VN Ren'Py Let the Nightshine In [v0.17 Ch. 2] [Sieglinnde]

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Netorase also goes against cheating so that "clarification" made no sense, cheating and netorare are separate from swinging, sharing, netorase, etc.

Completely agree with you.

Thus this game actually very much has sharing, but due to some of its themes like voyeurism, cuckoldry, femdom, etc it simply overlaps with cheating and netorare......

No, this makes no sense, and contradicts the first part of your post. If they're separate, then there's no overlap. Cheating is the opposite of sharing, the two can't exist in the same sample space. Even the word itself: "sharing" suggests agency, since you can't "share" something you have no agency over in the first place. And that's exactly the foundation of this game. The main girl wants the guy who isnt her boyfriend from the start, and does stuff with him behind mc's back from the start. There's nothing 'sharey' or 'swinger' about this, it's just an ntr story in slightly different flavors depending on path.

Furthermore, I don't see why many people here (including the dev) are so hung up on trying to market it otherwise. Being an ntr game isn't a bad thing, I play a lot of ntr games, and wouldn't shame anyone for having that preference.

But if a player finds scenarios appealing where the LI is fucking around behind bf's back, they're not a sharing fan, they're an ntr fan. It's simple.

 

[Adamska]

cheating and netorare also being separate concepts

What would an example of netorare without cheating look like? I've always viewed them as synonymous, the focus of a netorare story is on the infidelity.

 

[Sieglinnde]

Completely agree with you.


No, this makes no sense, and contradicts the first part of your post. If they're separate, then there's no overlap. Cheating is the opposite of sharing, the two can't exist in the same sample space. Even the word itself: "sharing" suggests agency, since you can't "share" something you have no agency over in the first place. And that's exactly the foundation of this game. The main girl wants the guy who isnt her boyfriend from the start, and does stuff with him behind mc's back from the start. There's nothing 'sharey' or 'swinger' about this, it's just an ntr story in slightly different flavors depending on path.

Furthermore, I don't see why many people here (including the dev) are so hung up on trying to market it otherwise. Being an ntr game isn't a bad thing, I play a lot of ntr games, and wouldn't shame anyone for having that preference.

But if a player finds scenarios appealing where the LI is fucking around behind bf's back, they're not a sharing fan, they're an ntr fan. It's simple.

Why do you say I try to market it otherwise? I always explained my intentions with the routes... From the beginning I said that the NTR/Sharing route (previously called NTR/Swinging) would be a mix between those two... Showing how at the beginning the main character likes his girlfriend to do those things, but she also begins to like it and does certain things behind the MC's back... And the MC suspects that Ariana doesn't tell him "everything" but he believes her and all that waiting gets him excited too... I ALWAYS said that I personally didn't really like those stories where the GF was always telling the MC everything and the MC was super happy about it... Yes, the LTNI MC likes it, but "something" inside of him still hurts... And that's because of the morbidity of seeing his girlfriend like that... He accepts it but it hurts a little, And he likes that "pain"... But it was certain point in the story where I thought it was appropriate to separate one thing from the other... That's why I created the "Sharing" route, where it would be 100% that and "netorase"... But starting little by little as Ariana (after apologizing for doing things behind the MC's back) now tries to please as much as possible the MC's fetish and tells him everything... Although she leaves a bit of "mystery" for the MC to figure out what's going on because she knows he likes it, but she's still completely honest with him... When I just released the "Sharing" route I saw a lot of people complaining that there were things Ariana didn't tell him... That's why in the next update (this one) I showed the reason for that and I even wanted to emphasize much more in the conversations of the two of them, so that those who play it understand well all that they feel

 

[Mamaragan]

What would an example of netorare without cheating look like? I've always viewed them as synonymous, the focus of a netorare story is on the infidelity.

Yeah, those are quite synonymous, but they are different I would say.
Netorare is more focused on a male rival trying to steal your girl and your girl falling for it. It's very specific. Cheating can be just fooling around behind your boy/girlfriend's back.

There can be cheating without ntr, but no ntr without cheating

 

[Joshy92]

I have always got the impression that Arianna doesn't fully understand the mc's fetish
And is only just now starting to understand it
Plus the mc did say he likes not knowing everything

I think everyone is being too harsh on the dev
Different genres can overlap
A story doesn't always have to stick to one kink imo

 

[Kotobiki]

What would an example of netorare without cheating look like? I've always viewed them as synonymous, the focus of a netorare story is on the infidelity.

