VN Ren'Py Jessica O'Neil's Hard News [v0.60] [stoperArt]

[stoper]

...you should use the term 'enormous' between the best and Stoper. And I think that would not be pleasant, I love Stoper's work.

There IS enormous difference between my work and the best out there. Just saying.

 

[asplly97]

First of all rendering CGs take time. Game devs need to render hundreds of CGs per update per cycle basis. Only focusing alone on CGs to make them look better might end up with 1-2 updates per year. It's a necessary compromise so that story progress with regular updates.

For example, look at devs of CP 2077 they announced it back 2012, almost 8 years ago and they are pushing the graphical fidelity of games but ended up taking so much time. But then again, don't want something like Ubisoft does little to no changes and new game awaits for you.

so in my book whatever this devs do, i certainly appreciate it.

 

[NextQuestion]

First of all rendering CGs take time. Game devs need to render hundreds of CGs per update per cycle basis. Only focusing alone on CGs to make them look better might end up with 1-2 updates per year. It's a necessary compromise so that story progress with regular updates.

For example, look at devs of CP 2077 they announced it back 2012, almost 8 years ago and they are pushing the graphical fidelity of games but ended up taking so much time. But then again, don't want something like Ubisoft does little to no changes and new game awaits for you.

so in my book whatever this devs do, i certainly appreciate it.

Stop comparing VN games to AAA game titles. If you have no idea about game development or 3D rendering just stop. People overestimate how much work takes into creating these good looking VN renders (talking about render quality here) with programs like Daz3D and 99% of the assets that come from the internet. Most of them do not create any skin textures, character models, scenes, interiors. Creating photorealistic character yourself takes a lot of time. These days with powerful hardware, full assets, programs like Daz3D, denoising it takes no time to produce good looking images.

Now look at these two images and tell me how long do you think it took to create something like this and how long to render on a 5 year old gtx 980ti?

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[cold_arctus]

Now look at these two images and tell me how long do you think it took to create something like this and how long to render on a 5 year old gtx 980ti?

The skin texture/skin tone is very good on both of your renders even better than to big buck earning VNs and their lifeless plastic dolls (looking at you WVN ).

Though, the skin texture on the chest on the first image is not perfect (little holes/notches like acne scars are visible) and a tiny, tiny bit of blue veins are missing too (not sure if possible to add).

However, from your two renders alone we can see that you put a lot of work into them (light, shades, filters, etc.) more then some devs do.

 

[iodio]

These days with powerful hardware, full assets, programs like Daz3D, denoising it takes no time to produce good looking images.

Now look at these two images and tell me how long do you think it took to create something like this and how long to render on a 5 year old gtx 980ti?

I do not agree, it takes time to produce good looking images - even with all the tricks in the world (denoising, photoshop post-prod, and so on). Or better said, it depends on your definition of "good looking images".

The first example you posted is a stretch - rendering figures only, without an environment, is sure faster, but it is of limited use in a VN like JOHN.
The second example is more on target. Don't take me wrong, I think it is an awesome render. But to produce a "good looking image" or at least a better looking one, it takes more time than this. i.e.: to correctly pose hair, to correctly pose the feet, to add a natural looking landscape outside the window, to compose a more lively (and personalized) environment around the character --- this all take time!

Details matter, and details take time.

In my opinion, stoper uses time to add details (and there is also the storytelling side to consider, but it is a different aspect), while other devs do not use the same level of attention to details.

 

[Maviarab]

Stop comparing VN games to AAA game titles. If you have no idea about game development or 3D rendering just stop. People overestimate how much work takes into creating these good looking VN renders (talking about render quality here) with programs like Daz3D and 99% of the assets that come from the internet. Most of them do not create any skin textures, character models, scenes, interiors. Creating photorealistic character yourself takes a lot of time. These days with powerful hardware, full assets, programs like Daz3D, denoising it takes no time to produce good looking images.

Now look at these two images and tell me how long do you think it took to create something like this and how long to render on a 5 year old gtx 980ti?

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Spoiler: 2

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Why is her hair sticking up? Guess didn't take the time to sort that out huh? Went for the fingers in the electrical socket look?

There's the difference. As for the first image...no background...10 mins max. Very little RAM used in that image and imagine you also rendered both at no higher than 1080. Lighting is also awful too and 50 shades of wrong. So obviously apparent to anyone with a good eye.

