apnea111

Member
Dec 18, 2018
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492
There Is a patern in almost all ptolemy Games or Games He Is involved.

First sex scene between protagonists are always problematic.

I couldnt figure out in this game ptolemys involvement until Last update, which was 100% ptolemys style.

Already told that Last update seemed like a preemptive strike against possible midstory fatique, when most Games loose their dynamic.

Also another patern in ptolemys Games. All of them declined or lost their dynamic at the second half of them.

So i believe it was that concern that dectated that 180 turn in game story at Last update.

But i cant see how introducing borderline ntr content possibly evolving Into borderline rape content, and pausible pausing the couple relationship midstory Is and will be a recipe for success.
 

preglovr12

Salt is a Way of Life
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I don't really agree. Whether or not Klaus groomed and initiated is knowable, even though we're not going to see it because there's no way they can possibly "show" it (thankfully). That's not really my point, though. I would prefer the narrative not be driven by Klaus. I would prefer "but I initiated it"/"fine, but you understand that he still raped you, right?" to be the driving narrative going forward, because it retains Haley's agency while making future developments about examining her mindset and reshaping her thinking rather than Klaus' predation.
That's something else entirely. She's 15, she legally has no agency. Whether or not Haley's the same sexual butterfly at 15 as she is now becomes the question. MC knew her at 15, but the players don't. She could have been a meek little angel with Mommy issues that Klaus took advantage of and turned her into who she is today. I HOPE that's not true because I would peace out but it's possible, and a scary prospect.

I continue to take the "fuck a lot" assertion with a grain of salt.
I remember you saying that, but I also find it strange you're taking what she said about initiating it as gospel and think she's lying about this. Not saying you're wrong, but still, what an odd thing to lie about, especially when she's not trying to anger MC.
 

Segnbora

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2017
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That's something else entirely. She's 15, she legally has no agency.
Right, but I'm not speaking about the legalities. The problem of an adult (and worse, a teacher) having sex with a 15 year old student has a lot of potential solutions, and I hope they choose one that's more interesting and satisfying than the MC throwing a punch — which I still think he's liable to do before they head back to the city, and which is probably the worst of all possible solutions — but the process of undoing the damage with regard to Haley should start with an agreement that, from her perspective, she had agency and free will. Yelling "but you were raped!" at her is going to do more harm than good until she's ready to hear that message; it's going to be even less welcome if the MC's just put Klaus in the hospital or something equally unwise.

Now, I suspect the latter (not necessarily the hospital, but a Klaus-MC confrontation followed by a Haley-MC confrontation) is more or less what's going to happen because it intensifies the conflict that the siblings are going to have to work through, but it's certainly not what's best for Haley.

Whether or not Haley's the same sexual butterfly at 15 as she is now becomes the question. MC knew her at 15, but the players don't.
She was sexually precocious enough to collect money while the MC's ex gave blowjobs for cash, though that was obviously a few years later. Which doesn't necessarily mean she was having sex herself (and in fact I don't think she was; see below), just that she was comfortable being around it.

I remember you saying that, but I also find it strange you're taking what she said about initiating it as gospel and think she's lying about this. Not saying you're wrong, but still, what an odd thing to lie about, especially when she's not trying to anger MC.
It's pure speculation on my part, of course. Here's my reasoning: taking Haley at her word, she's had sex with three people. One is the MC, and that's happened exactly once (or a couple more times if you want to count the other stuff they've done). Though she had a boyfriend at the beginning of this story, they not only never had sex during the course of this story but the narrative went out of its way to highlight that they weren't having sex. And then there's Klaus, which — even in the worst-case scenario — was very unlikely to be a regular, ongoing thing as the risk of discovery skyrockets the longer it goes on. Add to that Haley's revelation that she's wanted her brother since a very young age.

Now, the siblings are at what I believe we're supposed to assume is their first job, which means they're right out of college. Jack isn't mentioned as having gone to high school with them, and since Haley was apparently in her "staring at Mike" phase in high school we can assume that Jack and Haley didn't start to date until at least college. They clearly didn't live together, and Haley didn't hesitate to move away from him at the first opportunity. Over all that time Haley only had sex with an adult who should've been forbidden to her, then no one else during all of high school, followed by a passive, submissive boyfriend who she does nothing but mock and treat poorly during the time of the story, and meanwhile she's in love with and lusting after her brother the entire time.

I think Haley's exaggerating her sexual history because she's trying to present herself as the MC's seducer. His sexual equal. And she has, I'm sure, "had sex" with the MC over and over again...in her mind. But I see absolutely nothing in the relationships that she's had to suggest that there was any passion in them; certainly there was none with Jack, and she doesn't describe sex with Klaus in lustful terms, but rather in terms of comfort and feeling sorry for him. Meanwhile, the MC has been (or can be) having sex with almost every female NPC in the story, while the closest Haley's gotten to sex was her aborted plan to tease Adriana's husband. (Granted, if she'd been sleeping around before now the whining about NTR would've been deafening.) What I think Haley has instead is a damaged sexuality, and she's trying to cover for it (consciously or not) by claiming more experience than she actually has.

