Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.41.0] [Selebus]

[akselx]

alex2011, geez, you really went all out.

It doesn't make sense, there is no pretending. They call it a visual NOVEL for a reason.

They call it VISUAL novel for a reason. Delivery through visuals always supersedes and transcends delivery through text alone, that's just how out brains work, I believe. You add visual part and turnes into a visual medium.

It isn't a visual medium, though. It is a text medium with a visual aid. While there is a major difference between a text based game with some visuals, like Free Cities, and a visual novel, like Saya No Uta, they are both text based mediums. The visuals are secondary in both cases, hence the word novel in visual novel.

It is a visual medium. Not in the same way movie is, or comic book/manga, but still. Visuals are as important as text. There are plenty information delivered through visuals alone, as well as through sounds and music (to a much lesser degree) in this very game. I'm not even talking about that "port number" or whatever it was. You gotta balance this things. And if so, then argument that there's "too much text in VN" is valid (not in this particular case as Selebus balance things right I feel, but in principle).

 

[ZZ23]

Rin specifically asks you to leave Chika alone until she gets her shot. If you proceeded with Chika before this, that isn't the game's fault. That philosophical point is exactly why the game does this, because choices have consequences. That isn't hollow, that's how it is in the real world as well, except in this you can at least go back and try again. There are no second chances in real life.

Yes that is games fault and it brakes the narrative for a player, it is hollow in game design sense because it is a cop out.
Game first needs to show player that his actions have consequences and in this game we have very little choice and even less consequences so it is no fault of a player to get surprised by this.

 

[Deleted member 1697433]

Yes that is games fault and it brakes the narrative for a player, it is hollow in game design sense because it is a cop out.
Game first needs to show player that his actions have consequences and in this game we have very little choice and even less consequences so it is no fault of a player to get surprised by this.

It’s not a cop-out if it’s exactly what I intended it to be. That is just one of many occasions that will arise in the game where it won’t be clear you did something wrong until it’s too late. I’m not hiding that. More things like that will happen and I’m not going to warn people when.

The player isn’t meant to feel in control of this game and it wouldn’t make sense for me to let them feel that way. It’s simply a story from the eyes of a horrible person who does horrible things and facing those consequences, even if unintentional, is just part of the experience.

 

[Drew Anderson]

That's because his influence is part of the problem as is this other component. They are what is driving the events to unfold as they have so far.

Yes, I agree. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Just one of the tougher aspects of the game to deal with from a consequence standpoint.

Yeah, at the risk of not being able to progress because a necessary event is tied to a character you aren't at a high enough affection with. There are multiple cases of this in the beach event alone, where there are character events for multiple characters that either are required for the beach event itself or are required to get a main event that is required for the beach event. You DO NOT have to do Schadenfreude at any point before Rin tries to confess. If you pursued Chika prior to even the promise, it is not the game's fault, it is not Selebus's fault, it is not Rin's fault, it is not Chika's fault, it is yours and yours alone because you proceeded. Those of us who got hit because there was no lockout when we did Schadenfreude are one thing, we didn't have the warning signs to tell us not to proceed until it was too late, but that isn't an issue at this point. This specific lockout also has the most talk in the thread, so it is impossible to miss if you read the thread. I'm not trying to be mean or hostile, just blunt and straight to the point, but there are multiple signs saying don't do it until you are clear of Rin's confession in all media pertaining to this game.

It doesn't have to be anyone's "fault". It's just, you can't really hold a player responsible for breaking a promise that hadn't made yet and are forced to make to proceed after they'd already done the thing they said they wouldn't do.

In my case, I just went back to an old save and held off on Schadenfeude until after the beach event. Which is what I would have done in the first place if I knew that was going to happen.

 

[Raf-Raf]

One who doesn't know the difference of "brakes" and "BREAKS" can't be taken seriously

 

[Diamond lou]

Loved the new update, though I stopped playing after the previous version for a tad due to the... events jumping to a new level (mainly Makoto), however this update has set my worries aside, apart from getting stuck a little in the latest happy event it was fun and great to see some festive cheer!

Also as a side note my personal theory of this being just a game/simulation of somekind seems to be getting some more grounding,

Spoiler

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[JMccovery]

It doesn't have to be anyone's "fault". It's just, you can't really hold a player responsible for breaking a promise that hadn't made yet and are forced to make to proceed after they'd already done the thing they said they wouldn't do.

In my case, I just went back to an old save and held off on Schadenfeude until after the beach event. Which is what I would have done in the first place if I knew that was going to happen.

It's pretty much like life; there are situations that have consequences that one never knew/knows about. If one knew every consequence of every possible action, life would be pretty boring.

