Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.41.0] [Selebus]

[Perniciousducks]

There's no way for them to come out of this looking any way but stupid.

So... they look the Same as the dev who uses tools he has no right to make a product from? Sel commits piracy to make his game, then rants about piracy.

Again, you can see my post above, I think this game is vastly over bloated and pick away at it when I'm bored between games I care about more when they're released. This drama is dumb, pirates gonna pirate. Pirates going to work around their own rules when they feel like it. Also, apparently pirates that make stuff from pirated good are going to whine about pirates. It's a vicious circle.

I still can't understand why anyone would play such a long and emotionally draining game if they know the author of that game detests them.

This one I can answer, at least for me... When I'm reading the umpteenth banal event of tedium that doesn't need to exist and apparently has no impact on the plot or the insufferable middle school level philosophy of sensei pondering existence, I can at least rest assured that the author I'm irritated with at the time hates the fact I'm seeing this at all.

 

[JohnnyRazer]

This is pretty on point. Yes the game has frequent updates, but maybe 10% of the content actually notably moves the plot. Best comparison is probably old animes. They technically had new episodes every week nearly 52 weeks out of the year, but the plot would still barely move in that time. Few would consider that kind of thing superior to say HBO style shows that get 8-10 episodes every couple years.

While I do agree to some extent with the overall message, I think you miss a big chunk of audience for whom plot isn't the only thing that matters. Personally, I hated fillers in some 100+ series like Naruto, but in case of LiL (and some other games) I like the characters and interactions between them, hence for the most part I'm perfectly fine if the plot doesn't move much, but I get content for my favourite girls. So this critique is kinda subjective.

 

[vehemental]

Look. Sorry for flipping on you. But the whole thing just sucks.

I take it this post was directed at me? If so, it's all good. The extent of my personal investment in this argument is $70 - not something that's going to affect my day.

[F95 admins] have to blatantly break their own rule now.

They're free to enforce whatever interpretation of their rules they like here. This isn't the only time they've made an exception, there's a loli game on the latest updates page right now. Just like Selly is free to do whatever the fuck he wants on his own Discord, like banning me there for posts I made here.

I still can't understand why anyone would play such a long and emotionally draining game if they know the author of that game detests them. And it's not for something you can't control. It's for an opinion you have about how much piracy is too much.

It is long, but I don't get "emotionally draining" nor what bearing those have on the feelings of the author.

Even if we accept at face value that "piracy bad," there are a number of people here who supported this game in the past, and may or may not in the future, who shouldn't feel bad about pirating it. He even refunded my last donation, so I'm personally never going to feel an iota of bad about it.

But in other games on this site, other mods have drawn far more reasonable lines. There is antipathy to the creator of the game.

What other games on this site, and what lines were drawn? Again, it's not personal - people were sharing the content in this thread before it was officially allowed. And again, the custom renders aren't being shared here. Why is that? If there truly was antipathy towards the creator of this game, wouldn't there have been more effort to ensure they were being shared here?

Would I support him even if I could get those for free? Sure. Would most of his supporters? Sure.

You and others like you are the only reliable means of support for a game like this. The content isn't worth $5/mo.

But the guy's income was shrinking as his subscriber-only content started to get leaked ever-earlier.

The amount of support on SS has been stagnant for the past 3 months, not shrinking, and he's well surpassed his Patreon numbers given a number of people got annual passes. The only problem is he's not growing as fast as he feels entitled to, and there are plenty of other reasons for that apart from mere piracy.

Weird analogies to racism (and yeah, I get what you were trying to say... and I *STILL* think that was a wildly unnecessary and out-of-touch metaphor you tried to use).

I apologize if I offended you. I couldn't think of any other time when an author blatantly hated large chunks of their audience for some weird reason other than JK Rowling, and since that TERF cunt is still alive, actively wants to melt trans kids, and Hogwarts Legacy just came out, I thought Lovecraft was the safer option as he's long dead.

Maybe Metallica was a better comparison, but I dunno if they merely hated the act of piracy or actively hated pirates personally like Selly does.

If he stopped making the game, would you just say he "didn't love doing it enough?" I mean come on dude. You have got to be able to see what I'm saying here.

If he stopped making the game at even half the income level he's at, he'd have to be a fucking idiot.

This game is doing great and has been doing great. There are dozens of games on here that are more popular but don't bring in the kind of support this one does, but only this dev is babyraging so publicly because he won't be able to afford a Lambo soon. It's not a good look. Luckily for him, most of his supporters probably aren't paying attention.

 

[vehemental]

A website is pretty trivial to code compared to a DRM scheme, and a website isn't subject to the cat and mouse that DRM typically is. Sel isn't going to give someone a chunk of his proceeds every 2 weeks. And he doesn't have the skill to make a competent DRM scheme himself. This is the guy who's renpy project name is "test2" because he couldn't figure out how to rename it.

