VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[Segnbora]

I've got a few problems with this, after thinking about it for way too long in the shower.

I'm trhilled that you're thinking about me in the shower.

Just so we're on the same page, I'm assuming you think people that read comic book issues as they come out and don't wait for the complete arc are doing themselves a disservice?

I think that comic books are a mature medium developed around the idea that consumption will be episodic. My understanding is that story-length narratives are settled before a run is initiated, but correct me if I'm wrong. Nonetheless, the individual folios are released with the understand that they're writing episodic television by the old standards; one waits until next week/month/release for the rest.

I don't think game authors are there yet. I think most of them grasp the reality that Patreon has forced on them, but the sophisticated way that episodic media teases and then releases is the result of decades of artistry and honing. Quite honestly, I don't expect any of them to get it yet. It's an immature medium. Television and comics have thrown thousands of geniuses at this issue and found solutions. Patron-supported adult game authors...haven't.

If so, I don't really see how the rest of the story has anything to do with how people interpret the beginning.

Return, please, to my Star Wars example. "The guy who just blithely killed the majority of our pilots and almost destroyed the entire Rebellion...I'm gonna go learn everything about the Force, but not so I can defeat him, so I can save him. That's cool with y'all, right?"

If, as I also indicated, one reads "A Long-Expected Party" and believes they're getting Hobbit 2: Electric Boogaloo, they're going to be rather dismayed at what follows. The tonal shits are immediate and relentless. Relentless. Did you think the sweaty dude in the pub would be vying for the kingship of the majority of Middle-Earth? Did you think Gandalf would die? Did you think Sméagol would save existence? Did you think Frodo would fail? Did you thnk that Sam being an unforgiving asshole would be the key to victory? Because all of that happened.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. was a mediocre procedural until Winter Soldier allowed them to tell the story they were always designed to tell. So is an opinion based on season 1 valid or not?

Was Mister Tumnus a religious allegory, or did that happen later? Were the Vorlons good? What sort of person is Charles Foster Kane?

The beginning of a story is not the end of a story.

One of the devs has already pointed out that those who thought it was a lighthearted incestuous sex romp were wrong. I believe him, but I also think the impression was a failure in the writing. Nonetheless, some insisted that there was no plan along these lines, and now they've been told they were wrong.

*cough*

I'm also not sure 'the reveal' puts people in the best frame of mind to enjoy it going forward.

I've long agreed that the timing sucked. My jury is out on the reveal itself. My jury has rendered on the timing of it. It was a poor choice.

I just don't see how HS being incomplete changes anything.

There's a point at which The Handmaid's Tale — I mean the book, not the series — is an intolerable and unbearable record of oppression. My belief is that, if one follows it to the end, the reward is a powerful story. But if you peace-out halfway through, how would you know this? Why would you believe it? What good is your opinion to those who've finished it?

Or, here: Paul and his mother are exiled into the desert. She's probably gonna fuck the tribal leader just to save their lives. On the other hand, he's gonna be killed because he's a worthless boy. This after several dudes already tried to rape Mom and more than a few people tried to kill the boy. Plus everyone I care about is dead. Y'know what, I'm out. This is rapey and murder-y and gross.

The whole story is important. It matters.

 

[Segnbora]

The "daddy" thing to me seems like a mild irritation and is pretty much irrelevant. It's an annoyance, nothing more.

The MC's fine with "Daddy" when they're playful and feeling sexy, and he appears to get it (ref. the spanking scene). He loses patience with it when he's annoyed, which is now much more frequent thanks to the Klaus reveal. It's all quite consistent and logical. There's a reason people who are seriously into power exchange refuse to engage in it when there are serious disagreements at stake. It's deforming. Instinctually, the MC realizes this; no "Daddy" when he's angry at her.

 

[Skylaroo]

One of the devs has already pointed out that those who thought it was a lighthearted incestuous sex romp were wrong. I believe him, but I also think the impression was a failure in the writing.

Yeah sadly this is basically making me question the quality of the writing even more. People are wrong for thinking the game is a lighthearted incestuous sex romp game, but unfortunately that's exactly what the game was portrayed as at the beginning. The "Humor" tag is still even in the Genre section on the first page.