Netorare is a genre dependent on playing with emotions, on a sense of defilement, aspects like these. It does not need to have a bad end necessarilly, nor even depends on cheating necessarilly, it almost always depends on showing both the one being whos love interest and the one whos interested to signal this juxtaposition. That is why comedy NTR like Kaya-Nee from Kon-Kit exists where the emotion meant to illicit is more like "lol this guys an idiot" or sibling and crush NTRs where there is no romantic relation formally established but there is still a highlight on the emotions of the character.
Cheating simply means exactly what it says, cheating, someone in a established relationship breaking the established parameters of a relationship in some romantic manner. An example of cheating without NTR is 469161 at NHentai and several of that other authors works (Minamida) as in these works the fact the person is cheating has no weight nor potential emotional conflict or anything of the sort. In Minamida's works it is just the kink of seeing a woman cheating, without this actually having any weight on the narrative or characters present. Heart-Pounding Helicopter Mom from same author is debatably an even better example since in that story they don't even ever mention the person being cheated on nor directly state the cheater is married, it is just inferred through hints like a wedding ring.

Edit: Fuck I had to correct so much typos n such, im just stopping here lol.

 

[Kotobiki]

Completely agree with you.


No, this makes no sense, and contradicts the first part of your post. If they're separate, then there's no overlap. Cheating is the opposite of sharing, the two can't exist in the same sample space. Even the word itself: "sharing" suggests agency, since you can't "share" something you have no agency over in the first place. And that's exactly the foundation of this game. The main girl wants the guy who isnt her boyfriend from the start, and does stuff with him behind mc's back from the start. There's nothing 'sharey' or 'swinger' about this, it's just an ntr story in slightly different flavors depending on path.

Furthermore, I don't see why many people here (including the dev) are so hung up on trying to market it otherwise. Being an ntr game isn't a bad thing, I play a lot of ntr games, and wouldn't shame anyone for having that preference.

But if a player finds scenarios appealing where the LI is fucking around behind bf's back, they're not a sharing fan, they're an ntr fan. It's simple.

It is ironic that you counter a allegedly senseless argument by making a senseless one. The fact they're different genres is what creates the potential for them to overlap, if they weren't different then they wouldn't overlap as they're already same thing, a red cloth can be overlapped over a white cloth and they'd still be different cloths coming together to make a whole product. If you need a word that makes it clearer to understand what I meant, then intersect might be better as intersect signifies things that are coming from different points but ended up crossing. I did not say this overlap/intersect is inherent, I said it can happen. You can argue against logic and definitions until we turn green, but fact Is that someone can be in a Sharing relationship and still be cheated on. Most Netorare and Netorase games which are incredibly similar genres to sharing and cheating actually have both NTR and NTRS in their genres simultaneously, just go play pretty much any of the several "Cuckolding Report" games which are literal some of the biggest staples of these genres in the world lol.
Not gonna address the "marketed otherwise" since dev already did.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

but fact Is that someone can be in a Sharing relationship and still be cheated on. Most Netorare and Netorase games which are incredibly similar genres to sharing and cheating actually have both NTR and NTRS in their genres simultaneously, just go play pretty much any of the several "Cuckolding Report" games which are literal some of the biggest staples of these genres in the world lol.

Absolutely someone can be in a relationship where they like sharing and still be cheated on. That doesn't mean that those sexual escapades constitute sharing, does it? But in the context of this game, that's what's being argued.

NTR isn't similar to sharing/swinging at ALL, IMO they're diametric opposites, the only reason they're grouped together on this site is because the loud vocal minority screams when they see any kind of npc-npc non MC sex. But yeah, diametric opposites. In ntr stories, the LI isnt attracted to or respects the MC. In swinging/sharing, they're usually in love and openly communicate with each other. In NTR stories, the MC usually has a passive doormat personality. In sharing/swinging, he's usually an equal partner or dominant in the relationship.

I've no interest in playing censored cartoon games like "Cuckolding Report".

Showing how at the beginning the main character likes his girlfriend to do those things, but she also begins to like it and does certain things behind the MC's back...

That would be better, except in the game, it doesnt happen in that order, it's the reverse.

Ari is doing those things ANYWAY behind his back, then we're introduced to the boyfriend liking it. This may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's not, because it completely speaks to her motivations.

 

[Adamska]

You can pour a glass of OJ and happily drink a glass of OJ, and you can pour a glass of milk and happily drink a glass of milk. But you don't want to pour half a glass of OJ, top it off with milk, then serve it to someone as "a glass of milk." I think this is my main gripe with this story's current structure, introducing the netorare (infidelity) elements and making them the focus of the story before any more lighthearted/fun sharing content that might be coming down the road. If this is a game that will cater to the darker side of sharing that's fine, but the early game and description gave me a different initial impression. I think this is why some people looking to scratch different itches leave feeling duped after investing time into the early story (which I do feel is very well done to set up a route split, if it happened at an earlier point in the story).

 

[Sieglinnde]

That would be better, except in the game, it doesnt happen in that order, it's the reverse.

Ari is doing those things ANYWAY behind his back, then we're introduced to the boyfriend liking it. This may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's not, because it completely speaks to her motivations.

