VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[Quetzzz]

though in the end those choices don't matter that much (or perhaps at all; it's been a while)

You only need 10 points with Haley to get her 'good' ending. While it's possible to earn negative points (mostly due to inaction), it's highly unlikely to accidentally miss this ending, unless the player constantly picks obvious "I don't care about her"-type choices.

 

[Segnbora]

My remark about having the game happen in a setting where it's legal, was mostly in context of letting the story focus on the social aspects of the taboo relationship, without that extra baggage. After all, I imagine a brother/sister couple won't say (at first) “we can't because it's illegal”, instead of “we can't because what if x found out.” The social aspect always hits first, the legal aspect is more of a practicality, a concern for later.

While I fully agree with that, I also think very few incest games actually confront that objection. They might nurse the "sis/mom/dad/whoever can't see us" objection for a while, but the MC is always immediately DTF and so, fairly quickly, are all the relatives. At which point the inevitable harem becomes, well, inevitable.

I think the core of my objection to this has little to do with incest as the context and more to do with the lack of any actual impediment to the sex that's going to happen. There are very, very few games in which there's a simple "two people decide to have sex" story because that's the opposite of interesting, and if that's all we want about 2/3 of porn depicts two people who decide they want to fuck, they fuck, and everything's fine. Games almost always introduce some sort of hurdle (incest, extramarital sex, the mafia, zillions of deceased fathers) and a fetishistic goal (incest, assembling a harem, banging your teacher, D/s or BDSM, minotaurs, whatever) because the implied difficulty...whether or not it's actually difficult in the gameplay...is a huge part of the appeal of sex that mainstream porn can't always legally depict.

The worst porn I've ever seen is Free Use porn. While it's true that these are actors paid to have sex on camera, and that no matter the script I'm well aware they're going to have sex on camera, the complete lack of any barrier or impediment is such a turnoff.

I think, the main aspect of the incest kink, is the actual transformation of a Platonic love to a romantic love (which would be why step-relationships still work). And with father/daughter, that of a caretaker being seduced by his charge.

The thing is, I fully understand sibling incest even in a real-world setting. (I say this as an only child, mind.) You're with this person all the time, you hit puberty (and encounter all those surging hormones) at roughly contiguous times, you share rooms and experiences, you've probably seen each other naked or at least barely clothed, other people are scary but you have a reasonable expectation of trusting your sibling, you have age-typical desires, and the other person's right there, feeling all the same things you're feeling. I don't think they usually need a great deal of psychoanalysis save for the guilt/shame/whatever in the aftermath...which is one of the ways Haley's Story fucked up, because introducing Klaus meant that they did need to interrogate Haley's psychology, and they punted.

I think that most generational incest stories rely entirely on reverse sexual imprinting (a/k/a the Westermarck effect) by dumping someone into a home for the first time...whether that be sisters plus mom, or a father meeting his daughters for the first time...because it's so much easier than the more difficult work of making those relationships work without that particular crutch. I know (very well) about two siblings who had a thing and managed to get past it and are still close (but not sexual), and I know of two father-daughter relationships that happened within solid families...one of which turned out okay, the other of which turned out as horribly as most might expect. The latter is never going to be a game, or at least not one that anyone would play. But the other two might. (There was a very, very brief time when I wondered if Haley's dad might've been a different person than he ended up being.)

(Dating my Daughter falls in to this trap, I think. With the D becoming sexually interested in other people, even seeing sex as a reward for a good deed by a man she's interested in.)

Oh, I have so many problems with DMD...as a game, as a story, and as some sort of exemplar of generational incest. But to be honest, my only problem with Dee & Martin was that, by the time they finally pulled that trigger, a majority of the dev team was against doing it, and so they wrote a wretched caricature of...well, a lot of things. There was a much, much better way to write that whole optional sidequest, and they weren't capable of it. My biggest complaints about DMD remains the ones I've had since early in Chapter 1: Dad is a creep and a groomer, his daughter is an idiot, and none of them are able to write functioning human beings.

Concerning Haley's Story, I think this game somewhat subverts the incest trope in AVN because it'll usually be the male/MC who will pine after his sister first.