Having played up to a year in development, we can also agree that choices hardly matter in this game. Yet, the dev's description of the game on the patreon page includes the sentence "A choice based visual novel" despite the game largely being very linear.

At this point, I don't know whether the dev is simply unable to do what they want to do, or unable to describe what they do, or they simply don't know the end game. It also makes me wonder whether this is one of those "too many cooks spoil the broth" kind of situation where different members of the dev team have different ideas on how to proceed with the game.

 

[Walter Victor]

What I don't get is what difference it makes whether Victor or Sandra or someone else was raped or abused or something else. Another episode has occurred in the past that will further the MC's knowledge of how to approach Haley and resolve both of their issues. So, what difference does it make what that particular episode was?

OH! IT'S A RAPE GAME! IT'S A RAPE GAME!
NO IT'S NOT! NO IT'S NOT!

Grow up, already! It's a pointless argument and belittling to the intelligence of most of the people who post here, including the arguers.

 

[pwnography]

What I don't get is what difference it makes whether Victor or Sandra or someone else was raped or abused or something else.

It's a huge change in tone that can put people off. An extreme analogy would be having a 10-minute Tom and Jerry cartoon in the middle of Saving Private Ryan. Sure, you can say "BuT ThE CrEAtOr ViSioN!" all day long but it doesn't shield you from criticism.

It feels like some writers for these games spend months/years with the same story, get bored and forget they were actually making PORN in the first place. Satisfaction for the audience is basically the entire point.

 

[Walter Victor]

It's a huge change in tone that can put people off. An extreme analogy would be having a 10-minute Tom and Jerry cartoon in the middle of Saving Private Ryan. Sure, you can say "BuT ThE CrEAtOr ViSioN!" all day long but it doesn't shield you from criticism.

It feels like some writers for these games spend months/years with the same story, get bored and forget they were actually making PORN in the first place. Satisfaction for the audience is basically the entire point.

Obviously it has turned plenty of players off. They are already turned off by what happened to Haley. They don't like what happened to what they thought was a romantic comedy. Turns out it wasn't what they thought it was. They are free to be perturbed about that.

Actually, what has happened (for them) is Tom and Jerry has turned into Saving Private Haley. Or even that Tom finally caught Jerry, and ate him.

But that deed (with Haley) has happened. The story has changed. I just don't see what difference it makes what further trauma is revealed in order to resolve the conflict introduced in v0.55. And it seems demeaning to argue about what that trauma does to the game at this point. I believe the nature of that to-be-revealed trauma is irrelevant.

 

[apnea111]

Well,

The main plot of the games story in its current state its dealing with a rape cases aftermath, and dealing with the rapist.

And predicted to remain the main plot for several coming update.

While raping or abusing another one in order to progress the previous rape related case.

So i quess..

ITS A RAPE GAME! ITS A RAPE GAME!
(of a meta or borderline nature. Keeping it low in order to avoid triggering People who avoid to see the obvious)

 

[pwnography]

But that deed (with Haley) has happened. The story has changed. I just don't see what difference it makes what further trauma is revealed in order to resolve the conflict introduced in v0.55. And it seems demeaning to argue about what that trauma does to the game at this point. I believe the nature of that to-be-revealed trauma is irrelevant.

The game attracted a specific type of player with its beginning. However many updates later, it pulled the rug from under them and changed the story type. It mixed water and oil. Discussions are bound to happen, especially since the story is not written yet.

Similarly, you can't just say "oh well, it's done" and suddenly everyone who doesn't like it fucks off and leaves only fans. That's just not a realistic expectation.

I am here because I am curious how it turns out. If it becomes some Acting Lessons-level drama I'll just eyeroll and drop it. Maybe they keep the drama but write it better or maybe they back off. Either way, this shit is at the very least *interesting*.

 

[Walter Victor]

Similarly, you can't just say "oh well, it's done" and suddenly everyone who doesn't like it fucks off and leaves only fans. That's just not a realistic expectation.

I fully respect your position, but don't you question why people who proclaim, THIS GAME HAS TURNED TO SHIT!!! still hang around and bitch? There must be something better to do!

 

[pwnography]

I fully respect your position, but don't you question why people who proclaim, THIS GAME HAS TURNED TO SHIT!!! still hang around and bitch? There must be something better to do!