As I said, pure speculation on my part. There's no evidence for it in the text (other than what I just ran through) and one very obvious counterargument: Haley's statement itself.
 
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apnea111

Member
Dec 18, 2018
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492
It's planned for 4 to 5.
Cant figure out the masterplan here.

Change the story midways from a romatinc one to drama, dissapointing the story driven fanbase.

And then 4-5 updates to settle the drama, with probably zero or minimum sex content between protagonists (it doesnt seem realistic to fuck their brains out while dealing with all theur issues), dissapointing the fap driven fanbase (the one dreaming about threesome)

If that's going to happen, this game i am afraid Is going to end more or less As "intimate relation. The siblings edition"
 

Ragnar

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Aug 5, 2016
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As I said, pure speculation on my part. There's no evidence for it in the text (other than what I just ran through) and one very obvious counterargument: Haley's statement itself.
Sorry mate but she is experienced, a girl with no sex experience doesn't roleplay bdsm like Haley plus she has been making aggressive advances on the MC, her own brother, since the beginning.
She is just a serial monogamist, but she likes sex a lot no doubt.
 

Walter Victor

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Dec 27, 2017
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If indeed there is a confrontation between Haley and the MC that causes a temporary rift between them (especially if the MC goes after Klaus), there will be no sex at all between them for some time. So what do the developers do then, since this is (supposedly) a porn game? This is where Sandra (or Alana, if you've cut off with Sandra) and Lisa (there is still that avenue to explore) come in. And there are also further possibilities with Adriana and Diane for the MC to dally with, while things get sorted out.

In other words, the sexual aspect of the game will continue like it was before Haley and the MC really started to get serious, with the added drama of Haley's healing thrown in.

Has anyone considered that in the process of being healed, it is possible that not only will she realize the true nature of her liaison with Klaus, and that it has rendered her unhealthy, but that her infatuation and obsession with her brother is not healthy either? In real life that would be a good outcome. In this game, I hope she doesn't get completely cured. ;)
 

DarkSithLord47

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Mar 10, 2019
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Sorry mate but she is experienced, a girl with no sex experience doesn't roleplay bdsm like Haley plus she has been making aggressive advances on the MC, her own brother, since the beginning.
She is just a serial monogamist, but she likes sex a lot no doubt.
the guy just doesnt wanna admit to himself that grandpa was riding her like a horse every time they had a chance just like we dont wanna admit to ourselfes that she fucked him in the first place...its all fucked up but thats what happened...
 
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preglovr12

Salt is a Way of Life
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May 1, 2018
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Has anyone considered that in the process of being healed, it is possible that not only will she realize the true nature of her liaison with Klaus, and that it has rendered her unhealthy, but that her infatuation and obsession with her brother is not healthy either? In real life that would be a good outcome. In this game, I hope she doesn't get completely cured. ;)
I did consider that.
 

apnea111

Member
Dec 18, 2018
155
492
I did consider that.
The way she sees things isnt healthy. A woman in her mid 20s with a 12 years old girl obsession. Loving romantically the MC in a way she figured and scripted since she was 12.

For example love isnt about being treated like a Pet.
It also has conditions. A kid cant understand that Is no such thing As unconditional love. Love has conditions such As honesty isnt needed or apreciated in all cases.

For sure her love must be altered
 

bauman

Active Member
Sep 11, 2018
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Of course it isn't healthy. I would argue her getting creampied on her brother's childhood bed by him isn't healthy either. :LOL:
The thing is her character was presented as having manipulative tendencies from the very beginning. Most fans decided to ignore them, because they wanted to visit Alabama Poundtown really bad. For all the hate Muffin received from players, she was always upfront about her quirks and perceived shortcomings, and didn't try to play the protagonist for a fool.
 
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Ragnar

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Muffin is not a bad girlfriend, but she is the third wheel of the story, the rest of the girls are just fun but Muffin wants a serious relationship with the MC. That's why I don't like to be forced in a relationship with her since the beginning, it isn't fair for her.
 
