VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[csbond2]

Merry Christmas Everyone

 

[Segnbora]

But he also does this in a boundary crossing way. I get that he's worried, but checking up on her while she's at therapy? That's a big red flag. I don't understand why Haley wasn't mad at that intrusion.

Because she's terrified that her parents will see what's really going on with her and her brother. She'll do anything to avoid them knowing for sure. Her father is obviously against it, and her mother would think even less of her.

Of course, that's another of the story's failures — all of the endings require them (and perhaps others) to keep their secret forever, including (if you choose to impregnate her) their child/her parents' grandchild — but that, again, is another failure of most incest games. A beard is fine, but eventually the relationship is either going to become public or it's going to have to be relentlessly hidden. It's simply unrealistic.

Again, so many missed opportunities for characterization, to have people actually talk out their issues.

Well, exactly. There's a really terrific, realistic incest game waiting to be written. I don't think realism has to suppress the hotness of the transgression; if anything, I'd think realism would make the perversion hotter. There are plenty of stories on the various sites that host such things that take the subject seriously. I'm not sure I recall a game that took every aspect of the concept seriously. There are better incest games, and halfway through Haley's Story I didn't think I'd be saying that.

From what I remember, Sisterly Lust does this, somewhat. It's been a while, so I could be entirely wrong. The path with the older sister is more difficult and longer, with her love path opening by taking care of her and being there for her, and a submission path using blackmail. (I suspect this game started that whole trope, but I can't be sure.)

It's been a while, but isn't the super-reluctant blonde the oldest sister, while the middle one (Bella?) is the sister that can have a love or d/s route? Anyway, Sisterly Lust is one of my very favorite incest games. I wouldn't say it's realistic, but it treats the fetish with realism and doesn't make it super-easy for the player/MC.

I'm not so sure about that. Klaus definitely had some sort of impact on Haley but whether or not it had an impact on her relationship with the MC or not, that's the question.

Again, this might be me either making things up or extrapolating from arguments I made in this thread back when the game was being developed. But I find it very difficult to believe that a girl already attached to her brother wouldn't cling to that attachment after what Klaus did to her, especially since she obviously couldn't go to her parents (specifically including her mother) about it.

Haley's sexuality was forcibly deformed. That's going to have an impact. Whether or not it had a role in her attachment to/attraction to her brother is obviously unprovable, except perhaps during intense therapy. Personally, I would have loved to see the game ask that question, and maybe even answer it.

But justification why the incest happens would be really nice. Sibling incest is especially interesting in this respect because there are less power dynamics compared to parent-child incest.

The truth is that I don't really enjoy generational incest. Sibling incest (or cousins, etc.) is much more interesting to me, because (as you say) the power dynamics of generational incest add a creepiness that makes it difficult for me to embrace the concept.

I think the question is Klaus was the right vehicle for that, and, in retrospect, I don't think so. Without Klaus, it would have been a happy romance, with good and likeable characters, which is what, I think, most players wanted.

Again, what I thought they might try was something more difficult and challenging. Ultimately, they just threw up their hands and pretended that they'd never made the attempt, which was far worse than never introducing him in the first place.

I know that most people probably wanted a happy incestuous romance. I actually hoped they'd have some difficulties, because that's a more interesting story, and until Klaus they'd experienced almost no friction. And you're right that their parents (or their bosses, or Sandra, or really any of their friends/the MC's lovers) could've been a way to introduce that difficulty without the deformation of Haley's rape.

For Klaus to work it required them to dig into the psychology of Haley's attraction, and they not only weren't up to that task, they actively fled it. Again, it would've been better if they never introduced him.

 

[Quetzzz]

It's been a while, but isn't the super-reluctant blonde the oldest sister, while the middle one (Bella?) is the sister that can have a love or d/s route? Anyway, Sisterly Lust is one of my very favorite incest games. I wouldn't say it's realistic, but it treats the fetish with realism and doesn't make it super-easy for the player/MC.

Yes, you're entirely right. It's been so long that I forgot there are 3 sisters, not 2.

