Dexhellhound

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Apr 18, 2018
63
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the negitive comments are giving me cyberpunk we want it released now flash backs even back then i said if this game is released as a buggy mess i am blaming the people complaing for puting that pressure on every one to release an unfishied game and i am saying the same thing about futrue fragments if this dosent do well and is a buggy mess then i am blaming the impatient cry babies
 
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HentaiWriter

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Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
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I think it's clear to see that the team cares about quality, and I have no doubts that when the game releases it will be a very great game... I am looking forward to trying out the game, once it is available to us. Just wanted to get that out there, to let you know that's it not all negative on this site, and that there are people looking forward to the game here...
Also chiming in to say that not everyone is angry and we're still looking forward to this... I think as a whole, the portion of fans patiently waiting don't feel the need to write as many posts, so don't be dissuaded by a vocal minority... Passionate devs make the best games, so just continue with that mentality and we'll be here for when the game releases. It's hard not to be excited now that we're in the endgame.
True, it's amazing how HW team keeps going on without going full on yandere dev. I mean, they are devs, they could easily work a corpie job, get money fuck bitches... except for the art guys, but damn those people really like what they do. Unmatching coom drive. Not just that but they are willing to do it again making other games... It will be my first hgame that I'll pay
Really appreciated with all the kind words; I know it's not all negativity here, of course, and I'm still happy to reply to critique and feedback and such, people don't have to universally like the game for me to want to reply. It's just yeah, you know what I mean with the posts that are just pure either troll/bad faith actor stuff.

We do really have plans for a lot more games after this, all interconnected in the same universe, different genres, different aesthetics, etc.

We want to keep making games for a long time, but for future games to take far less time to be complete, without sacrificing quality of content (or content density, for the most part). I think a lot of the experience we got with this game will help with all of those goals too, but I don't think we'll be mistake-free, either. (Definitely no more release dates though!)

I love when criticism is called "hater" now an objective opinion is not fashionable.
Critique is fine. Mindlessly spamming the same exact complaints about things that don't actually exist or haven't happened or are pure subjectiveness yet are presented as objectiveness, however, that's not critique, especially when it gets to name-calling and insulting people on the team.

the negitive comments are giving me cyberpunk we want it released now flash backs even back then i said if this game is released as a buggy mess i am blaming the people complaing for puting that pressure on every one to release an unfishied game and i am saying the same thing about futrue fragments if this dosent do well and is a buggy mess then i am blaming the impatient cry babies
Don't worry, it won't be released a buggy mess, we'll make sure of that.
 
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Fruuu

New Member
Mar 22, 2019
2
8
I'm usually just a random lurker when browsing the net, but finally I decided to step in.
HentaiWriter I absolutely adore your way of interacting with the community and not leaving any question, suggestion or even accusation unanswered. I am in IT myself (not porn though) and aside of fully understanding what you're going through with funding, releases and the review process (once I wrestled with Apple for a whole month to get my app published, because they decided that it's violating terms), usually in my projects, the contact with the community was done by some random Rebecca, who didn't fully understand anyone or anything involved - the community, the devs, the plans nor the actual long term goal. And usually the money questions were ignored, or answered with a complete lie.

I really value that you keep the comms clean and actually say clearly how Steam works and don't hide the taboo topic of money. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but as you stated, this is your full time job + investment and you need to get some ROI. After the first game, you need some additional money to get funds for the next project as well. I was quite often amazed at how aggressive some people can be to portray you living a lavish life paid by patreons while not delivering the game, or expecting a buggy game in the end.

So that's it. I hope this made your day better. I appreciate your hard work.
I can't wait for the game. Good luck!
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
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Not even AAA games take this long to release.
We're at 7 years and 9 months with 3 people on the core team and 2 audio people.
That's one artist, one programmer, and one writer/marketer/level designer on the core team, and one audio/sfx engineer and one musician.