He already said he was doing it. He thinks it would bring in more money than it costs, so there's no reason not to. Even if he didn't think it would be profitable, he's certainly not lacking in spite to make up the difference.

We agree on everything else. It's not going to work. I'll break it myself if I have the time and no one gets to it first

 

[vehemental]

does anyone know where the game creator took the music used ingame? I recognize some of them as free royalty music, but Im looking for the song titled "Good Morning" in game. I like listening to it, just letting the game run in the background just to listen to this one specific song.

"On a Sailing Boat" from Nash Music Library. It's not on Youtube unfortunately.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[JohnnyRazer]

I promised not to discuss this subject anymore, but well... I am a master of my word, I can take it back

None of this happens if CP is outlawed.

But why should it be? What's the criterion?

The folks who are on here claiming to like the game, and at the same time aren't in favor of a simple middle-of-the-road solution like the one I've posed... That I can't understand. Just seems like lying to yourself.

I know, it's mental gymnastics, but you can look on it from the other persperctive. There WAS a "simple middle-of-the-road solution" - before the CPs. Then Selebus decides to break the status quo by inventing Care Packages, which inevitably get leaked. Who would've guessed? Point Zero again.

I mean, I certainly don't blame him, but was he really thinking that CPs couldn't get leaked? That's naive. And if he was doing them while bearing in mind the possibility of them getting leaked, than I guess this whole performance was pre-planned, just the outcome wasn't in his favor. But then again, whose fault is it?

I'll wrap up by once again saying that the refusal to find a middle ground of any kind is just stupid.

I don't think anybody argues about finding a middle ground, but the problem is - the views of the sides are too polar, and no one wishes to budge, because, mind you, it is two sides that must compromise for the middle ground, not only one (that's called something else). Can the intention (and actions too) to purge this thread really be called "the search for middle ground"?

 

[JohnnyRazer]

It's interesting how in two years it went from this to the latest war.png, mainly in the attitude and tone.

I mean it sounds much more honest and down to earth, while being roughly about the same. I remember being sympathetic back then. Can't say that now.

Oh, definitely. There's just not really anything I can do about it, unfortunately.

I didn't think it would affect me so much prior to releasing anything worth being pirated since I used to pirate everything back in the day. Hell, I've been literally arrested for stealing before. But it's hard not being bothered by people begging for someone else to fork over $5 and leak a game for them because they don't want to wait two weeks. Those people bother me more than the ones actually downloading them.

I have a responsibility as a creator to defend my consumers and my product. And while I know there are plenty of people who would continue to donate to me even if there was no difference between a Patreon and public release, it doesn't change the principle of people simply taking things that other people are using their hard earned money to buy- especially after I've demonstrated the exact weight of that impact on several occasions.

Piracy is inevitable in today's day and age and is the key reason that so many professionally-made visual novels release at a loss. I'm fortunate enough to have made something that so many people love, but I'd still be completely irresponsible for not informing and educating everyone about the damages piracy can cause.

I work extremely hard on this game. In just the last year, I've put out 700k words and 30+ hours of content without help from anyone. There is no exclusive gameplay that only subscribers have access to. There are no additional transactions or bonuses I make people pay for to get a full experience. All I do is ask for $5 in exchange for early access to something that everyone else is going to get in two weeks anyway. And even that much is enough to make some people rage or complain, apparently. I'd be a liar if I said that didn't bother me.

 

[Perniciousducks]

I love that someone is playing the game out of spite. And posting here about the game out of spite. And thinking about the game for spite. That is insane, but it makes sense to me. It's intellectually consistent and honest, lol.

You know, it actually surprises me when a super fan of this game lacks any reading comprehension. That's all this game is, reading.

I am not playing the game out of spite. I'm playing the game because I always hope (no pun intended) that the plot will move along one day, but more updates than not I think Sel has the same opinion of story telling that Sensei has of teaching. He's perfunctorily expected to do it, though none of us actually think it will happen and it's left to his class to try and tell tell the story to each other that he's so disinterested in actually doing.

So, yeah... when he's mopey and throwing a temper tantrum that I'm even remotely a part of, it does make me feel a little better while I'm trudging through another pointless bloviation while sensei stares into space, instead of actually doing anything related to advancing the plot.

 

[dwen09]

"On a Sailing Boat" from Nash Music Library. It's not on Youtube unfortunately.

You must be registered to see the links

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.

 

[alex2011]

There WAS a "simple middle-of-the-road solution" - before the CPs.

Okay, I've been staying out of this one because, while I still side with Sel overall, I did not agree with recent methods and think there was a better way to handle things that didn't involve what happened. However, I absolutely have to address this section of your comment.