 

[Segnbora]

Yes, you're entirely right. It's been so long that I forgot there are 3 sisters, not 2.

Worry not; you made me want to play the game again.

 

[Yngling]

Of course, that's another of the story's failures — all of the endings require them (and perhaps others) to keep their secret forever, including (if you choose to impregnate her) their child/her parents' grandchild — but that, again, is another failure of most incest games. A beard is fine, but eventually the relationship is either going to become public or it's going to have to be relentlessly hidden. It's simply unrealistic.

I think it's not just a problem with incest games, it's a problem with incest period.

Nobody will accept the relationship so either you move to somewhere nobody knows you or you get a beard and keep lying to everybody.

It's not easy. And that is even not considering how legal it is where you live.

Perhaps it could be an interesting topic in a game. Most incest games end shortly after they finally had sex with each other, but it could be a challenge to continue their relationship while keeping it hidden from everybody.

For the rest, well said!

 

[Quetzzz]

It's not easy. And that is even not considering how legal it is where you live.

In my country, any form of incest is legal between consenting and independent adults. So setting the game in a country with similar laws could take away the legal aspects, and purely focus on the social and ethical/moral aspects of incest.

 

[Yngling]

In my country, any form of incest is legal between consenting and independent adults. So setting the game in a country with similar laws could take away the legal aspects, and purely focus on the social and ethical/moral aspects of incest.

Yes, legality of incest between consenting adults varies quite a bit between countries.

But even if "it" is legal, that does not make it socially acceptable.

Also, in some countries, incestual sex is legal, but incestual marriage is not possible. Which makes having a long-term incestual relationship difficult from an economic viewpoint.

Of course the degree of kinship is also important. In many countries, there is no strong taboo on cousin "incest" for example.

 

[Segnbora]

In my country, any form of incest is legal between consenting and independent adults. So setting the game in a country with similar laws could take away the legal aspects, and purely focus on the social and ethical/moral aspects of incest.

While true, I suspect that people who are especially interested in incest games would find a setting in which it's legal and/or socially acceptable to be far less "hot." I think the transgressive/unacceptable element is likely essential to the fetish. But I'm just guessing; I play (some) incest games because there are so many of them, but it's not my kink.

 

[Yngling]

While true, I suspect that people who are especially interested in incest games would find a setting in which it's legal and/or socially acceptable to be far less "hot."

I get where you are coming from but Desert Stalker proves you wrong.

In that game you can have sex with your daughter in front of anybody, including your wife, friends and the general public and nobody will care. It is still one of the hottest incest games in my opinion, just because of the openness of it all.

Hardly realistic obviously but it was not meant to be, it is meant to depict a society with entirely different morals than ours, and it does so extremely well.

 

[Segnbora]

I get where you are coming from but Desert Stalker proves you wrong.

That you personally find it hot doesn't "prove" a thing, you know. You'd need a properly written poll, which you don't have. I couched my observation as an unsubstantiated opinion. That's what yours is, as well.

 

[Quetzzz]

While true, I suspect that people who are especially interested in incest games would find a setting in which it's legal and/or socially acceptable to be far less “hot.” I think the transgressive/unacceptable element is likely essential to the fetish. But I'm just guessing; I play (some) incest games because there are so many of them, but it's not my kink.

I wouldn't say I'm an incest aficionado personally either. Though what I can say, knowing a married nephew & niece couple, is that it being legal doesn't make it socially acceptable. My remark about having the game happen in a setting where it's legal, was mostly in context of letting the story focus on the social aspects of the taboo relationship, without that extra baggage. After all, I imagine a brother/sister couple won't say (at first) “we can't because it's illegal”, instead of “we can't because what if x found out.” The social aspect always hits first, the legal aspect is more of a practicality, a concern for later.
It being illegal might be more convincing if blackmail (or the like) comes into play, though I think this is a different kink.

Similarly, father/daughter stories don't really go into what happens with a 20-year age difference. At face value, 40 vs. 20 is doable, but what about 60 vs. 40? Harem stories rarely delve into how the MC will support his wives and 26 children. Practicality is less sexy than the relationship itself or the immediate social repercussions.