Which is one of the biggest reasons I liked it from the start. Haley's the aggressor. (Also the brat.) Her brother goes along until she pushes the wrong buttons, which instigates the whole D/s sub-narrative, but the idea that the male protagonist/MC isn't the perv pursuing his hopelessly naïve sister, but rather the recipient of her interest, was (frankly), hot alongside being fascinating.

And finally, speaking from my own experience, I watch incest porn because it typically features body types I like. I don't think it's far-fetched that this can cause a reverse association, where subconsciously, 'incest' just becomes a synonym for “imagery I can get off to.”

And, frankly, that's probably another reason I struggle with it. I don't really care for realistic MILF bodies, to the extent that some games depict that; I don't mind the huge boobs unless they're truly parodic, but the massive asses are a turnoff. But lolis are a hard limit for me, just as much as real porn or scat. So, for example, I can enjoy Sisterly Lust (while greatly preferring Bella to Susan), because all those women have reasonable bodies, but I've always had a hard time with Parental Love, because Ava's simply too young for me. Even un-modded. I doubt I could play that version.

 

[Quetzzz]

While I fully agree with that, I also think very few incest games actually confront that objection. They might nurse the "sis/mom/dad/whoever can't see us" objection for a while, but the MC is always immediately DTF and so, fairly quickly, are all the relatives. At which point the inevitable harem becomes, well, inevitable.

Very true, which is a large reason why I want to see a game really explore these aspects.
"A Petal Among Thorns" is a great example of how a good story can enhance a father/daughter romance. There's a lot of seduction, push & pull, characters actually talking things out, and a slow escalation of the relationship. This, due to the MC (father) resisting what his daughter wants, and fighting with the responsibility he has over her, and on the daughter's end being inexperienced. But this is one incest game out of so many, and I'd love to see more of them being serious about the story they're telling.
Mind you, I don't only think that about incest specifically. AVN that explore depression, trauma, even the intricacies of a harem would be interesting for me to play.

I think we're of the same mind on this.

which is one of the ways Haley's Story fucked up, because introducing Klaus meant that they did need to interrogate Haley's psychology, and they punted.

Absolutely!

I think that most generational incest stories rely entirely on reverse sexual imprinting (a/k/a the Westermarck effect) by dumping someone into a home for the first time

Agreed. I do think this is partly for practical reasons. Suppose a game features an F/D incest story where they were constantly in the same household, then the writer would need to convince the player that the daughter wasn't groomed. (Or not, I don't judge, as long as it doesn't involve minors.) I think a good writer can make that work, but I also think most creators here are visual artists first, writers second (I say this without judgement. I'm not a talented writer, nor a visual artist.)

In the case of B/S incest, certainly involving twins, I think it's easier to avoid the Westermarck effect entirely.

Which is one of the biggest reasons I liked it from the start. Haley's the aggressor. (Also the brat.) Her brother goes along until she pushes the wrong buttons, which instigates the whole D/s sub-narrative, but the idea that the male protagonist/MC isn't the perv pursuing his hopelessly naïve sister, but rather the recipient of her interest, was (frankly), hot alongside being fascinating.

I also agree with this. The sister coming on to him was hot. But as soon as this happened, the story had already messed up (for me) by forcing the MC in a relationship. The D/s subplot went nowhere either, I think there are 2 scenes where the MC is actually dominant sexually? With such a strong brat as Haley is, I would've loved to see some Tamer qualities in the MC. Her brother being the only one able to tame her, would've been sexy. (And, this in itself could have been a driving force for Haley to pursue him sexually.)

And, frankly, that's probably another reason I struggle with it. I don't really care for realistic MILF bodies, to the extent that some games depict that; I don't mind the huge boobs unless they're truly parodic, but the massive asses are a turnoff. But lolis are a hard limit for me, just as much as real porn or scat. So, for example, I can enjoy Sisterly Lust (while greatly preferring Bella to Susan), because all those women have reasonable bodies, but I've always had a hard time with Parental Love, because Ava's simply too young for me. Even un-modded. I doubt I could play that version.

I've played Parental Love, first un-modded then modded. Story-wise, I liked the modded version more. But yeah... loli, and any lack of real introspection or discussion. The mother becomes a cuckqueen overnight and thinks everything the MC is doing is fine. I still found it thought-provoking, but this was elicited by the content of the game, not its story.
I don't necessarily have an issue with Ava's body type, if it has adult features like hip-to-waist ratio, and a grown-up's face... And it helps if the game says she's at least 18, and she behaves like it.

