VN Ren'Py Abandoned Ecchi Sensei [Day 22-23 Final] [BlueCat]

[rostabu]

for which set? I'd pay more for the black ones

 

[Soulonus]

Kind of disagree with this, having used the software myself. It's still very much a 3d game, you can load animations and poses onto your models, changing clothes is a few clicks. The hard part is like with every other 3d game, making assets from scratch, modeling clothes to existing models, etc. The only part I find tedious is since it's a game it has more limitations and they can be quite annoying, personally I found positioning npc's and what not to be annoying. On the flip side a lot of stuff is already made to make things easier, tons of assets to find, mods to get, etc. Each have their pros and cons in the end.

The game is a 3D game, definitely.

But I think you missed the point, what the earlier guy was saying is also right.

Inside HS or Daz even, everything is 3D, and the game Dev didn't have to make every scene for you. It has 3D models that you can turn and play around with. But in the case of using these 'assets' in VNs, they are indeed 2D. You put renders (which as 2D) into renpy, which in turn requires you to not only make the model in this software but also take renders for every branching scene/situation you introduce.

The difference being. In a 3D game, you would texture the 3D model, and the player is free to take the model (character) anywhere in the world that you made (also textured 3D models) and that's that. But in the case of these 2D games, you have to texture the models and also render out every possible action/situation possible. And that just makes it a bit tedious and complicated in the long run.

 

[Dukez]

The game is a 3D game, definitely.

But I think you missed the point, what the earlier guy was saying is also right.

Inside HS or Daz even, everything is 3D, and the game Dev didn't have to make every scene for you. It has 3D models that you can turn and play around with. But in the case of using these 'assets' in VNs, they are indeed 2D. You put renders (which as 2D) into renpy, which in turn requires you to not only make the model in this software but also take renders for every branching scene/situation you introduce.

The difference being. In a 3D game, you would texture the 3D model, and the player is free to take the model (character) anywhere in the world that you made (also textured 3D models) and that's that. But in the case of these 2D games, you have to texture the models and also render out every possible action/situation possible. And that just makes it a bit tedious and complicated in the long run.

Maybe I am but I also think the explanation still isn't right and is highly dependent on the game. You aren't 'texturing' 2D assets in renpy, it's a picture. It's already been' textured' in other programs prior to hitting renpy, all renpy is receiving is a screenshot of something.

Now depending on the game, the background, characters etc may all just be part of one image. This is how Ecchi Sensei does it, he builds the characters in Illusion's PlayHome software, environments (or built in unity and ported into PlayHome) then they are placed for the scene in 3d space (since it's all 3d models) and screenshotted > picture into renpy. Some times picture animations (or videos? Not sure BlueCat does actual videos).

Other games may separate the background, characters etc into separate images and overlay them to reduce game size bloat or other design reasons, just a different way of doing it but when done wrong makes characters feel detached from their backgrounds.

I think it mainly just comes down to the game's design, you could have equal tediousness in a fully 3d game that had branching actions as well. 3D games that let you walk around have more things to consider and potentially fix compared to a Renpy game where every action is fully controlled and directed.

I guess mainly I think calling it a 2d game while technically correct simplifies how it's made too much imo.

 

[Soulonus]

Maybe I am but I also think the explanation still isn't right and is highly dependent on the game. You aren't 'texturing' 2D assets in renpy, it's a picture. It's already been' textured' in other programs prior to hitting renpy, all renpy is receiving is a screenshot of something.

Now depending on the game, the background, characters etc may all just be part of one image. This is how Ecchi Sensei does it, he builds the characters in Illusion's PlayHome software, environments (or built in unity and ported into PlayHome) then they are placed for the scene in 3d space (since it's all 3d models) and screenshotted > picture into renpy. Some times picture animations (or videos? Not sure BlueCat does actual videos).

Other games may separate the background, characters etc into separate images and overlay them to reduce game size bloat or other design reasons, just a different way of doing it but when done wrong makes characters feel detached from their backgrounds.

Taking screenshots is essentially the extra step here, and as you said it is indeed highly dependent on the game. Some concepts would be easier to pull off in 3D than in 2D in vice versa.

As far as I understand, he was quoting a friend, and that friend was only talking in general terms (and definitely not in terms of ES). Hugely branching paths would indeed make designing every scene and taking out renders for each a real headache, and as mentioned in the original quote would make it harder to go back and change things as you would have to consider multiple branches.

