VN Ren'Py Abandoned Dr. Amana, Sexual Therapist [v2.0.0P] [Ianvs]

[dontcarewhateverno]

I've been thinking about this game non-stop hardcore for the last 72 hours and this most recent Amanda chapter I'm working on has really inspired some ideas.

I put a poll up in the OP. Check it out and let me know your thoughts.

Based on the wording, answers may not be entirely accurate. Those opposed may be fine with other characters being total whores... just not this character. Jane can take all the cocks she wants, as can most of the other characters. Pass them around like a party favor. For me personally, I'd like to keep both Cassie and Amanda for one MC alone.

That is unless they were doing a... Neighbor's daughter swap night jamboree or something.

 

[1200]

And putting aside my personal preferences for wanting to make more than the $6.50 I made per hour working on this game last month, I don't really care what anyone thinks regarding release dates.

It's my hobby and when I feel like I've made the absolute best thing I can, I'll share it with the world*.
*After I share it with my patrons of course because at the end of the day theirs is the only opinion I care about because they go out of their way to show their love by helping purchase assets and sexy models.


**Optionally of course

Not trying to attack you, you have another job and it takes precedence. But there is likely a correlation between updating once per year and earning 6.50 an hour on the game. It's your project and you can do whatever you want with it. I just raised a valid concern about adding more MC's and more complexity to a project that already suffers time constraints. I like this game, but i don't have much of a say with it anymore for understandable reasons I think. Not trying to be bitter about "WHERES MY UPDATES"

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

Without going into too much detail (I have a massive 1,500+ word post coming that will do that), but I'm thinking in terms of a game having multiple MCs. Like one of your MC's is a business man, another is a school teacher, another is a cop. They each have their own stories and you make all the decisions for them in the game, but some of the LI's might bounce across storylines before it's over. That's kind of the scenario I'm inquiring about.

The wording for the poll was...difficult to say the least. =P

Ah, yeah. That changes it up. First thought was: Nope. Not sharing Amanda, since she was mentioned in your previous post.

 

[Dragon59]

And putting aside my personal preferences for wanting to make more than the $6.50 I made per hour working on this game last month, I don't really care what anyone thinks regarding release dates.

It's my hobby and when I feel like I've made the absolute best thing I can, I'll share it with the world*.
*After I share it with my patrons of course because at the end of the day theirs is the only opinion I care about because they go out of their way to show their love by helping purchase assets and sexy models.

I hear you! I was off for six months on temp disability, but now I'm back to work. Fewer hours in the day to devote to my project. I can retire officially in a few years (unless it turns out I qualify for permanent disability), and once that happens, I'll have more time for my projects while having a basic income coming in. No pressure but what I put on myself.

Which is something I want to explore as a story possibility. Roger and Emily having a polyamorous relationship and deal with all the initial complications of it.

**Optionally of course

But of course! Let me know if you need any help with practical experiences, protocols, expectations, and pitfalls. I've been in the community since the 1980s. I love it!

I'll add my two cents to the poll, i see multi protags games as an excuse to not add a certain tag.

That's my opinion, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

Admittedly, it's a factor in my own choice for multiple points of view. It wasn't going to qualify for the "dreaded tag," but it will hopefully hinder the phobic from declaring it such.

Based on the wording, answers may not be entirely accurate. Those opposed may be fine with other characters being total whores... just not this character. Jane can take all the cocks she wants, as can most of the other characters. Pass them around like a party favor. For me personally, I'd like to keep both Cassie and Amanda for one MC alone.

That is unless they were doing a... Neighbor's daughter swap night jamboree or something.

Use of the word "Jamboree," now makes me picture an official Boy Scout event. Wish special merit badges.

Not trying to attack you, you have another job and it takes precedence. But there is likely a correlation between updating once per year and earning 6.50 an hour on the game. It's your project and you can do whatever you want with it. I just raised a valid concern about adding more MC's and more complexity to a project that already suffers time constraints. I like this game, but i don't have much of a say with it anymore for understandable reasons I think. Not trying to be bitter about "WHERES MY UPDATES"

I can see that when applied to a standard product or even a film production where one has to depend upon crew and actors. I personally take the view of this being a Visual Novel, and look at it as the author's inspiration. I look forward to seeing Ianvs' inspiration in this direction.

