Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.42.0] [Selebus]

[barglenarglezous]

But i guess that'd make for a boring game and it's why i am a reader, not a writer.

Nailed it.

Had a creative writing professor in college tell me "a good story is a series of interesting mistakes." I think of that every time somebody picks apart a character making a mistake in a movie that prevents the entire movie from happening.

If everybody makes the correct decisions, nothing of interest happens, there's no conflict (because they work it out the instant it arises), and people get tired of your story super quick. It's why I stopped playing My New Family -- every single conflict was talked out within 5 scenes and I got bored.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Honestly, one thing that really pisses me off about half the characters in this story is the same thing that pisses me of in half of all the stories i consume, people don't just fuckin talk their issues out properly, if at all, like fuck, if i was Akira i'd be sitting her down and saying something like "ok, ffs Ami, you NEED to stop worrying about losing me, i'm never ever going to drop you, you have me for life, that doesn't mean you have me all to yourself, i want to hang out with your classmates, i want to hang out with my adult friends, but you will always be dear to me, you'll never have to move out and make a life for yourself without me so stop with all this possessive stalker crap, that's the sort of shit that could land you in an insane asylum and i don't want to lose you to that so just chill, just chill and we can be together as we have been for as long as we live."

Now, i recognise that would be absurd to hear coming from his lips but that seems to encapsulate his thoughts and feeling pretty well and full informs Ami of her options and what to do to keep her happy bubble safe and what will happen if she goes to far this way or that way. I'm not saying it'd work, but at least there'd be none of this obfuscated masking shit, if she rejects it then it'd be good if she could be just as bluntly honest in return, let rip on Sensei and leave him fully informed on wtf she's going through.

Have em go back and forth at each other, get it ALL out and deal with it and then maybe, just maybe, shit could improve and work in a more healthy way.

But i guess that'd make for a boring game and it's why i am a reader, not a writer.

A group of flawed characters making less than optimal decisions is what makes stories interesting for easily bored person like myself; but I support your idea because if those decisions are quite unbearable while much better solutions are so easily within grasp, it comes down to writers putting efforts into making readers think in characters' shoes, while avoiding things becoming too drawn out because writers promote readers to think like idiot characters way too much and often and push them off their boundaries.

I get this pissed off feeling of yours especially when reading materials with teenagers or straight up dumbasses as protagonists, or revisiting materials I liked when I was one of the teenagers or straight up dumbasses. It gets harder to say "yea I feel you" or "yea I'd do the same" when you get older. Or in other people's cases, that boundary of theirs has always been understandably stringent from the start due to their backgrounds.

 

[ccxvidonaferens]

Nailed it.

Had a creative writing professor in college tell me "a good story is a series of interesting mistakes." I think of that every time somebody picks apart a character making a mistake in a movie that prevents the entire movie from happening.

If everybody makes the correct decisions, nothing of interest happens, there's no conflict (because they work it out the instant it arises), and people get tired of your story super quick. It's why I stopped playing My New Family -- every single conflict was talked out within 5 scenes and I got bored.

This discussion reminds of a piece of party banter from Dragon Age Inquisition between Cassandra and Varric that it took me a little while to find again that I think puts across the need for conflict within a story quite nicely.

• Cassandra: Varric, how could you let the Knight-Captain be framed for murder?
• Varric: Well, I did spent three entire chapters setting it up.
• Cassandra: But she didn't deserve it! You'd already put her through more than enough!
• Varric: Look, Seeker, if you love a character, you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death.
• Cassandra: That makes no sense!
• Varric: You care enough to argue. If she had a nice afternoon and took a nap, you'd stop reading.

 

[barglenarglezous]

This discussion reminds of a piece of party banter from Dragon Age Inquisition between Cassandra and Varric that it took me a little while to find again that I think puts across the need for conflict within a story quite nicely.

• Cassandra: Varric, how could you let the Knight-Captain be framed for murder?
• Varric: Well, I did spent three entire chapters setting it up.
• Cassandra: But she didn't deserve it! You'd already put her through more than enough!
• Varric: Look, Seeker, if you love a character, you give them pain, ruin their lives, make them suffer. Maybe even throw in a heroic death.
• Cassandra: That makes no sense!
• Varric: You care enough to argue. If she had a nice afternoon and took a nap, you'd stop reading.

Yup, I loved that banter.

As long as the mistakes they make are in-character for them, it's what keeps a good story going.

If they're making out of character bad decisions purely to stir the pot, that's when it becomes a problem.

