- Jan 7, 2020
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I'm a patreon myself of this, and while I wish people did not leak it before it's release date, this game is created from piracy. In fact 99% of games here are created using the stolen assets of other games and character studios. Not only that, but this game is free. You cannot pirate a technically free game
And if you say 'Well it isn't free', then unless each and every developer on this site including Sel has direct permission to use illusion assets and make a profit from it, then they are in every sense of the word pirating it. And up to now there is zero evidence to show that permission has been granted for any game on this website, including this
You borrow a book from someone to read, you download music online for free, you are pirating. You rent a movie from someone, you are pirating. You're violating the license agreement by using that product for free, without given permission. You're using someone's product and not bothering to pay the person who made it. You don't ask for permission, you do it anyway. And everyone has done at least one of those things
Also, another thing:
And while I love this game, there is a hypocrisy in a lot of comments here. We're on a 'pirating site', playing a game that was pirated to be created in the first place. And people then complain about other pirates. All of you are 'Pirates'. Sel is a 'Pirate'. I'm a 'Pirate'. Alex, you're a 'Pirate' too. Every single one of you is guilty of piracy at some point in your life. And if any of you deny it you're a f*cking liar
If one form of piracy is wrong, then all forms of piracy are wrong. And if you disagree with that, you don't want this game to exist in the first place
So what gives you the right to judge other people of what you yourself have done? You have no right, and no argument to defend it. Judge yourselves before you judge other people. Because you'd have to judge Sel too. And none of you want to do that
Like I said, I give money to this game. Because it's a great f*cking game. And I'd rather people did have the patience of waiting 2 weeks for an update. But it does not change the reality of the situation, and that's everything that had to be said
And if you say 'Well it isn't free', then unless each and every developer on this site including Sel has direct permission to use illusion assets and make a profit from it, then they are in every sense of the word pirating it. And up to now there is zero evidence to show that permission has been granted for any game on this website, including this
You borrow a book from someone to read, you download music online for free, you are pirating. You rent a movie from someone, you are pirating. You're violating the license agreement by using that product for free, without given permission. You're using someone's product and not bothering to pay the person who made it. You don't ask for permission, you do it anyway. And everyone has done at least one of those things
Also, another thing:
There is a reason. Mostly the reason that it would be illegal. You will not see this game have a price, or see it on steam. And that is the end of that
You must be registered to see the links
(Read this for some context)And while I love this game, there is a hypocrisy in a lot of comments here. We're on a 'pirating site', playing a game that was pirated to be created in the first place. And people then complain about other pirates. All of you are 'Pirates'. Sel is a 'Pirate'. I'm a 'Pirate'. Alex, you're a 'Pirate' too. Every single one of you is guilty of piracy at some point in your life. And if any of you deny it you're a f*cking liar
If one form of piracy is wrong, then all forms of piracy are wrong. And if you disagree with that, you don't want this game to exist in the first place
So what gives you the right to judge other people of what you yourself have done? You have no right, and no argument to defend it. Judge yourselves before you judge other people. Because you'd have to judge Sel too. And none of you want to do that
Like I said, I give money to this game. Because it's a great f*cking game. And I'd rather people did have the patience of waiting 2 weeks for an update. But it does not change the reality of the situation, and that's everything that had to be said
- Apr 24, 2020
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Don't you mean "Wide stance in the public restroom?"
You're allowed to express yourself despite what purpose this site has, yes totally. I'd even say that expressing these concerns of yours about the future of the game and the effect it has on the dev is welcome, but removing the context of where you posting these comments and saying that it means nothing is odd to me. I'll try and explain why.
Sorry for repeating myself but first of, I genuinely think that these comments (and the way in which they are written by some users) simply piss people off because of the purpose of this website. That context does matter, at least it does to me. Even ignoring that, though it's unavoidable, it paints a target on this game when assholes see an opportunity to hurt someone else. I'm not saying you should not express the reality of the situation from your perspective, but every time I go to this thread (still, on a piracy forum) to read about users theories and such I see the same type of comment over and over again and it's waaay worse when morals and grandstanding is involved, not saying you're guilty of that, but there are positive ways to express this on F95 without making it seem as if people have questionable morals. You're allowed to think that, but I really don't think it has the intended effect I presume you're hoping to achieve.