That said, it's one reason I'm working on two stories. The contemporary polyamorous one will be very complex and will be hard to speed through. My steampunk adventure story will be much more straightforward with a single MC chosen by the player and largely independent missions per chapter.

 

[ZTex]

I'd have to see it in action to judge.

The few games with multi-protag that i have played weren't executed well enough for me to enjoy that aspect and the scenes that came along with it. I'm sure it can be handled well though in the right story tellers hands.

 

[desmosome]

This poll kind of supporting the view that all those people crying about NTR in every god damn game is a vocal minority. Figures, since I can recognize the dozen or so names that always pull this shit.

To be fair, the game does have toggleable NTR, futa and whatever, so the players visiting this thread might already be of the open minded and tolerant sort.

Anyways, if the plan is for us to play different MCs from Dr. Amana's patient list, I'd be all for recurring characters and cameos. If you want to do something really complex, you can even make events that intersect between the MCs' timelines. Choices from one story could affect their character in another MC's POV. The most complex way would be to allow the player to play any MC's storyline whenever they want. What a coding nightmare lol.

Or... were we talking about a different game that will come after DAST is done?

edit: Oh, but I do worry about the scope of the game and more importantly, the developmental process. It would be best to just finish Roger's storyline first and foremost before doing anything else. At least for the players like us that need to play this in an incremental way.

 

[TheDevian]

This poll kind of supporting the view that all those people crying about NTR in every god damn game is a vocal minority. Figures, since I can recognize the dozen or so names that always pull this shit.

No, it just means they are not in this thread today.

 

[ZTex]

No, it just means they are not in this thread today.

Or alternatively, we're in the thread and not in the poll as the options don't reflect how we feel.

 

[TheDevian]

Or alternatively, we're in the thread and not in the poll as the options don't reflect how we feel.

I would imagine that the ones who are the most vocally against it, would not be here in the first place, since it has the tag.

 

[linkinn]

This poll kind of supporting the view that all those people crying about NTR in every god damn game is a vocal minority.

Sure, and an election is won by winning in a single city.

since I can recognize the dozen or so names that always pull this shit.

Hold your horses there, don't turn this into something it isn't, you are the one that is "pulling this shit" now.

 

[lnppo]

Games with multiple protagonists just don't work for me (exception being Yakuza 0).
Even a sequel with a new protagonist that has a cameo from the old protagonist turn me off because I know my boy is still out there in universe while I'm with this new guy.

 

[mightybored]

Using Jane as an example, if I get to play as Roger giving her advice about a potential boyfriend (that is also controlled by me), I think that's pretty amusing.

 

[Cartageno]

Use of the word "Jamboree," now makes me picture an official Boy Scout event. Wish special merit badges.

"Okay Amanda, you got the 'three holes' badge now. Tomorrow we will go for 'serve 20 in 20 minutes'. Talk to Cassie, she got it today and can give you some hints."

This poll kind of supporting the view that all those people crying about NTR in every god damn game is a vocal minority. Figures, since I can recognize the dozen or so names that always pull this shit.

Apart from what the others say, I don't even share the maths. In my reading we have two more or less "pro NTR" options (1 and 4) and two "anti NTR". At the time of writing the score is 74-69 "pro". Which in an election would win but for judging the size of groups it's more or less an even split.

The problem aren't people pro NTR or anti NTR but people crying. A game's story is what it is. If it doesn't have the content you want or has content you hate, go on elsewhere, plenty of fish in the sea and good games around. There is no "right" or "wrong". Also, even if one group indeed was in the clear minority, it shouldn't mean that every game has to cater to the majority - every niche deserves their games.

I will make exceptions for long standing games that suddenly change their MO (NTR scenes being cut or NTR being introduced). You're still not allowed to change the course of the dev, but you'll be given a free whine. But "making it optional" doesn't count. If you can get through it without NTR, the option doesn't hurt you. If you can get your dose of NTR, the option of others not getting it won't either.

 

[jamdan]

I wouldn't do it because it adds to the complexity of the game too much. We already have multiple LI's, if those LI's all have multiple "MC" LI's themselves, especially considering you make alternative renders for most things and the red/blue paths, the scope of the game will be way too big to manage.

