Rosen King

Engaged Member
May 29, 2019
2,203
1,702
Quick bug report: The "perform action" button in the new trance menu can be used after waking the knight up from trance.

I'm also really not a fan of anything about the redesigned trance menu, but I'm way too tired to get into details about that now.


Speaking of which... Where exactly is the new scene? Since it's kind of the only new bit of content this update, I'd like to rush to it and then get to bed, but I don't know exactly where I should be rushing. Is it just reaching floor X or what?
 

NRFB

Hi (。・ω・)ノ゙
Game Developer
Feb 14, 2020
308
675
Game is uploading to the proper sites and whatnot. It's up on itch, and I'm working on the modding guide as well.

Quick bug report: The "perform action" button in the new trance menu can be used after waking the knight up from trance.
Very strange. I thought I fixed that.


Speaking of which... Where exactly is the new scene? Since it's kind of the only new bit of content this update, I'd like to rush to it and then get to bed, but I don't know exactly where I should be rushing. Is it just reaching floor X or what?
Just get far enough along, yes.
 

Rosen King

Engaged Member
May 29, 2019
2,203
1,702
Um, okay, very gamebreaking bug going on here. I made it to Floor 10 and am *consistently* crashing within the first few turns. Still too tired to do proper testing, but it doesn't seem to be tied to any particular knight, as I've tried leaving each of them to sit at the campsite while a single other one goes out to fight. Two things in particular stand out: First the fact that I just saw the new event on the previous floor for the first time, but also I just acquired the Easy curse for the first time. I'm not sure how the latter would cause crashes while Raine is sitting back at camp, but yeah. I'd do more testing, but... maybe you'll be able to easily reproduce and identify this while I'm sleeping.

In case it's not easy to reproduce, I do have a copy of my save data that drops you off right where the issue's happening.
 

NRFB

Hi (。・ω・)ノ゙
Game Developer
Feb 14, 2020
308
675
Um, okay, very gamebreaking bug going on here. I made it to Floor 10 and am *consistently* crashing within the first few turns. Still too tired to do proper testing, but it doesn't seem to be tied to any particular knight, as I've tried leaving each of them to sit at the campsite while a single other one goes out to fight. Two things in particular stand out: First the fact that I just saw the new event on the previous floor for the first time, but also I just acquired the Easy curse for the first time. I'm not sure how the latter would cause crashes while Raine is sitting back at camp, but yeah. I'd do more testing, but... maybe you'll be able to easily reproduce and identify this while I'm sleeping.
It does indeed appear to be the Easy curse. It's crashing due to some system change stuff that wasn't an issue before. I'll either need to upload a new version or figure out a way to make a mod that fixes it (might be tricky to do that due to the exact nature of how the crash is occurring).
Basically there was a change to how comparisons of variables are evaluated, which is causing this check specifically to hit a null reference when someone takes lust damage. No, it doesn't have to be the character who HAS the curse. Not exactly playable in this state, but I guess I didn't run into it myself because it's not an... EASY curse to get :4Head:
 

grahegri

sake, birds, torrents
Donor
Feb 23, 2023
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GoingDeeper-A11
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Rosen King

Engaged Member
May 29, 2019
2,203
1,702
I'll either need to upload a new version or figure out a way to make a mod that fixes it (might be tricky to do that due to the exact nature of how the crash is occurring).
You can't load mods mid-run, though, can you? I'd like to finally get the chance to research this curse... Then again, a full fix might require a restart anyway.

...Well that made for an interesting challenge. Taking a knight to the Witch, hoping she had the curse reveal up for sale, then making a beeline for the floor exit without taking a single point of lust damage on any character. I didn't think it would be easy, but it was even tougher than I thought, especially since all my knights were loaded with curses and would take lust damage from injury damage or defeating enemies.

...But I'm still gonna need to get the curse again after the fix if I want to see what the Charmed status even does. (It's new, right? I don't recall it being elsewhere and my notes say there's still one status ailment I haven't seen from last update.)