I've stopped questioning the rationality of people on the internet. I just know the end result of poking the hive, even unintentionally.

Besides, everyone has actions or ideas that are completely illogical. Once you accept that, people in general make more sense.

 

[Sol Invicti]

Late to the party, I see. Interesting game, I'd say. Just played this game today, up to thee 0.6 updates. Enjoyed the dialogues between PC and Haley, nice touch. Liked the game a fair bit, so here's my two cents. Not trying to shit on the game, quite frankly I just felt the writer could put up a better one than what we are dealing with.

A side note, first. Couldn't quite remember where I saw it, but statutory rape is still rape, yo. Not that many states used the term, but instead classified as sexual assault. If she is below Age of consent, then even if it's consensual, it's still a rape. Romeo and Juliet clauses do not apply to teacher and students. Also the crime doesn't require force. Not that it's relevant in the discussion I presume, but still. Wouldn't want to get the facts wrong, now would we.

I feel like I could give this one a 7.5 or 8 out of 10. Character models are pretty good. Writings are nice, at least in the early parts. Development is okay, though a bit odd, and sometimes out of nowhere, but in general acceptable.

Though despite all the positive traits it has, the game does still have its fair share of shortcomings, the tone shift for one, felt quite rushed. I'm sure many players already talked about it, so I will just very gently say that I don't feel like the game is trash due to the update, it's just not great at what it does.

Sure, I can understand if the writers (if there's more than one) want to answer the question that bothers (not that many people, I'm sure) its players: why would Haley fuck her brothers at that particular time? In all honesty I could care less about why your sister wants to fuck your brains out, or you want to go wild with you mom or your daughter. Most siblings I know wouldn't have to deal with that, because they have gotten used to each other, and I am just playing an adult game that is from f95zone. However, if the writers feel they are obligated, let them; but do not try to shoehorn a statutory rape under the guise of a light romantic visual novel. Doesn't bode well, most likely.

Either they didn't plan ahead or had a sudden change of heart is their own business, I don't give two ffs. Under most circumstances, the creator should be straight forward to its audience, and that would probably for the best. If you are trying to sell a grimdark story and pretend it's a noblelight one, you are being dishonest. Hell for the first hour I played this game I thought it was comedy too. How wrong I was. I am not mad, just a little bit disappointed.

From what I can see, the story gradually turns from my sister and my new life away from home into who the f**k raped my sister when she's 15. As for where the story goes from here, I don't see a clear way out. On the one hand, since this game has already pissed off that many guys, it might as well just continue to piss on them, I don't see the difference. They are not coming back to this game one way or another. Bad impression hardly goes away. On the other hand, it could either backtrack, reiterate the story or just wait it out, but that feels insincere and would probably resulted into a rather sudden and drastic change of tone (again), and might even piss more people off.

Regarding Haley, I'd say the best outcome is probably report to the appropriate authority, assuming the PC is going to do the right thing. There's a reason why vendetta and Lynching ("taken matters into own hands") are prohibited by the law and frowned upon. There's also a reason why there are Mandatory Reporters for child abuse or other professionals. There might also be the probability of unwanted attention and dramatic consequences for Haley, and that would be very unfortunate byproduct of seeking justice. I don't see a win-win outcome out of this, definitely not for Klaus if he loses the case (if PC is going to sue him), losing his family over a crime he committed that many years ago (not trying to defend him, just saying), and very likely not for Haley. However, if PC wants vengeance, that might be the way to go.

Good luck to the devs, hope they turn this boat around.

What I am trying to say is:
1.The writing to me is from good to meh or even urghhh.
2.The game is in a catch-22 situation, and the last two updates probably had a helping hand in that.
3.I don't really believe the writers can pull off a rescue on the whole trauma thing.
4.Worth a try, I guess.

I fully respect your position, but don't you question why people who proclaim, THIS GAME HAS TURNED TO SHIT!!! still hang around and bitch? There must be something better to do!

People argue what they want, it's their freedom and it's up to them how they would like to spend their time. Trash a game that just got into a rough situation? Let them. Do your part and move on. Indeed there must be a better use of their time, but if the customer wants to complain about certain things they don't enjoy, you can't really stop them. It's truly a shame it would come down to this, but alas.