 

[butterfly boy]

Honestly, one thing that really pisses me off about half the characters in this story is the same thing that pisses me of in half of all the stories i consume, people don't just fuckin talk their issues out properly, if at all, like fuck, if i was Akira i'd be sitting her down and saying something like "ok, ffs Ami, you NEED to stop worrying about losing me, i'm never ever going to drop you, you have me for life, that doesn't mean you have me all to yourself, i want to hang out with your classmates, i want to hang out with my adult friends, but you will always be dear to me, you'll never have to move out and make a life for yourself without me so stop with all this possessive stalker crap, that's the sort of shit that could land you in an insane asylum and i don't want to lose you to that so just chill, just chill and we can be together as we have been for as long as we live."

Now, i recognise that would be absurd to hear coming from his lips but that seems to encapsulate his thoughts and feeling pretty well and full informs Ami of her options and what to do to keep her happy bubble safe and what will happen if she goes to far this way or that way. I'm not saying it'd work, but at least there'd be none of this obfuscated masking shit, if she rejects it then it'd be good if she could be just as bluntly honest in return, let rip on Sensei and leave him fully informed on wtf she's going through.

Have em go back and forth at each other, get it ALL out and deal with it and then maybe, just maybe, shit could improve and work in a more healthy way.

But i guess that'd make for a boring game and it's why i am a reader, not a writer.

I want to add that this kind of thing works in LiL because every character is a teenager, they won't make correct decisions most of the time. And Sensei's motive is "do the bare minimum to have sex with teenage girls". He didn't talk with Ami before because she hasn't damaged any of his relationships yet and there was a good chance saying some of that stuff you said could backfire, and only started taking action when Ami was getting close to damaging his relationship with Chika. That's his general strategy, blindly hitting on girls without thinking of the consequences and hope that they don't find out. He won't even put in the effort to prevent them from finding out. If Sensei was more competent he would be fucking the entire class by now.

 

[blackredfish]

A group of flawed characters making less than optimal decisions is what makes stories interesting for easily bored person like myself; but I support your idea because if those decisions are quite unbearable while much better solutions are so easily within grasp, it comes down to writers putting efforts into making readers think in characters' shoes, while avoiding things becoming too drawn out because writers promote readers to think like idiot characters way too much and often and push them off their boundaries.

It all comes down to writing indeed. Game of Thrones is the perfect example of how different levels of writers can affect the same characters. When they had GRR Martin material as support, show was awesome. Characters were flawed, making mistakes all over the place and getting punished for them. Yet it was easy to get in their shoes and understand their decisions.

When the show surpassed the books all went to hell. Characters were making even more stupid out of nowhere mistakes but now without always getting punished. You could not relate to them anymore. Jon Snow was a walking dumbass with plot armor. I was pissed off with the ending and some people were telling me "do you know they asked Martin how it ends and the same will happen on the books?" So what, I have no doubt Daenerys is going to burn down the city. How it happened is the problem. It's always about the journey, not the destination. Good stories need conflicts and conflicts need to come from believable places.

Sorry for the off topic rant, still not over it. Now, I think Selebus has done a terrific job so far and that's why I love the characters. He's not perfect though and I don't expect him to be. It's all good.

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

Maya and Ami are roughly the same age, Ami was old enough to understand what happened when her parents died in the accident, and at the time Sensei was still dating Niki and was tutoring her and Noriko + Maya.
So odds are they did know one another in some way.
Though I could be wrong since apparently there's some holes in Maya's backstory according to Ami but I don't remember which ones those were and it could also be Ami gaslighting.

Akira started tutoring after recovering from the depression of the accident, not while dating Niki.

 

[Bingoogus]

Akira started tutoring after recovering from the depression of the accident, not while dating Niki.

I went to reply with the same earlier but i actually got stuck wondering if that's true... i can't remember any specifics as to when he started tutoring, wasn't he 23 when the accident happened? Unless he went to college/university for 5 years there'd be room to pick up tutoring as a side gig, heck, even whilst studying most students get part time jobs... i vaguely recall mention of him starting to tutor in the old district after the accident, but it's that little niggly bit about 'did he ever tutor before that?' that i can't pin down.

Still, 99.9% sure he didn't meet and start tutoring Maya until after the accident so it's kind of a moot point.

 

[k1n5l4y3r]

I went to reply with the same earlier but i actually got stuck wondering if that's true... i can't remember any specifics as to when he started tutoring, wasn't he 23 when the accident happened? Unless he went to college/university for 5 years there'd be room to pick up tutoring as a side gig, heck, even whilst studying most students get part time jobs... i vaguely recall mention of him starting to tutor in the old district after the accident, but it's that little niggly bit about 'did he ever tutor before that?' that i can't pin down.