So, the new desire manipulation screen... Despite taking fewer button presses to raise or lower any given desire, it actually feels *more* troublesome to actually do any of it. I think the main issue is how spread apart every button is across the whole thing, whereas before you had everything clickable in a small section while the rest of the screen was for showing stats and stuff. Instead of quickly picking from a list, you've gotta click the trance button up top, move to the bottom to hunt down the particular desire you want to manipulate, then go above or below that for the button you want to click. And the curse list takes several extra clicks to get to the curse you want (with no quick way to see the full list of curses), but still requires you to go up to the top of the screen to hit the Curse Up/Down buttons. Keeping all the relevant buttons closer together goes a long way, and I found the old version easy to use for that reason.

There's also just the fact that I tend to prefer things in list format, but... I don't know if that's a me thing? I mean, games keep replacing lists with and I can't for the life of me figure out *why*. [Rant removed.]

...Sorry, getting off track. I suppose I might as well move on to the one bit of noteworthy content in this update:

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LVNCutiePie

New Member
Nov 1, 2021
10
52
I noticed modding support was added. As such, I would like to suggest a discord channel (for example) be created and shared in the main page, to create a centralized place where the modding community can share and discuss their creations. I am not a modder, but if there are modders, I would like for their creations to not be lost or unfindable in an unknown page in this sea we call a forum. <3
 

Rosen King

Engaged Member
May 29, 2019
2,203
1,702
I noticed modding support was added. As such, I would like to suggest a discord channel (for example) be created and shared in the main page, to create a centralized place where the modding community can share and discuss their creations. I am not a modder, but if there are modders, I would like for their creations to not be lost or unfindable in an unknown page in this sea we call a forum. <3
There's already a Discord linked in the first post. I'm sure it has a channel for mods now.
 

tak51

Newbie
Dec 17, 2017
48
20
Hi, I did a playthgough recently where I focused on getting more skills at each floors because except some curses (like saboteur/paranoia/vaiglory who prevent to stay with the other knights), most aren't annoying and are kinda weak.
Although, more advanced skills seems to have stats requirement (25+ on one stat for exemple, which is quite high), so I kinda struggle to know if it's better to upgrade stats with floors and skills mostly with scrolls.
Could someone tip me on that part of the game please?
 
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RagueltheUFO

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
1,213
898
Has anyone gotten the crash where if you try to update your magic, the game just closes the window?

EDIT: I'm getting a crash trying to do anything after leaving the dungeon. I tried imprinting Lucille and the game crashed. I invited her to the tent and when I finished, game crashed. :/
 

Privitarium

Newbie
Oct 25, 2017
74
28
Hi, I did a playthgough recently where I focused on getting more skills at each floors because except some curses (like saboteur/paranoia/vaiglory who prevent to stay with the other knights), most aren't annoying and are kinda weak.
Although, more advanced skills seems to have stats requirement (25+ on one stat for exemple, which is quite high), so I kinda struggle to know if it's better to upgrade stats with floors and skills mostly with scrolls.
Could someone tip me on that part of the game please?
I've yet to lose after over a dozen runs, so this method works so far: hit the first soft cap for each knight's three highest stats (ie. when it costs 2 stat points to upgrade one stat, you can stop) ASAP. But on floor 3 or 4, take your first curse to act as a buffer against Corruption Waves. As you've noticed, most curses don't hurt too much so the first curse helps offset temp. Corr that Corruption Waves would otherwise give you, stopping Corruption from getting out of hand early on. Taking a bunch of curses early often bogs you down, as the number of skills you get per floor won't keep up with the compounding effects of the curses.

This method is for completing floors. If you want to deliberately get hit by creatures/traps and collect specific events in the dungeon, you can still use this method but it takes a lot of time manually instructing a knight to exit and enter a trap/monster room to let it hit them over and over (because otherwise the knights usually destroy everything).

Edit: I should add that, I focus on upping maxing each knight's "primary" offensive working stat and their relevant skills first. So Strength for Raine, Reflexes (with Backstab) for Elli, and Willpower (with Smite and Spellsword) for Lucette.
 
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herbz

Member
Apr 30, 2018
274
350
I get a crash when I add a Favor Mantra to Lucette. I suspect its because she already has a Favor mantra applied. I'm also getting a crash when 8 turns is over, which coincides with when a mantra ends.
 