A post in the style of "Reminder that Selebus uploads this game for free two weeks after patreon release, Support the developer if you enjoy this game" just like most .nfo's from actual piracy scene groups do. I think that is a positive way of reinforcing it and I hope that you agree that there's some validity to this.
I could see how posting these comments here is a way to make it more bearable for a dev which you appreciate or want to help motivate and I'm not going to make that out to be a bad thing. Again we come back to the importance of the context of where you are posting this, if helping isn't even the point then what is it that you are hoping to achieve by visiting a piracy forum because piracy happens on said forum? What's the end goal?
Then let that same process happen to others organically. I'm assuming that you finding the game worthy of support was not informed by people telling you over and over again that you're a morally bankrupt piece of shit with no remorse for hurting a human being mental well being by downloading their game for free. It was probably the game itself, right?
I get that. I can't sit here and tell the dev how he or she should feel or in what way they are allowed to be affected by piracy. I'm of the opinion that piracy helps in more ways than not, but I can't prove that with numbers and neither can you or anybody else, and it would be on a case by case basis. The increased number of patreons when it's not leaked early are actual numbers, yes, but it's not possible to prove or disprove that the development would even get to that point without it being shared and appreciated in the first place.
In my opinion it doesn't matter how you slice it, some people will chose not to care and that's it. I don't play without the walkthrough being updated, and if that happens to be 1 day or 2 weeks after release it still doesn't matter to me. It's not about patience, it's about availability. I'm not sitting here shaking while waiting for someone to leak it debating whether or not I should join the devs patreon to be able to play the game. Some might. That's it. Offering a service that's more convenient that piracy is probably the most effective way to combat it.
I'll end by saying that there's a way to meet in the middle on this, and I'm not the experts on all matters related to piracy. I am also trying to see yours and others viewpoint in a fair way and have a honest discussion but I'm frustrated sometimes and might come of as harsh or unwilling to understand other viewpoints, I'll admit to that. I'm sure that I'm ignorant and wrong about some aspects of the effect on business, and I wont say shit about how the dev is allowed to feel about it. But I'm real confident that these sarcastic, repeated comments questioning users morals are more likely to have the opposite effect of what your intending. More people would have to say something on this matter and until then I can only say that I think it's highly likely, but hey I could be wrong.
I'll try to ignore this going forward because I feel I'm just part of the problem at this point. I wish for the dev to be happy and succeed with this project, that's my honest view on the matter and the reason for taking the time to at least try to make one or more good points and I welcome you and others to poke holes in them if I'm being ignorant or misinformed.
There's absolutely no reason to believe that Selebus stole his copy of Koikatsu and that's not how copyright works.
Well being trapped in your own personal hell on repeat is bound to make anyone cranky
- Jul 11, 2018
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Just saw some guys talking good about this game but i didn't think it would actually look this good. Is this really made in koikatsu? The girls actually have NIPPLES!
- Aug 26, 2020
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That would be more an actual generalization in reality than a strawman argument, some of us, Republicans I mean, are not as we are made out to be the way others think of us. Most of us aren't politically illiterate, either. As for the analogy, it DOES stand because, just like with this game, the nephew can get it for free by just waiting or the nephew can pay for it to get it without waiting.
This is what is bad about the leakers, they know Selebus doesn't want any of his patrons to do that and that there is an unspoken agreement, or in my case spoken because I actually told Selebus I would not give anything away that is patron only, not to do it. The leakers have broken this agreement and, as far as I am concerned, are at the mercy of Selebus as far as whether they should be allowed to keep their patron status. If it were me the leakers were breaking an agreement with, they would have been gone with no warning on the very first incident and I would be keeping track of who did it as some Patreon developers seem to be able to do. Mercy is not something I am known for when dealing with people who did something that justifies a lack of it.