Here's some AAA games, many with 50-100+ people working on them, that took longer than us or the same as us to release;

Galleon - 7 years
Starcraft II - 7 years
L.A. Noire - 7 years
Overwatch - 8 years
Spore - 8 Years
Too Human - 9 Years
The Last Guardian - 9 Years
Team Fortress 2 - 9 years
Final Fantasy XV - 10 years
Star Citizen - 10 years (still hasn't came out)
Prey (2017) - 11 years
Diablo III - 11 years
Mother III - 12 years
Duke Nukem Forever - 15 years
Metroid Dread - 16 years

Additionally, there's a good chunk of indie games that've taken longer than us (or are still in development), like Cube World (8 years), Dwarf Fortress (20 years), and Unreal World (26 years).

Game development takes time, especially games with a lot of content in them, and with very, very small teams.

So that's it. I hope this made your day better. I appreciate your hard work.
I can't wait for the game. Good luck!
It did man, thanks a lot; really appreciated and makes us feel we're on the right track with messages like this.
I know that in itself sounds like corporate speak or something fake, but it really is the truth.
 
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HardcoreCuddler

Engaged Member
Aug 4, 2020
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Not even AAA games take this long to release.
Tell me you're ignorant towards development times without telling me you're ignorant towards development times:

MF, I can barely list ANY games that took less than 5 years to release from inception and aren't some simple 2d arcade games
 

ryukotan

New Member
Feb 18, 2019
6
54
Tell me you're ignorant towards development times without telling me you're ignorant towards development times:

MF, I can barely list ANY games that took less than 5 years to release from inception and aren't some simple 2d arcade games
using the "tell me you're x" meme here is kind of ironic. here's a few notable games that fit that criteria

control(2016-2019, 3 years)
deus ex(1997-2000, 3 years)
deus ex: human revolution(2007-2011, 4 years)
dead space(2006-2008, 2 years)
doom(1992-1993, 1 year)
dark souls(2009-2011, 2 years)
disco elysium(2016-2019, 3 years)
hades(2017-2018(early access)-2020(full release), 3 years)
titanfall 2(2014-2016, 2 years)
witcher 3: wild hunt(2011-2015, 4 years)

i tried to grab a selection across multiple genres and time periods to better illustrate the point

this isn't even naming the many series that have games come out on a regular basis(atelier, call of duty, tales of, yakuza) that typically have 2 or 4 year dev cycles
 

V0RPAL1N

Newbie
Sep 29, 2020
31
33
We're at 7 years and 9 months with 3 people on the core team and 2 audio people.
That's one artist, one programmer, and one writer/marketer/level designer on the core team, and one audio/sfx engineer and one musician.

Here's some AAA games, many with 50-100+ people working on them, that took longer than us or the same as us to release;

Galleon - 7 years
Starcraft II - 7 years
L.A. Noire - 7 years
Overwatch - 8 years
Spore - 8 Years
Too Human - 9 Years
The Last Guardian - 9 Years
Team Fortress 2 - 9 years
Final Fantasy XV - 10 years
Star Citizen - 10 years (still hasn't came out)
Prey (2017) - 11 years
Diablo III - 11 years
Mother III - 12 years
Duke Nukem Forever - 15 years
Metroid Dread - 16 years

Additionally, there's a good chunk of indie games that've taken longer than us (or are still in development), like Cube World (8 years), Dwarf Fortress (20 years), and Unreal World (26 years).

Game development takes time, especially games with a lot of content in them, and with very, very small teams.



It did man, thanks a lot; really appreciated and makes us feel we're on the right track with messages like this.
I know that in itself sounds like corporate speak or something fake, but it really is the truth.
Highly expecting the release date for your game, and thanks for making me feel old with all those titles. God Metroid Dread was 16 years... Keep doing good work HW, we believe in you.
 

badjie

New Member
Jun 3, 2017
5
14
Game looks really good and I will buy it when it drops on steam. But when your talking about 16+ hours workdays for 7 days a week? That´s not even going to be efficient. No human can possible work that much and get good results, you should really rethink that and try to have a healthy approach towards work.
 