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NRFB

Hi (。・ω・)ノ゙
Game Developer
Feb 14, 2020
308
675
The crashing issue is more widespread than initially thought. Basically I changed some internals for (among other things) doing comparisons between variables. There are miscellaneous cases where requirements are checking comparisons and looking at places that end up null. This isn't something that I can fix with a mod, so I'll be putting up a new version soon. I BELIEVE I have it fixed on my side, but I'm going to spend another day (probably) double checking things.

You can't load mods mid-run, though, can you? I'd like to finally get the chance to research this curse... Then again, a full fix might require a restart anyway.
I mean, in the same way that nothing actually STOPS you from changing save versions mid-run, nothing actually STOPS you from changing your mod list mid-run either. The game will throw a warning at you before loading, but it won't stop you. Depending on what the mods actually do, it may or may not break anything, but in general I'm always going to err on the side of saying not to do it.
As an aside, this made me realize that I literally forgot to add the code to update the game's save file to say it is version A11 rather than A10, but nothing actually changed in the save file format that needs changed between them so it doesn't matter.

...Well that made for an interesting challenge.
Kinda surprised you managed it at all.

(It's new, right? I don't recall it being elsewhere and my notes say there's still one status ailment I haven't seen from last update.)
It was new in alpha-10, but you can get it from one source other than that curse.

So, the new desire manipulation screen... Despite taking fewer button presses to raise or lower any given desire, it actually feels *more* troublesome to actually do any of it. I think the main issue is how spread apart every button is across the whole thing, whereas before you had everything clickable in a small section while the rest of the screen was for showing stats and stuff. Instead of quickly picking from a list, you've gotta click the trance button up top, move to the bottom to hunt down the particular desire you want to manipulate, then go above or below that for the button you want to click. And the curse list takes several extra clicks to get to the curse you want (with no quick way to see the full list of curses), but still requires you to go up to the top of the screen to hit the Curse Up/Down buttons. Keeping all the relevant buttons closer together goes a long way, and I found the old version easy to use for that reason.
Wish I got more feedback like this. Good stuff. I'll probably iterate on it some more, though honestly it sounds like I could just move the row of buttons below the curse box area and it would alleviate what you're saying a bit.

(Speaking of which, should we expect the conclusion to the Experiments update to come before any of the others, or was the vote just on who gets their Part 1 first?)
I should probably figure this out, huh?

I've yet to lose after over a dozen runs, so this method works so far: hit the first soft cap for each knight's three highest stats (ie. when it costs 2 stat points to upgrade one stat, you can stop) ASAP. But on floor 3 or 4, take your first curse to act as a buffer against Corruption Waves. As you've noticed, most curses don't hurt too much so the first curse helps offset temp. Corr that Corruption Waves would otherwise give you, stopping Corruption from getting out of hand early on. Taking a bunch of curses early often bogs you down, as the number of skills you get per floor won't keep up with the compounding effects of the curses.

This method is for completing floors. If you want to deliberately get hit by creatures/traps and collect specific events in the dungeon, you can still use this method but it takes a lot of time manually instructing a knight to exit and enter a trap/monster room to let it hit them over and over (because otherwise the knights usually destroy everything).
My perspective is way off from the normal way of playing for a lot of reasons, but when I play I sorta kinda go with a pretty similar strategy to this. In general, I think if you CAN get a relatively cheap stat point at the end of a floor, you should. It's less exciting than a skill point, but more impactful in the long run.

When you think about the math, a single point of permanent corruption only subtracts 0.8% of a knight's vitality stat. All knights start with 12 Vitality, so a single point of corruption is pretty close to (but not exactly) a 1% stat loss, while increasing that same stat by 1 is close to (but not exactly) an 8% stat gain. This is really over-simplified and there's also diminishing returns on stat points, but in general yeah. I generally go with a strat of trying to get stat points when the corruption cost to do so is low, while picking up just enough curses to not take damage from corruption waves.

Of course, I know some people that go max curses for fun, which also ends up being surprisingly viable. Taking as many curses as possible just means that it's unlikely for any of them to reach high ranks from corruption waves, so they don't get in the way too much.