And as you mentioned it isn't exactly true in the case of ES as the story is mostly linear (you choose to see/or skip things) and there are essentially no real branching paths here.

I am not saying you are wrong, I just think you missed the point of the OP in being that it indeed can be hard to change up things in a branching story (compared to a linear one).

I think it mainly just comes down to the game's design, you could have equal tediousness in a fully 3d game that had branching actions as well. 3D games that let you walk around have more things to consider and potentially fix compared to a Renpy game where every action is fully controlled and directed.

I agree entirely, it is at its core down to the design decision. Because of this point only, traditionally, 3D games would be largely linear, and 2D games would use branching paths.

I guess mainly I think calling it a 2d game while technically correct simplifies how it's made too much imo.

For all intents and purposes, renpy games (like the ones we are talking about) are indeed 2D games that have 3D CG. Having 3D CG doesn't make the game a 3D game. Again HS (or PH) is a 3D game, but ES (other similar renpy games) are 2D. HS is being used as a tool to produce 3D graphics for a 2D game. So again in the context of the original conversation, I would like to stand on my point that it (the ES like renpy games) are 2D games. They do use 3DCG from a 3D game (Illusion titles) but they are still only using pictures (as you yourself pointed out) from these games, making them technically and rightfully 2D.

The tool in this case is a 3D game in itself is beyond the point I believe.

 

[Dukez]

Taking screenshots is essentially the extra step here, and as you said it is indeed highly dependent on the game. Some concepts would be easier to pull off in 3D than in 2D in vice versa.

As far as I understand, he was quoting a friend, and that friend was only talking in general terms (and definitely not in terms of ES). Hugely branching paths would indeed make designing every scene and taking out renders for each a real headache, and as mentioned in the original quote would make it harder to go back and change things as you would have to consider multiple branches.

Yeah that's true, I was forgetting how much more of a headache it would be in games like this to go back and change things since you would have to re-render pictures out each time. Even if you had the scenes saved so it was 'easy' to implement the changes you want to do it's still extremely more tedious than a 3d game where changes can be retroactive like replacing the main model and it applying to the whole game instantly.

I wonder if the merged game will have stuff like this done and to what extent, though I'm not sure if I'd believe them if they said they were until I see the finished product given how much time has passed at this point.

For all intents and purposes, renpy games (like the ones we are talking about) are indeed 2D games that have 3D CG. Having 3D CG doesn't make the game a 3D game. Again HS (or PH) is a 3D game, but ES (other similar renpy games) are 2D. HS is being used as a tool to produce 3D graphics for a 2D game. So again in the context of the original conversation, I would like to stand on my point that it (the ES like renpy games) are 2D games. They do use 3DCG from a 3D game (Illusion titles) but they are still only using pictures (as you yourself pointed out) from these games, making them technically and rightfully 2D.

The tool in this case is a 3D game in itself is beyond the point I believe.

Yeah, in the end it is very much a 2D product that we as consumers experience so fair enough on that point. It sometimes makes me wonder how a 3D game done in real time would turn out while still using the same directed game design you see in most renpy games. Quality would have to be lower if going for the more realistic approach that some games can do with their rendering since it's does in pictures instead of real time, along with the performance needed to even get close to that but with UE5 stuff I do wonder if something could be made pretty close and have a faster production schedule as a result.

 

[Soulonus]

I wonder if the merged game will have stuff like this done and to what extent, though I'm not sure if I'd believe them if they said they were until I see the finished product given how much time has passed at this point.

Personally keeping my hopes low.

Yeah, in the end it is very much a 2D product that we as consumers experience so fair enough on that point. It sometimes makes me wonder how a 3D game done in real time would turn out while still using the same directed game design you see in most renpy games. Quality would have to be lower if going for the more realistic approach that some games can do with their rendering since it's does in pictures instead of real time, along with the performance needed to even get close to that but with UE5 stuff I do wonder if something could be made pretty close and have a faster production schedule as a result.

Yea, since the launch of UE5 I've been thinking about it too. It's pretty accessible really. But it is kind of uncharted territory. A lot of game decisions make it actually worth it for both the developer and the player.