 

[bauman]

I fully respect your position, but don't you question why people who proclaim, THIS GAME HAS TURNED TO SHIT!!! still hang around and bitch? There must be something better to do!

Who says it though? I CTRL+F'd the last 7 pages and nobody is saying it. All posters, whether they like the game or not state their reasons why. It has been a rather civil discussion. I actually like when players voice their displeasure. Maybe that's the reason why some content creators feel intidimated to post here. It's easier to feel validated when you're not challenged.

 

[Walter Victor]

Who says it though? I CTRL+F'd the last 7 pages and nobody is saying it. All posters, whether they like the game or not state their reasons why. It has been a rather civil discussion. I actually like when players voice their displeasure. Maybe that's the reason why some content creators feel intidimated to post here. It's easier to feel validated when you're not challenged.

Just do a search on 'shit' and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[bauman]

Just do a search on 'shit' and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I did. The developers should feel humbled there are people caring enough to continue arguing about the game's future. Almost 100 pages for the last two updates alone. Al things considered it's a complement how much smut games have evolved in the last few years.

Here's the official ranking for the number of times "shit" had been used in the last 10 pages. All the losers should strive to do better in the future:

Segnbora: 1
Walter Victor: 2
pwnography: 1
Alfius: 1
vir_cotto: 1
apnea111: 7
preglovr12: 6
DarkSithLord47: 4
Holy Bacchus: 1
Avaron1974: 1
bauman: 1

 

[apnea111]

I did. The developers should feel humbled there are people caring enough to continue arguing about the game's future. Almost 100 pages for the last two updates alone. Al things considered it's a complement how much smut games have evolved in the last few years.

Here's the official ranking for the number of times "shit" had been used in the last 10 pages. All the losers should strive to do better in the future:

Segnbora: 1
Walter Victor: 1
pwnography: 1
Alfius: 1
vir_cotto: 1
apnea111: 6
preglovr12: 6
DarkSithLord47: 4
Holy Bacchus: 1
Avaron1974: 1


View attachment 421103

Well only 6 times Is a low performance for all the shit i believed it was thrown Into the story (Already trying to gain Some ground).

If i had rated this game prior to 0.55 i would have rated it 4,5+/5. I rated it after 0.60 with a 3,5/5.Its an average rating, not a shitty one.

For me Last 2 updates were True shit, but this was a spectacular game so the big picture isnt one of a shity game.

But in its current state the content and the dynamics are so problematic for me, that i believe its waking one a thin line.

The game can still be saved and regain Some of its previous qualities.

Also there Is a strong tendency to keep on the track that 0,55 opened. And instead of the first a strong possibility transforming Into outter shit.

Even if that happens there still be no arguement. Everyone has the freedom to critisize however he wants, whereever he want. Arguements are not judged by a shit Index who dispays how many times the one argueing Is using the world shit. Or by a feeling, probably one of raige or dispare that someone Is throwing shit on your beloved game (bouhouhou...). Are judged by their content.

(cutting the shit thing now)

Dev have Already set the ground in a way that seems things will get more problematic.

1) The coming revelation of a second rape or abuse case. When they Already have problem handling the first one. How they gonna present it and handle it Is a big question. Will it be a main part of the plot, while the prexisting case Is Already the main one? Or just a side rape?
First option Is highly problematic in terms of story handling. Second one highly problematic As a frame since players are used to sidechicks. Side rape victims would be a New original frame.
Sidechicks Is a usefull tool to deliver porn content in story until the escalation point between protagonists. I cant see the usage of the side rape victims tool, and dont see it becoming a mainstream one.

2) Last update had a Major fault in storys frame. That of the" i didnt fuck adriana at all in the past/went on the trip with her" case.

An alternative scene Is required to be scripted in order for brancing to make common sense.
And in order to inline Games content in all different routes in that scene mc has to reveal his Sisters rape case to his female boss whith whom he has a typical relationship prior to that scene.
Its Already problematic and the question Is if the devs gonna do it in a way it makes sense. Or they gonna continue the continue the story even if doesnt make much sense pattern.