I think, the main aspect of the incest kink, is the actual transformation of a Platonic love to a romantic love (which would be why step-relationships still work). And with father/daughter, that of a caretaker being seduced by his charge. But, I also think that with F/D relationships, there's a finer line between the D coming across as lustful, instead of romantically engaging. (Dating my Daughter falls in to this trap, I think. With the D becoming sexually interested in other people, even seeing sex as a reward for a good deed by a man she's interested in.)

Concerning Haley's Story, I think this game somewhat subverts the incest trope in AVN because it'll usually be the male/MC who will pine after his sister first.

And finally, speaking from my own experience, I watch incest porn because it typically features body types I like. I don't think it's far-fetched that this can cause a reverse association, where subconsciously, 'incest' just becomes a synonym for “imagery I can get off to.”

 

[troube12345]

Can I ask something to those who have finished the game? In the game, do we just click to Pass the dialogue (I think we also select dialogue from time to time) or are there other mechanics in the game? For example, are there different mechanics like in Glamour and Milf City games? Or can I choose who I communicate with at that moment? I want to know what I will encounter when I download the game

 

[Walter Victor]

Can I ask something to those who have finished the game? In the game, do we just click to Pass the dialogue (I think we also select dialogue from time to time) or are there other mechanics in the game? For example, are there different mechanics like in Glamour and Milf City games? Or can I choose who I communicate with at that moment? I want to know what I will encounter when I download the game

There are no sandbox or free-roam elements or mini-games in this game. You have choices... that's it.

 

[troube12345]

There are no sandbox or free-roam elements or mini-games in this game. You have choices... that's it.

Thanks for answer..

 

[Segnbora]

Can I ask something to those who have finished the game? In the game, do we just click to Pass the dialogue (I think we also select dialogue from time to time) or are there other mechanics in the game? For example, are there different mechanics like in Glamour and Milf City games? Or can I choose who I communicate with at that moment? I want to know what I will encounter when I download the game

To expand on Walter Victor's answer: you have both consequential and inconsequential choices in the earlier stages of the game. There are...IIRC...three women other than Haley where your choices matter, and one that matters more than the others because it essentially bifurcates the story. As you'll see that you will be offered the companionship of more than three other women, you can correctly conclude that your choices regarding those women don't matter at all. Most of the rest of your choices are a basic binary of choosing to be nice to Haley or not, though in the end those choices don't matter that much (or perhaps at all; it's been a while).

Later, you might be given choices but they don't matter all that much versus choices you made earlier...with the exception of choosing which of the various endings you're going to get, which is something you've got to start thinking about soon after certain characters are introduced rather than late in the game. I think that, if you play the game, it's going to become pretty obvious which characters have endings and how you can pursue them.

All that said, Haley's Story isn't a deeply choice-driven game. Most of the endings are more or less good, or at least happy. Getting the exact one you want might require a bit of care, but you're not going to end up in some hellscape if you make the wrong choices. You will never (again, IIRC) suffer negative consequences if you choose to have sex with someone other than Haley, so you should treat those choices as a stylistic/role-playing option. That said, choosing to have sex with certain non-Haley characters may affect the narrative. With perhaps one very small exception, however, I don't think any of the choices are misleading or tricky. I think you have to be pretty timid, or not speak English as a first language, to need a walkthrough unless you're very keen on a specific ending.

 

[Quetzzz]

though in the end those choices don't matter that much (or perhaps at all; it's been a while)

You only need 10 points with Haley to get her 'good' ending. While it's possible to earn negative points (mostly due to inaction), it's highly unlikely to accidentally miss this ending, unless the player constantly picks obvious "I don't care about her"-type choices.

 

[Segnbora]

My remark about having the game happen in a setting where it's legal, was mostly in context of letting the story focus on the social aspects of the taboo relationship, without that extra baggage. After all, I imagine a brother/sister couple won't say (at first) “we can't because it's illegal”, instead of “we can't because what if x found out.” The social aspect always hits first, the legal aspect is more of a practicality, a concern for later.