Concerning Sisterly Lust, we're of the same mind. Susan doesn't appeal to me (or appeals to me the least), regardless of her FemDom content.

Stranded in Space has interesting body types, and although most LIs weren't visually appealing to me, I still appreciated that the women with large breasts were thicker overall. So no "bimbos"; stick figures with a huge rack and large ass. One of the oldest LIs also has the smallest breasts, which, I think, was nice. (I'm not a big fan of the game itself, but I can appreciate those decisions.)

 

[Segnbora]

"A Petal Among Thorns" is a great example of how a good story can enhance a father/daughter romance.

Haven't played that one, but looking at the sample images, it might not be in my wheelhouse.

Suppose a game features an F/D incest story where they were constantly in the same household, then the writer would need to convince the player that the daughter wasn't groomed.

Well, good. Convince me. Make the daughter the instigator if it's easier (which it would be, and which would also be so much hotter). The father in DMD was the worst sort of groomer: an inadvertent, fumbling, but relentless one. Depicting someone who was in more of a grey area would at least be interesting. Creepy, for sure. Make it so I'm not sure these two should end up together. And then convince me otherwise.

I think a good writer can make that work, but I also think most creators here are visual artists first, writers second (I say this without judgement. I'm not a talented writer, nor a visual artist.)

And that probably has a lot to do with how I view these things, because I'm a professional and published writer and have zero talent in any of the other necessary disciplines (I mean, I used to be able to program in about five languages, but none of them were ever Python).

In the case of B/S incest, certainly involving twins, I think it's easier to avoid the Westermarck effect entirely.

Yes, for all the reasons I mentioned. Generational requires more work, and virtually no one wants to do that work.

The D/s subplot went nowhere either, I think there are 2 scenes where the MC is actually dominant sexually?

Oh god, that. I totally believed Haley was a sub. A bratty sub, but a sub. The MC, however, was never a dom, and was incapable of being a dom.

Why anyone would write that into a narrative as a core element, in which one key character needed something and the other key character was incapable of providing it...

And it helps if the game says she's at least 18, and she behaves like it.

Does it? Not my memory, but again...it just creeped me out.

Stranded in Space

I've never even heard of that game. I'll check it out.

 

[DA22]

Haven't played that one, but looking at the sample images, it might not be in my wheelhouse.


Well, good. Convince me. Make the daughter the instigator if it's easier (which it would be, and which would also be so much hotter). The father in DMD was the worst sort of groomer: an inadvertent, fumbling, but relentless one. Depicting someone who was in more of a grey area would at least be interesting. Creepy, for sure. Make it so I'm not sure these two should end up together. And then convince me otherwise.


And that probably has a lot to do with how I view these things, because I'm a professional and published writer and have zero talent in any of the other necessary disciplines (I mean, I used to be able to program in about five languages, but none of them were ever Python).


Yes, for all the reasons I mentioned. Generational requires more work, and virtually no one wants to do that work.


Oh god, that. I totally believed Haley was a sub. A bratty sub, but a sub. The MC, however, was never a dom, and was incapable of being a dom.

Why anyone would write that into a narrative as a core element, in which one key character needed something and the other key character was incapable of providing it...


Does it? Not my memory, but again...it just creeped me out.


I've never even heard of that game. I'll check it out.

I will not say too much about the intergenerational whether M/S or F/D, but I also think one of the problems there is fans and devs like the protagonists to be quite innocent most of time. The problem with that is though it either makes chars childish and act in an age inappropriate way (like come on how many 17 yo women or men do you know that never had a date or a kiss yet or not been in at least one relationship sexual or not) or we get for example a son at20 suddenly getting a stiffy for mom, while nothing really changed in their relationship. It just makes no sense that someone that has been around you for years and you find physically attractive would only give you such a reaction when you are legally adult ......

If we are to believe something changes suddenly ( or maybe not disbelieve too hard) either something really shocking needs to happen that changes their relationship or it has been building up likely for at least a year or 5. Acting as if people do not have sexual feelings or emotions and/or experiences before they become of legal age just makes things unbelievable or in case of a young adult due to way they act makes it feel rapey/scummy. Whether you like picture perfect or not, but at least with that oldest daughter it made sense and did not feel like taking advantage.