Though I keep saying the game is too easy and yeah this is probably part of why. Thing is that the line between a curse having little impact (greed, sadism, flirty, sloth) and a curse being pretty annoying (paranoia, insatiable, craven) is surprisingly thin.

Edit: I should add that, I focus on upping maxing each knight's "primary" offensive working stat and their relevant skills first. So Strength for Raine, Reflexes (with Backstab) for Elli, and Willpower (with Smite and Spellsword) for Lucette.
Man, spellsword used to be pretty bad but now I've started to feel like it might even be too good. There probably just needs to be more things to spend charge on, since it's really easy to stack it up really high right now.

Curious to see what sort of mods get made.
 

Privitarium

Newbie
Oct 25, 2017
74
28
Wish I got more feedback like this. Good stuff. I'll probably iterate on it some more, though honestly it sounds like I could just move the row of buttons below the curse box area and it would alleviate what you're saying a bit.
While I haven't played the new version, I will add that I think making the curses work in the same way as the desires, that is using the old list form of curses and adding arrow buttons to increase/decrease (on each side or together on one side) might help make it feel more consistent. I especially agree with Rosen saying keeping button layouts compact going a long way.

Also, while I disagree that the separate dropdown list is easier to navigate than going directly to arrow buttons next to the onscreen desire bars, I do agree that the alphabetical ORDER of the list made it easier to find what you're looking for. With that in mind, you could sacrifice the organic order of the desire bars for an alphabetical order. It perhaps doesn't look as pleasing but it would remove a thin layer of learning/memorising where things are.


When you think about the math, a single point of permanent corruption only subtracts 0.8% of a knight's vitality stat. All knights start with 12 Vitality, so a single point of corruption is pretty close to (but not exactly) a 1% stat loss, while increasing that same stat by 1 is close to (but not exactly) an 8% stat gain. This is really over-simplified and there's also diminishing returns on stat points, but in general yeah. I generally go with a strat of trying to get stat points when the corruption cost to do so is low, while picking up just enough curses to not take damage from corruption waves.
I agree with this, but I decided against saying it because it seemed like overkill for the other guy. For the most part, I think of it as: skills tend to work in 10% increments of your working stat but damage (as far as I know) are rounded to the nearest whole number, so if I keep my working stats 30 or higher, I improve every 10% increment from 2s to 3s (excess of 30 is handy as a buffer to prevent it dropping below 30 from exhaustion etc.).


Man, spellsword used to be pretty bad but now I've started to feel like it might even be too good. There probably just needs to be more things to spend charge on, since it's really easy to stack it up really high right now.
As I mentioned before, yeah. There's only two things which spend charge (shield and spellsword) and a myriad ways to accumulate charge. Now that Spellsword consumes 1 charge per battle, you're more likely to accumulate too much charge and punished by a specific trap/monster than ever run out of charge (inadvertently rendering the backup battery skill useless).

Last thing, with the addition of five more floors, I found I actually have an excess of scrolls and each knight able to acquire most of the skill list and rather overpowering. Perhaps the scroll spawn should plateau a bit more or capped entirely? Well, unless higher difficulty stuff is still to be added, but I am getting to the point where I'm finding more scrolls than timeslots to spend them (which also made Too Rich to Die quite strong in lower floors pre-nerf).
 

NRFB

Hi (。・ω・)ノ゙
Game Developer
Feb 14, 2020
308
675
For the most part, I think of it as: skills tend to work in 10% increments of your working stat but damage (as far as I know) are rounded to the nearest whole number,
Actually no, but it probably SHOULD be that way since it would be simpler and never lead to unexpected behavior.

Monsters and traps do accurately track decimal amounts of damage taken, but when their current health is displayed it is always rounded up. A monster COULD have 0.1 health remaining and be displayed as having 1. This means that on occasion the decimal parts of multiple attacks can add up to a total of 1 which causes it to LOOK like you did 1 more damage than expected (expected damage is always rounded down) if you compared the before and after health. This is somewhat obscured by the constant tiny fluctuations in the amount of damage you do because of exhaustion gain but I suppose in very rare cases it could lead to an undesired result?

I don't... Actually remember why I made it this way rather than just dumping the decimals somewhere along the line of damage calculation.