Want to do a comparison...want to try to knock the Dev with 'I can do it just as well'....at least do a fair comparison. Your 980ti is utter crap for rendering, and it shows in the quality of your renders, sorry

 

[Thickgravy49]

These days with powerful hardware, full assets, programs like Daz3D, denoising it takes no time to produce good looking images.

What absolute rubbish.

It doesn't matter what set-up you've got, producing quality like JOHN takes LOADS of time and effort.
There's no comparison between what you've posted and Stoper's work.

Look at the composition of the scenes in JOHN and the fine-details:-
The combination of different sets and use of shaders to make new environments.
The use and placement of props. I've not seen any other dev that does this anywhere near as well.
The choice of outfits and use of d-force. There's no clipping, or poke-through in this dev's renders.
The posing of the characters always looks natural, rather than awkward.
The lighting. Stoper gets it on-point, every single render. That isn't easy, at all, imo.

Sorry, but you're talking a complete load of crap, imo.

Where's your game with the stunning art? I'd like to see it.

 

[armion82]

Pretty nice visual stuff.
but this seems very slow.
Always seems to be hard to find good creators that put content and often updates out.
Sad i see this type of creator have more patreons than others that push more content :/

You can't be more wrong.Stoper is hardly one of the creators that have more patrons.Unless you think more than 400 patrons is a lot.You should aim at least for someone with 1000+ patrons.

 

[NextQuestion]

The skin texture/skin tone is very good on both of your renders even better than to big buck earning VNs and their lifeless plastic dolls (looking at you WVN ).

Though, the skin texture on the chest on the first image is not perfect (little holes/notches like acne scars are visible) and a tiny, tiny bit of blue veins are missing too (not sure if possible to add).

However, from your two renders alone we can see that you put a lot of work into them (light, shades, filters, etc.) more then some devs do.

Well exactly I didnt even try. It took me like 20-30 to setup and same to render with some shitty hardware.

I do not agree, it takes time to produce good looking images - even with all the tricks in the world (denoising, photoshop post-prod, and so on). Or better said, it depends on your definition of "good looking images".

The first example you posted is a stretch - rendering figures only, without an environment, is sure faster, but it is of limited use in a VN like JOHN.
The second example is more on target. Don't take me wrong, I think it is an awesome render. But to produce a "good looking image" or at least a better looking one, it takes more time than this. i.e.: to correctly pose hair, to correctly pose the feet, to add a natural looking landscape outside the window, to compose a more lively (and personalized) environment around the character --- this all take time!

Details matter, and details take time.

In my opinion, stoper uses time to add details (and there is also the storytelling side to consider, but it is a different aspect), while other devs do not use the same level of attention to details.

Well that's just tells me that you have no idea. My point was to show that in 20-30 you can get good looking render with almost no time when I used this software for like few hours. You telling me these guys who gets money for it are that slow to?

And I was not only talking about stoper but in general.
"Rendering figures only" Yes devs do render figures only to make it faster and add background to it later, but you dont know anything about it so..

'natural looking landscape" No one wastes time adding landscape, that's what a simple plane image with HDRIs are for.

Why is her hair sticking up? Guess didn't take the time to sort that out huh? Went for the fingers in the electrical socket look?

There's the difference. As for the first image...no background...10 mins max. Very little RAM used in that image and imagine you also rendered both at no higher than 1080. Lighting is also awful too and 50 shades of wrong. So obviously apparent to anyone with a good eye.

Want to do a comparison...want to try to knock the Dev with 'I can do it just as well'....at least do a fair comparison. Your 980ti is utter crap for rendering, and it shows in the quality of your renders, sorry

That's because I didnt use dForce for hair that takes no time to setup.
I took me no time and knowledge of software to produce something similar to what these Devs do for year now. Just stay mad and delusional and stuck in the past were to render 200 images it takes 4+ months. With available hardware these days it takes no time to render these images. but keep getting milked by these devs thinking 3 updates a year is perfect for this quality of product.

You dont even know how to check the resolution, here I will help you. It's 2160x3840. And again not every dev renders backround with the character itself. You can add it later but you dont understand anything about it. That's what optimization and time saving is for.