 

[Yngling]

That you personally find it hot doesn't "prove" a thing, you know. You'd need a properly written poll, which you don't have. I couched my observation as an unsubstantiated opinion. That's what yours is, as well.

Not really. Desert Stalker is a pretty popular game in which the incest (real or step, depending on patch, both are canon) is one of the main focusses. It's popularity proves that it's more than just my opinion. If people hated the game, or the way incest is portrayed in it, it would have had plenty of backlash and would not have been so popular.

But anyway, I am not trying to be antagonistic and apologize if I came across as such. Perhaps I shouldn't have written "proves you wrong" but given Desert Stalkers content and popularity I do think that kind of portrayal of incest can be appealing as well.

I know of two father-daughter relationships that happened within solid families...one of which turned out okay

Could you perhaps elaborate on what you mean by "okay"?

For some reason I find it more possible if siblings just grow out of it compared to parents. After all, adolescense is a period where people try out different things and grow out of many of them. But for fathers it is difficult to let go, and I guess even more so if sex and/or romance are involved.

Haven't played that one, but looking at the sample images, it might not be in my wheelhouse.

Sample images aside (in the game they have been redone to make them a bit less cartoonish) I do think this game may be for you. Even if the art style isn't for you I think the story will be.

I think it's one of the few games which make a F/D relationship work without being creepy. The other games in the series become a bit far-fetched in my opinion and too much harem (of which I am not a big fan) but A Petal Among Thorns is really good.

 

[Quetzzz]

Haven't played that one, but looking at the sample images, it might not be in my wheelhouse.

A game I fell in love with due to its story and writing (and not shying away from adult emotional themes) is Wicked Choices, it does include some incest, but it's not the main focus of the story.
If a good story and characterization is what you're looking for, either of my two suggestions would work (IMO). But I also understand that if the game isn't appealing visually to you, then you might as well go read a book.

Well, good. Convince me. Make the daughter the instigator if it's easier (which it would be, and which would also be so much hotter). The father in DMD was the worst sort of groomer: an inadvertent, fumbling, but relentless one. Depicting someone who was in more of a grey area would at least be interesting. Creepy, for sure. Make it so I'm not sure these two should end up together. And then convince me otherwise.

Exactly! This is one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to the 2nd Wicked Choices game (Bed Chambers). It will be a game about NTR, but not a typical NTR game. Imagine being an MC who becomes disabled, and now has to navigate his relationship being impotent. Will he allow his wife to seek pleasure elsewhere, how far will he take it? What does she want and need? I think there's a real story here, and an emotional journey to take. I detest NTR, don't get me wrong. At least the way it's typically done (as a subset of FemDom). But give me a believable story and characterization, let me crawl into the MC's skin, and see what makes him tick... And I could love this game.

And that probably has a lot to do with how I view these things, because I'm a professional and published writer and have zero talent in any of the other necessary disciplines (I mean, I used to be able to program in about five languages, but none of them were ever Python).

To be fair, depending on how complex you see the game, not a lot of Python knowledge is needed. I've looked at the code of quite a few games, and except for minigames, the core functions (choices/pathing) aren't that complex at all. Rendering scenes and animations, on the other hand, can become very complex, time-consuming and expensive regarding assets.

Does it? Not my memory, but again...it just creeped me out.

Nooooo! Sorry, I probably wasn't clear. She isn't. I meant that I don't mind seeing characters with Ava's body type. Small and thin can be sexy, but I'd also need the adult features to be present.

 

[Quetzzz]

I will not say too much about the intergenerational whether M/S or F/D, but I also think one of the problems there is fans and devs like the protagonists to be quite innocent most of time. The problem with that is though it either makes chars childish and act in an age inappropriate way (like come on how many 17 yo women or men do you know that never had a date or a kiss yet or not been in at least one relationship sexual or not) or we get for example a son at20 suddenly getting a stiffy for mom, while nothing really changed in their relationship. It just makes no sense that someone that has been around you for years and you find physically attractive would only give you such a reaction when you are legally adult ......

