VN Ren'Py Abandoned Ecchi Sensei [Day 22-23 Final] [BlueCat]

[jaw1986baby]

Well everyone has to admit that they are not trying to take money.

As Eku7 points out their revenue has shrunk to almost 1/3 whereas if they left the buggy shit as is and just slapped new content together they would very much have made A LOT more money.

So as Skummy says this is NOT evil intent or malicious profiteering, it is incompetence.

At this point it is best to just wait for them to clear this reprogram hurdle with the one benefit being that all new content will be on better framework and easier to merge. So then they can go back to production (which was pretty good levels if I recall correctly).

The other big unanswered question is how big will it be at the end of the merge? If it is too big you will need to torrent the content. Do they want to merge the next full 30 day month into one month or one merge total? Because well.... I would hope their Subs/Patrons vote no on merging anything that big. Again leading to the how the hell do you host something that big?

My random thoughts

PEACE

 

[Badjourasmix]

So as Skummy says this is NOT evil intent or malicious profiteering, it is incompetence.

Pretty much this. People always assume that devs have malicious intent when that is very often not the case. The stuff they are doing now with fixing the code, etc, should have been done a long time ago. Now with all the content they have in the game it is a lot harder to fix. This is one of the reasons why I don't really complain when devs decide to remake/rework early content just after a couple of releases. It is better that they do all that stuff early than having to deal with this kind of situations in the future.

 

[phdusa1]

Well everyone has to admit that they are not trying to take money.

As Eku7 points out their revenue has shrunk to almost 1/3 whereas if they left the buggy shit as is and just slapped new content together they would very much have made A LOT more money.

So as Skummy says this is NOT evil intent or malicious profiteering, it is incompetence.

At this point it is best to just wait for them to clear this reprogram hurdle with the one benefit being that all new content will be on better framework and easier to merge. So then they can go back to production (which was pretty good levels if I recall correctly).

The other big unanswered question is how big will it be at the end of the merge? If it is too big you will need to torrent the content. Do they want to merge the next full 30 day month into one month or one merge total? Because well.... I would hope their Subs/Patrons vote no on merging anything that big. Again leading to the how the hell do you host something that big?

My random thoughts

PEACE

I believe it is around 15-16 GB, I think someone from the team mentioned it a while ago(I might be incorrect), but they were trying to get it reduced. It won't be a problem for me as I have fast internet but could be for a lot of their patreons.
And I think you are right about the money thing but you need to ask you team if something is achievable or not. Telling people in december that alpha would be out in some days and then complete silence for couple of months and nothing to show for next 7 months doesn't make them look very good.

 

[Skummy Ecchi]

Month 1 will be smaller than week 1 uncompressed

This is because a revision to stop using hardcode and instead using better coding methods to reference data instead of pinging for it every time you want to execute an action. Basically unfucking a massive amount of early game code, which itself was unfucked twice now...

That and everything will be light compressed, it has minimal drops in quality (Nobody can really tell unless they have a high enough def anyways), and saves a whole lot of room, like its one third the size. so anyone with reliable internet (Read: Not on DSL) will be able to download it within a matter of minutes to maybe an hour depending on how much your splurge on internet costs. Those with DSL are fucked always anyways, and shouldn't ever expect anything to go right for them, I know I never want to go back to that hell. I downloaded uncompressed ES on DSL and it took a fucking full day and multiple restarts lol

The point I'm making it with all the shit unfucked, the game gets smaller in file size. I'm pretty sure productivity moving forward, due to all the automations Latecomer has been putting into play, will also expedite since there's a good solid foundation to work from after. But that remains to be seen after Month 1 completes, which I'm impatient about yee.

As for why I'm still here doing this job? Simple, I don't owe anyone jack shit, but since I believe in Bluecat I want to at least protect the integrity of his work, even if he's not good at managing it. Beyond protecting that, I feel people are owed answers because not all of you are pirates, but you're here hoping that there's more info than on official channels. Therefore I'm doing what I can to provide those answers when I have them, and to sooth things over when I don't (I'm really bad at that cause I get mad easily :3).

That's pretty much it, protect Bluecat's integrity as a creator and inform you guys to the best of my ability since blue can't seem to formulate a way to do that-maybe I'm codling him and protecting him from having to? I unno. I might very well have saved him some patrons frankly, I'll never know.

