriously though, I’m just relieved. I was afraid I had totally misunderstood a major plot point. It would have been majorly dark to make Dennis a rapist, even though it’s heavily implied elsewhere that he would be if given the opportunity.

I guess you were... I think I was reading too much into it when the MC was thinking "He looks so happy. His smile is more genuine than i've ever seen it." then "He must've gotten... Exactly what he wanted." When he sees Dennis after leaving her office... Since Dennis is constantly talking about wanting to have sex with pretty much everything with a vagina (with the possible exception of Morgan as she is not afraid to demonstrate her contempt of him).

So I guess I was overthinking it. Cannot really blame me though for thinking it was a possibility, Dennis gives off some seriously rapey vibes... He does many illegal and immoral things in the course of the game, many of them sexual in nature so rape didn't seem like much of a stretch for me.

I am glad it did not happen though, as much as I despise the Mossley/Zeta char no one deserves that to happen to them no matter how shitty of a person they are.

 

[lenis0012]

Actually Autistic Gaming I guess I was right!

But seriously though, I’m just relieved. I was afraid I had totally misunderstood a major plot point. It would have been majorly dark to make Dennis a rapist, even though it’s heavily implied elsewhere that he would be if given the opportunity.

you dont say, I thought all the drugs on the boat were for purehearted intentions.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Despite my love of second-guessing the developers on this one, it really was a pretty good game though. I think it was perhaps overly ambitious, which is why there seemed to be a lot of loose ends or things not followed up on. I've been a patron of the developers since DfD, and although I was nervous when I saw their plans for a Cyberpunk and noire detective game, I'm much more reassured with there latest news and am really looking forward to it.

I agree, despite my comments I really did like DH. I feel like it was the ultimate outgrowth of DFD, and took the formula of that game and maximized it. But, as a result, I think DH is the end of the line for both the game style, and the theme. A third game like this would see diminishing returns IMO, even if the art and script writing were superior. You can only go back to the well so many times. For that reason I'm really excited that the new game looks like it's going in a new direction.

I too think the proposed cyberpunk and noire games were going in an odd direction. I trust the team, so they probably could have pulled it off, but it definitely felt like a radical departure.

 

[Corambis]

I agree, despite my comments I really did like DH. I feel like it was the ultimate outgrowth of DFD, and took the formula of that game and maximized it. But, as a result, I think DH is the end of the line for both the game style, and the theme. A third game like this would see diminishing returns IMO, even if the art and script writing were superior. You can only go back to the well so many times. For that reason I'm really excited that the new game looks like it's going in a new direction.

I too think the proposed cyberpunk and noire games were going in an odd direction. I trust the team, so they probably could have pulled it off, but it definitely felt like a radical departure.

DfD starts a trajectory that DH continues, and both do it pretty well. Although I think to continue along that same course wouldn't work well.

I'm sure the Cyberpunk and Noire would have been good games. To be honest, I play these games mainly for the incest part though, combined with the better graphics and writing than you typically see with that genre. I didn't really see that opportunity for that kink in the new games, although I could have been mistaken. I'm hoping that it's an option in the new game they're working on, and ideally more than just a "you can define the relationship" type of thing. There's a lot of good erotic games out there, but a very limited pool of ones that include incest, and an even smaller subset that are as professionally made. That's part of makes me feel that this game was a bit of a lost opportunity. They could have focused on the relationships a lot more and less on Mosely and Dennis and those subplots that didn't really pay off like they thought they would.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

DfD starts a trajectory that DH continues, and both do it pretty well. Although I think to continue along that same course wouldn't work well.

I'm sure the Cyberpunk and Noire would have been good games. To be honest, I play these games mainly for the incest part though, combined with the better graphics and writing than you typically see with that genre. I didn't really see that opportunity for that kink in the new games, although I could have been mistaken. I'm hoping that it's an option in the new game they're working on, and ideally more than just a "you can define the relationship" type of thing. There's a lot of good erotic games out there, but a very limited pool of ones that include incest, and an even smaller subset that are as professionally made. That's part of makes me feel that this game was a bit of a lost opportunity. They could have focused on the relationships a lot more and less on Mosely and Dennis and those subplots that didn't really pay off like they thought they would.