Still, 99.9% sure he didn't meet and start tutoring Maya until after the accident so it's kind of a moot point.

He tutored Niki while he was dating her, but only started tutoring as a "real job" after the accident. And seens he was pretty good cause he rented a place and even probably paid for college/university. Course he could have schoolarship too since smrt.

 

[DeSkel15]

Has always been wondering why Sekai’s attitude towards Maya is like this. Though it mostly happens in happy scenes, her distaste seems warranted enough to mean something. But what’s the cause?

I don’t think Sekai ever met Maya back when she was alive, nor could she start a serious qualm with a wizard; so Sekai most likely came up with an otherworldly reason to hate Maya only after she died, which pretty much is a literal extension to Maya’s idea of “this world hates me”.

I suppose the obvious reason would be Maya being a dent to this world built for Akira, a dent that perceives the cycle and perhaps at some point tries to break him out of it. But even this feels like talking out of my ass level with the amount of conjectures.
(Like trying to figure out why this most enigmatic girl hates the other most enigmatic girl is literally breaking my brain)

My couple theories are:

1. Sekai feels like Maya is the only other person who has taken Sensei's heart like she could. Maya also seems to have tried erasing her presence from Sensei, much like she did with the Nakayama's (as much as she could with her daughter being around). That picture that showed up in the Scary Room could have been one of Sekai that Maya tried to get Sensei to get rid of. Maya doesn't seem to even like Sensei visiting her grave, and may have been the one to convince him to forget Sekai in the first place.
2. Maya could have used to think of herself as Ami's guardian. Possibly even a secret substitute mother. This could be why she loves Ami so much, and why they are so close. Her dating Sensei may have made her think of herself as Ami's aunt as well. Sekai could simply hate the idea of Maya not only trying to replace her as the one Sensei loves, but also as the one Ami loves.
3. Maya might be the one responsible for the way things are, which has trapped and tormented Ami and Sensei, perhaps the only two people Sekai has ever loved. Maya may have even pushed Sensei to suicide at some point, which Sekai might blame her for.
4. Etc.

Overall: It's definitely the most interesting rivalry in the game.

Sekai definitely seems to hate Maya, and considering how Maya seems to feel about Sensei's past, I would be surprised if she didn't hate Sekai for what she's done to Sensei.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I went to reply with the same earlier but i actually got stuck wondering if that's true... i can't remember any specifics as to when he started tutoring, wasn't he 23 when the accident happened? Unless he went to college/university for 5 years there'd be room to pick up tutoring as a side gig, heck, even whilst studying most students get part time jobs... i vaguely recall mention of him starting to tutor in the old district after the accident, but it's that little niggly bit about 'did he ever tutor before that?' that i can't pin down.

Still, 99.9% sure he didn't meet and start tutoring Maya until after the accident so it's kind of a moot point.

He was tutoring both Niki and Noriko prior to the accident.

Per Noriko's story, Maya didn't show up until AFTER Noriko had started being tutored by him the second time (after the accident).

 

[DeSkel15]

Honestly, one thing that really pisses me off about half the characters in this story is the same thing that pisses me of in half of all the stories i consume, people don't just fuckin talk their issues out properly, if at all, like fuck, if i was Akira i'd be sitting her down and saying something like "ok, ffs Ami, you NEED to stop worrying about losing me, i'm never ever going to drop you, you have me for life, that doesn't mean you have me all to yourself, i want to hang out with your classmates, i want to hang out with my adult friends, but you will always be dear to me, you'll never have to move out and make a life for yourself without me so stop with all this possessive stalker crap, that's the sort of shit that could land you in an insane asylum and i don't want to lose you to that so just chill, just chill and we can be together as we have been for as long as we live."

Now, i recognise that would be absurd to hear coming from his lips but that seems to encapsulate his thoughts and feeling pretty well and full informs Ami of her options and what to do to keep her happy bubble safe and what will happen if she goes to far this way or that way. I'm not saying it'd work, but at least there'd be none of this obfuscated masking shit, if she rejects it then it'd be good if she could be just as bluntly honest in return, let rip on Sensei and leave him fully informed on wtf she's going through.

Have em go back and forth at each other, get it ALL out and deal with it and then maybe, just maybe, shit could improve and work in a more healthy way.

But i guess that'd make for a boring game and it's why i am a reader, not a writer.