While I fully agree with that, I also think very few incest games actually confront that objection. They might nurse the "sis/mom/dad/whoever can't see us" objection for a while, but the MC is always immediately DTF and so, fairly quickly, are all the relatives. At which point the inevitable harem becomes, well, inevitable.

I think the core of my objection to this has little to do with incest as the context and more to do with the lack of any actual impediment to the sex that's going to happen. There are very, very few games in which there's a simple "two people decide to have sex" story because that's the opposite of interesting, and if that's all we want about 2/3 of porn depicts two people who decide they want to fuck, they fuck, and everything's fine. Games almost always introduce some sort of hurdle (incest, extramarital sex, the mafia, zillions of deceased fathers) and a fetishistic goal (incest, assembling a harem, banging your teacher, D/s or BDSM, minotaurs, whatever) because the implied difficulty...whether or not it's actually difficult in the gameplay...is a huge part of the appeal of sex that mainstream porn can't always legally depict.

The worst porn I've ever seen is Free Use porn. While it's true that these are actors paid to have sex on camera, and that no matter the script I'm well aware they're going to have sex on camera, the complete lack of any barrier or impediment is such a turnoff.

I think, the main aspect of the incest kink, is the actual transformation of a Platonic love to a romantic love (which would be why step-relationships still work). And with father/daughter, that of a caretaker being seduced by his charge.

The thing is, I fully understand sibling incest even in a real-world setting. (I say this as an only child, mind.) You're with this person all the time, you hit puberty (and encounter all those surging hormones) at roughly contiguous times, you share rooms and experiences, you've probably seen each other naked or at least barely clothed, other people are scary but you have a reasonable expectation of trusting your sibling, you have age-typical desires, and the other person's right there, feeling all the same things you're feeling. I don't think they usually need a great deal of psychoanalysis save for the guilt/shame/whatever in the aftermath...which is one of the ways Haley's Story fucked up, because introducing Klaus meant that they did need to interrogate Haley's psychology, and they punted.

I think that most generational incest stories rely entirely on reverse sexual imprinting (a/k/a the Westermarck effect) by dumping someone into a home for the first time...whether that be sisters plus mom, or a father meeting his daughters for the first time...because it's so much easier than the more difficult work of making those relationships work without that particular crutch. I know (very well) about two siblings who had a thing and managed to get past it and are still close (but not sexual), and I know of two father-daughter relationships that happened within solid families...one of which turned out okay, the other of which turned out as horribly as most might expect. The latter is never going to be a game, or at least not one that anyone would play. But the other two might. (There was a very, very brief time when I wondered if Haley's dad might've been a different person than he ended up being.)

(Dating my Daughter falls in to this trap, I think. With the D becoming sexually interested in other people, even seeing sex as a reward for a good deed by a man she's interested in.)

Oh, I have so many problems with DMD...as a game, as a story, and as some sort of exemplar of generational incest. But to be honest, my only problem with Dee & Martin was that, by the time they finally pulled that trigger, a majority of the dev team was against doing it, and so they wrote a wretched caricature of...well, a lot of things. There was a much, much better way to write that whole optional sidequest, and they weren't capable of it. My biggest complaints about DMD remains the ones I've had since early in Chapter 1: Dad is a creep and a groomer, his daughter is an idiot, and none of them are able to write functioning human beings.

Concerning Haley's Story, I think this game somewhat subverts the incest trope in AVN because it'll usually be the male/MC who will pine after his sister first.

Which is one of the biggest reasons I liked it from the start. Haley's the aggressor. (Also the brat.) Her brother goes along until she pushes the wrong buttons, which instigates the whole D/s sub-narrative, but the idea that the male protagonist/MC isn't the perv pursuing his hopelessly naïve sister, but rather the recipient of her interest, was (frankly), hot alongside being fascinating.

And finally, speaking from my own experience, I watch incest porn because it typically features body types I like. I don't think it's far-fetched that this can cause a reverse association, where subconsciously, 'incest' just becomes a synonym for “imagery I can get off to.”

