alex2011

Conversation Conqueror
Feb 28, 2017
7,716
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Yeah, I'll have to disagree with it both being not "understandable", and a few minutes of earned suffering somehow being worse than months to years of undeserved bullying plus probably a lifetime of fear and insecurity, and a damaged body.

I'm thinking you're forgetting what Yumi has actually done. Here's some of what's actually been shown:
  • Made Futaba cry for fun:
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    Who knows how many times.
  • Tried to steal Futaba's towel:
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  • Has taken Futaba's books and desk hostage for no reason:
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  • Pinned Futaba against a wall and threatened to kill her:
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  • Etc
She even seems to be the main cause of Futaba's bulimia:
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And Yumi did stuff like this for who knows how long.

Futaba seems to be so traumatized that she's absolutely terrified of being a target again:
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If you still haven't came around to my point of view, then yeah, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Agreed on that last part, I'm looking at this as they were both wrong and at the different levels they would be held to criminally (both are criminal offenses where I am and what Nodoka did falls under a higher level charge), not taking vengeance into account as it would also be a criminal act with charges depending on the exact actions taken as vengeance.

I do, however, retract the whole point about Yumi being misunderstood. That must have been confusion with older versions as those are the ones I've kept in my memory, the ones that actually won me over. Lucky me, got hit by the cthree choice, so I'll get to go back and take a look for myself in my upcoming next playthrough.

Well played, by the way. Your arguments were sound and grounded in evidence.

Nodoka knows, she just didn't seem to take it into account. It's likely the same reason she's sleeping with Sensei behind Futaba's back (another "reason to hate her" I don't think anyone's mentioned). Nodoka doesn't seem to see the logic of putting the wants of others above her own wants.

That's one thing I can dislike. Nodoka comes first to Nodoka:
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At least she's honest about it though.

Still, Nodoka definitely didn't seem to want nor try to hurt Futaba:
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I'm sure the next Nodoka event will be quite interesting. She'll either be remorseful, or I might need to revaluate how I see her.
On this, I completely agree. First of all, look at how Nodoka reacts when Futaba walks away in the previous set of images you provided on this topic. She responds in a way that denotes genuine guilt like she knew she said or did something, she just didn't yet know what it was. She is definitely not trying to hurt Futaba here and she definitely seemed concerned about the issue that was brought up in this scene. She's just trying to understand the extent of how she was wrong.

Yeah, i was thinking earlier that you were running with all engines on max.
Indeed, that was an impressive offensive against my defense of Yumi as well, I have to say. It still feels wrong that I ended up taking Yumi's side on this out of any character in that entire topic, that was the last thing I expected to be doing.
Off topic stuff

I suddenly feel bewildered by how Sensei managed the most recent Miku mild-OD situation. His panic level is so apparent that it puts his another issue, that is he fucking his teenager students, to shame.
(Seriously, the unfazed reactions of his when Otoha found out and when Nodoka published compared to this. It’s laughable)
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I’d say with the most confidence that the levels of consequence between these two types of “bad management” are not even close to be comparable. It’s perhaps because this time the consequence involves Io, and meanwhile his chicken brain has convinced himself that he’s the only one that will sink if illicit things get out (which of course Futaba slapped him with her side of reality)
Because he really is the only one, the other side wouldn't get in trouble even if they were actively participating by choice, that's just how these things go.
 
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BlackDays

Member
Jan 30, 2021
449
466
At the end of Uta-chan you’re forced to look at the picture HOPE sent you, so it’s not determined by whether you check your album or not via the menu screen: Sensei is forced to know.
You're right. But it's weird. I thought it was like other messages with an exclamation mark which is why i looked into it.
Both options seemed wrong to me so i omitted answering in my final decision.

That you get to see it in the end of the event i can't remember.
It's also out of habit how it normaly works.

I take it as my memory failing me here.
Still it could also be retconned.
Depends if the "rename your phone contacts" feature ways implemented before or after that event. That'd be a hint.
 

Bingoogus

Engaged Member
Sep 5, 2021
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You're right. But it's weird. I thought it was like other messages with an exclamation mark which is why i looked into it.
Both options seemed wrong to me so i omitted answering in my final decision.

That you get to see it in the end of the event i can't remember.
It's also out of habit how it normaly works.

I take it as my memory failing me here.
Still it could also be retconned.
Depends if the "rename your phone contacts" feature ways implemented before or after that event. That'd be a hint.
Pretty sure only the option to delete the photo triggers Selly fuckery, the first one is something like 'i don't deserve you' and that just ends the picture viewing and nothing else.
 