Personally, I don't think that conversation would have changed much. Ami has kind of decided that she doesn't just need Sensei to always need her, but that they will one day have kids, etc.

It's not as bad on the "Bad Uncle" route, but "Good Uncle" Ami, is well, by her own words:

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Now, I could see the conversation having some effect on BU Ami, since she's not absolutely against sharing Sensei:

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There can be a future where everything turns out decently okay. But as long as Sensei isn't fucking her, I don't think GU Ami can be satisfied. She seems to need him to need her in every way.

Ami and Sensei (and most characters in this game, tbh), are beyond talking to in most circumstances. They are either too broken or depraved for words to reach them most of the time. I mean Makoto and Futaba tried to talk to Sensei about him cheating on them, (just to understand why), but he then immediately tried to make them blame themselves for it instead of him. He's a manipulator, and like Ami, he'll rewrite reality to suit whatever fits him within his mind, and he's smart enough to make others think the same. It helps that he's actually intelligent, and that he's usually manipulating children of course.

Overall: I don't think this game suffers from the infuriatingly, annoyingly, and suddenly dense characters that others tend to have. Most of the characters are just designed to be people that don't or can't talk things out under most circumstances. They can grow to the point that they do and can though. Even Sensei himself has begun opening up:

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There's also how Sana has told Sensei about her dead brother, Haruka has given into her honest depravity, and Yumi's becoming an actually decent human being as of late, and not only talking to her mom, but some of her classmates, etc.

 

[Oikoslegends]

Does anyone know what Maya meant by this in the "All for you" event?

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[DeSkel15]

Does anyone know what Maya means by this in the "All for you" event?

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For where: Maya likely means that Ami can't know that they are all trapped in an eternal prison themed as an infinite school year within a walled city.

As for When: Time itself doesn't make much sense in Kumon-mi. Maya is likely meaning that Ami can't know how weird it is that they went to the Beach on Christmas, or had multiple Halloweens in supposedly one school year.

Most characters just tend to ignore the illogical time frame going on even when it's acknowledged.

 

[Oikoslegends]

For where: Maya likely means that Ami can't know that they are all trapped in an eternal prison themed as an infinite school year within a walled city.

As for When: Time itself doesn't make much sense in Kumon-mi. Maya is likely meaning that Ami can't know how weird it is that they went to the Beach on Christmas, or had multiple Halloweens in supposedly one school year.

Most characters just tend to ignore the illogical time frame going on even when it's acknowledged.

I see. Thank you!

 

[DeSkel15]

It's a little ironic, that Ami of all people seems to know herself rather well.

"Bad Uncle" Ami:

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Vs "Good Uncle" Ami:

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[barglenarglezous]

It's a little ironic, that Ami of all people seems to know herself rather well.

I wonder how many times Maya saw Psycho Ami appear during Bad Uncle runs. Or were they all happening when that version of Akira kept his hands off Ami.

And that what Maya perceives as Ami flipping out over the resets is really just a very sexually frustrated Ami going full incel on the other girls, and that if Ami's getting laid, she handles the news much more chill.

 

[DeSkel15]

I wonder how many times Maya saw Psycho Ami appear during Bad Uncle runs. Or were they all happening when that version of Akira kept his hands off Ami.

And that what Maya perceives as Ami flipping out over the resets is really just a very sexually frustrated Ami going full incel on the other girls, and that if Ami's getting laid, she handles the news much more chill.

That's a really good question actually, and I highly doubt it's something that's crossed Maya's mind seeing as how she's disgusted by their relationship, and wants Sensei all to herself.

Considering how Psycho Ami is trying to preserve the illusion of a perfect life, according to Maya, it can be assumed that Psycho Ami was always unhappy with how things were going, which could mean she wasn't getting any in those timelines. Especially seeing as how Sensei was a victim of hers as well.

Psycho Ami's kryptonite: Incest.

 

[c8c3l]

Amy made me cry she clearly remembered Sensei and knew she was Ami I don't know how much memories she have.

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I think Amy is one possibility of Ami's ending in a different timeline or in the future.

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And I don't think she's happy in the mall at all no hands no feet no friends no sensei and see how much she has changed i want to help her but I didn't think there was an option to help her that was so sad.

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All we can do now is protect this Ami at all cost she deserved happy ending.

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[TheLastCrusade]

Sensei and the Love Squad. Stay tuned for more.

Revised love squad and some more.
Next cards: Yuki, Maki, Otoha

Some characters' hairstyles may be hidden behind accessories.