You often talk about making updates quicker, and then add more complex stuff to the game. I don't think these two things can co-exist. Especially multiple MC's.

If you can't help it, then instead of making new "MC" LI's, just make the girls themselves MC for certain segments. Maybe Roger is off working with Naomi, and Emily and Cassie are hanging out at home. You'd take control of one of them and make decisions. These decisions would impact their relationships, and their relationship with Roger. Maybe if Emily is cheating on Roger, she tries to turn Cassie against him too. Maybe if Cassie is being corrupted by Roger, she tries to corrupt Emily herself.

 

[1200]

I wouldn't do it because it adds to the complexity of the game too much. We already have multiple LI's, if those LI's all have multiple "MC" LI's themselves, especially considering you make alternative renders for most things and the red/blue paths, the scope of the game will be way too big to manage.

You often talk about making updates quicker, and then add more complex stuff to the game. I don't think these two things can co-exist. Especially multiple MC's.

If you can't help it, then instead of making new "MC" LI's, just make the girls themselves MC for certain segments. Maybe Roger is off working with Naomi, and Emily and Cassie are hanging out at home. You'd take control of one of them and make decisions. These decisions would impact their relationships, and their relationship with Roger. Maybe if Emily is cheating on Roger, she tries to turn Cassie against him too. Maybe if Cassie is being corrupted by Roger, she tries to corrupt Emily herself.

This... is pretty much what I was trying to say, but said far better

 

[GetOutOfMyLab]

I wouldn't do it because it adds to the complexity of the game too much. We already have multiple LI's, if those LI's all have multiple "MC" LI's themselves, especially considering you make alternative renders for most things and the red/blue paths, the scope of the game will be way too big to manage.

You often talk about making updates quicker, and then add more complex stuff to the game. I don't think these two things can co-exist. Especially multiple MC's.

If you can't help it, then instead of making new "MC" LI's, just make the girls themselves MC for certain segments. Maybe Roger is off working with Naomi, and Emily and Cassie are hanging out at home. You'd take control of one of them and make decisions. These decisions would impact their relationships, and their relationship with Roger. Maybe if Emily is cheating on Roger, she tries to turn Cassie against him too. Maybe if Cassie is being corrupted by Roger, she tries to corrupt Emily herself.

I actually like most of what you suggest here. Let us MC the various girls and make decisions for them.

 

[desmosome]

"Okay Amanda, you got the 'three holes' badge now. Tomorrow we will go for 'serve 20 in 20 minutes'. Talk to Cassie, she got it today and can give you some hints."



Apart from what the others say, I don't even share the maths. In my reading we have two more or less "pro NTR" options (1 and 4) and two "anti NTR". At the time of writing the score is 74-69 "pro". Which in an election would win but for judging the size of groups it's more or less an even split.

The problem aren't people pro NTR or anti NTR but people crying. A game's story is what it is. If it doesn't have the content you want or has content you hate, go on elsewhere, plenty of fish in the sea and good games around. There is no "right" or "wrong". Also, even if one group indeed was in the clear minority, it shouldn't mean that every game has to cater to the majority - every niche deserves their games.

I will make exceptions for long standing games that suddenly change their MO (NTR scenes being cut or NTR being introduced). You're still not allowed to change the course of the dev, but you'll be given a free whine. But "making it optional" doesn't count. If you can get through it without NTR, the option doesn't hurt you. If you can get your dose of NTR, the option of others not getting it won't either.

Fair points. Actually I kind of just glanced over the poll options and thought it is ordered from "I hate it" to "I love it." I realized after that it's closer to an even split, but the post was already quoted so I just left it be.

I am fully in agreement with you on letting devs come up with the story they want to tell. I often leave feedback on newer games I play. I won't talk about the content or direction of the story and characters. I might touch upon their execution and delivery of the story they are trying to tell.

Anyways, Romme's MO is making pretty much everything optional, so even if there was some LI crossover in whatever fashion, it should be up to the player. But I did end my original post with the sentiment that we should just finish DAST with Roger and then think about whatever comes next.

 

[RomanHume]

Nothing To worRy about, I'm sure.

Yeah that never even crossed my mind. And now I just think it's hilarious that people go to that extent to avoid a tag.

I'll be honest I don't even know what tags are on my game at this point. I'd have to check the OP.