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BlackDays

Member
Jan 30, 2021
449
466
Pretty sure only the option to delete the photo triggers Selly fuckery, the first one is something like 'i don't deserve you' and that just ends the picture viewing and nothing else.
I'm aware of what both options do, even back then.
Also translated the cypher back then, to know what goes on.

Keeping picture and his monologue, i was like: This feels bad.
Deleting picture with losing Uta aff points, just felt stupid.
So i thought, let's just pretend Akira never saw the mobile pic.

But i remember it so, that you only got to see loli Uta, if you clicked the mobile icon in the char sheet.
Not that Akira would see it no matter what, as part of the event.
 

BlackDays

Member
Jan 30, 2021
449
466
Since i came up with it and i did that because i read that here a couple of times.

Does anyone even know if Sel retconned something?
Some people pretended he did. Though i don't know of any examples outside of the ch1 rework and typos ofcourse.

I'd be rather interested in knowing if he did retconn anything besides what i mentioned and that being relevant enought to give people second thoughts.
 
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Algorist

Newbie
Jul 18, 2022
97
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I said "understandable". Not "justified". Nothing Nodoka did to Yumi was "justified", and nothing Yumi has done to anyone is "justified". What Nodoka did to Yumi was Vengeance:
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And personally I agree with Nodoka, it's nothing compared to what Yumi put Futaba through:
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Yumi has potentially fucked Futaba for life and caused her to slowly kill herself. Meanwhile, Futaba has done nothing but try to be nice to her.

Yumi got off rather easy honestly. Just imagine what Nodoka could have done if she wanted.

I'm leaning more towards Otoha knowing how shitty she is, how much it's hurting and going to hurt others, and doesn't really care because she wants Niki to "make a woman" out of her:
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To each their own interpretation though. I'm getting a little bored talking about Otoha, lmao.

Btw, Foreshadowing:
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Nah, it'll probably be much worse. Poor homie.
I see. Your points are well-substantiated and persuasive. I can certainly understand why you believe Otoha is worse. Moreover, I didn't remember Yumi being that much of a dick towards Futaba. I guess you tend to overlook the bad in your favorite characters (or these may be newer. I haven't replayed the game at all).

Then there's the aspect of the law. Otoha probably committed some sort of battery or domestic violence (by slapping Rin); I have no idea where exactly her actions would fall in Japanese law.
Whereas Nodoka almost certainly committed sexual assault.

I have seen someone mentioning that for us, players of this game, who know the context behind the character's actions, that recognize this is all fictional, what Otoha did is much more shocking than what Nodoka did. While I don't strictly agree, the idea holds merit. The fact that we're discussing this at all is the proof.

A girl slapping her girlfriend, cheating, and generally being an awful partner? Not even newsworthy. A minor sexually assaulting another one, forcing her victim to masturbate in front of her while she sucks off their teacher? National, no, possibly
global news right there.

Sometimes, I wonder if this game has warped my common sense.

Of course, I do not understand the characters perfectly, especially Nodoka. But I can talk about my impression of them.

My impression of Otoha is that she is an immature, impulsive, dipshit teen. These aren't rare at all. These aren't particularly dangerous (unless in groups).

Whereas Nodoka, she's too unpredictable. Her in-universe intelligence enables her to create schemes that could cause extreme harm. Her likely psychopathy also allows her to have no external moral constraints, only those she herself constructed. In other words, she's highly dangerous.

The fact that she considers Sensei, an actual predator, as harmless is more than enough proof that her internal moral compass isn't to be trusted.

In a hypothetical situation, being positioned to profit immensely, the only condition is fucking everyone and everything over (possibly the very fabric of reality, as this is Kumon-mi); I'm afraid of what she would do.

I don't think Otoha would go that far.

As of yet, I'm not sure who's worse. Which is strange, for I feel something telling me I should. Which is why I believe this game has warped my common sense.
 
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fdsasdf_p

Active Member
Apr 24, 2021
801
2,673
Speaking of picture message exclamation marks, I finally figured out why ! resurfaced for some girls but not other girls despite already checking all the dialogues as soon as they came out.

Apparently saving immediately right after doesn’t work; the game has to go through some scene transitions to properly recognize your efforts when saving.

I.e., after exhausting all dialogues, immediately saving and reloading = ! resurfaced; but after something as simple as visiting dorm, then saving and reloading, then your progress is kept.

