VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[preglovr12]

So is an opinion based on season 1 valid or not?

This is where we lose touch I feel. If someone stopped watching because they thought season 1 sucked, sure they might be missing out, but that doesn't make their opinion less valid on season one. Hopefully everyone that doesn't know the difference has been weeded out by now, but then again, we can only judge by what's out, so saying "it's a bad game" right now because chapter one sucks is factually accurate, just as all those positive early ratings might be equally not representative of those people's current views.

What good is your opinion to those who've finished it?

To continue, hopefully anyone actually reading reviews can read the time and date they were posted and understand the context. Hopefully those that have already reviewed continue to update as the game progresses as well to reflect changes. If not, they're still completely valid "time capsule" opinions.

My question to you is why would anyone that's played the full game want to know other people's opinions? Hopefully whoever has formed their own playing it, and if not, God help them. I've always viewed reviews as things for people that might want to experience something, not something for people to deep dive into after playing it. Even if people like that exist, they still operate as time capsules, which arguably might be more interesting to read when it's all done.

The whole story is important. It matters.

To me this point isn't even worth making. I hope everyone still here knows this and while I know you have your doubts I'm not sure I'd agree. Of course someone that's finished the game will have a more complete opinion, but that doesn't invalidate anyone else's. The only invalid opinions are the ones that are based off of provenly false information.

 

[preglovr12]

I fully respect your position, but don't you question why people who proclaim, THIS GAME HAS TURNED TO SHIT!!! still hang around and bitch? There must be something better to do!

Serious question, why are you here and actually engaging in the community if you don't want to read people's opinions? You can lurk and still get free games.

 

[Segnbora]

If someone stopped watching because they thought season 1 sucked, sure they might be missing out, but that doesn't make their opinion less valid on season one.

On Season 1? No, absolutely not. I think it's an excellent guide to deciding whether or not to watch season one. On six seasons of the series? I think it does invalidate the opinion. I think it's easily and rightfully dismissible.

My question to you is why would anyone that's played the full game want to know other people's opinions?

I'm a bad person to ask because I never read reviews on this site. I don't write them, either. I feel entirely capable of making my own decisions and prefer to do so. I fully understand that I'm unusual in that regard.

It's not about "want to know," though. It's about looking at someone's opinion — "hey, the Duke's dead and all his advisors and the only friends the MC's known are dead or captured, the MC's on the run, his mom's a lying and legitimately born-and-bred whore instilling false religions in primitive tribes, and every fucking person he's ever known has been lying to him his entire life; I'm out" — and judging how relevant it is. There is a point at which this is an entirely justifiable assessment of Dune. But it's wrong, and anyone who's finished the book knows it's wrong.

The only invalid opinions are the ones that are based off of provenly false information.

You mean like "every update that comes out I'm questioning whether or not there's a bigger plan for this game"?

Because there is, and now two of the devs have confirmed it.

 

[Walter Victor]

Serious question, why are you here and actually engaging in the community if you don't want to read people's opinions? You can lurk and still get free games.

Here's a serious answer.

I came to F95 for the same reason I have ever gone to any blog - for information; in this case about the games I play. In return for that information, I have also attempted to provide any information I can. Since I read the code in all the Ren'Py games I play, sometimes that information can be helpful for those who are struggling with something in a particular game.

Since I am anal, I also try to read everything in those games I really care about. Although, I admit to skimming some, especially in those posts where the poster (usually for language difficulties) is unable to produce coherent sentences. No sense in reading that which is incomprehensible.

In those game I really like, I like to join in the speculation of others and offer my own takes when I feel they offer some value.

Since I am a smart-ass, I will often throw in a quip. [It used to get me in big trouble when I was very young.]

And since I care a lot for some of these games, I tend to be defensive about them. I try not to oppose those who are merely offering an opinion that differs from mine, unless I can do so with facts. I believe that arguing about opinions is a complete waste of time (and my ability to play these games). But some things just piss me off, especially those that seem illogical to any rational person, and I burst in.

Since I do like to actually play the games, I often have to abandon F95 threads for awhile, especially when the posts are too voluminous to read everything (i.e. Being a DIK, etc.).

So there you go!

For anyone who actually read all of this twaddle, I offer you the prestigious Walter Victor Anal Retentive Award (suitable for framing). It will be shipped directly to your home upon receipt of $9.99 for shipping and handling. [Check or money order only. No Bitcoins.] [Offer good only in the Continental USA and Canada.]

 

[apnea111]

Here's a serious answer.