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troll822

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Jun 22, 2017
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can you imagine 4-5 updates where the mc tries to convince Haley that she was indeed raped and that relationship she had with the pedo teacher was a horrible thing that happened and its killing him inside while she is all like : nahh you have nothing to worry about it was a perfectly normal relationship,he was just the first man to fuck me and stop asking about the daddy kink thats not where i got it from even tho he was the only old guy i had sex with (lets hope)..quit being such a pussy and get over it,nothing bad happened
if they go down that path i'll tell you right now first update is gonna be mc trying to confront the pedo teacher,Haley finds out and she's like : stop that,dont do anything you'll regret,its all in the past let it go,second and third will be about serious talks between the twins about Haley's past and how she needs to accept that what happened to her was that she was raped,after that she goes to therapy for 1-2 updates and maybe then the game will be back on track but by them its gonna be nothing like it was when the game started. they 180 the game on a dark path with cheap drama cause lets face it the devs are out of ideas on what to do next no matter what they say that all of this was scheduled in advance,thats the biggest lie they could tell their fanbase
I can live with that and look forward to those (assuming it's done correctly). I don't agree with the strikethrough parts.
Also, while I think what Klaus did was wrong and I would like it to be resolved ... I am not sure it will be central part of the story.
Perhaps the MC will throw a punch and let it be for a time, let it stew with him and then go to Haley with his concerns and start the drama. Meanwhile I believe they will be having sex.

Muffin is not a bad girlfriend, but she is the third wheel of the story, the rest of the girls are just fun but Muffin wants a serious relationship with the MC. That's why I don't like to be forced in a relationship with her since the beginning, it isn't fair for her.
I would partially agree here. I certainly don't dislike her and after her trust issues etc to have her boyfriend cheat on her with a random for fun, with his boss and with his sister - whom he also has romantic attachment is unfair to her.
BUT... life is not fair. :p
 

Walter Victor

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Dec 27, 2017
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Muffin is not a bad girlfriend, but she is the third wheel of the story, the rest of the girls are just fun but Muffin wants a serious relationship with the MC. That's why I don't like to be forced in a relationship with her since the beginning, it isn't fair for her.
You already have been given the opportunity to lessen the MC's relationship with Sandra so that they are not having sex any more. I suspect that the opportunity to break off with her completely will be soon forthcoming. But there are players here who like Sandra, and don't like Haley, especially after the last release. [I hope you have seen enough of my posts to know that I am definitely not among that group.] For those players, there may now be a chance to swing completely for a Sandra-only ending. For them, Sandra may be the only thing that keeps them playing.

I see nothing wrong with that.
 

Segnbora

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Aug 30, 2017
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Sorry mate but she is experienced, a girl with no sex experience doesn't roleplay bdsm like Haley plus she has been making aggressive advances on the MC, her own brother, since the beginning.
She is just a serial monogamist, but she likes sex a lot no doubt.
I didn't suggest she was a virgin nor that she hadn't had sex or even enjoyable sex. I'm questioning "a lot of sex," primarily by asking "when?"

FWIW, I have a friend who was into BDSM roleplaying — she didn't call it that or know to call it that until much later — for twelve years before the first time she had any kind of sex. I've brought this up in the past while defending the truism that a need for dominance or submission (or in my friend's case submission and humiliation) isn't something an event or external influence imposes on a person.

But there are players here who like Sandra, and don't like Haley, especially after the last release. I see nothing wrong with that.
Me neither, and I'd add that this is the perfect opportunity for the MC's sexual choices to start having consequences. Aside from some fairly minor teasing regarding Sandra (despite being quite supportive of the relationship in general), Haley's let the MC do what and who he wants without objection. If they're in conflict, however, that very well might change. And in fact the MC's previous choices might start to matter as well.
 
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apnea111

Member
Dec 18, 2018
155
492
Of course it isn't healthy. I would argue her getting creampied on her brother's childhood bed by him isn't healthy either. :LOL:
The thing is her character was presented as having manipulative tendencies from the very beginning. Most fans decided to ignore them, because they wanted to visit Alabama Poundtown really bad. For all the hate Muffin received from players, she was always upfront about her quirks and perceived shortcomings, and didn't try to play the protagonist for a fool.
Well to be honest i have read a lot of posts about haley having manipulative tendencies from the very beginning.

To be honest i dont see it. In every thing haley says or does in previous updates her goals are clear. From getting her brother to move their, staf, to getting a foot massage her goals are always clear.

Thats not a manipulative character. Even the most classic way to manipulate a guy by making him jealous isnt in the story. She constantly downgrades her boyfriend.

Well until Last update, where people TRY to figure out her behavior or her attitude during the after sex scene.

Is she oveboosting her sex live, manipulating her brother, getting back at him?

I Already noted that best way to interpretate a wtf moment Is with wth. Developers twisted completely a story developed through "zilion updates" (another Members expration) in a scene of 2 static renders and 10 dialoques lines!!!

For example how i interpretate the "i fuck a lot" haley's line? Writer had to describe haley's teacher relationship, bring it Into disqusion in a logical way, portray the character feelings in 10 dialoques lines. So He Fucked it up.