And, frankly, that's probably another reason I struggle with it. I don't really care for realistic MILF bodies, to the extent that some games depict that; I don't mind the huge boobs unless they're truly parodic, but the massive asses are a turnoff. But lolis are a hard limit for me, just as much as real porn or scat. So, for example, I can enjoy Sisterly Lust (while greatly preferring Bella to Susan), because all those women have reasonable bodies, but I've always had a hard time with Parental Love, because Ava's simply too young for me. Even un-modded. I doubt I could play that version.

 

[Quetzzz]

While I fully agree with that, I also think very few incest games actually confront that objection. They might nurse the "sis/mom/dad/whoever can't see us" objection for a while, but the MC is always immediately DTF and so, fairly quickly, are all the relatives. At which point the inevitable harem becomes, well, inevitable.

Very true, which is a large reason why I want to see a game really explore these aspects.
"A Petal Among Thorns" is a great example of how a good story can enhance a father/daughter romance. There's a lot of seduction, push & pull, characters actually talking things out, and a slow escalation of the relationship. This, due to the MC (father) resisting what his daughter wants, and fighting with the responsibility he has over her, and on the daughter's end being inexperienced. But this is one incest game out of so many, and I'd love to see more of them being serious about the story they're telling.
Mind you, I don't only think that about incest specifically. AVN that explore depression, trauma, even the intricacies of a harem would be interesting for me to play.

I think we're of the same mind on this.

which is one of the ways Haley's Story fucked up, because introducing Klaus meant that they did need to interrogate Haley's psychology, and they punted.

Absolutely!

I think that most generational incest stories rely entirely on reverse sexual imprinting (a/k/a the Westermarck effect) by dumping someone into a home for the first time

Agreed. I do think this is partly for practical reasons. Suppose a game features an F/D incest story where they were constantly in the same household, then the writer would need to convince the player that the daughter wasn't groomed. (Or not, I don't judge, as long as it doesn't involve minors.) I think a good writer can make that work, but I also think most creators here are visual artists first, writers second (I say this without judgement. I'm not a talented writer, nor a visual artist.)

In the case of B/S incest, certainly involving twins, I think it's easier to avoid the Westermarck effect entirely.

Which is one of the biggest reasons I liked it from the start. Haley's the aggressor. (Also the brat.) Her brother goes along until she pushes the wrong buttons, which instigates the whole D/s sub-narrative, but the idea that the male protagonist/MC isn't the perv pursuing his hopelessly naïve sister, but rather the recipient of her interest, was (frankly), hot alongside being fascinating.

I also agree with this. The sister coming on to him was hot. But as soon as this happened, the story had already messed up (for me) by forcing the MC in a relationship. The D/s subplot went nowhere either, I think there are 2 scenes where the MC is actually dominant sexually? With such a strong brat as Haley is, I would've loved to see some Tamer qualities in the MC. Her brother being the only one able to tame her, would've been sexy. (And, this in itself could have been a driving force for Haley to pursue him sexually.)

And, frankly, that's probably another reason I struggle with it. I don't really care for realistic MILF bodies, to the extent that some games depict that; I don't mind the huge boobs unless they're truly parodic, but the massive asses are a turnoff. But lolis are a hard limit for me, just as much as real porn or scat. So, for example, I can enjoy Sisterly Lust (while greatly preferring Bella to Susan), because all those women have reasonable bodies, but I've always had a hard time with Parental Love, because Ava's simply too young for me. Even un-modded. I doubt I could play that version.

I've played Parental Love, first un-modded then modded. Story-wise, I liked the modded version more. But yeah... loli, and any lack of real introspection or discussion. The mother becomes a cuckqueen overnight and thinks everything the MC is doing is fine. I still found it thought-provoking, but this was elicited by the content of the game, not its story.
I don't necessarily have an issue with Ava's body type, if it has adult features like hip-to-waist ratio, and a grown-up's face... And it helps if the game says she's at least 18, and she behaves like it.

Concerning Sisterly Lust, we're of the same mind. Susan doesn't appeal to me (or appeals to me the least), regardless of her FemDom content.