 

[Drew Anderson]

It's pretty much like life; there are situations that have consequences that one never knew/knows about. If one knew every consequence of every possible action, life would be pretty boring.

Yes but if it were real life, I wouldn't HAVE to promise not to do something I've already done. I'd have the option to either not make the promise or admit then and there that it's too late.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to call it a betrayal by breaking a promise you haven't made yet.

 

[Deleted member 1697433]

Yes but if it were real life, I wouldn't HAVE to promise not to do something I've already done. I'd have the option to either not make the promise or admit then and there that it's too late.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to call it a betrayal by breaking a promise you haven't made yet.

Not fair to the player, fair to Sensei- who knowingly conceals his relationship with Chika from Rin if you pursue the former first.

 

[Drew Anderson]

Not fair to the player, fair to Sensei- who knowingly conceals his relationship with Chika from Rin if you pursue the former first.

Yes, that I can agree with.

 

[Silveroz]

Thank you for the congratulations! I really appreciate it. Invites and lust scenes will eventually be available for all characters, I just can’t disclose when as I want their progression to feel natural. But yes, I won’t be leaving anyone out of anything.

Indeed, Ami's reactions are the cutest thing for me, in this game, please do tons of ami events

 

[ZZ23]

It’s not a cop-out if it’s exactly what I intended it to be. That is just one of many occasions that will arise in the game where it won’t be clear you did something wrong until it’s too late. I’m not hiding that. More things like that will happen and I’m not going to warn people when.

The player isn’t meant to feel in control of this game and it wouldn’t make sense for me to let them feel that way. It’s simply a story from the eyes of a horrible person who does horrible things and facing those consequences, even if unintentional, is just part of the experience.

It doesn't matter if you intended it or not it is there. I said in game design sense it is a cop out and leaves player feeling cheated because it is gotcha moment. If player first does schadenfeude then has promise talk with rin then he should have option to lie or confess(this should be "oh i fucked up" or "I'm gonna lie and see what happens" moment ) and have moment of inner struggle and should lead to two different out comes at the beach and third if you promise and follow trough. Maybe he lies and gets away with it because he is horrible person that blackmails school girls and assaults them. Maybe he confesses and leads to something else. There is so much potential there.

My point is there is plenty of ways to flesh it out instead of having this gotcha moment.

Problem is not with the control it is with gameplay loop. You ask of player to hunt down events to move the story forward so naturally they will do events they don't even want to in order to figure it out then get blasted for doing it and have to load save which can be hours behind. This is what stings the most especially when there is no follow up on that event. MC clearly cares about Rin and him lying without blinking there is very out of character and makes whole thing feel disjointed at beach.

I know you are working hard and making updates fast and inconsistencies like these are unavoidable by working at this pace but lets not pretend like everything was perfect. I think this is valid criticism to have and you saying " well that is how I intended it"
doesn't really make my criticism less valid right ?

 

[ZZ23]

One who doesn't know the difference of "brakes" and "BREAKS" can't be taken seriously

It is "difference between" not "difference of" in this case.

 

[Deleted member 1697433]

It doesn't matter if you intended it or not it is there. I said in game design sense it is a cop out and leaves player feeling cheated because it is gotcha moment. If player first does schadenfeude then has promise talk with rin then he should have option to lie or confess(this should be "oh i fucked up" or "I'm gonna lie and see what happens" moment ) and have moment of inner struggle and should lead to two different out comes at the beach and third if you promise and follow trough. Maybe he lies and gets away with it because he is horrible person that blackmails school girls and assaults them. Maybe he confesses and leads to something else. There is so much potential there.

My point is there is plenty of ways to flesh it out instead of having this gotcha moment.

Problem is not with the control it is with gameplay loop. You ask of player to hunt down events to move the story forward so naturally they will do events they don't even want to in order to figure it out then get blasted for doing it and have to load save which can be hours behind. This is what stings the most especially when there is no follow up on that event. MC clearly cares about Rin and him lying without blinking there is very out of character and makes whole thing feel disjointed at beach.

I know you are working hard and making updates fast and inconsistencies like these are unavoidable by working at this pace but lets not pretend like everything was perfect. I think this is valid criticism to have and you saying " well that is how I intended it"
doesn't really make my criticism less valid right ?

No it's definitely valid criticism and I get why you'd think that way, but it doesn't mean I'm going to instantly change an intent I had as a creator. If I so easily bent to things like that, everyone would be pregnant and/or have a penis right now.

There's plenty of feedback I've taken and made changes for- Hell, that's what the entire next update is. Improvements for older content that I don't think hold up over time or fixing directorial mistakes I may have made. But what you're suggesting I do now is antithetical to the way I look at this project. I want people to fail. I want to make it hell to achieve a "perfect" route. The most canonical path for Sensei is being a "bad homie" and I'm not going to backtrack and rework that just because someone interpreted said intent as inconsistency.