I came to F95 for the same reason I have ever gone to any blog - for information; in this case about the games I play. In return for that information, I have also attempted to provide any information I can. Since I read the code in all the Ren'Py games I play, sometimes that information can be helpful for those who are struggling with something in a particular game.

Since I am anal, I also try to read everything in those games I really care about. Although, I admit to skimming some, especially in those posts where the poster (usually for language difficulties) is unable to produce coherent sentences. No sense in reading that which is incomprehensible.

In those game I really like, I like to join in the speculation of others and offer my own takes when I feel they offer some value.

Since I am a smart-ass, I will often throw in a quip. [It used to get me in big trouble when I was very young.]

And since I care a lot for some of these games, I tend to be defensive about them. I try not to oppose those who are merely offering an opinion that differs from mine, unless I can do so with facts. I believe that arguing about opinions is a complete waste of time (and my ability to play these games). But some things just piss me off, especially those that seem illogical to any rational person, and I burst in.

Since I do like to actually play the games, I often have to abandon F95 threads for awhile, especially when the posts are too voluminous to read everything (i.e. Being a DIK, etc.).

So there you go!

For anyone who actually read all of this twaddle, I offer you the prestigious Walter Victor Anal Retentive Award (suitable for framing). It will be shipped directly to your home upon receipt of $9.99 for shipping and handling. [Check or money order only. No Bitcoins.] [Offer good only in the Continental USA and Canada.]

Thats a sad selfglorifying post Mate.

Ptolemy could pull out a game story out of it...

 

[preglovr12]

On Season 1? No, absolutely not. I think it's an excellent guide to deciding whether or not to watch season one. On six seasons of the series? I think it does invalidate the opinion. I think it's easily and rightfully dismissible.

I can tell you have a different view on opinions than I do. I don't think any opinion can be invalidated like that. I hate calling it a fallacy but the "sunk cost fallacy" is a thing and I'd like for people to avoid it as much as possible.

Not "portrayed as." That's you projecting. It may be what it was until now, but at no time in any medium did the writing team say, "hey, we're writing a lighthearted incestuous sex romp." This is why I keep pointing out that works can't be judged in their entirety by staring really hard at a fractional portion.

I hope you realize how pedantic this is. Plus, I always figured you liked "art" more than I did. Sticking with SW, the special editions are more in line with what Lucas intended the original trilogy to look like, and I'd be willing to bet you prefer the theatrical cuts like the majority of people do. Is your opinion on that somehow invalidated by the fact that there's a "more complete" version out there?

You mean like "every update that comes out I'm questioning whether or not there's a bigger plan for this game"?

Because there is, and now two of the devs have confirmed it.

Let me slightly revise that statement based on the NEW information: "I'm not sure whether there's one plan that both devs agreed upon from the start or if the two devs are trying to Frankenstein's monster two ideas into a consistent narrative."

Here's a serious answer.

Thanks, that was informative and exactly what I wanted to know.

 

[Segnbora]

I can tell you have a different view on opinions than I do. I don't think any opinion can be invalidated like that. I hate calling it a fallacy but the "sunk cost fallacy" is a thing and I'd like for people to avoid it as much as possible.

I give vastly more credit to opinions when they're knowledgable. If A almost never goes out to eat but loves the Olive Garden and B has eaten all over the world at the most interesting places at all levels of price and sophistication (and is also an excellent home chef) and they both give me an opinion about a restaurant, I'm going to massively preference one opinion over the other. I think doing otherwise is insane. So if that's different from your view, then yes, I guess we do.

I hope you realize how pedantic this is.

I'm confused by your response. There is a rather bloated corpus of bad-faith argument in this thread that the game, as it currently exists, has betrayed its intent. There's a truly nutty amount of assignment of blame and swaggering theorizing about who's at fault (mostly not from you, though occasionally from you). And yet, not one but two members of the development team — I think that makes two-thirds, but I'm open to correction — have stated that there's not only a plan, but that the belief that this was a "lighthearted incestuous romp" or whatever was wrong, was always wrong, and will remain wrong.

So...it's wrong. I don't blame anyone for thinking otherwise. I did too, and there's evidence of it way back in this thread. The divergence comes here: when it suddenly wasn't, I accepted that I was wrong and proceeded to take the story as it now exists. I'm not criticizing anyone for not liking the shift. I'm ambivalent about it until I'm convinced that it will pay off in a satisfactory way. I'm criticizing the insistence that the story has betrayed some objective ideal (and, in many cases, the puerile, foot-stomping, "I refuse to see the thing hovering in front of my face" belief that this cannot ever have been the plan). Objective ideals have been, and can only have been, imposed on the game by players. All of us, individually, with our own interpretations. There are only two or three people whose ideals actually inhabit the game, and we only have one statement of intent from them. That's Viit's intro on the Patreon page. That's it. That's all. (Well, OK, we have Ptolemy on Discord as well, and the occasional burst of frustration from gamersglory, though I can't believe he willingly subjects himself to the nonsense and defamation in this thread.) Everything else is the fantastical imagination of consumers, none of whom understand the authorial intent. Including me, by the way.