I'll be honest, I'm kinda over the incest thing. It's been fun, but I feel like it's been done to death. In large part, the fact that they can't openly write the story that they want is severely limiting. I don't blame the dev team, that's the nature of the beast, but it would be refreshing to see the kink explored openly (though the pregnancy story turned me off). But these stories where it's all a wink wink and other characters need to act both appropriately shocked when they learn the truth, but not too shocked as to indicate a relationship that would disgust most, is tiring. I'd rather they try a more conventional romantic relationship instead of trying to dance around the incest angle.

 

[Corambis]

I'll be honest, I'm kinda over the incest thing. It's been fun, but I feel like it's been done to death. In large part, the fact that they can't openly write the story that they want is severely limiting. I don't blame the dev team, that's the nature of the beast, but it would be refreshing to see the kink explored openly (though the pregnancy story turned me off). But these stories where it's all a wink wink and other characters need to act both appropriately shocked when they learn the truth, but not too shocked as to indicate a relationship that would disgust most, is tiring. I'd rather they try a more conventional romantic relationship instead of trying to dance around the incest angle.

I won't be over the incest thing in general for a long time, if ever. But I am definitely over the compromises you mention, where they have to write stories such that they at best loosely accommodate incest but don't embrace it. Ultimately we're left with something that doesn't sit right as non-incest because it's the "land-lady and her tenants" situation and other factors, but doesn't really fulfill people like me because it will at best reference the familial relation, but it doesn't alter the story or dialog significantly. There's generally no discussion of the taboo or more than, as you said, a wink to that they shouldn't do it, but not specifically why. I like the games where there's a "third-party" patcher who does significant rewrites of the dialog, or even those games that just forego patreon completely so they can run with what they want. I would have loved for DH to have been free to run with the idea of Tamara and Johanna officially as sisters to the MC, and make that be an often-referenced part of the story that came up to perhaps obnoxious levels, especially leading up to and during sex.

But then again, I have a bit of a runaway incest fetish, so take all of this with a grain of salt. And in this game I did really enjoy the relationships with the other women. Some of them edged out Tamara in popularity with me, because of the already-mentioned stuff Tamara did.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

I don’t understand what the devs and other players saw in Tam, I thought she was awful. She reminded me of Gina from the show Brooklyn 99. Gina is a character that we’re always told is popular and well liked by the other characters, but she’s literally written to be an obnoxious troll who says and does hurtful things. But because she’s “zany” the show acts like it’s ok. But it’s not, and these other characters would want nothing to do with her.

It’s the same thing with Tam. By the end of the story she’s better, but it was too little too late for me. This is a person who had been shitty for 18 years, and went out of her way to be cruel to the MC after the incident. It didn’t work for me when the writing kept telling me how close she and the MC were because I didn’t feel like they should be close.

It would have helped, maybe, if we got more insight into the MC before the incident. We do get some, but I never got the impression that the MC was an asshole, just maybe arrogant and selfish. If he was an asshole it would explain why he and Tam got along so well.

 

[Zed | Love-Joint]

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Hey guys, we hope you’re all keeping safe!

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The Love-Joint Team

 

[Lockyn87]

I don’t understand what the devs and other players saw in Tam, I thought she was awful. She reminded me of Gina from the show Brooklyn 99. Gina is a character that we’re always told is popular and well liked by the other characters, but she’s literally written to be an obnoxious troll who says and does hurtful things. But because she’s “zany” the show acts like it’s ok. But it’s not, and these other characters would want nothing to do with her.

It’s the same thing with Tam. By the end of the story she’s better, but it was too little too late for me. This is a person who had been shitty for 18 years, and went out of her way to be cruel to the MC after the incident. It didn’t work for me when the writing kept telling me how close she and the MC were because I didn’t feel like they should be close.