 

[JMccovery]

No it's definitely valid criticism and I get why you'd think that way, but it doesn't mean I'm going to instantly change an intent I had as a creator. If I so easily bent to things like that, everyone would be pregnant and/or have a penis right now.

There's plenty of feedback I've taken and made changes for- Hell, that's what the entire next update is. Improvements for older content that I don't think hold up over time or fixing directorial mistakes I may have made. But what you're suggesting I do now is antithetical to the way I look at this project. I want people to fail. I want to make it hell to achieve a "perfect" route. The most canonical path for Sensei is being a "bad homie" and I'm not going to backtrack and rework that just because someone interpreted said intent as inconsistency.

I think a lot of people that see it as a "gotcha" should read this post:

Lessons in Love will be split into three parts.
LiL Proper (The version we're in now)
Dark Route (The mandatory route after LiL Proper)
Purity Routes (Ending routes for each girl that will include several hours of new content for each one)

 

[Skummy Ecchi]

No it's definitely valid criticism and I get why you'd think that way, but it doesn't mean I'm going to instantly change an intent I had as a creator. If I so easily bent to things like that, everyone would be pregnant and/or have a penis right now.

There's plenty of feedback I've taken and made changes for- Hell, that's what the entire next update is. Improvements for older content that I don't think hold up over time or fixing directorial mistakes I may have made. But what you're suggesting I do now is antithetical to the way I look at this project. I want people to fail. I want to make it hell to achieve a "perfect" route. The most canonical path for Sensei is being a "bad homie" and I'm not going to backtrack and rework that just because someone interpreted said intent as inconsistency.

I'll be honest, despite having to wind it back (may even start over again at another date cause man am I drained and its gonna take forever to redo) I do like the fact that it really does punish you if even for no good reason because sometimes life does just drop that shit. For me it was that dread that I already was all up on Chika when Rin was saying this and that I was wondering when all the shit was gonna come crashing down, and feeling bad when I saw it fall around me. In the same way that trying to ahve a certain niece call me by a certain name.

It's startling, wrenching, and disturbingly sweet to feel that kind of emotional whiplash in a genre dominated by "You are the protag, everything is yours for the taking"

We're the villain We're along for the ride and we're seeing where our innocuous choices may lead, and maybe that's to destroying everyone one by one with our 'ignorant acts'

 

[Drew Anderson]

Lessons in Love will be split into three parts.
LiL Proper (The version we're in now)
Dark Route (The mandatory route after LiL Proper)
Purity Routes (Ending routes for each girl that will include several hours of new content for each one)

A final true ending will be planned as well, but keep in mind that any ending is a looooooooooooooong ways away.

I'm very intrigued by the different routes and what they will entail. That is enough to keep me going for sure.

 

[ZZ23]

No it's definitely valid criticism and I get why you'd think that way, but it doesn't mean I'm going to instantly change an intent I had as a creator. If I so easily bent to things like that, everyone would be pregnant and/or have a penis right now.

There's plenty of feedback I've taken and made changes for- Hell, that's what the entire next update is. Improvements for older content that I don't think hold up over time or fixing directorial mistakes I may have made. But what you're suggesting I do now is antithetical to the way I look at this project. I want people to fail. I want to make it hell to achieve a "perfect" route. The most canonical path for Sensei is being a "bad homie" and I'm not going to backtrack and rework that just because someone interpreted said intent as inconsistency.

I don't think you should change things like that as i mention problem wasn't the choice but how choice was presented.
I don't mind picking wrong options but I got stuck with gameplay loop not knowing how to progress further caused me to
do everything even events I don't want to. So it stung when I realised I was on right track and the fact that I didn't even know it was possible for events to crossover didn't help.

Just after that I get stuck again just to find out NOW you have to do every event to proceed over, and I had to use guide to find this out. It really made me feel like a donkey for trying to be smart about my event order.

 

[r3ck5]

A final true ending will be planned as well

Just gonna quote this bit, cause that's the one part I'm thinking about right now.. With how the game is, how sensei is, and how actions have consequences (all the Rin/Chika drama that keeps showing up in the thread), I just KNOW that the final true ending will NOT be a happy ending. I've played Acting Lessons, Kimi Ga Nozomu Ein and Clannad before. I'm pretty sure LiL will turn out to be an Utsuge in the end. Well, not totally, since there'll be a purity route, but yeah..

 

[Raf-Raf]

It is "difference between" not "difference of" in this case.

There you go destroying my jebait