Also the thing about releasing a UE game in parts? Not sure if that would work well without a proper infra to support updates etc. It is really something exciting to think about surely.

 

[zd69]

Finished week 1 integrated. Are there any specials I should play before playing Week 2 integrated (D8-14_v1.0_Final)? Is there a way to import my save, or do the decisions I made in Week 1 not carry over in any way at this time to Week 2?

 

[rostabu]

for me it was a straight play through until late day 8 or early day 9

 

[ThaRealThiccShady]

Apologies if I'm beating a dead horse but any news on when month 1 will be done? Crazy how long it's taken. I get they're working on a lot for this update but it's been over a year now-never seen another VN take that long

 

[rentintin]

ren'py is a glorified picture slide software/platform. it's about as simple as they come.
the vn:s DO NOT have 3D rendering. it's all pictures, sprites or videos. 2D from front to back.
that's the beauty of it. it is supposed to be dead simple.
yes, you can do more complex things with it, but its very idea is to give devs an easy and simple platform.

you could teach a monkey to make a vn on it. there is just no excuses for this never ending delay, other than gross incompetance in leadership and lack of effort, if there indeed ever really was a team.

ANYTHING at this point, short of an actual release, is complete and utter bullshit.

 

[Neobrakeon]

The money is down to 3.2k
Anyone want to guess when it will go under 3k?

 

[Armnorn]

And it has been another 10 days without any gitlab updates. Seems like Latecomer is "very busy with Month 1"

 

[opiex942]

And it has been another 10 days without any gitlab updates. Seems like Latecomer is "very busy with Month 1"

No, see, a while back Latecomer noticed some irregularities with the Github source code and rather than wait for them to become a problem further down the line, he has decided to rewrite the source code for it, thus setting down a solid foundation on which gitlab notifications can be delivered further down the line.

On a more serious note, this is what happens when you give someone an ultimatum and then proceed to waffle on it. Because at this point, what is BC going to do to Latecomer if he takes ages(or stops working entirely) to finish the merger? Threaten him harder? Send angry .gifs at him in discord? Give him another ultimatum?

 

[Mahony]

No, see, a while back Latecomer noticed some irregularities with the Github source code and rather than wait for them to become a problem further down the line, he has decided to rewrite the source code for it, thus setting down a solid foundation on which gitlab notifications can be delivered further down the line.

On a more serious note, this is what happens when you give someone an ultimatum and then proceed to waffle on it. Because at this point, what is BC going to do to Latecomer if he takes ages(or stops working entirely) to finish the merger? Threaten him harder? Send angry .gifs at him in discord? Give him another ultimatum?

You must be registered to see the links

 

[rostabu]

follow the money, if latecomer is making money with the merge cut it off till he's done then give him all in bonus form

 

[opiex942]

follow the money, if latecomer is making money with the merge cut it off till he's done then give him all in bonus form

That would work if ES was Latecomer's main source of income. It isn't. That conversation would go something along the lines of:
BC: I'm going to stop paying you until the merge is done!!11!
LC: Ok, cool, I'm just gonna stop working on it altoghether.

But in german.

 

[Soulonus]

That would work if ES was Latecomer's main source of income. It isn't. That conversation would go something along the lines of:
BC: I'm going to stop paying you until the merge is done!!11!
LC: Ok, cool, I'm just gonna stop working on it altoghether.

But in german.

Then it could be handed over to someone else who's willing to finish it on a contract basis instead of rolling pay.

 

[opiex942]

Then it could be handed over to someone else who's willing to finish it on a contract basis instead of rolling pay.

That's not happening. If it didn't happen when he was out for months, or when the project went over deadline by a whole ass year or when he was literally told "finish this by the end of the year or you're out"; it's not happening.

Just accept that the main content Ecchi Sensei will provide for the forseeable future is drama relating to the process of development.

 

[Raxac]

Then it could be handed over to someone else who's willing to finish it on a contract basis instead of rolling pay.

Yeah Bluecat could do that, but he didn't, so can u sum this up by yourself?
I don't understand why there are still ppl trying to put the blame on someone else, there is only one person responsible for the current state of this game, and it's Bluecat himself.

 

[Dukez]

Don't worry guys, I'm sure we'll get an update soon in February March.

Perhaps BlueCat will surprise us with the full release of the merger, no alpha or beta's required!