3) The content of the story through different routes needs to be inlined and in another case. Doing otherwise and having different content in different routes May become a Major problem in future updates.

For those who went on the trip adriana knows about Haleys case and Victor Is about to be told about it.

For those who didnt go on the trip, Victor Is gonna be told (clarified it concerns haley) but adriana has no clue about it.

Are they gonna inline the storys content in that case? And in what way?

One of my main arguements is that Dev transformed storys frame in Last 2 updates in to a such complexible one that Is problematic to handle. That problems are Already clear in terms of the True nature of the content they deliver and also in storys mechanics.

The should start closing storys pending issues without leaving gaps or making Major common logic mistakes. Making the story frame more simple. Before the storys frame becomes unhandable.

 

[Walter Victor]

I did. The developers should feel humbled there are people caring enough to continue arguing about the game's future. Almost 100 pages for the last two updates alone. Al things considered it's a complement how much smut games have evolved in the last few years.

Here's the official ranking for the number of times "shit" had been used in the last 10 pages. All the losers should strive to do better in the future:

Segnbora: 1
Walter Victor: 1
pwnography: 1
Alfius: 1
vir_cotto: 1
apnea111: 6
preglovr12: 6
DarkSithLord47: 4
Holy Bacchus: 1
Avaron1974: 1


View attachment 421103

You need to go back into your post and add yourself to the list now.

 

[Segnbora]

Yeah sadly this is basically making me question the quality of the writing even more. People are wrong for thinking the game is a lighthearted incestuous sex romp game, but unfortunately that's exactly what the game was portrayed as at the beginning.

Not "portrayed as." That's you projecting. It may be what it was until now, but at no time in any medium did the writing team say, "hey, we're writing a lighthearted incestuous sex romp." This is why I keep pointing out that works can't be judged in their entirety by staring really hard at a fractional portion.

The "Humor" tag is still even in the Genre section on the first page.

There's still humor in the game, so why wouldn't it?

Having played up to a year in development, we can also agree that choices hardly matter in this game.

Sure they do. You get to choose whether or not you have sex (or in one case "sex") with everyone except Haley. (Maybe the first encounter with Sandra isn't avoidable; I don't remember.) In several cases you get to choose between two NPCs, one of which gives you the option to have sex with one or the other.

At this stage in the game, the MC can be someone who kept his hands off the merchandise, let Sandra down easy, and was consistently nice to his sister. Or he can be someone who brazenly cheated on Sandra (and Haley, even though she doesn't appear to mind) and was a complete asshole to his sister. Or anything in between. No, how you treat Haley doesn't ultimately keep her out of your bed, but on this point we do have a suggestion from Ptolemy that it's going to start mattering.

You're confusing choices with branching. Roleplaying is also choice-based, even though you're still going to have to enter the cave. This is roleplaying.

At this point, I don't know whether the dev is simply unable to do what they want to do, or unable to describe what they do

Question: how many statements from the writers regarding what they want to do, or describing what they do, have you encountered? I'm only aware of one, aside from random Discord posts from Ptolemy that don't usually reveal much, and it's this: "You just finished college and started a entry level job alongside Haley. As you progress through the story, different choices will be presented to you which will impact the course of the story as well as the ending." Is there any promise of a lighthearted romp? That the first dozen releases will be the tonal center of the game? That it won't be both humorous and serious at various points? What does that statement promise? Only your job, your sister's name, and that there will be choices. Everything else is a personal construct for which you, I, and everyone else playing the game is individually and solely responsible.

 

[Segnbora]

Apologies for double-posting, but this is quite spoilery so I think it's worth separating.

I just went and dug through Discord for a while. (I am too old for that platform.) Ptolemy did in fact confirm two things that we've been debating here. They're really spoilery, so if you don't want to know, don't look.

Regarding Haley points: they do in fact matter.

Spoiler

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Regarding endings:

Spoiler

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[Walter Victor]

Regarding Haley points: they do in fact matter.

Hmm!

Spoiler: Oh oh!

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[Segnbora]

Spoiler: Oh oh!

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It's possible. Like I said somewhere upthread, if this game is about fixing Haley rather than fucking Haley (or even if it's both, which seems most likely), the MC may well have to choose her wellbeing over his dick. Which is perfectly fine.