I'm still sleepy, been cleaning my house and working and D&D...too much stuff crammed into just a few days I swear. Even sleeping makes me sleepy lol

Till next time!

Stay Sleepy, Stay Ecchi!

~Skummy Out

 

[D1bacle]

Just passing through with a little question, don't know about any of the drama going on behind this but uh...what DM patch do you install for week 3? Do I just use the day 20+21?

 

[unifan616]

Does anyone know what bluecat is stuck on with the game?

 

[Barkley1981]

from what i feel it maybe is better to just dump everything and build the game new from scratch. could be a shorter time than fixing the actual game at least they have the renders ready a year without progress is normally a killing blow for a game. hope this wont happen in this game...

 

[baloneysammich]

So as Skummy says this is NOT evil intent or malicious profiteering, it is incompetence.

Incompetence can only go so far as a defense, at some point it has to be regarded as "willful ignorance" at best or "gross negligence" at worst. Also it's possible to scam people without malicious intent, and even perpetuate such a scam without recognizing it.

At this point it is best to just wait for them to clear this reprogram hurdle with the one benefit being that all new content will be on better framework and easier to merge.

Myself and others made the same arguments about "reprogramming for a better framework" during the W1 merge delay, and here we are again. At this point I think it's clear that progressing with the release of ES is just not a priority for BC. I'm not even talking about compared to the whole of his life. I'm saying that just within the limited scope of his priorities regarding ES, something or somethings are more important to him than release. Maybe he's super picky about the people he's willing to work with. Maybe his relationship with the main programmer (who is apparently still ill?) makes him reluctant to bring in a replacement, even temporarily. Maybe it's something largely outside of his control, like some sort of artistic OCD or an autism-spectrum condition. This doesn't mean he's not invested in the future of ES, just that he's unwilling or unable to take what I would consider reasonable steps to push for release.

Now, I'm not a patron so my perspective doesn't matter. And I legitimately can't fathom why people continue to patronize ES, so it's not reasonable to project my perspective onto them. Hell, it's even hard for me to fathom why people patronize anything to begin with, because there is no obligation whatsoever on the part of the creator. Which makes it even more unreasonable to project onto anyone who does patronize. All I can say is, if there are any patrons who think release is a high priority for BC & Co., IMO they are effectively being scammed. I would say they kind of deserve it at this point, because at this point they either haven't been paying attention or have been deceiving themselves, but one has to consider the sunk-cost fallacy and the fact that they may effectively be addicts jonesing for their next fix:

Kinda feeling like I stumbled into a crackhouse in the midst of an awful crack-shortage xD

(that was posted during the wait for D6 release...)

 

[Deleted member 440241]

Just passing through with a little question, don't know about any of the drama going on behind this but uh...what DM patch do you install for week 3? Do I just use the day 20+21?

Yes

Does anyone know what bluecoat is stuck on with the game?

Based on what was posted to this thread after the last Patreon update the last thing they're working on is making the character bios work with the translation system. I didn't see anyone copy the actual patreon post to share here, and I'm not a patron myself so I don't know how reliable that info is. I also don't know why that would take over a month to do.

Also it's possible to scam people without malicious intent

Both by the meaning of the term and legal standards, it really isn't. "Scam" is effectively just a common word for "fraud" in which a person uses lies to profit without providing something of value in return. Unless Bluecat has come to a full stop on work and is just pocketing the money this isn't a scam.

 

[Semantics]

Incompetence can only go so far as a defense, at some point it has to be regarded as "willful ignorance" at best or "gross negligence" at worst. Also it's possible to scam people without malicious intent, and even perpetuate such a scam without recognizing it.

Both by the meaning of the term and legal standards, it really isn't. "Scam" is effectively just a common word for "fraud" in which a person uses lies to profit without providing something of value in return. Unless Bluecat has come to a full stop on work and is just pocketing the money this isn't a scam.

Somewhat true! By the non-legal definitions (My account name is Semantics, not Legalese, so I'm not touching that), a scam does need to have malicious intent behind it.

Buuuuuuut it can provide "something of value in return" and still be a scam. For instance, selling knock-off products as the real thing is scamming but does involve a product of some value in return. ...Just not the product or value the buyer was led to believe. Scams also don't need to specifically lying that you're providing something of value in return. Insurance fraud and various forms of account fraud would generally be considered scams too.