Yes, there WAS a middle ground before the care packages in the form of waiting two weeks and then it was free for everyone (this is, in fact, still in place even now despite the leaks), but much like the care packages, it was not adhered to by the free side of the player base for the vast majority of versions, it was leaked consistently, sometimes within hours of a patron release, basically disincentivizing being a patron as there was no longer early access, people were getting it before the free release without being a patron anyway. The minimum tier that had any further benefit beyond that was the $30 tier that still existed at the time and that was getting into cost prohibitive territory for some who would have paid at lower tiers given the incentive that no longer existed.

Only twice in the entire existence of this thread can I even count an update as not being uploaded before it was free on official sites, which means that there have been over 30 violations of that middle ground by the free side of the player base including each bimonthly/trimonthly release that maintains the same number (part 1/part 2/part 3) as individual violations.

 

[Perniciousducks]

Okay, I've been staying out of this one because, while I still side with Sel overall, I did not agree with recent methods and think there was a better way to handle things that didn't involve what happened. However, I absolutely have to address this section of your comment.

Yes, there WAS a middle ground before the care packages in the form of waiting two weeks and then it was free for everyone (this is, in fact, still in place even now despite the leaks), but much like the care packages, it was not adhered to by the free side of the player base for the vast majority of versions, it was leaked consistently, sometimes within hours of a patron release, basically disincentivizing being a patron as there was no longer early access, people were getting it before the free release without being a patron anyway. The minimum tier that had any further benefit beyond that was the $30 tier that still existed at the time and that was getting into cost prohibitive territory for some who would have paid at lower tiers given the incentive that no longer existed.

Only twice in the entire existence of this thread can I even count an update as not being uploaded before it was free on official sites, which means that there have been over 30 violations of that middle ground by the free side of the player base including each bimonthly/trimonthly release that maintains the same number (part 1/part 2/part 3) as individual violations.

Ah yes, the middle ground with a pirate site being NO PIRACY WHATSOEVER. A completely reasonable expectation to have.

 

[worthlesspeon]

Okay, I've been staying out of this one because, while I still side with Sel overall, I did not agree with recent methods and think there was a better way to handle things that didn't involve what happened. However, I absolutely have to address this section of your comment.

Yes, there WAS a middle ground before the care packages in the form of waiting two weeks and then it was free for everyone (this is, in fact, still in place even now despite the leaks), but much like the care packages, it was not adhered to by the free side of the player base for the vast majority of versions, it was leaked consistently, sometimes within hours of a patron release, basically disincentivizing being a patron as there was no longer early access, people were getting it before the free release without being a patron anyway. The minimum tier that had any further benefit beyond that was the $30 tier that still existed at the time and that was getting into cost prohibitive territory for some who would have paid at lower tiers given the incentive that no longer existed.

Only twice in the entire existence of this thread can I even count an update as not being uploaded before it was free on official sites, which means that there have been over 30 violations of that middle ground by the free side of the player base including each bimonthly/trimonthly release that maintains the same number (part 1/part 2/part 3) as individual violations.

We all can cite our own middle grounds. We'd all have some valid points.

One can argue that another middle ground would be for Selebus to live with the fact that piracy exists and that it might at least be bringing him exposure that he otherwise would not have had.

At the end of the day this is a pirate site. Selebus knew that before he posted his game here. He still knows that today. That probably brought him some early exposure that he would not have had. He has even acknowledged that the high ratings on this site were corelated with subscriptions and in the past had asked his discord followers to leave 5 star reviews of the game here.

But fine, all of us have some cognitive dissonance eventually. But ultimately, even if he never uploaded it here, if his game somehow ended up getting as popular as it is today, it would have eventually made it to this site anyway. Piracy tends to be a symptom of popularity. The games I see here that don't get posted quickly are games that are much less popular. Wasting so much time and energy an an eventuality seems pretty pointless.

He is also free to try to implement DRM. I don't think he'll be successful if he tries it himself. If he pays someone else, I don't think he'll get back the money he's hoping too. Short of going with denuvo or something (which costs $25k per month), the game will be cracked very quickly - especially if he sticks with renpy.

Ultimately the reason he's pissed off is he started spending more money and his income growth has stagnated. He blames it on piracy. It's probably a lot more complex than that. I'd say all of the following are much bigger factors than piracy: It's a very niche game that has probably reached most of its potential audience, the game tends to be unforgiving to new players, global economy slowing causing people to cut back on unnecessary expenses, and a general reduction in quality long term. His public attitude also will not do much to attract new players.

 

[Bingoogus]

His public attitude also will not do much to attract new players.