I think that's a fair point, but there are ways around this. Like for Segnbora a protagonist doesn't have to be black & white for me. STWA: Unbroken might be a great example of this. Some gray areas can be good to tell an actual story in. Let players decide how they navigate this relationship.
In the case of sibling incest, the MC was a troubled boy as a teen and when his hormones started raging, he convinced his sister that sexual acts were part of a secret game. His parents found out, and kicked him out to live with distant family on a farm somewhere. He grew up damaged and ashamed, constantly being watched by his guardians. The sister didn't have it easy either, growing up. Now, years later, they're both adults, and she's suddenly standing in front of his door... Story happens. Why is she there? Will there be closure for either of them? Has the MC really changed, or is there just something wrong with him, maybe her being there and the MC getting a chance to put things right, is a catalyst for change? What did the sister experience, and how did this influence her growing up? Sure, this won't be a porn story, but it can be an erotic one in addition to the themes it explores.

As for the stiffy for mom... The MC could have had these urges all his life, but never acted on them out of fear of consequences. Now that he moved out, he tries to change the relationship between him and his mother. Being independent gives him less to lose if things go awry.

Even the reverse could work, a doting and overprotective mother (who is also a narcissist) doesn't want 'her boy' to leave the nest. She's chased off every girlfriend he ever had, and isolated him. At the start of the game, the MC is comfortably living at home, but something starts gnawing at him about her behavior. To keep him close, she's flirty and seductive around him, he can't leave her, so she has to pull out all the stops. Does the MC give in to her? Use her for his gain? Or does he try to break free from her manipulations?

If we are to believe something changes suddenly ( or maybe not disbelieve too hard) either something really shocking needs to happen that changes their relationship or it has been building up likely for at least a year or 5. Acting as if people do not have sexual feelings or emotions and/or experiences before they become of legal age just makes things unbelievable or in case of a young adult due to way they act makes it feel rapey/scummy. Whether you like picture perfect or not, but at least with that oldest daughter it made sense and did not feel like taking advantage.

Exactly! This shocking thing could be the MC winning the lottery, and his destitute family members pulling all the stops to get their gold digging hands on it. A bit far-fetched, but even one family member considering taking things too far, could open the door for an incest plot to happen. And personally, I'd find this more believable than just "MC went away for 6 months, now his mother and 3 sisters want to jump his bones." Different family members would have different methods of trying to get close, and maybe you have that one pure sister who is looking out for you... Or is she?
Personally, like my examples above, my preference is that the situation has been building over time, and the player comes in at a turning point to influence the story.

I've played picture perfect and gave it a good review on Steam. It's been months and I can't remember specifics, though. (I also noted that I liked the game more than "Secret Summer", by the same dev.)

 

[DA22]

I think that's a fair point, but there are ways around this. Like for Segnbora a protagonist doesn't have to be black & white for me. STWA: Unbroken might be a great example of this. Some gray areas can be good to tell an actual story in. Let players decide how they navigate this relationship.
In the case of sibling incest, the MC was a troubled boy as a teen and when his hormones started raging, he convinced his sister that sexual acts were part of a secret game. His parents found out, and kicked him out to live with distant family on a farm somewhere. He grew up damaged and ashamed, constantly being watched by his guardians. The sister didn't have it easy either, growing up. Now, years later, they're both adults, and she's suddenly standing in front of his door... Story happens. Why is she there? Will there be closure for either of them? Has the MC really changed, or is there just something wrong with him, maybe her being there and the MC getting a chance to put things right, is a catalyst for change? What did the sister experience, and how did this influence her growing up? Sure, this won't be a porn story, but it can be an erotic one in addition to the themes it explores.

As for the stiffy for mom... The MC could have had these urges all his life, but never acted on them out of fear of consequences. Now that he moved out, he tries to change the relationship between him and his mother. Being independent gives him less to lose if things go awry.

Even the reverse could work, a doting and overprotective mother (who is also a narcissist) doesn't want 'her boy' to leave the nest. She's chased off every girlfriend he ever had, and isolated him. At the start of the game, the MC is comfortably living at home, but something starts gnawing at him about her behavior. To keep him close, she's flirty and seductive around him, he can't leave her, so she has to pull out all the stops. Does the MC give in to her? Use her for his gain? Or does he try to break free from her manipulations?