Well here you go some useless trivia that nobody asks for but probably something I should’ve already known since like day 5 :LOL:
 

Angra Shadow

Newbie
Jun 6, 2023
54
137
Off topic stuff

I suddenly feel bewildered by how Sensei managed the most recent Miku mild-OD situation. His panic level is so apparent that it puts his another issue, that is he fucking his teenager students, to shame.
(Seriously, the unfazed reactions of his when Otoha found out and when Nodoka published compared to this. It’s laughable)
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I’d say with the most confidence that the levels of consequence between these two types of “bad management” are not even close to be comparable. It’s perhaps because this time the consequence involves Io, and meanwhile his chicken brain has convinced himself that he’s the only one that will sink if illicit things get out (which of course Futaba slapped him with her side of reality)
I think it's because even though he keeps telling himself that he is such a horrible person for taking advantage of all these girls, deep down he is still holding onto the belief that he is "helping" them and making their lives better, so he rationalizes his guilt away, but in situations like this his action or lack thereof has caused serious damage to them and he cannot hide behind any pretense or cope.
 
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ccxvidonaferens

Active Member
May 25, 2022
571
698
I think it's because even though he keeps telling himself that he is such a horrible person for taking advantage of all these girls, deep down he is still holding onto the belief that he is "helping" them and making their lives better, so he rationalizes his guilt away, but in situations like this his action or lack thereof has caused serious damage to them and he cannot hide behind any pretense or cope.
Self-delusion can be a powerful thing.
 

DeSkel15

Engaged Member
Sep 29, 2019
2,320
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Yep, she did take it into account when she hid that book from Futaba, but didn't take it into account when publised that book. Does it really sounds like

? It more like not give a single fuck about other's feelings when she does not want it
Sorry, I'm back.
Knowing vs Understanding.

Nodoka knows she's fucked up when Futaba gets upset:
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However, she doesn't seem to understand why what she did caused her to be upset:
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Nodoka knew explaining to Futaba her logic behind the book would be difficult:
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But to her, all of Futaba's problems would be solved by simply not reading it:
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It's just a rectangle:
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She doesn't seem to understand why Futaba is upset.

In fact, Nodoka seems to have done this entire book thing for others like them, those who live for it:
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To her, it's likely meant to be a good thing, and isn't actually intentionally malicious.

Still, writing the book itself is definitely intentionally insensitive, which is the shitty part of this.

Anyway, Nodoka knows Futaba has insecurity issues, but I highly doubt she understands them. Nodoka doesn't seem to be capable of much empathy as she doesn't seem to think or feel the same as others.
 

DeSkel15

Engaged Member
Sep 29, 2019
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I see. Your points are well-substantiated and persuasive. I can certainly understand why you believe Otoha is worse. Moreover, I didn't remember Yumi being that much of a dick towards Futaba. I guess you tend to overlook the bad in your favorite characters (or these may be newer. I haven't replayed the game at all).

Then there's the aspect of the law. Otoha probably committed some sort of battery or domestic violence (by slapping Rin); I have no idea where exactly her actions would fall in Japanese law.
Whereas Nodoka almost certainly committed sexual assault.

I have seen someone mentioning that for us, players of this game, who know the context behind the character's actions, that recognize this is all fictional, what Otoha did is much more shocking than what Nodoka did. While I don't strictly agree, the idea holds merit. The fact that we're discussing this at all is the proof.

A girl slapping her girlfriend, cheating, and generally being an awful partner? Not even newsworthy. A minor sexually assaulting another one, forcing her victim to masturbate in front of her while she sucks off their teacher? National, no, possibly
global news right there.

Sometimes, I wonder if this game has warped my common sense.

Of course, I do not understand the characters perfectly, especially Nodoka. But I can talk about my impression of them.

My impression of Otoha is that she is an immature, impulsive, dipshit teen. These aren't rare at all. These aren't particularly dangerous (unless in groups).

Whereas Nodoka, she's too unpredictable. Her in-universe intelligence enables her to create schemes that could cause extreme harm. Her likely psychopathy also allows her to have no external moral constraints, only those she herself constructed. In other words, she's highly dangerous.

The fact that she considers Sensei, an actual predator, as harmless is more than enough proof that her internal moral compass isn't to be trusted.

In a hypothetical situation, being positioned to profit immensely, the only condition is fucking everyone and everything over (possibly the very fabric of reality, as this is Kumon-mi); I'm afraid of what she would do.

I don't think Otoha would go that far.

As of yet, I'm not sure who's worse. Which is strange, for I feel something telling me I should. Which is why I believe this game has warped my common sense.
Honestly, I think a major issue for those who plan on replaying this game is seeing how the girls started. Yumi is definitely a fan favorite, but since she's so popular, her misdeeds are ignored, just like with celebrities, etc. Replaying the game will shove how awful she was into your face, and I'm sure that'll mindfuck a few people.

Legally, what Nodoka did is "worse" than what Otoha has done, but legality, common sense, morality, etc are all different things that depend upon one's environment and time period. Legally, Nodoka is also "better" than Otoha as well. She contributes more to society, likely understands the law far better, and if it came to it, she'd likely be proved not guilty for her crimes, while Otoha probably wouldn't. Them both being teens would likely help a lot either way, albeit a lot less so in Nodoka's case. While we're on the topic, Yumi is actually the only one that's committed a crime, and was punished by an authority for it. Assault and probably Attempted Murder in front of a class full of witnesses. Luckily for her, she's a teen princess.