Not trying to attack you, you have another job and it takes precedence. But there is likely a correlation between updating once per year and earning 6.50 an hour on the game. It's your project and you can do whatever you want with it. I just raised a valid concern about adding more MC's and more complexity to a project that already suffers time constraints. I like this game, but i don't have much of a say with it anymore for understandable reasons I think. Not trying to be bitter about "WHERES MY UPDATES"

Oh there is definitely a correlation. But I can't imagine a scenario where my game's income will surpass it's expenses and my salary combined. The dollar amount is just something I like to throw out there when I feel like people are giving me shit about release dates, which apparently you weren't so I apologize for that.

All the same though, it's all the changes to reduce the complexity of the infrastructure that is making the option of having multiple MC's possible without any additional work at all on my part.

I've finally resigned myself to the reality that this game will forever be a fun side project for me. Patrons and Subscribers showing support is definitely encouraging and helps offset the cost of software licenses and digital assets. 100% of the patreon income goes back into the game in one direct fashion or another because I honestly don't need those funds for anything else. It make the hobby affordable. But now I'm off on a tangent and you didn't ask about any of this and I no longer know where I was going with this response.

Uh, so yeah. With my simplified classes they are versatile enough to handle multiple MC's without the need for any additional programming or mapping. That's the gist of it.

Ah, yeah. That changes it up. First thought was: Nope. Not sharing Amanda, since she was mentioned in your previous post.

I was just throwing out examples. I don't even have any cross over stories planned yet. I'm just running thought experiments on a few ideas and was curious to know what the players at large thought about the topic.

This poll kind of supporting the view that all those people crying about NTR in every god damn game is a vocal minority. Figures, since I can recognize the dozen or so names that always pull this shit.

To be fair, the game does have toggleable NTR, futa and whatever, so the players visiting this thread might already be of the open minded and tolerant sort.

Whoa! Uh...I'm just gonna say that I don't personally think that 165 votes is a statistically significant sample size...but that's just my two cents.

Anyways, if the plan is for us to play different MCs from Dr. Amana's patient list, I'd be all for recurring characters and cameos. If you want to do something really complex, you can even make events that intersect between the MCs' timelines. Choices from one story could affect their character in another MC's POV. The most complex way would be to allow the player to play any MC's storyline whenever they want. What a coding nightmare lol.

This is generally the idea. I've always had ideas for new MCs and their own games, all of the being patients of the doctor, and having cameos between stories etc. But I'm quickly coming to the realization that after three years of working on this game and still having so much story to tell with these characters that I"m not likely to ever get to tell those other stories.

But if there is a possibility to merge some of those ideas into the existing game, it might be worth exploring after a time.

The stories would ideally impact one another. Choices of one character would have an impact on this character or that which crosses over into another story and back and forth. There would be two caveats to how this would play out though.

First, None of the MC's could even have their face shown. I find that MC faces interfere with my personal immersion so no MC could ever have his face on camera. This means that the MC's would never appear in a scene together. Their stories may overlap and characters might move between them, but they'd never be in the same room at the same time under any circumstances.

This keeps the storylines well defined and lets the player get full immersed in each protagonist. IF, I chose to do this some where down the line.

edit: Oh, but I do worry about the scope of the game and more importantly, the developmental process. It would be best to just finish Roger's storyline first and foremost before doing anything else. At least for the players like us that need to play this in an incremental way.

That's the other trade off. The story will become more episodic and unfold in a specified pattern. Patrons and Subscribers still get to vote on who the next episode is about and there will be an organic development as a result, but with each episode having a self contained plot, I no longer have to code for a dozen what if variables.

Games with multiple protagonists just don't work for me (exception being Yakuza 0).
Even a sequel with a new protagonist that has a cameo from the old protagonist turn me off because I know my boy is still out there in universe while I'm with this new guy.

My plan was always for the characters in this game and future games to exist in the same universe, but no MC's would ever meet because I have a strict 'no face' rule when it comes to the MC's in my game. I personally prefer never seeing the MC's face because it's helps me personally get immersed.

I wouldn't do it because it adds to the complexity of the game too much. We already have multiple LI's, if those LI's all have multiple "MC" LI's themselves, especially considering you make alternative renders for most things and the red/blue paths, the scope of the game will be way too big to manage.