Exactly! This shocking thing could be the MC winning the lottery, and his destitute family members pulling all the stops to get their gold digging hands on it. A bit far-fetched, but even one family member considering taking things too far, could open the door for an incest plot to happen. And personally, I'd find this more believable than just "MC went away for 6 months, now his mother and 3 sisters want to jump his bones." Different family members would have different methods of trying to get close, and maybe you have that one pure sister who is looking out for you... Or is she?
Personally, like my examples above, my preference is that the situation has been building over time, and the player comes in at a turning point to influence the story.

I've played picture perfect and gave it a good review on Steam. It's been months and I can't remember specifics, though. (I also noted that I liked the game more than "Secret Summer", by the same dev.)

True most of that, but for example MC would have had stifies for her likely for years instead of suddenly noticing at 20 yo she looks good, while hormones playing up and experience controlling himself and Mom 5 years younger he would not at 15 , just for good reasons not acted on them. Same as that overprotective mother for example you mentioned might consider the idea of taking advantage of her son as long as she sees him as a kid as unthinkable, but when she considers him an adult fair game. Not an incest taboo of mommy but more an abuse taboo, that keeps her back from going too far. (If you overlook the grooming part and more or less isolating him as not going way too far already of course ) Measuring My Cum has at least part of this as setup story, but low hope that one will continue.

Ever played my roommate, my sister? Bit older game and not sure if dev intended it as such, but if want to read into it you could see it as her having behaved pretty wild to deny her attraction and connection to her brother by throwing herself in stupid ways to anyone popular and things changing when both move out to college where her not great experiences actually might have strengthened her need for him as someone she can trust to always care for her.

 

[Quetzzz]

Ever played my roommate, my sister? Bit older game and not sure if dev intended it as such, but if want to read into it you could see it as her having behaved pretty wild to deny her attraction and connection to her brother by throwing herself in stupid ways to anyone popular and things changing when both move out to college where her not great experiences actually might have strengthened her need for him as someone she can trust to always care for her.

This sounds like something I want to play, depending on the characterization, it could be an interesting story.
I'm mildly concerned by you saying "not sure if intended", it gives me the impression that I'd need to read between the lines to reach that conclusion, and there isn't much introspection to be had.

Edit: it has twins. Downloading.

 

[DA22]

This sounds like something I want to play, depending on the characterization, it could be an interesting story.
I'm mildly concerned by you saying "not sure if intended", it gives me the impression that I'd need to read between the lines to reach that conclusion, and there isn't much introspection to be had.

Edit: it has twins. Downloading.

Yeah you need to read between the lines a bit, but if take her background, some talks where she describes her ideal lover and such also into account, some self sabotage is not that hard to imagine on her part in past. It would make more sense as one of the non incest endings for her My opinion though. Pretty fun game on the whole anyway even if I do not like one ending, ah well rest makes up for it and also has some nice humor and oh my god moments

 

[Quetzzz]

Yeah you need to read between the lines a bit, but if take her background, some talks where she describes her ideal lover and such also into account, some self sabotage is not that hard to imagine on her part in past. It would make more sense as one of the non incest endings for her My opinion though. Pretty fun game on the whole anyway even if I do not like one ending, ah well rest makes up for it and also has some nice humor and oh my god moments

I'm intrigued. That said, I'm pretty peculiar in the way I play AVN. If a game lets me, I'll play the story while remaining celibate. I want the story to give me a reason to pursue an LI. From what I'm reading, I don't think MSMR allows this, but it's not necessarily a dealbreaker either.

 

[Yngling]

Ever played my roommate, my sister? Bit older game and not sure if dev intended it as such, but if want to read into it you could see it as her having behaved pretty wild to deny her attraction and connection to her brother by throwing herself in stupid ways to anyone popular and things changing when both move out to college where her not great experiences actually might have strengthened her need for him as someone she can trust to always care for her.

That is indeed an excellent recommendation! I did really like that game.

It has a slight NTR feel to it, because the sister (somewhat like Haley) is kind of wild and I personally prefer virgins, but it was still a great game.

And you might be right about your analysis as well.

 

[DA22]

I'm intrigued. That said, I'm pretty peculiar in the way I play AVN. If a game lets me, I'll play the story while remaining celibate. I want the story to give me a reason to pursue an LI. From what I'm reading, I don't think MSMR allows this, but it's not necessarily a dealbreaker either.

Depends a bit how you play the game and see the relation between brother and sister in it, but only you can decide that. Taste is personal after all, I found plenty in game to enjoy myself, but yeah if do not want to buy in the brother/sister dynamic game becomes more about the brother getting out of his shell with some help/prodding of his sister.