Is your opinion on that somehow invalidated by the fact that there's a "more complete" version out there?.

I reject the premise that they're "more complete." I'm a very good editor and that's part of how I make my living, but it's not the same art as creation, and even though I do it every day I would argue it's a lesser art than creation because it's inescapably parasitic. Unless it's fixing a technical error, post hoc tinkering of this nature degrades the art. That's why it's bad; it's not because there's a CG Jabba for Han to step on. Give me unlimited resources and I can "fix" everything until all creation satisfies 100% of my whims, but that would be a tragically dull artistic world in which I'd never want to live. I can create my own art, and I do, but once I've created it I get very little pleasure out of consuming it. I want to be surprised, startled, taken out of my comfort zone, moved in ways I don't expect, shown things I never expected to see. I need other people's flawed, incomplete, but thoroughly authentic visions to experience that.

 

[Ragnar]

I started playing the game with 0.55 update, so maybe that's why I ain't butthurt about the "rape" thing, reading from the beginning I liked the story until now. It's not perfect of course but enjoyable with some good and some hot characters.

 

[slightchance]

Let's write a song with melodic elements of pop and country music over the course of months that eventually ends with gabber and deathcore. People who enjoyed the first part of the piece are not allowed to criticize the other half or the song as a whole should it no be to their liking because they're less informed and don't understand the deeper structural meaning and social commentary.
"We never wanted to make lighthearted music one can enjoy while having a conversation. No, raping your eardrums was the plan from the start and if you can't make your dance moves to our crescendo whose fault is it really?"

 

[Segnbora]

I think we could just criticize it for being bad (if that's what it is) without having to engage in rhetorical contortions between our incorrect assumptions and authorial intent. But am I more interested in a professional art historian's opinion of a piece of art than I am someone who's seeing their fourth sculpture? Yes I am. Do I think someone who's seen the entirety of Doctor Who has a more credible opinion on the qualities and failures of the show's many different eras than someone who started watching when Matt Smith was hired? Yes I do.

Having one's point contested is not the same thing as being told one is not allowed to do something. I'd think people who use the internet would understand that by now, but I guess not.

Also, as much as I like prog rock and classical music I'm not sure I want to listen to a song that goes on for months.

 

[slightchance]

You certainly have a talent for picking other people's comments apart and defending your own arguments aka straw man. It's impressive how often you've used this fallacy on this page alone. It's the number one reason why a don't enjoy talking to you.

>Is your opinion on that somehow invalidated by the fact that there's a "more complete" version out there?
>>I reject the premise that they're "more complete." [...]

You know, just to give an example.

 

[Segnbora]

preglovr12 introduced an argument in an attempt to convince me that the additional/richer content in the revamped versions of the original Star Wars trilogy contradicts my assertion that a critique of a complete work is superior to a critique of an incomplete work because, as he correctly suggests, I (like almost everyone else) prefer the originals in all their flawed glory.

I don't agree that his example demonstrates his argument and I explained why. I thought it would be more fruitful to do that than to simply say "I don't agree" or "you're wrong" or to draw some elaborate analogy to a nonexistent song. If that's how you define the straw man fallacy then you're correct that we probably shouldn't engage with each other, because I don't recognize the way in which you use language.

 

[slightchance]

You didn't explain anything but somehow felt the need to pick apart his sentence and lament about editorial work in an attempt to give the word "complete" more weight when it wasn't even part of the initial argument.

 

[preglovr12]

I'm confused by your response. There is a rather bloated corpus of bad-faith argument in this thread that the game, as it currently exists, has betrayed its intent. There's a truly nutty amount of assignment of blame and swaggering theorizing about who's at fault (mostly not from you, though occasionally from you). And yet, not one but two members of the development team — I think that makes two-thirds, but I'm open to correction — have stated that there's not only a plan, but that the belief that this was a "lighthearted incestuous romp" or whatever was wrong, was always wrong, and will remain wrong.