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FutureHUD

Newbie
May 5, 2021
20
41
I don't post much but there's a lot of negativity in the past few pages I'm reading over... So I thought I'd put my own thoughts forward.

Release it when you are ready. It's not like you don't want to release it and keep from earning the money you'd get from a Steam release. That would be silly. I'm sure you're doing what you can, and you're clearly passionate about your project.

The demos are great so far. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to the full release on Steam.

If there's cut content (due to Steam for example), I am hopeful it will be released elsewhere assuming it's not too terribly difficult to do (DLC or Patch?). You may have already addressed this.

No reason to pander to the frustrated and impatient on this forum, or really elsewhere. If one is upset and already providing you financial support through something like Patreon, they are always welcome to withdraw their pledge.
you need to understand that many people who are negatively vocal right now are people who have been waiting years and spent money on a project that constantly gets delayed. I have spent 100$ + on support for this game(i have stopped by now as you say, but it won't change that i have already effectively wasted money), and other than demos (that are free) i got nothing else but constant delays everytime we got close to the release. Just this year alone we have had 5 delays.

Understand this, this hole is one that HentaiWriter and their team dug themselves. They made a project well beyond their experience to handle and it shows in how poor the management has been.

I'm still interested in the game and will likely still buy it for this november release.

But if it doesn't release but gets delayed again, i'm not going to buy it ever, in fact i'm quitting all support possible. this last stretch is the last straw.

So here i hope for the best.
 
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FutureHUD

Newbie
May 5, 2021
20
41
Also i want to temper people's expectations here. People fawing over the word count of 300.000 need to realize this: this number is nothing to an rpg. To put into perspective:

Witcher 3- 450.000
Fallout: New vegas - 1 million
Disco elysium- 1 million
Planetscape: torment - 850.000
Dragon age 1 - 760.000
Skyrim - 1 million
Original sin 2 - 1 million

Don't be impressed by the word count, be impressed that they as a 3 man team will try to connect it together. The first mass effect had 300.000 words too, which was overseen by 130 people to make sure everything flows together. So we still have potential for a good rpg here.

This was just for the sceptics and the yes men
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
you need to understand that many people who are negatively vocal right now are people who have been waiting years and spent money on a project that constantly gets delayed. I have spent 100$ + on support for this game(i have stopped by now as you say, but it won't change that i have already effectively wasted money)
If you feel your money's been wasted, you can ask for a full refund, full stop. So can anyone else. People literally cannot complain about "their money being wasted" or "being scammed out of money" because we straight up give full refunds.

Understand this, this hole is one that HentaiWriter and their team dug themselves. They made a project well beyond their experience to handle and it shows in how poor the management has been.
TBH, I have yet to see a single person in this thread complaining about "poor management" actually understand what that term means.

There is no manager in the world that could have made the game come out faster than it has, without cutting even more content or releasing the game incomplete. And as we refuse to cut anymore content than we already have, and we refuse to release the game incomplete, it's not poor management, it's sticking to our guns to deliver what we promised, as best as we're able.

Modern gaming has unfortunately created a mentality of "releasing games as soon as possible and then finishing them over the next few years", which is both terrible for the consumer and only realistically possible with AAA games that have $250,000,000+ marketing budget (not an exaggeration) to remind consumers 5 years down the road that the game is NOW finally complete.

I'm still interested in the game and will likely still buy it for this november release.
If you backed us for more than $20, why would you buy it? You've already got a copy coming.