That said, all this misses the biggest issue. Even if this merge gets completed and released tomorrow, there will always be more setbacks and issues, more team members getting sick or quitting or any number of issues. Past a certain point, incompetence (It's almost certainly this one, there are far easier ways to scam than this) or scam makes no difference, because current patrons and potential patrons lose hope. And that's important, because Patreon is built on getting people to believe in your project and ability to complete it. There are certain devs who could release a new 0.1 and not get two patrons to rub together for their efforts because they've burned all good will. Bluecat isn't anywhere near there yet, but long delays while only posting non-content news every two months is a great way to get there eventually.

 

[EvilMonkey]

....Both by the meaning of the term and legal standards, it really isn't. "Scam" is effectively just a common word for "fraud" in which a person uses lies to profit without providing something of value in return. Unless Bluecat has come to a full stop on work and is just pocketing the money this isn't a scam.

Something can be labelled as a 'Scam' if something is promised but not delivered. Like if someone were to have grand ideas for a product and sell the idea to customers only for the end product to fall far short of their promises. The initial person could have nothing but good intentions but be without the ability, resources or knowledge to deliver on their ideas.

 

[The the Guy]

That said, all this misses the biggest issue. Even if this merge gets completed and released tomorrow, there will always be more setbacks and issues, more team members getting sick or quitting or any number of issues. Past a certain point, incompetence (It's almost certainly this one, there are far easier ways to scam than this) or scam makes no difference, because current patrons and potential patrons lose hope. And that's important, because Patreon is built on getting people to believe in your project and ability to complete it. There are certain devs who could release a new 0.1 and not get two patrons to rub together for their efforts because they've burned all good will. Bluecat isn't anywhere near there yet, but long delays while only posting non-content news every two months is a great way to get there eventually.

This is probably one of the best things I've heard. I like the game, wanted more, and want to give Bluecat some money but I just dont know if there will be any beta/alpha or something any time soon or if they can be trusted to get a product out. It also tells a good way to donate to patreons. If people constantly miss deadlines or cant give regular updates (ideally once a month and with evidence of progress) it's probably better to steer clear of them.

 

[baloneysammich]

Both by the meaning of the term and legal standards, it really isn't. "Scam" is effectively just a common word for "fraud" in which a person uses lies to profit without providing something of value in return. Unless Bluecat has come to a full stop on work and is just pocketing the money this isn't a scam.

All I can say is, "scam" is an informal term, and assuming my view of the situation is correct (briefly, that BC is less driven to produce a release than patrons believe he is or expect him to be) I think it's wholly appropriate. Generally, I consider any financial relationship where the intentions of the receiver(s) aren't in alignment with the expectations of the contributor(s) potentially deserving of the label.

At the same time I'm fully aware that, as someone who doesn't really buy into the idea of Patreon, I may be inappropriately projecting onto those who do. Or at least, onto those who continue to patronize BC.

 

[Dragon59]

All I can say is, "scam" is an informal term, and assuming my view of the situation is correct (briefly, that BC is less driven to produce a release than patrons believe he is or expect him to be) I think it's wholly appropriate. Generally, I consider any financial relationship where the intentions of the receiver(s) aren't in alignment with the expectations of the contributor(s) potentially deserving of the label.

At the same time I'm fully aware that, as someone who doesn't really buy into the idea of Patreon, I may be inappropriately projecting onto those who do. Or at least, onto those who continue to patronize BC.

Well, the socially agreed upon definition of scam is "A dishonest scheme," so intent matters when most people are using the term. If people start using their own definitions for words, communication becomes more difficult. I see this a lot when people insist upon their own definitions of netorare, scam, and such.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

 

[baloneysammich]

Well, the socially agreed upon definition of scam is "A dishonest scheme," so intent matters when most people are using the term. If people start using their own definitions for words, communication becomes more difficult. I see this a lot when people insist upon their own definitions of netorare, scam, and such.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

And the thing is, even with your socially agreed upon definition the term is still appropriate in my mind, because I don't believe dishonesty necessarily implies intent do deceive. Delving into that would take us down a philosophical and etymological rabbit hole though.

All I can do is apologize for any confusion I caused, and keep this in mind the next time someone uses a term in a way that's unfamiliar to me.