Personally, I find both Otoha and Nodoka to be predictable. I get why they do what they do for the most part (good writing on Sel's part imo), and that's why I consider Otoha more disgusting. Of course, I likely see things different than others, as does everyone to different degrees. I don't see being "normal" as others have sold Otoha for being, as anywhere close to a desirable trait.

As for Nodoka, I'm leaning more towards her trying to keep those she cares about protected no matter the cost. Sacrificing everyone would leave Nodoka with nothing. I can definitely see her tossing the undesirables, and possibly even herself away, to attain the bigger "win" though. Nodoka knows she isn't worthy of a happy ending:
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and neither are Sensei, or Yumi. Of course, it'll depend on how things go. I don't doubt that if it comes to it, she'd sacrifice whoever to save those she actually cares about though, including herself. That might be the best ending we could hope for. I can also see Maya doing the same, and probably both Ami and Ayane, etc.

So far, I don't really think that anything Otoha will do, will matter that much in the grand scheme of things. Unless she convinces Rin to kill herself or something, then that'll probably have some affect. I could also see some Sekai influence being teased with the whole "Little Brother" stuff. Idk, the characters are easier to predict than Sel. I wouldn't put it past Otoha to use whoever then rationalize whatever to keep herself happy though. More or less already doing that with Rin.

"The word of the day is: Perception". Yeah, Sel wasn't kidding with that whole thing. Altering the reader's perception "willingly" is rather interesting, and I wouldn't doubt that is a goal behind this work, for better or worse.
 

DeSkel15

Engaged Member
Sep 29, 2019
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Random, but in retrospect, I think Nodoka may have found a loophole so that she could fuck Sensei with Futaba's blessing:
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Albeit, somebody better have been dying, or Nodoka intentionally hurt Futaba:
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and has no excuse for fucking Sensei otherwise.

I'm curious how Nodoka will rationalize this once it comes out. The other stuff I can "understand", but how exactly Nodoka processed this is either going to be quite interesting or quite disappointing.
 

fdsasdf_p

Active Member
Apr 24, 2021
801
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Help! Finished Voice of Vibration and I can't continue Miku's events. Well I probably can, but I can't figure out how. Help!
Miku love > 55 and visit her dorm on Sat; she will become unavailable for awhile after Voice of Vibration so just keep checking her dorm until the option appears.
 
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Bingoogus

Engaged Member
Sep 5, 2021
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Honestly, I think a major issue for those who plan on replaying this game is seeing how the girls started. Yumi is definitely a fan favorite, but since she's so popular, her misdeeds are ignored, just like with celebrities, etc. Replaying the game will shove how awful she was into your face, and I'm sure that'll mindfuck a few people.
This 100% happened to me when i did my second playthrough a few months back, i'd forgotten so many scenes of Yumi being a complete cunt to Futaba, all i'd remembered it as is some minor picking on her, calling her fat at any opportunity, i'd forgotten all about the towel and showers bullshit.
 

JelF547

Active Member
Mar 15, 2023
806
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Sorry, I'm back.
Knowing vs Understanding.

Nodoka knows she's fucked up when Futaba gets upset:
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However, she doesn't seem to understand why what she did caused her to be upset:
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Nodoka knew explaining to Futaba her logic behind the book would be difficult:
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But to her, all of Futaba's problems would be solved by simply not reading it:
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It's just a rectangle:
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She doesn't seem to understand why Futaba is upset.

In fact, Nodoka seems to have done this entire book thing for others like them, those who live for it:
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To her, it's likely meant to be a good thing, and isn't actually intentionally malicious.

Still, writing the book itself is definitely intentionally insensitive, which is the shitty part of this.

Anyway, Nodoka knows Futaba has insecurity issues, but I highly doubt she understands them. Nodoka doesn't seem to be capable of much empathy as she doesn't seem to think or feel the same as others.
Lets summarize it a bit. Your point is that Nodoka does not understand other people. My point is that she uses it as excuse to do what she wants against their will. And if Nodoka does not understand reasoning behind emotions of other people, it makes her actions only worse. I.e. if you know why something is bad, you do known when it is OK and when it is not OK to do it. When you don't know, you would "accidentally" hurt people.

It is not that hard to understand, that if you friend has real issues with being exposed, she would be hurt when you place her in a book. It does not require deep understanding of why she has that issues

PS
By the way, doesn't Nodoka & Futaba relationships look more and more like abuse?
 
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