Also i want to temper people's expectations here. People fawing over the word count of 300.000 need to realize this: this number is nothing to an rpg. To put into perspective:

Witcher 3- 450.000
Fallout: New vegas - 1 million
Disco elysium- 1 million
Planetscape: torment - 850.000
Dragon age 1 - 760.000
Skyrim - 1 million
Original sin 2 - 1 million

Don't be impressed by the word count, be impressed that they as a 3 man team will try to connect it together. The first mass effect had 300.000 words too, which was overseen by 130 people to make sure everything flows together. So we still have potential for a good rpg here.
Not personally attacking you with this; just giving more clarity to the realism of this list and how things are skewed on it and how people might also have a skewed perspective on the workload for our game, and myself specifically.

I do appreciate that you're still looking forward to the game, but to clear up the perspective here in terms of workload;

First off, every game on that list had a lot of writers.

- Witcher 3 - Already based off of an existing book series which saves a TON of time with worldbuilding and design and backstories, and yet still had 15 writers
- Fallout: New Vegas - 8 writers
- Disco Elysium - 8 writers
- Planetscape: Torment - Can't find an exact count, but again used existing materials, so wasn't from scratch
- Dragon Age 1 - Used existing materials, 8 writers
- Skyrim - 8 writers
- Original Sin 2 - 6 writers

So with the exception of Planetscape, let's see the actual average numbers for words per writer;

Witcher 3 - 30,000 words per person
Fallout: New vegas - 125,000 words per person
Disco elysium - 125,000 words per person
Dragon age 1 - 95,000 words per person
Skyrim - 125,000 words per person
Original sin 2 - 166,666 words per person

So going by that list, I still singlehandedly did more than double the writing than any single given writer on any of those six games, as I'm the only writer/editor/etc. for the game.

------

Additionally, all they had to do was write. I had to do the additional tasks during development, by myself, alongside writing;

- Managing the main and extended teams
- Making the map designs & layouts
- Setting up & plugging in events for cutscenes, choosing how to use audio/visual effects, etc.
- Gameplay continuity and Story continuity
- Connecting all the cutscenes together & coming up with what events should get Ideals
- Making individual, tailored design documents for assets from the artist, programmer, audio engineer, musician, voice actors, and translators
- Processing, separating, and editing the best takes of the voicework from voice actors, line by line
- Answering questions and organizing poll data for feedback
- Making visual effects from time to time
- Patreon reward updates & organization of backer reward requests
- Marketing & networking & PR across many, many sites and platforms and companies
- Paying out everyone
- Checking up on & researching legal matters and hiring people for that, dealing with contracts with companies

And of course, I share equal responsibility on game design with Triangulate (artist) and Frouge (programmer), and up until the last two years or so, all bugtesting was done by us three as well.

On most AAA games, each of these lines would be handled by a different person, if not multiple people.
So I would say that I'm handling a lot compared to what would usually be asked of a single person on an AAA game.

Note, of course, that I'm not saying that doing all of this or writing as much as I did by myself = I'm a better writer/game dev/etc. than the games you listed; I'm just listing pure numbers/workloads.
 
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TheRealSomeone92

Active Member
Apr 15, 2019
563
319
My dilemma is that from what I have seen there is little me in terms of H content, but I would really like to see a game like FF with a male PC and female NPCs.
But with you guys having 9-5 office jobs I won't see it before 2033... XD
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
My dilemma is that from what I have seen there is little me in terms of H content, but I would really like to see a game like FF with a male PC and female NPCs.
But with you guys having 9-5 office jobs I won't see it before 2033... XD
Oh no, we work full time on our games, but we won't be doing platformers for a long while after Future Fragments, as we want each new game to be a different genre/aesthetic/mechanics etc.

However, if you want a game like ours with malePC and female NPCs;
https://f95zone.to/threads/book-of-korvald-v0-5-21-punching-donut.51901/

Our next game (Eroding Ego) will also be malePC with female NPCs, but it'll be a hybrid of an adventure game, point n' click, visual novel, and arena battler, so no platforming there.
 