Stranded in Space has interesting body types, and although most LIs weren't visually appealing to me, I still appreciated that the women with large breasts were thicker overall. So no "bimbos"; stick figures with a huge rack and large ass. One of the oldest LIs also has the smallest breasts, which, I think, was nice. (I'm not a big fan of the game itself, but I can appreciate those decisions.)

 

[Segnbora]

"A Petal Among Thorns" is a great example of how a good story can enhance a father/daughter romance.

Haven't played that one, but looking at the sample images, it might not be in my wheelhouse.

Suppose a game features an F/D incest story where they were constantly in the same household, then the writer would need to convince the player that the daughter wasn't groomed.

Well, good. Convince me. Make the daughter the instigator if it's easier (which it would be, and which would also be so much hotter). The father in DMD was the worst sort of groomer: an inadvertent, fumbling, but relentless one. Depicting someone who was in more of a grey area would at least be interesting. Creepy, for sure. Make it so I'm not sure these two should end up together. And then convince me otherwise.

I think a good writer can make that work, but I also think most creators here are visual artists first, writers second (I say this without judgement. I'm not a talented writer, nor a visual artist.)

And that probably has a lot to do with how I view these things, because I'm a professional and published writer and have zero talent in any of the other necessary disciplines (I mean, I used to be able to program in about five languages, but none of them were ever Python).

In the case of B/S incest, certainly involving twins, I think it's easier to avoid the Westermarck effect entirely.

Yes, for all the reasons I mentioned. Generational requires more work, and virtually no one wants to do that work.

The D/s subplot went nowhere either, I think there are 2 scenes where the MC is actually dominant sexually?

Oh god, that. I totally believed Haley was a sub. A bratty sub, but a sub. The MC, however, was never a dom, and was incapable of being a dom.

Why anyone would write that into a narrative as a core element, in which one key character needed something and the other key character was incapable of providing it...

And it helps if the game says she's at least 18, and she behaves like it.

Does it? Not my memory, but again...it just creeped me out.

Stranded in Space

I've never even heard of that game. I'll check it out.

 

[DA22]

Haven't played that one, but looking at the sample images, it might not be in my wheelhouse.


Well, good. Convince me. Make the daughter the instigator if it's easier (which it would be, and which would also be so much hotter). The father in DMD was the worst sort of groomer: an inadvertent, fumbling, but relentless one. Depicting someone who was in more of a grey area would at least be interesting. Creepy, for sure. Make it so I'm not sure these two should end up together. And then convince me otherwise.


And that probably has a lot to do with how I view these things, because I'm a professional and published writer and have zero talent in any of the other necessary disciplines (I mean, I used to be able to program in about five languages, but none of them were ever Python).


Yes, for all the reasons I mentioned. Generational requires more work, and virtually no one wants to do that work.


Oh god, that. I totally believed Haley was a sub. A bratty sub, but a sub. The MC, however, was never a dom, and was incapable of being a dom.

Why anyone would write that into a narrative as a core element, in which one key character needed something and the other key character was incapable of providing it...


Does it? Not my memory, but again...it just creeped me out.


I've never even heard of that game. I'll check it out.

I will not say too much about the intergenerational whether M/S or F/D, but I also think one of the problems there is fans and devs like the protagonists to be quite innocent most of time. The problem with that is though it either makes chars childish and act in an age inappropriate way (like come on how many 17 yo women or men do you know that never had a date or a kiss yet or not been in at least one relationship sexual or not) or we get for example a son at20 suddenly getting a stiffy for mom, while nothing really changed in their relationship. It just makes no sense that someone that has been around you for years and you find physically attractive would only give you such a reaction when you are legally adult ......

If we are to believe something changes suddenly ( or maybe not disbelieve too hard) either something really shocking needs to happen that changes their relationship or it has been building up likely for at least a year or 5. Acting as if people do not have sexual feelings or emotions and/or experiences before they become of legal age just makes things unbelievable or in case of a young adult due to way they act makes it feel rapey/scummy. Whether you like picture perfect or not, but at least with that oldest daughter it made sense and did not feel like taking advantage.