As I mentioned before, yeah. There's only two things which spend charge (shield and spellsword).
And Defibrillate! A spell so specific I doubt anyone actually ever uses it even when they find it!

I'd also say that whenever the move from action based scry cooldown to turn based scry cooldown happened, that was a huge buff to charge as well. The Charged spell's 2 turn cooldown increase is barely anything compared to 2 action cooldown increase (even if neither is that big of a deal).

Last thing, with the addition of five more floors, I found I actually have an excess of scrolls and each knight able to acquire most of the skill list and rather overpowering. Perhaps the scroll spawn should plateau a bit more or capped entirely? Well, unless higher difficulty stuff is still to be added, but I am getting to the point where I'm finding more scrolls than timeslots to spend them (which also made Too Rich to Die quite strong in lower floors pre-nerf).
Lowering the scroll spawn count in later floors is probably worth doing. I do plan to add higher difficulty stuff. My own playtesting has kind of showed me that I've been numerically underestimating how much of a difference having a bunch of skills on a character adds up to. It's hard to model that sort of thing, I just know that threat stats should generally be higher than they are.

I think it's also probably worth it to make more skills that require more work to specialize into as well. For example I'm pretty happy with Stealthy, where it's really easy for Elli to spec into immediately, while Raine takes a little work and getting Lucette to learn it is probably a waste of resources. It becomes a good niche for one character solely because of the Dex requirement to get to it. There aren't a huge amount of skills with stat requirements like that compared to other requirements for some reason.
 

Privitarium

Newbie
Oct 25, 2017
74
28
I don't... Actually remember why I made it this way rather than just dumping the decimals somewhere along the line of damage calculation.
Just in case the granularity came up again would be my guess, given the early stage of game development, before the consideration became lost amongst other concerns.


And Defibrillate! A spell so specific I doubt anyone actually ever uses it even when they find it!
Oh, the spell! Yeah, it's not a contingency you want to spare mana for. Really, Mortify deals with a more common and more dangerous situation, because lust can be hard to get back under control after a full Break on someone vulnerable to Masturbating and no nearby ally (who could also get caught in the vicious cycle without the proper skills).

I'd also say that whenever the move from action based scry cooldown to turn based scry cooldown happened, that was a huge buff to charge as well. The Charged spell's 2 turn cooldown increase is barely anything compared to 2 action cooldown increase (even if neither is that big of a deal).
Not directly related, but in terms of charge using skills, magic in games typically confers versatility rather than consistent damage output (though I'm thinking of TTRPGS specifically). If possible, I'd like to see charge skills which interact with traps or movement or armor or support effects (which fits Lucette), anything OTHER than HP.


Lowering the scroll spawn count in later floors is probably worth doing. I do plan to add higher difficulty stuff. My own playtesting has kind of showed me that I've been numerically underestimating how much of a difference having a bunch of skills on a character adds up to. It's hard to model that sort of thing, I just know that threat stats should generally be higher than they are.

I think it's also probably worth it to make more skills that require more work to specialize into as well. For example I'm pretty happy with Stealthy, where it's really easy for Elli to spec into immediately, while Raine takes a little work and getting Lucette to learn it is probably a waste of resources. It becomes a good niche for one character solely because of the Dex requirement to get to it. There aren't a huge amount of skills with stat requirements like that compared to other requirements for some reason.
Agreed. At the moment, if not for exclusives and Stealthy, it can be easy for knights to all end up having similar loadouts towards the 15th floor ("everyone gets First Strike and Spellsword and Heartbreaker... " etc.). If there were a few more stat requisites (especially if there were ones for each knight's weakest stat they would be unlikely to acquire) it would go a long way to divergent identities/skillsets, moreso than desires which, mucked around by the dungeon so much, can be very random and feel arbitrary.

Edit: on that note, do skills influence desires? I think they do, but if not then that may be an interesting way to make it harder for characters to acquire all the most useful skills from all different "trees" if skills themselves made it easier to meet desire req's for other skills in the same tree and harder for skills of others. At the same time, this could lead to an organic progression of higher tier skills gated behind very high desire req's that having weaker skills of the same tree will make easier to acquire.
 
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