FutureHUD

Newbie
May 5, 2021
20
41
If you feel your money's been wasted, you can ask for a full refund, full stop. So can anyone else. People literally cannot complain about "their money being wasted" or "being scammed out of money" because we straight up give full refunds.
First time i have heard of this. but it doesn¨t matter because....

If you backed us for more than $20, why would you buy it? You've already got a copy coming.
yeah, i forgot that i pledged that tier back then, i retract. May aswell stick with it to the end because my heart can't take taking money from someone in debt.

There is no manager in the world that could have made the game come out faster than it has, without cutting even more content or releasing the game incomplete. And as we refuse to cut anymore content than we already have, and we refuse to release the game incomplete, it's not poor management, it's sticking to our guns to deliver what we promised, as best as we're able.
we are seeing poor management now by you taking time writing out these detailed replies rather than working on the game. And perhaps not faster, but without constant delays.

Modern gaming has unfortunately created a mentality of "releasing games as soon as possible and then finishing them over the next few years", which is both terrible for the consumer and only realistically possible with AAA games that have $250,000,000+ marketing budget (not an exaggeration) to remind consumers 5 years down the road that the game is NOW finally complete.
thing is, those companies are held by the balls by shareholders and general bureaucracy who want games out on this time.

You are not bound by bureaucracy.

No one is forcing you to a certain deadline. You're self-publishing, you set your own deadline, and considering how much work there still was to do, i'm still wondering how you ever thought you could get them out by that time?

Please understand that it is not so much that it's taking so long, it's the constant deadlines that aren't met, time after time.

Which could have been prevented if you had set an Indefinite delay on the first one while still providing these updates.

Not personally attacking you with this; just giving more clarity to the realism of this list and how things are skewed on it and how people might also have a skewed perspective on the workload for our game, and myself specifically.
you misunderstand me. This wasn't to discredit your work. This was to temper the expectations of people i have seen that are becoming way too hyped at the word count, that unfortunately isn't a lot. ME can be finished in a day, if you ignore side content, and your work is about the same length. And i bet most of those words are for those 80 endings you're making.

it's impressive given your already insane workload, but let's not pretend you are writing a novel and not a script for a visual medium.

my point remains that the actual word count is not impressive for an rpg. Your workload, is impressive.

Additionally, all they had to do was write. I had to do the additional tasks during development, by myself, alongside writing;
Maybe you should focus on those then.

No matter how you scratch it, the current discourse here is one of your own making.
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
First time i have heard of this. but it doesn¨t matter because....
TBH, not sure how, since I broadcast the refund thing all the time here and other places, but at least I'm glad you know about it now.

we are seeing poor management now by you taking time writing out these detailed replies rather than working on the game. And perhaps not faster, but without constant delays.
I make it a rule to always multi-task if possible; I only take a few minutes to write these replies, and when I do so, I do it while something else is going on that would prevent me from writing/doing other focused work.

ex. important phone calls, or on the toilet, or about to go to sleep, things where it would be too much of a distraction to focus on writing and maintaining story continuity and other things that require a lot of brain power, but writing a reply in a forum is a lot easier than doing writing for the game, so I can do both things at once.

The reply I initially wrote to you, for the record, took 12 minutes.

The delays, all of them, have been entirely because of a specific cycle;

- go to implement thing we've been planning to implement for years, estimate it will take 2 weeks to implement
- spend 2 weeks implementing it
- realize that it's not fun / is severely broken / has other issues
- discuss how to rework it or if we can afford to scrap it altogether without ruining the game
- either rework it or scrap it and adjust the rest of the game as such
- thing that was supposed to take 2 weeks has now taken a month
- repeat with half of the content in the game

We don't want to just slap something in and go "well, it's not fun, but hey, need to get it out ASAP at all costs, let's just leave this un-fun thing in there" like many companies and games do. Think of your favorite video game; can you think of portions that are just boring, poorly designed, unfair, unfun, etc.? That's the result of those companies just drilling content out and not going back to refine it or adjust it.