I should have explained more than I did. More than a failure of interpretation or anyone's (more recent) assertions about the game, it's a failure of English. I don't think that guy meant this game literally was a light-hearted comedy and then broke some promise, he meant it played like one. The fact that we interpreted the same sentence so differently is a failure of English and not one of our interpretation skills or the guy's ability to write or explain himself. Honestly, I feel like you're going after him for words you put in his mouth. Could he have explained himself better and used different language? Sure, but so could you a lot of the time, which I don't mean in a mean way. Hopefully what I point out in the rest of this post makes sense and doesn't just make me look like an ass. I refuse to assert I know much about English as my second grade teacher put me off so much I hate thinking about grammar and verb tenses.

(Sorry if you're not a him by the way, other guy)

My assertions of blame are fully aware of the fact that this was always meant to be. I want to know who thought it was a good idea to have such a tonal whiplash. I want to know mostly because I'm playing other Ptolemy games, and also a little because I'd like to laugh at whoever decided to do this because it's created a shitshow in this thread (and the game IMO.)

I reject the premise that they're "more complete."

This directly contradicts what you just said. Your assertion's wrong based on your prior argument which was "word of God". Lucas bastardised his own creations. His artistic vision might've been greater than technology allowed at the time, thus the special editions are more complete versions of the stories.

Yes I'm being intentionally pedantic. I don't actually mean any of this but it seems to me like you're being ever so slightly hypocritical and I'd like to figure it all out. Don't worry, I know a story that's yet to be complete is a lot different than one that's been said to be complete and then revised. It was just something I knew we both know and I felt like it made my point well enough.

I give vastly more credit to opinions when they're knowledgable. If A almost never goes out to eat but loves the Olive Garden and B has eaten all over the world at the most interesting places at all levels of price and sophistication (and is also an excellent home chef) and they both give me an opinion about a restaurant, I'm going to massively preference one opinion over the other. I think doing otherwise is insane. So if that's different from your view, then yes, I guess we do.

I think we could just criticize it for being bad (if that's what it is) without having to engage in rhetorical contortions between our incorrect assumptions and authorial intent. But am I more interested in a professional art historian's opinion of a piece of art than I am someone who's seeing their fourth sculpture? Yes I am. Do I think someone who's seen the entirety of Doctor Who has a more credible opinion on the qualities and failures of the show's many different eras than someone who started watching when Matt Smith was hired? Yes I do.

Having one's point contested is not the same thing as being told one is not allowed to do something. I'd think people who use the internet would understand that by now, but I guess not.

See, this is exactly how I feel about opinions, but I think it's a mistake to use language like "valid." I think I've made it obvious I understand some opinions carry more weight than others, but that doesn't mean they're "more valid."

 

[Walter Victor]

It is getting difficult to navigate this thread for all the straw men strewn about.

 

[apnea111]

For sure it is getting difficult to navigate this thread for the all the straw men strewn about.
So for what exactly are the straw men strewing about?

The tonal swift of the game

Presenting it as the main point of the criticism for the ones that didn’t like the story’s u turn.
Presenting the criticism simplistic, univocal and naïve. Inductively presenting the people criticising in such way. (while opposing to a misleading point, presenting himself in the opposite way.)
Deliberately ignoring that a main point of criticism is not the story’s u turn but how it was achieved. Through a series of highly unplausible events.
Deliberately ignoring that a main point of criticism is that when you twist a story that way, the characters are also twisted that way. In a way that makes them inconsistent to their prior behaviors. So not only the events that signaled story’s u turn was a series of highly unplausible ones but also the behaviors.
Deliberately ignoring the story’s technical minor or major mistakes in last 2 chapters, is a valid point of criticism. Making it more valid if your main argument is that the story’s u turn was the initial plan, the core of story’s nature, and yet in the most important 2 chapters of the story dev released them having minor or major rendering mistakes, major branching mistakes with entire scenes missing or even to quality check if the content is proofread.

Finding arguments(?) to justify his opinion by trying to find common ground between HS and masterpieces such as Star Wars, The Dune, LOTR. Pieces of art that have achieved legendary status.
Ignoring the obvious. That for every story that was u turned midways and the outcome made sense, there are dozens of story that it didn’t. And that among them few reached a masterpiece status.
Ptolemy has about 400 patrons atm. His patreon income is about 1500 bucks/month. Ranked 179th among adult games developers. And yet some people try to find common ground and present arguments through LOTR for example, which only for the movie trilogy made 3 billion usd in the box office, and received 17 oscar awards in total. With “The return of the king” receiving 11 oscars, making it the highest decorated movie in cinematography’s history together with “Ben Hur” and “The Titanic”

And the outcome of thousands of worlds?