You often talk about making updates quicker, and then add more complex stuff to the game. I don't think these two things can co-exist. Especially multiple MC's.

It's actually all my recent efforts to simplify that now make this possible without adding any complexity. Momentarily I'll repost some of a different conversation I had yesterday that might help clarify my mindset.

At the end of the day the last piece of the simplification puzzle is reducing the time it takes to produce the final draft for a scene. Changes I'm making in that department are opening up the possibility for more dynamic stories without added complexity.

I'm working on a stupid long developer post that might illuminate some of my thought process, but I'm still working on that.

If you can't help it, then instead of making new "MC" LI's, just make the girls themselves MC for certain segments. Maybe Roger is off working with Naomi, and Emily and Cassie are hanging out at home. You'd take control of one of them and make decisions. These decisions would impact their relationships, and their relationship with Roger. Maybe if Emily is cheating on Roger, she tries to turn Cassie against him too. Maybe if Cassie is being corrupted by Roger, she tries to corrupt Emily herself.

At the end of the day I like staying outside of the head of my LI's. One, I like their thoughts and desires to be mysterious to some degree, and two, I want control over how their personalities develop through the story because that makes it easier to write. There has to be some degree of two-dimensionality to the characters to keep them grounded and moving in a logical direction while that third dimension, the red/blue paths are free to vary.

 

[RomanHume]

Anyways, Romme's MO is making pretty much everything optional, so even if there was some LI crossover in whatever fashion, it should be up to the player. But I did end my original post with the sentiment that we should just finish DAST with Roger and then think about whatever comes next.

This is also a key take away and one of the reasons that the poll is strictly to satisfy curiosity and not inform development choice.

If I decide to run this route a year from now and Jane crosses into another MC's story and you don't want her whoring around, you'd always have the option of not having sex as the new MC thereby forcing her loyalty to Roger in the other storyline.

I may force some story and personality traits, but I'll never force player choice. Kinks, fetishes, sexual partners and game altering decisions will always remain firmly in player hands.

And that's not because I'm trying to please people but because as a player it's what I want in games as well.

 

[RomanHume]

Here, if any one is bored and wants to waste some time inside my head, I truncated the conversation for convenience.

Synopsis from Discord:

There has been a lot going through my head as of late regarding the game. I'm working up a giant ass post that will kind of detail the thought process.

But if you want the short version, I've been writing this game the only way I know how. In the traditional novel/short story, 3-act fashion. Each character with a beginning, middle and end.

But because I wanted players to be able to pick whatever character they want, when they want, I have near zero control over the order the characters are played in. That limits how much cross over I can do which makes the chapters very narrow and only focused on a single character. it's fine, but it's very one dimensional.

Suddenly, when writing for Amanda I fell into the vicious cycle of If Roger says this, and the character already has blue/red scores, then the answers need to change this way or that and before I know it I had 2,500 words of text in the scene, of which only about 500 would be seen in a play through. The rest were just alternate versions to accommodate the possibility of other events happening first.

But since each character had their own plot, it was like having all the characters in the same pool, swimming in one direction but every had to stay in their own lane or things would quickly get murky.

Then it was like out of the blue I had an epiphany. Rather than write this game like a novel or a movie, it needs to be more like an episodic TV show. Reoccurring characters, evolving story lines. But each chapter/episode needs to be a self contained plot that can lend to character development, tell and engaging story, but not be concerned with where they'll be six episodes from now.

So over the weekend I started reading books and watching videos on screenwriting for television and suddenly this whole fucking world of possibility opened up in front me.

In a typical 1-hour show you have five well defined acts. The plot is contained entirely in those acts. But you also have up to 4 parallel story lines unfolding at once, with each new story having a lower priority and impact within the episode.

So I put this to the test with the Amanda chapter and all of the sudden I had this amazing 12-scene, multicharacter story unfolding with Amanda having the primary story, Cassie having her own plot with the secondary story, Jane having a tertiary tale unfolding, and a single scene with Emily that sets up future events but is itself a three act drama in a single scene.

It's hands down some of the best writing I've done for this game yet.

There is cross-over, development, rising action and lots of players choices in each scene.

This has me thinking that maybe I've been tackling this all wrong. If I want the kind of detail characterization and evolving story that I've always envisioned, in which all these characters co-exist, know each other and have an impact on each other as well as the MC, then an episodic structure might be the best way to go.