We don't want to have that in our games. It doesn't mean our game will BE constantly fun to everyone, but from our perspective, there are no "weak spots" in the game like that thanks to going back and refining/reworking things to make sure it works as intended/is fun.

No one is forcing you to a certain deadline. You're self-publishing, you set your own deadline, and considering how much work there still was to do, i'm still wondering how you ever thought you could get them out by that time?
See the above cycle of events for the answer to that one.
We are the ones forcing ourselves to release by a certain deadline, because we are both financially bound and time bound, in that we have a zillion games we want to make and we don't want to spend our entire lives on just one game.

Please understand that it is not so much that it's taking so long, it's the constant deadlines that aren't met, time after time.
I do understand this, and have understood it for some time, which is why we're not going to have release dates for future games, ever.

But for Future Fragments, if we just suddenly said "ok, no release date" for it this close to the end, people would surely take that as a sign of "welp, it's never coming out, will be milked until 2050" etc.

you misunderstand me. This wasn't to discredit your work. This was to temper the expectations of people i have seen that are becoming way too hyped at the word count, that unfortunately isn't a lot. ME can be finished in a day, if you ignore side content, and your work is about the same length. And i bet most of those words are for those 80 endings you're making.
I do understand that, and that's why I said I wasn't harping on you specifically, but clarifying why those people were surprised at it, per it being done by one person who's also doing 20 other things and with no other help etc.

And no, the 21 true endings are only about 1,500 words each, with the 20 other secret endings being about a fourth of that each. The cutscenes make up the massive majority of words.

Just to clarify how the cutscenes work;

databanks.png

Here's a bunch of databanks, with the databank stories they're linked to (the third column) and cutscenes that they change the events of (the fourth column). There's 157 databanks, and 221 cutscenes.

Interacting with cutscenes or databanks will change future events/future story choices and possibilities when interacting with characters as well as core storyline cutscenes.

Who you kill and who you don't kill affects this too, as well as your 8 "Ideal" variables, which can further open up/lock out choices or events in cutscenes.

Even some other variables like how many times you've respawned, how many enemies total you've killed, how many Fragments you have, how long you've spent in a level, how many maps you've cleared, or even how many times you've pressed the down button/ducked can affect scenes.

Here's the "base" collection of all the interactions between cutscenes and databanks, although by now, there's probably double the connections;

npc_databank_cutscene_links.png

The numbers and letters here correspond to the cutscene/databank number, and if it's a cutscene or databank, as well as what level it's on.

For example, four rows down, and five columns to the right, you can see;
86d(fi) - 94d(fi) - 171c(end) - 138c(ea)
This means that databank 86 and 94 in Fire, if you read those, will change the events of both cutscene 171 in The End and cutscene 183 in Earth, and that those two cutscenes will also be affected by choices made in each cutscene (so if you interact with #171 first, instead of #138 first, or vice versa, and whether you kill them, what your ideals were, etc.)

On top of that, this is just the NPCs; this isn't counting events with Faye, Vie, or solo scenes, end path scenes, game over CGs, and a lot of other things.

it's impressive given your already insane workload, but let's not pretend you are writing a novel and not a script for a visual medium.
Yes, it is a visual medium, which means I don't have to describe things around the characters in most cases. That still doesn't make it any less or any more worthy writing-wise. (Also, according to google, the average novel is 90,000 words, with big stories being 125,000+ words. Even War and Peace is 580,000 words, so I'm not sure why the novel vs game script comparison.)

Maybe you should focus on those then.
No matter how you scratch it, the current discourse here is one of your own making.
How can I focus on them any more than I already have been? I'm not sure what you mean by that statement.
 
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huskarl0

New Member
Oct 10, 2019
1
0
I donated a total of $20 via patreon forever ago. How will we be receiving Steam codes when it finally releases? Sorry if this has been asked before.
 
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