I can say with great confidence, if i just discovered this game and saw Selly's recent behaviour i'd have kept on moving. I say this cause i've done this. Soon as i see this level of drama about a game i haven't played yet i just end up rolling my eyes and think 'oh, one of those dev's' and flick the game into the ignore pile, the game might be quality despite the drama but i'm not going to waste my time on a maybe with such a red flag displayed so prominently. You have to wonder how many people quietly dip in and quickly bow out when they see Selly have another public meltdown.

 

[barglenarglezous]

It's interesting how in two years it went from this to the latest war.png, mainly in the attitude and tone.

I mean it sounds much more honest and down to earth, while being roughly about the same. I remember being sympathetic back then. Can't say that now.

His stance was, and still is, that while piracy is inevitable, instant piracy is a pretty shitty thing to do.

A two day delay before leaking it would have prevented ALL of this. That was the reasonable middle of the road solution.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I can say with great confidence, if i just discovered this game and saw Selly's recent behaviour i'd have kept on moving. I say this cause i've done this. Soon as i see this level of drama about a game i haven't played yet i just end up rolling my eyes and think 'oh, one of those dev's' and flick the game into the ignore pile, the game might be quality despite the drama but i'm not going to waste my time on a maybe with such a red flag displayed so prominently. You have to wonder how many people quietly dip in and quickly bow out when they see Selly have another public meltdown.

See, maybe I've just gotten too cynical in my old age, but I honestly expect EVERY creator to be crazy in some way.

The better authors almost always have at least one thing going on inside their head. Poe was depressed and addicted, Dickenson was prone to panic, fully half of all authors are addicts of some sort, and that number is probably closer to 2/3, a lot of them are also on the spectrum to some degree, so meltdowns are going to happen.

So all this? It's on-brand.

I literally had a creative writing professor tell me the the best advice he could give me to become a better writer was to become an alcoholic. His final had a two-drink minimum. "You don't have to be an addict to be a good writer," he told me, "but it sure does help. The suffering gives you a lot to work with."

I'm more suspicious of creators are act well-adjusted, to be honest.

 

[Bingoogus]

See, maybe I've just gotten too cynical in my old age, but I honestly expect EVERY creator to be crazy in some way.

The better authors almost always have at least one thing going on inside their head. Poe was depressed and addicted, Dickenson was prone to panic, fully half of all authors are addicts of some sort, and that number is probably closer to 2/3, a lot of them are also on the spectrum to some degree, so meltdowns are going to happen.

So all this? It's on-brand.

I literally had a creative writing professor tell me the the best advice he could give me to become a better writer was to become an alcoholic. His final had a two-drink minimum. "You don't have to be an addict to be a good writer," he told me, "but it sure does help. The suffering gives you a lot to work with."

I'm more suspicious of creators are act well-adjusted, to be honest.

Oh no doubt, i am of a similar mind, but i find the ones that lash out all over the place are not worth the time investment, better to be safe and risk missing out than get stuck with... this...

I'm invested now so there's no going back and at least it's rather decent popcorn for my tastes, but i just got lucky with this one, been caught in an actually frustrating situation a couple of times in the past where i wished i could've just never gotten involved in the first place, like realising Zimon was too much of a douche for his kitchy game to be worth sticking around for as one example. Part of my mind still drifts back to that world and i find myself curious how the story has developed but it's just not worth it. Wish i could scrub it from my brain all together.

 

[ocworld]

This game was translated into other languages by pirates

 

[Black Raven]

See, maybe I've just gotten too cynical in my old age, but I honestly expect EVERY creator to be crazy in some way.

Don't worry mate, i made a very similar point a few pages ago and i'm canonically 14 now. I'm definitely a cynic but eh, age is just a number amirite ?


If i were Selebus Deleted member 1697433 i wouldn't bother with DRM and stuff. I wonder how hard it would be to just include some more realistic kids in the game since F95 don't care about anime kids. Like hot samples of games that were actually banned like Proud Father or The Guardian. As an ad/partnership or something.

 

[KnowNoHope]

a very small part of me thinks this, i know its wrong, but paranoia plagues me regurlarly which makes me think of hundreds of alternative explanations for things.

this thread was pretty much dead...
selebus wasn't getting as much publicity as he wanted
'all publicity is good publicity' low IQ mindset develops
starts shit
thread be poppin now

 

[Black Raven]

a very small part of me thinks this, i know its wrong, but paranoia plagues me regurlarly which makes me think of hundreds of alternative explanations for things.

this thread was pretty much dead...
selebus wasn't getting as much publicity as he wanted
'all publicity is good publicity' low IQ mindset develops
starts shit
thread be poppin now

So...Your theory is that Deleted member 1697433 leaked the CP himself with an alt account so that he could then pretend to be mad about it, creating drama for publicity ?

That's not paranoia, that's retardness.