Claims of full funding don't nullify the threat of piracy nor do they absolve any developer of any justification for discontinuing due to stress or anything else related to piracy. This is Patreon we're talking about, he gets the funding monthly, or in some other cases per release, not all at once where he already has access to all the money needed to pay for anything related to the project. If he was going the AAA route, where the customer pays full price in one lump sum, then you would have a point and I would agree with that point in that case.
I know, I've been called a few of those buzzwords just for existing as one. I wasn't assuming your own beliefs, by the way, I was just stating what happens in general and the phrasing was based on what you said, which sounded like you did think being called a Republican is bad. It isn't the worst thing in the world to be called and neither is any other political party name. We all have our differences, but there's no need to get hostile like some do, not that you are, no matter your beliefs, you've been perfectly civil, something that I appreciate. I absolutely hate when a discussion devolves into names and other hostile words before it has even gotten off the ground.
Who knows, it might get in, it might not. Depends on what Selebus thinks, but anal, like any other fetish, is less a case of when and more a case of if. I wouldn't mind it myself, I'm not totally hardcore in support of it or anything, but I literally have no content I don't like. I would agree with literally any content being added as long as it fits what Selebus wants to do.
Wrong on both counts. You would be correct about being unable to pirate a 'technically free' game if free was the only option, but because there is a paid option in the form of becoming a patron and that paid option is that patrons get the game early, leaking the early version is piracy.
Also this game is not created from piracy, piracy gave it a boost in the beginning in the form of publicity in pirate circles that then expanded when the people in those circles that decided to support the game, like myself, started to talk about it outside those circles. This game is a passion project for Selebus, something even he has said. That passion is what created the game, not piracy.
The assets aren't stolen, Koikatsu CharaStudio was specifically designed for this purpose and there is an option that isn't piracy open to Selebus as the developer of Koikatsu sells it on Steam for the west. That's automatically not piracy. You seem to be under the assumption he's using a copy gained for free, but nobody here has evidence that his copy isn't the Steam version
Borrowing a book and renting a movie are NOT piracy, those were permitted uses on the understanding that they would be returned to the owner, not stolen. This IS piracy because no permission for use has been given to anyone except patrons, in regards to the patron version because that is what is being pirated, and the patron is under an unspoken agreement not to give their paid assets away to anyone else. The actual owner, that's Selebus, has every right to take several different forms of action to stop it if he chose to and he has actually been very generous in not doing so, not that it would succeed since piracy can't be totally stopped.
Now to your second point, no, it would NOT be illegal. Again, this right here is what is making me think you are under the assumption that Selebus is using pirated copy of Koikatsu, but again, that is not necessarily the case and cannot be proven to be without Selebus coming back on here and directly admitting one or the other. There is a legally obtainable version of the game for westerners and he very easily could be using that. You wouldn't see this game on Steam whether it uses pirated assets or not because Steam HATES adult content to the point where every developer that goes there, including Illusion on both games they sell there, has to patch out adult content. The process of patching out content, even with as little a focus as the patched out content has in this game, is still EXTREMELY tedious and just not worth the effort. There IS, however, a price tag on this game, minimum $2 or 2 weeks of waiting according to SubscribeStar.
Fakku is a distributor, not the owner of the assets. They had no right to tell anyone what can and cannot be done when Illusion isn't involved in that decision. That Fakku business was just another shady shenanigan by Fakku.
It isn't hypocrisy to directly acknowledge that piracy, of any content and in any form, is wrong and that is what the comments here are doing. Again, not pirated to be created, you sound like you're assuming Selebus is not using the Steam version of the game, but you aren't Selebus and can't possibly know that. Yeah, we are pirates, so what, that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge what we do is wrong. Just because we do it, that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge it isn't right. I am a pirate, sure, but I restrict myself to cases where I literally have no choice except to pass up a game. I am a pirate of necessity, which is not applicable to this game because it is free after 2 weeks with the only caveat being it is one release behind.
Yeah, you got that next part right. ALL forms of piracy are wrong. does that mean pirates are going to stop? No, but it's still wrong.