Rendering anything higher than 1080p is useless and time consuming with almost no reward. You render images like this (For example 2160x3840) so you can make an animation of going up and down without needing to render every frame. It saves a lot of time. Normally wouldnt go higher than 1080p.


TLDR You all missing my point. I'm 100% with you that these devs render good images but I want just to open your eyes that it doesnt take as long as you think it is. I could go nitpicking every image too. Some of you actually think it takes hour/hours to render some of the images with top of the line GPUs like 2080ti or the new 30xx ones. These days no it doesnt unless you dont know what you are doing with the software.

 

[Maviarab]

Well exactly I didnt even try. It took me like 20-30 to setup and same to render with some shitty hardware.


Well that's just tells me that you have no idea. My point was to show that in 20-30 you can get good looking render with almost no time when I used this software for like few hours. You telling me these guys who gets money for it are that slow to?

And I was not only talking about stoper but in general.
"Rendering figures only" Yes devs do render figures only to make it faster and add background to it later, but you dont know anything about it so..

'natural looking landscape" No one wastes time adding landscape, that's what a simple plane image with HDRIs are for.


That's because I didnt use dForce for hair that takes no time to setup.
I took me no time and knowledge of software to produce something similar to what these Devs do for year now. Just stay mad and delusional and stuck in the past were to render 200 images it takes 4+ months. With available hardware these days it takes no time to render these images. but keep getting milked by these devs thinking 3 updates a year is perfect for this quality of product.

You dont even know how to check the resolution, here I will help you. It
s 2160x3840. And again not every dev renders backround with the character itself. You can add it later but you dont understand anything about it. That's what optimization and time saving is for.

Rendering anything higher than 1080p is useless and time consuming with almost no reward. You render images like this (For example 2160x3840) so you can make an animation of going up and down without needing to render every frame. It saves a lot of time. Normaly wouldnt go higher than 1080p.

You don't need dforce hair to make it look realistic. Again...details...attention...time.

And bud...please...I've been rendering for 15+ years...don't tell me what I do and don't know about Daz and Poser alright

 

[NextQuestion]

You don't need dforce hair to make it look realistic. Again...details...attention...time.

And bud...please...I've been rendering for 15+ years...don't tell me what I do and don't know about Daz and Poser alright

With that much experience it would take you no time to render these images with fixed things you said which is my point. But you are probably one of those milkers who want to pretend how hard it is for you and it takes month for few images. Keep dreaming. Maybe you should just stop doing it if it's so hard for you.
1 or 2 months maximum to produce that much images that these devs do if you work regularly .

 

[Maviarab]

With that much experience it would take you no time to render these images with fixed things you said which is my point. But you are probably one of those milkers who want to pretend how hard it is for you and it takes month for few images. Keep dreaming. Maybe you should just stop doing it if it's so hard for you.
1 or 2 months maximum to produce that much images that these devs do if you work regularly .

See, the problm here is this: You make a lot of assumptions....and know very little. Look forward to seeing your game, with superior renders, done in half the time of all the other devs. Upgrade that 980 though yeah

Have a good day.

 

[iodio]

Well that's just tells me that you have no idea. My point was to show that in 20-30 you can get good looking render with almost no time when I used this software for like few hours. You telling me these guys who gets money for it are that slow to?

Of course you can set up a decent render in no time.
That was not a point in discussion, you do not have to convince me that you can set up a rendering in no time, denoise and photoshop it. It's self evident.

But if you want to render a great image, you have to put an effort in it, you have to add details, you have to work on poses, bones, perspective, and so on.
And this takes time. There's no escaping it. Quality takes time.
Shortcuts can take you only to a certain point.

If in your opinion your "no effort no time" renderings are the same as stoper's, well....... I don't know what to say.

And I was not only talking about stoper but in general.

We are in stoper's thread, we are talking about stoper, of course.
But what I wrote is valid in general - no exceptions.

"Rendering figures only" Yes devs do render figures only to make it faster and add background to it later, but you dont know anything about it so..

Again, of course you can render separately figures and backgrounds and that would save you some time (VNs and Renpy are born with that principle in mind, separate backgrounds + figures) - you are not saying anything new, I assure you.
But that's a shortcut. It could be used in certain occasion, not in other. And - again - if you want a good looking image composed of two or more layers... guess what... it takes time! (setting the lights, chosing the right camera angle, and so on).