 

[RandoCard3]

Whether scam requires malicious intent is irrelevant. All that matters is that's clearly what people mean when they suggest a dev is sitting on the Patreon money until they're forced to act. Arguing about the meaning of the word is just getting distracted from the actual point.

Also, a question for Skummy. When the merge jobs, and we get back to regular updates, what are the chances of "RedCat" cleaning up the patch page to avoid further confusion? I don't mind helping people asking about what to do, but when there's an obvious fix, I don't see why that shouldn't be used. I realise you're not on the team so may not have an answer, but I'd rather not pester the devs at this point, as I imagine they're already under a fuck ton of pressure.

 

[Virulenz]

Bluecat is not a coder and not a translater...so he was pretty useless for the whole merge project except for remaking a few backround pictures for the stuff with text overlay (if they didnt stored them before to make the translations more easy) and had almost a whole year to write and render new stuff...if there will be no fast updates after the merge finally shows up, we know he was just a lazy cat enjoing the free money...
Dont get me wrong, i wouldnt be lurking in this topic if i thought of him as just a scammer, i liked the game and really wanna see it to continue, but after such a long time it is impossible for sane people to not doubt the repeating excuses, especially after months of silence. Thats also why i dont understand the rich people who still pay every month without getting anything out of it. Until the next release shows up that money should better be donated to places/people/organisations who actually do anything meaningful with it...that also would have the side effect of speeding things up, why work if you get that much money for doing nothing?

 

[Smarmint]

Bluecat as a "scammer" doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would he have gone to all the trouble, with his team, to make such a huge game, with many hours of gameplay, and close to the record, for games here, of number of images and dialog, just to drop it off a cliff suddenly, years later? If he has some nefarious plan, it doesn't make logical sense, at all.

If he was truly scamming all of us, which I don't believe, he would have held back much of his content, and just released a little at a time on a regular schedule, and he would be making lots more income, and with a lot less work.

It is clear that Bluecat, unfortunately, delegated way too much control of the game to his team members, which are not accountable at all because their name is not on the game, and they don't have to defend their (lack) of work, so he has to just wait around for them to finish all their work, just like the rest of us.

I don't know how he sets up the financials, whether he pays the team each month, or pays then for work submitted, but however he is doing it, there doesn't seem to be much incentive by the team members to produce. I know game VN development is not really a job like most of us think of it, but even as a freelancer, 10 months of (almost) nothing would get pretty much any other programmer replaced.

Like pretty most people here, I don't see much light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon. I am quite sure that 3 months from now, there will be nothing new other than a status update or two that "work is happening". I don't think Bluecat has any idea himself whether it will be next month or in 6 months, or longer.

The best way forward for the game is to hire someone else, pay them enough so that you get an accomplished programmer and RenPy developer, and have them reprogram the game from scratch. With all the renders and dialog completed, and very few (none) meaningful choices, it is a piece of cake, really. Plus, this new person would already know how to compress images, so the release will be much smaller. The size of the game is 95% images, not the code.
Also, if Bluecat he has a close relationship with his other team member(s), keep them on as an "assistant" and give them very little responsibility. Maybe just translation or story ideas.

 

[Skummy Ecchi]

Rando I'm not quite sure what you mean by cleaning up, if you mean removing every other patch that isn't just Month 1 then maybe? If its a naming issue I can talk with Redcat on how to properly name files for update to update yez.

Beyond that, Bluecat had a lot of work to do this merge, adding much more text in all the features he wanted to fully implement. I dunno what else he did beyond that, but he did do more work than you're giving credit for, once everything was finally pushed together. The updates should be back to regular schedule afterwards, not faster as you would like, because while Bluecat already has those assets in place? He always has, he's always been months ahead of his team in terms of progress, and thus he's never been a blockage in the system.

Whenever this is over it will be a return to normalcy, not expediency. I get that there is little hope for this ending, I really do, so that's why I'm just saying to chillax and not worry too much. I have no idea when this saga is ending, but I'd rather we all be relaxed than fighting over nonsense .

If that's all I'll be off,

Stay Ecchi!

~Skummy Out

 

[baloneysammich]

and had almost a whole year to write and render new stuff... if there will be no fast updates after the merge finally shows up, we know he was just a lazy cat enjoing the free money...

Sadly, this only holds true if BlueCat was the 'bottleneck' before the merge, which seems unlikely given the current state of affairs.

Edit: Skummy beat me to the punch.