It would have helped, maybe, if we got more insight into the MC before the incident. We do get some, but I never got the impression that the MC was an asshole, just maybe arrogant and selfish. If he was an asshole it would explain why he and Tam got along so well.

yeh..... but Tamara is more wild which is hotter plus leads to more sexual content I mean that's I play these games.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

yeh..... but Tamara is more wild which is hotter plus leads to more sexual content I mean that's I play these games.

And that's fair. It would have been best to allow players to choose if they wanted a sexual relationship with Tamara. But the devs have said that this is something that they will include in their next game, so I'm happy about that.

All in all, even though I have a lot of comments about DH, it's still a good game and Love-Joint is an A+ developer in my book.

 

[Corambis]

yeh..... but Tamara is more wild which is hotter plus leads to more sexual content I mean that's I play these games.

Well, therein lies part of the problem for me. The game was leading up to Tamara being the aggressive, more sexually expressive one. So when things take the expected course there, BAM! It was all a trap and a drama bomb gets dropped. It's not anything we as the player can avoid, either. It takes over the game for a while, and then suddenly Tam and Jo just decide to share. We actually don't get to have sex with Tam more often or faster than with Jo. I would have liked there to be a slow courtship of Johanna going on, while at the same time this faster, hotter burning affair going on with Tamara at the same time, and the drama coming from trying to keep Johanna from finding out and the MC's own guilt at cheating on his sister with his other sister.

There's also something just off about Tam that I don't think gets fully explained. Part of it is inconsistent behavior, and part of it is just how she interacts with the MC and Johanna. I won't deny she's hot, but there's something cold or not right under that pretty exterior.

And that's fair. It would have been best to allow players to choose if they wanted a sexual relationship with Tamara. But the devs have said that this is something that they will include in their next game, so I'm happy about that.

All in all, even though I have a lot of comments about DH, it's still a good game and Love-Joint is an A+ developer in my book.

I found the illusion of choice in the game to be frustrating, which is something the developers acknowledged. Yes, you could choose what additional girls to pursue, and you could choose to either sleep with Tam or Jo first. But most choices seemed to have no impact, or the question and choices had no apparent connection to what path it might take you down, or there were so many questions that were interrupted before you could choose. When using the variable editor, i found myself wondering what bearing a lot of those questions had on the game itself. A lot involved Tam and Jo, but to what end? Was it possible to change things for them at all? And it was such an unbearably slow process to go through the editor, and try to guess what paths, if any, the questions could open up for you.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

There's also something just off about Tam that I don't think gets fully explained. Part of it is inconsistent behavior, and part of it is just how she interacts with the MC and Johanna. I won't deny she's hot, but there's something cold or not right under that pretty exterior.



I found the illusion of choice in the game to be frustrating, which is something the developers acknowledged. Yes, you could choose what additional girls to pursue, and you could choose to either sleep with Tam or Jo first. But most choices seemed to have no impact, or the question and choices had no apparent connection to what path it might take you down, or there were so many questions that were interrupted before you could choose. When using the variable editor, i found myself wondering what bearing a lot of those questions had on the game itself. A lot involved Tam and Jo, but to what end? Was it possible to change things for them at all? And it was such an unbearably slow process to go through the editor, and try to guess what paths, if any, the questions could open up for you.

While I feel that DH was a good game, and an improvement on DFD, I feel that it also took the style/format/approach to its maximum. A closer look at DH reveals a lot of shortcomings that I think we are able to overlook because we like the game. But if LJ's next game would have followed this approach, I think the shortcomings would have been too much to ignore. But again, LJ is a top notch dev and they are really good about evaluating their products.

I think your comments about Tam and the illusion of choice all speak to the same problem: limited development time. From what I played, and what we've read here, it sounds like the Dev team did a lot of cutting and reworking of the script, and I think that left a lot of plot lines un/under developed. I don't think they had the time to really execute the story they had envisioned. Just about every character and storyline feels under cooked. Yet, they're all cooked enough that they're enjoyable. That's actually probably a testament to the team that they were able to make major adjustements on the fly and keep producing a quality product despite some serious challenges.

 

[cc31]

in which month will DH be entirely complete including epilogues?