Acknowledging that people are justified to dislike the tonal swift but actually not!!!
You got it wrong about what the nature of the story is, writer failed to hint it, but he wasn’t supposed to!!!
The argument is the game’s description. Well actually the non-description!!! It doesn’t say the story is a lighthearted love story so what we are witnessing now it makes sense!!!
Its reader/spectators/players fault!!!
Cause no one knows authors intent. Even more when the story is not completed.

Authors intent

Well a random dude named Jorje Luis Borges once quoted about artists (authors) intent

“In art there is nothing more secondary than the artist’s intent”.

Well no one actually gives a ff about an artist’s intent. Cause he may be incapable of delivering it (a common case). Or he may be capable of delivering and yet the outcome is bad or average (a common case). Or he may be capable of delivering and the outcome is outstanding (a rare case)

What only maters is the spectators/readers/player intent and understanding.

A scripted not published “100 years of of loneliness” doesn’t even exists in any form, regardless the authors intent and understanding.
Its people’s intent and understanding that make it a masterpiece.
And the reader has every right it to judge it when going from one chapter to another.

So what’s the core of the argument(?)

That someone is questioning authors authority to write his story. Misleading and elementary. It’s his absolute right to do so.

What is constantly denied/questioned is spectators/reader/authority to have his own understanding and intent. The poster acknowledges you are allowed to but its secondary to the authors authority.

You can but actually you can’t criticize a story progressing chapter after chapter. Its faulted

Someone made an argument, few days ago, in this thread that “you can’t leave a movie theater at the 30th min of a movie and rate it.
The parody element in the initial argument was that the poster had already left the theater and rated the movie. By rating HS with a 5/5 after the release of 0.55.
So I guess the true nature of his argument was “that you can’t leave a movie theater at the 30th min of the movie and rate it badly. But for sure you can leave the theater and rate it as a masterpiece.”
The parody element in the latter edition of the same argument, is that in order to disguise its true nature being same to the initials one, had to carry so many worlds, so many acknowledgements yet so many “but”s , so many irrelevant references to deliver the same outcome….


So it’s within the absolute spectators authority to leave a movie in the 30th min and rate it bad. In the same way its within his absolute authority to leave the movie and rate it as a masterpiece. In the same way someone can stay in the theater and see where this is going. While has already made his mind of what he has already seen and his own understanding or expectation of where the story is going.

We are at the intermediate atm. Waiting for the movie to continue. Debating and criticizing what we have already seen.

A dude is standing up. He himself has already rated the current content. He has already found no major faults in the story. He gets it how people didn’t like the story’s u turn but it’s actually no story’s fault. It’s their fault. Has already stated that he himself likes the story’s u turn. And then starts lecturing about “authors intent”.

Again no one gives a ff about authors intent. Author intent, understanding and author authority it only matters in the making. And any already formed piece of art its nothing until exposed.
And when exposed creator has zero authority towards its creation.

PTOLEMY AND GAMESGLORY HAVE ZERO TRUE AUTHORITY TOWARDS 0.60.
Its within readers or players authority. Even their opinion towards the part of story released isn’t more or evenly important than rest of opinions.


It's peoples understanding, intent and peoples authority that only matters. It’s called criticism.
Criticism is proved valid or otherwise through arguments. And countered through argument.

Cant counter criticism by forming a non-existing frame, constructed out of dune, lotr, dr who, authors intent, thin air and straw in order to ad hoc question/deny peoples authority.

It isn’t even a straw man’s strewing about case.

Its parody at its finest.

PS. Had to revamp my posting cause the initial was taken down. I hope it stays up this time.

 

[Walter Victor]

Its parody at its finest.

Jonathan Swift tips his hat to his superior.

 

[troll822]

So... any news about what we can expect in the next update? I saw in Patreon things are going well for them over there and things are ahead of schedule etc etc.

I am not interested in answers of "this is a piece of crap now, why would you care!?" or theories for the endings but more like teasers for what is to come.

 

[tk99]

Damn ... If I would only be able to enjoy the game, not forecasting the story, projecting my sick/worried/PC view of the story ....
Oh, wait ... I can


Just enjoing it, and if I don't like it press ctrl/del.

After what I have seen from PTOLEMY, this will happen sooner or later.
But perhaps he proves me wrong?

Guess I have to wait and see

 

[gr33nappleboy]

So... any news about what we can expect in the next update? I saw in Patreon things are going well for them over there and things are ahead of schedule etc etc.

I am not interested in answers of "this is a piece of crap now, why would you care!?" or theories for the endings but more like teasers for what is to come.

Interested in finding out myself