So simple. A rushed Fucked up sloppy scene, portraying Fucked up sloppy characters, through Fucked up sloppy dialoques.

And yes for sure Sandra Is the most solid less questionable character (with all her flaws) till now
 

bauman

Active Member
Sep 11, 2018
603
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Well to be honest i have read a lot of posts about haley having manipulative tendencies from the very beginning.

To be honest i dont see it. In every thing haley says or does in previous updates her goals are clear. From getting her brother to move their, staf, to getting a foot massage her goals are always clear.

Thats not a manipulative character. Even the most classic way to manipulate a guy by making him jealous isnt in the story. She constantly downgrades her boyfriend.

Well until Last update, where people TRY to figure out her behavior or her attitude during the after sex scene.

Is she oveboosting her sex live, manipulating her brother, getting back at him?

I Already noted that best way to interpretate a wtf moment Is with wth. Developers twisted completely a story developed through "zilion updates" (another Members expration) in a scene of 2 static renders and 10 dialoques lines!!!

For example how i interpretate the "i fuck a lot" haley's line? Writer had to describe haley's teacher relationship, bring it Into disqusion in a logical way, portray the character feelings in 10 dialoques lines. So He Fucked it up.

So simple. A rushed Fucked up sloppy scene, portraying Fucked up sloppy characters, through Fucked up sloppy dialoques.

And yes for sure Sandra Is the most solid less questionable character (with all her flaws) till now
Manipulative =/= concealement or deceit. Manipulative means she's exercising control over certain people and situations when she wants to. From getting her feet rubbed to helping somebody else helping with her work assignments. From sleeping in her brother's bed to flirting with her boss' husband. Plus she pretty much pushed her own brother towards getting into a relationship, while she had input and influenced at times the same relationship. She also pretty much initiated sex between them last update. There might be other examples, but I haven't replayed the game in months and can't remember.
 

apnea111

Member
Dec 18, 2018
155
492
Manipulation in order to have a negative meaning = concealment or deceat.

Other way its just a neutral thing. If so we all are manipulative in our every Day behaviours. Being polite to our boss or to our clients and not tell the to fuck of. Going to social events to follow social norms although we are uninterested, gifting someone in order to win love, friendship or status.

Haley Is like an open book in previous updates. Everyone and the MC can see her intentions. When he cant He contfronts her.

If a girl wants to be constantly be with you, or finds excuses to sleep in your bed its also a clear case. She Is flirting with you not Manipulating you.

Flirting, or sending clear signals isnt Manipulation.
 

bauman

Active Member
Sep 11, 2018
603
2,718
Manipulation in order to have a negative meaning = concealment or deceat.

Other way its just a neutral thing. If so we all are manipulative in our every Day behaviours. Being polite to our boss or to our clients and not tell the to fuck of. Going to social events to follow social norms although we are uninterested, gifting someone in order to win love, friendship or status.

Haley Is like an open book in previous updates. Everyone and the MC can see her intentions. When he cant He contfronts her.

If a girl wants to be constantly be with you, or finds excuses to sleep in your bed its also a clear case. She Is flirting with you not Manipulating you.

Flirting, or sending clear signals isnt Manipulation.
What about intentionally flirting with your superior's spouse to gain an advantage at your place of work? What about lying to your significant other i.e. her long-term boyfriend? These are not examples of neutral behaviour or following social cues as it requires a very active role on her part.

Also,

manipulation
/məˌnɪpjʊˈleɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

1.
the action of manipulating something in a skilful manner.

2.
the action of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous way.
 

apnea111

Member
Dec 18, 2018
155
492
What about intentionally flirting with your superior's spouse to gain an advantage at your place of work? What about lying to your significant other i.e. her long-term boyfriend? These are not examples of neutral behaviour or following social cues as it requires a very active role on her part.

Also,

manipulation
/məˌnɪpjʊˈleɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

1.
the action of manipulating something in a skilful manner.

2.
the action of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous way.
So i guess you just swithed your opinion that characterizing someone As manipulative Is not a neutral but a negative thing.

Everyone In real life Is Being manipulative Is many cased without described As manipulative.

Haley through out the story till last update has always been an open book to her brother.

Did she thought of Manipulating her bossv's spouse? Yes she did. But also a dude that exploit his position of power presenting him self to be charming Is displaying manipulative behaviour.

Adrianna presenting the data that haley produces in order to fuck her up Is also Manipulating behaviour.

Mc's boss waving the "take care of my niece" card while in a position of power against mc Is a manipulative behavior.

MC manipulates Sandra, Adrianna (to potentially be something more than casual sex)

And so on.

Characterizing someone As a manipulative character Is a negative thing. And yes it equals deceat or a hidden agenda.

Haley has never been this way against the MC till now
 
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