 

[Quetzzz]

Depends a bit how you play the game and see the relation between brother and sister in it, but only you can decide that. Taste is personal after all, I found plenty in game to enjoy myself, but yeah if do not want to buy in the brother/sister dynamic game becomes more about the brother getting out of his shell with some help/prodding of his sister.

Both options can be interesting. I'm open to both, I'm just sensitive to how the game/story itself frames these relationships. For instance, take Chasing Sunsets. I dislike how Mallory is pushed onto the MC, same for Sandra in Haley's Story.
With Sandra, I didn't feel a bond. If the MC didn't kiss her on the first date, I think it should've started a parallel path where the MC gets to friend zone her immediately, or tries a 2nd date. With not being interested in Sandra, it even seemed as if Haley was pushing the MC to stay in that relationship. And, I have to mention how lame that breakup eventually was. The path to it is one of being passive, and just waiting for her to get the message.

 

[DA22]

Both options can be interesting. I'm open to both, I'm just sensitive to how the game/story itself frames these relationships. For instance, take Chasing Sunsets. I dislike how Mallory is pushed onto the MC, same for Sandra in Haley's Story.
With Sandra, I didn't feel a bond. If the MC didn't kiss her on the first date, I think it should've started a parallel path where the MC gets to friend zone her immediately, or tries a 2nd date. With not being interested in Sandra, it even seemed as if Haley was pushing the MC to stay in that relationship. And, I have to mention how lame that breakup eventually was. The path to it is one of being passive, and just waiting for her to get the message.

True, then sometimes that is the differing vision of a dev to ours to a certain situation where considering who her uncle is in this game, somewhat more passiveness might have not been unwise considering his and his sisters employment situation. Think in this game originally only Sandra as a non avoidable option was planned besides only bro-sis and devs partly on reception of her changed that. Whether that also partly led to the lesser endings since they differed from originally planned story could be possible.

 

[Quetzzz]

True, then sometimes that is the differing vision of a dev to ours to a certain situation where considering who her uncle is in this game, somewhat more passiveness might have not been unwise considering his and his sisters employment situation.

That's fair, but following that reasoning, it would've been a practical option to not date Sandra because the MC doesn't want to piss off his boss.
The MC also isn't concerned with the potential fallout of boinking his sister's boss either.

Think in this game originally only Sandra as a non avoidable option was planned besides only bro-sis and devs partly on reception of her changed that. Whether that also partly led to the lesser endings since they differed from originally planned story could be possible.

I've noticed a few points where the game seemed to wildly change direction. Maybe the devs listened to feedback too much, and lost their vision in the process.

 

[Walter Victor]

I've noticed a few points where the game seemed to wildly change direction. Maybe the devs listened to feedback too much, and lost their vision in the process.

The straw that broke the developers' backs was when Patreon dropped the hammer on them about, "Oh my God, there's incest in this game!" Having to wrote two separate routes, when the non-incest route made no sense to them, definitely put them on the trail to disinterest. They pared things back, dropped promising avenues, and ultimately bailed.

 

[Quetzzz]

The straw that broke the developers' backs was when Patreon dropped the hammer on them about, "Oh my God, there's incest in this game!" Having to wrote two separate routes, when the non-incest route made no sense to them, definitely put them on the trail to disinterest. They pared things back, dropped promising avenues, and ultimately bailed.

That's a real shame, I can't help but think about what the game could've been. It undoubtedly has things going for it, and it's sad that they couldn't realize their vision. :-/

 

[Quetzzz]

Depends a bit how you play the game and see the relation between brother and sister in it, but only you can decide that. Taste is personal after all, I found plenty in game to enjoy myself, but yeah if do not want to buy in the brother/sister dynamic game becomes more about the brother getting out of his shell with some help/prodding of his sister.

A few minutes in, I've quit the game... The game presented me with a few choices, but a choice that would've actually mattered "Fuck Mrs. Sollain: yes/no", doesn't happen. I was already a bit put-off by the weakness of the MC (I understand introversion, and wanting to learn how to talk to girls.) But talking to 'mommy' about girls, and immediately giving in to Mrs. Sollain is a step too far. If that's the general tone of the game, it's just not for me.