'natural looking landscape" No one wastes time adding landscape, that's what a simple plane image with HDRIs are for.

(Simple planes and HDRIs are two different things, but anyway) yes, of course, but you have to be able to use them correctly, for example in a way that maintain the sense of perspective, as opposed as flattening the landscape and being perceived as not natural.


TL : DR = yes, you can use all the shortcuts and tricks that you like, but if it is a no-effort-no-time image it shows.

 

[Thickgravy49]

It took me like 20-30 to setup and same to render with some shitty hardware.

So, using your own numbers, it took you fifty minutes to an hour to produce those images?
That's what you're saying, am I right?

How long do you think it takes Stoper to compose the images used in JOHN, with multiple figures, all the extra details, the props and accessories, etc?

Each JOHN update contains 200+ images.
Even using your own numbers for simple compostions like your example renders, that's 200+ hours of composition and rendering.
I don't think anyone would consider that to be 'no time at all', as you call it.

I think you've just proved what everyone else is trying to tell you...

Namely that, this quality of image takes a massive amount of time and effort to produce.

Prove me wrong and produce a game similar in quality to JOHN in 'no time at all' and I'll glady pledge to you.

 

[xgrotesc]

So, using your own numbers, it took you fifty minutes to an hour to produce those images?
That's what you're saying, am I right?

How long do you think it takes Stoper to compose the images used in JOHN, with multiple figures, all the extra details, the props and accessories, etc?

Each JOHN update contains 200+ images.
Even using your own numbers for simple compostions like your example renders, that's 200+ hours of composition and rendering.
I don't think anyone would consider that to be 'no time at all', as you call it.

I think you've just proved what everyone else is trying to tell you...

Namely that, this quality of image takes a massive amount of time and effort to produce.

Prove me wrong and produce a game similar in quality to JOHN in 'no time at all' and I'll glady pledge to you.

Besides the images he would also need to do the storyboard, then write the actual story and it's variables, work on the game design and it's balancing (stuff like visual stats, hidden stats, etc). and then code everything into Renpy or whatever engine. I think that sometimes some people here think that creating a game is just about the renders and tend to forget the time it takes to do all the other stuff involved.

 

[NextQuestion]

So, using your own numbers, it took you fifty minutes to an hour to produce those images?
That's what you're saying, am I right?

How long do you think it takes Stoper to compose the images used in JOHN, with multiple figures, all the extra details, the props and accessories, etc?

Each JOHN update contains 200+ images.
Even using your own numbers for simple compostions like your example renders, that's 200+ hours of composition and rendering.
I don't think anyone would consider that to be 'no time at all', as you call it.

I think you've just proved what everyone else is trying to tell you...

Namely that, this quality of image takes a massive amount of time and effort to produce.

Prove me wrong and produce a game similar in quality to JOHN in 'no time at all' and I'll glady pledge to you.

I would say not that long. You need to remember that most of the locations are already been set with lighting and everything from earlier updates. Characters, clothes ready too. You have selection of many poses to buy online, clothes etc.
And dont forget that most of the scenes just have 1-2 locations so it's not like you changing it for every render.

For example let's take the last scene in the restaurant. I would say like 3-4 days with everything knowing he has one of the bests gpus on the market.
If you told me that he works 3hours a day then I would believe with the 200 images per 4 months.

 

[stoper]

The Dunning-Kruger effect. Google it.

 

[Marko1245]

The Dunning-Kruger effect. Google it.

this effect is turning into a worlwide problem .....unfortunately

 

[Dark Anu]

The Dunning-Kruger effect. Google it.

I suffer from the opposite of that, I always try to create my own game but when I play a good game like "Jessica O'Neil's"... I give up! I'm incredibly inferior and miserable then all my projects end up in the trash.

 

[stoper]

I suffer from the opposite of that, I always try to create my own game but when I play a good game like "Jessica O'Neil's"... I give up! I'm incredibly inferior and miserable then all my projects end up in the trash.

I'm in a similar situation, I'm rarely happy with my work. And it took me a lot of time to decide and start my own project.
But you should give it a try. You can learn and improve as you work. And many people don't care about the visual quality, as long as a game it delivering on their kinks and fantasies.