Nobody is 'judging' here, the complaints are because there isn't any need to pirate this game since it is literally just a 2 week wait before you get it free. It's not like some games that are permanently behind a pay wall. If it was one of this latter case, nobody would be complaining here. I can't speak for others on my side of this issue, but I already have judged myself and I do feel guilt for doing it, especially when this game first came out and had not yet earned my support. Yeah, I admit it, I pirated Lessons in Love when it first came out because I saw no other option, being unaware it came out free two weeks later until I had already pirated it. I still feel guilt over that decision as I feel guilt that I pirate other games even with no other option available because a game is not available in my area legally, such as all but three Illusion games. I can't judge Selebus because I don't know for sure he is pirating anything. In case you're unaware, using this site is not automatically an indication that someone is a pirate. Some people don't download from here at all and only use the forum functions, I've had a ridiculous argument or two in PMs because some people who do get these games legitimately didn't like me openly calling this forum what it is, a piracy forum. One even got a mod involved in a PM as if that would do any good without rules being violated. Again, this game is legitimately obtainable through Steam.
Can't argue with that first sentence on the last part, this is truly the best game from the indie side of the industry I have ever played. Yes, it even beats some of the games it takes inspiration from.
I laughed way too hard at this. Congratulations, you're the first person to make me laugh so hard I snorted. Thankfully no one was around to hear it.
The purpose of this site is irrelevant to this argument because of the impact that purpose has to this game.
Pissing people off is entirely unavoidable, certain people and things simply existing pisses a certain group of people on Twitter and TikTok off. Here's the thing, people on here who do pirate, including me, because yes there are people here who do not, DO have questionable morals. My morals are seriously fucked up, I see any game I want that I cannot legally get as a target instead of just ignoring it because I can't get it legally. I HAVE gotten in trouble with my ISP for accidentally forgetting my precautions against them when I tried to bite off more than I could chew and went after some big name games like Fallout 4. Very stupid move with Bethesda, I was lucky all I got was a notice to knock it off.
This third section, that's all we're even saying. We aren't trying to be mean or anything negative, we just don't get how people can have a legitimate free avenue for the game open to them with just two weeks of waiting and still go ahead and pirate it. When I pirated this game, yes, I admit it and I still feel the guilt, I didn't even know that free avenue existed because the first free release hadn't even been done yet, but nobody has that excuse at this point, it's been out for over a year. We who are defending the two week wait just legitimately cannot understand why people don't just adhere to it when it is totally free and you don't miss anything in game with that version. It is perfectly understandable with games that have no free version or that have content that is restricted in the free version, but for a game where no restrictions are placed on the free version except a wait, the reason eludes us.
Exactly, part of the reason I still do it is because I know Selebus does pop his head in here on occasion and I don't want to seem as if I stopped caring. I comment to show him when he does pop in that there are people in here who do openly and legitimately care about the game's and his success. Piracy is showing the opposite as is remaining silent about it. There is no end goal because there is no end, I am not foolish enough to think every pirate on this forum would heed my words.
I mean, not other people, no, but I certainly was and still am telling myself that. I still feel the guilt from when I did pirate this game even though, when I did, I couldn't have know there was a free option. As for that last part, there is a distinct difference between just downloading for free and pirating when a legitimate free option is available. I still beat myself up over it, daily. I do it for every game, not even just this one, but even the games where legitimate purchase isn't an option.
Nor can anyone defending him tell him how to feel. It does help the smaller games that are just starting and don't have very big fan bases, but when the developer is seeing consistent drops in new patron numbers timed pretty much perfectly with leaks, piracy is hurting it. That is the case here, Selebus has said as much. This is a passion project, again as said by Selebus, it would get to this point regardless, the only difference would have been in how much longer it took him or if we, the public, ever even saw the game at all.
The last part's first sentence is very true, this is why piracy will never cease in general. I actually don't play with any kind of help, I normally just let the chips fall where they will. If I screw up even one event, game over, I start over from the beginning. That's the part the people defending Selebus don't get, including myself, an admitted pirate. There IS a more convenient option than piracy, waiting two weeks gets the same result and no risk or negativity.