And it opens up the possibility of Amana actually getting her own chapters and scenes and we can tell the story of the evolving relationship between her and Roger.

It means the game unfolds in a more linear fashion, episode 1, episode 2, etc. But since each plot is self contained, we can continue voting on who is next and develop the stories in any order want. Plus by having 3 to 4 sub plots per episode, we can start giving screen time to the characters that aren't getting much of it.

And yes, writing cross character story arcs becomes a shit load easier because I won't have to consider all the what-ifs. The past will be well written and deviations can be made for the choices the character made previously. The upside is we'll know what those choices were and can account for them specifically rather than writing a ton of 'if' statements to cover our ass.

And none of this has to impact the improvements I've made with the development. We can still crank out scenes at the same pace. Release playtests for each act and then bundle them up at the end of the month as a complete 12-16 scene episode.

At the end of the day, what I know is that rewriting Amanda's chapter this way, was some of the fastest, easiest, and best writing I've done. And the plot I have laid out for the opening is stronger than any previous iteration.

Oh, another side perk is that I can provide a sex scene per episode because even for a slow burn character like Amanda, the sex can happen in a side plot with another character until such time as we pop dat cherry!

I never wanted the blue/red system to lead to player punishment by not making the 'correct' choice. That is why I opted for a system where your decisions impact the way other characters behave and act, but ultimately all roads lead to Rome. An episodic structure would make it easier to explore 'side paths' without much difficulty. But I still want to avoid the players feeling like they are missing out 'rewards' just because they chose differently than other players or the way the developer thinks they should have.

Anyway, all this kind of leads me back around to the poll on F95.

First off, let's be clear, I've already made choices. The poll is out of curiosity and nothing else. If this was a poll to determine game content it would be left strictly to supporters.

But I got to thinking, if I'm going to do this episodic, and I'm just doing it for shits and giggles because I enjoy making it and I love telling stories, does the game really need an end. Or do I just let it trail on forever in an endless series of episodes like any other good 14 season show?

But if I do that, then I'll never get to make the other games I have hovering in the back of my mind.

Then I realized that with the new naming system I have already implemented, and the relationships system that lets characters define their relationships with each other and not just the MC, there is no reason I can't have more than one MC. The programming is already there!

But then I'm like, ok, what if one MC is a teacher and he catches Jane trying to jimmy the lock of the principal's door. If she tries to fuck him to get out of trouble, is that going to piss of the players who are enamored with Roger and his story line. I was curious about the answer.

Plus with an episodic structure my workload goes down exponentially.

Because I no longer have to think about the big picture. I don't have to write a chapter and think about how it's going to impact things four chapters down the line.

Instead, 100% of my creative energy gets to go directly into the chapter I'm working on now and the rest of the story can just naturally evolve.

And if each of the MC's was a patient of Dr. Amana, there becomes this common thread the binds them together.

But the population of characters around these MC's would be free to move between story lines without longer term ramifications and we would get to see how they behave in different situations and really evolve them multidimensionally.

Ideally these other MC's wouldn't be one shot characters. They'd have their own stories and histories to be told. Plus they offer opportunities to bring in other students......I um....I mean characters. And it alleviates me having to explain how it is Roger has the ability to maintain 15 individual relationships simultaneously.

Understand that I've not yet committed to the idea of multiple MCs.

Right now it's just a thought I'm playing with based on the idea that I wouldn't have to do anything to code it and make it work. And writing it would just fall within the natural context of the episode by episode evolution.

But the MC's would never cross paths with each other because if they do then I have to commit to giving them faces and I don't want to do that.

I want each MC to be singularly immersive and the only way to do that is to never show their face.

And the only way I can avoid ever showing their face is to make sure the MC's always stay isolated from one another.

And while I would consider including female MC's, I never want to get inside the head of any of the LI's. I like keeping that part a mystery.

Much as I hate to say it, but this change would just be another one in a long line of major switch ups. I think the best compliment I've ever gotten was from a patron whose been around since version 1. He basically said, 'I hate that you change your mind about your game once a year. But every time you do it becomes even more fucking AMAZING!'

I can only hope that this episodic switch is another in that line of annoying, yet pleasure multiplying changes.