Exactly, it would be a different story if Koikatsu didn't have a Steam version.
Pretty much what Pawel101 said, she's suffering from losing the Sensei she knows, that's going to negatively affect her and that resulted in the way she is. She's trying to cope and it's obviously failing.
Nipples actually do exist in Koikatsu, I'm pretty sure any copy that doesn't have them is the Steam version and hasn't had the patch applied. Also, not sure how good Selebus is at photoshopping, but that is another avenue to add them, though I can say with absolute certainty the ones featured in Lessons in Love are legitimately from Koikatsu.
Yes, going back to a point where you hadn't missed the event in question and completing it. Having already missed it? No, that isn't possible.
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- Sep 5, 2020
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This is only true if the Koikatsu EULA specifically states that the assets contained within the game can be used to create games, and that the creator can sell them.
I would be HIGHLY surprised if that were the case. Purchasing a game typically only carries as Personal Use license -- you can use the tools to alter your game, you can give those files away for free to friends, but you CANNOT sell them. That's called professional use, and that costs a lot more than the retail price of the game.
There's a reason why Selebus says the game will always be free. That's because as long as the game is free, it counts as personal use and doesn't violate the EULA. He CANNOT charge money for it. He can charge for early access, Discord channel access, credit inclusion, etc. But he cannot sell the game, because he does not have a professional-use license.
1) Here again -- rental services typically pay a higher price for a license that allows them to rent out titles. Back in the days of VHS, there were two price points for movies. Home use started around $50 and gradually came down to about $20 once studios realized that the VCR wouldn't bankrupt them, but the rental price point -- the price that Blockbuster, Hollywood, and all the mom and pop rental shops that we had back in the 90s -- were paying $125-$300 per copy of each movie they carried because they had to purchase a special license to be able to rent them out.
2) No, there isn't much at all he could do, because he doesn't have a Professional Use license. I say that with a fair amount of certainty because Illusion has said that such a thing does not exist.
YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE GAME. The game is free. You are paying for early access, Discord channel access, and credit inclusion, with a little "goodness of your own heart" on top. Stop saying he's charging for the game. He has been VERY clear that the game is free and always will be (a HUGE red flag that he doesn't have the rights to sell a game with the assets)
If that sounds like semantics to you -- that's because semantics are being used to skirt around the copyright violation that nearly all of the Koikatsu/Honey Select/RPGM games that have patreons are committing. Because those are almost always being made with personal use copies that don't include the right to profit from the use of the toolkit.
As the US distributor, they are also responsible for ensuring the copyright is protected in the territories they distribute in. They do have the legal authority to C&D and puruse action if the violation happens in the US. Moreover -- they also have Illusion's explicit blessing to do so.
When the developer makes a product for a specific purpose, the developer sells the product, the user buys the product, and then the user uses the product for its intended purpose, they are within the EULA. If it were not the case, Illusioon would have cracked down when they first started making asset creation tools and their users started using those asset creation tools to create assets.
As for this game specifically, it doesn't matter why it has a free option, but it does protect him regardless even if Illusion did crack down.
There actually is A LOT he could do assuming he has the skills, all with varying success rates. The only surefire way would be to not release at all before it is complete, at which point there would only be one payment affected, not potentially thousands of dollars or more over a long time. Of course, he could just slap Denuvo in it and nobody would even touch it with all the performance issues (I'm obviously joking here, even I wouldn't touch Denuvo with a 100ft pole).
It doesn't matter what you are paying for on paper, which is what the copyright enforcers at companies like Patreon or even Illusion look at. What matters is that you are paying for access to it, early access is still access. It's not really a red flag, I would offer the same deal with completely original assets if I were him because it actually gets people to try it. Putting something entirely behind a pay wall will ONLY do one of two things. It will either turn people off and you lose them or it will move them toward piracy and you still lose them because pirates don't count as customers. Selebus avoids this by offering a free option, regardless of any other circumstance behind it. A smart move on his part, Illusion or not.
Fakku only ever got the right to distribute, meaning it was still Illusion who did any enforcement. They likely had some sort of reporting agreement, but since Illusion doesn't care if people use their software for free outside of Japan, since use outside Japan doesn't affect them in cases where there is no international version of the product, they have said this or at least translations have, though those aren't the best source because Japanese to English is a freaking nightmare, Fakku holds no power. Illusion only cares about Japan, like every other Japanese company that doesn't have international branches, so they don't bother enforcing outside Japan, where for the most part, they aren't losing anything anyway or at least they weren't before the Fakku deal with Honey Select 1. Then you add onto that their relations with Fakku, which are now pretty much nonexistent as evidenced by their switch to Steam for Koikatsu instead of a new deal with Fakku, and the fact that Fakku is known to pull shady stunts similar to that based around lies to gain money off of the unsuspecting. They have a history of it, so only Illusion's direct word is trustworthy in that situation.
- May 12, 2020
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Alex, everything I said is the harsh reality of the situation. All of us are pirates, all of us have committed piracy many times without even thinking, and this game is created from piracy. And so complaining about 'Piracy' for a free game is the most senseless thing you could possibly do
This game was created using stolen assets from Illusion. Many developers on this website do exactly the same thing, and profit from it. Sel is a pirate, you're a pirate, and I'm a pirate
And like I said, this game is free. If it wasn't, it would have been shut down by Illusion by now. Why do you think developers use patreon in the first place, instead of setting a price or trying to put it on Steam? Because it would be illegal and obvious. That's why
Patreon provides a blurry legal barricade, a 'grey zone' so developers can still profit from it. And funnily enough it's still illegal, just Illusion likely won't notice it unless a developer using those assets has the audacity to have a price set on the game they make
And I've said myself, if people could wait 2 weeks that would be perfect. But life is not perfect. And it is at best hypocritical to complain about it
And to summarise it, you're using a piracy site complaining about piracy. I'm not entirely sure what you expected to see here
I'm not denying that we are, though not everyone on this site is one, most are. Still, no, it is created from passion as all passion projects are. It would exist, even if in a different and/or lesser form, without piracy. I don't care if it is senseless, if I did, I would not be doing it.
You are assuming the assets are from a pirated copy of the game, this is not necessarily the case. I'm a pirate, sure, but I can't say the same for anyone else without them also admitting it lest I spread false rumors, not that that's an issue on the internet, that just goes against my principles to even risk it. Yeah, some developers do use a pirated copy of the game, but not everyone does. It is available to people on Steam, including outside Japan, which is not normally the case.
No, Illusion has yet to take action against a game made with their asset making software because they don't care. If it were a Japanese developer doing it, you can sure as hell bet they would because that is where Illusion cares about. This is the general precedent with Japanese developers, though there are exceptions and ALL of the big companies are among them.
Illusion is already well aware of people making games with their programs, the whole Fakku thing kind of made a big stink and they DID notice.
Hypocrital or not, if the game gets pirated, people are going to complain, if not me, someone else. I am not the only one who doesn't get why people can't just wait.
I didn't expect to see anything, I've learned from other things to never have expectations. I do it because I feel it is the right course, the only thing that could make it no longer the right course is Selebus himself, but he seems to not be inclined to stop us.
- Jul 11, 2019
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I'm just going to ignore all the talk about piracy, because we've discussed this multiple times already and I prefer to talk about the game itself on its forum.
I highly doubt she's going to get more years.
Even if there were treatment, it would probably be expensive, far out of Yumi's and Chika's reach. Their only hope would be the Tsuiokas. Maybe fellow 5000 year old wizards will get along and everything will be fine. They will run Chinami Corp. together and ride off into the sunset on giraffes.
As for getting erased:
Well, Chinami dying would certainly be a easy way to drive Chika and Yumi over the edge (or over the place where the sidewalk ends, ha ha, reference). That said it would be likely for her to be like Makoto and just reset to a slightly altered previous state.
Unless main characters and side characters differ in more than just game mechanic/focus.
Chinami surviving longer is the next patreon stretch goal