From the beginning if you choose you liked the dream you had is when the whole NTR thing starts and even the main character talks to Mallory (and his da-... Joseph) about everything and has dreams of Ariana doing "certain things"... Ariana never does anything behind MC's back before MC tells her about his fetish.... The only thing Ariana does is "play" with those things... Because the MC (when they are having sex) talks to her about certain things comparing herself to previous relationships that Ariana had... Then Ariana slowly realizes things, and acts with the information she has... For example in the event where they "make out" inside a clothing store... Ariana plays with MC with the fact that the other man is watching her and taking him inside the dressing room and giving him oral sex... This is how she does "certain things" to see how MC reacts... Although yes, it is true that there are certain dialogues (like when they first meet Miles) where it gives an idea that "something is going on" but they are really more to give that "morbid" feeling...

 

[Kotobiki]

Absolutely someone can be in a relationship where they like sharing and still be cheated on. That doesn't mean that those sexual escapades constitute sharing, does it? But in the context of this game, that's what's being argued.

NTR isn't similar to sharing/swinging at ALL, IMO they're diametric opposites, the only reason they're grouped together on this site is because the loud vocal minority screams when they see any kind of npc-npc non MC sex. But yeah, diametric opposites. In ntr stories, the LI isnt attracted to or respects the MC. In swinging/sharing, they're usually in love and openly communicate with each other. In NTR stories, the MC usually has a passive doormat personality. In sharing/swinging, he's usually an equal partner or dominant in the relationship.

I've no interest in playing censored cartoon games like "Cuckolding Report".


That would be better, except in the game, it doesnt happen in that order, it's the reverse.

Ari is doing those things ANYWAY behind his back, then we're introduced to the boyfriend liking it. This may sound like a subtle distinction, but it's not, because it completely speaks to her motivations.

I never said NTR is similar to sharing, I said "Most Netorare and Netorase games which are incredibly similar genres to sharing and cheating actually have both NTR and NTRS in their genres simultaneously", but I can understand where my wording might have been confusing so let me clarify. What I meant was that Netorare is similar to cheating (literally just got asked to clear up the difference a little bit earlier on this same thread lol) and Netorase is similar to sharing and/or swinging. And as I pointed out, these 2 genres which can be considered comparable to cheating and sharing often do meet, It is actually a staple of the genre at an industry level with games like those of Atelier Sakura.

Here is a simple way which cheating and sharing can simultaneously happen: you tell your girlfriend she can see other guys, thus you are giving her permission - This is sharing. If she does more than what would be implicit that her BF would be willing to permite her do, or if she thinks shes doing more than shes allowed then its also cheating. Even if one has permission to have sex with others, one can still cheat depending how one goes about it. But even if one is cheating does not change the fact that one was shared. Thus both cheating and sharing is happening simultaneously. Like in Mayumi's Cuckolding Report where the husband knows when she has sex and waits for her reports, but she does more than she tells him thus she is engaging in emotional cheating even if being shared willingly. It depends on the arrangement mostly, but both things can happen simultaneously, which is what happened in LTNSI at parts.
Your argument shouldnt be that it isnt sharing, since they factually have accepted to be in a sharing relation and there never was any clear boundary where she has to ask permission each time she acts. Your argument should be the NTR element gets more focus since Ariana abuses the trust granted to her, misleading about things she does thus virtually cheating by lying about the extent of her activities despite MC having given her permission and encouragement for sexual interaction with others.

 

[Sieglinnde]

You can pour a glass of OJ and happily drink a glass of OJ, and you can pour a glass of milk and happily drink a glass of milk. But you don't want to pour half a glass of OJ, top it off with milk, then serve it to someone as "a glass of milk." I think this is my main gripe with this story's current structure, introducing the netorare (infidelity) elements and making them the focus of the story before any more lighthearted/fun sharing content that might be coming down the road. If this is a game that will cater to the darker side of sharing that's fine, but the early game and description gave me a different initial impression. I think this is why some people looking to scratch different itches leave feeling duped after investing time into the early story (which I do feel is very well done to set up a route split, if it happened at an earlier point in the story).

I understand and respect everyone's vision of the game... I saw many comments saying that the game itself is very good in (almost) all its routes, and others who agree with what you mention... I understand that it is something that depends on what each one feels... Although I really don't like to be "compared" with other titles... It's a bit hateful to say the typical "As I said" but I previously mentioned that from the beginning I wanted to mix NTR with "sharing"... I already explained it so I won't get into it anymore... I didn't want to do a "strictly Sharing" story or anything like that... The way I told the story is the way I like things in an NTR environment... You know what I'm saying? I mean, for the FMC to not be "totally honest" with what she does... And that the mystery is what MC really likes... And that the MC doesn't totally "agree" with what the FMC does but that's what gets him excited too... It was like that until I got to what I considered to be the "tipping point" (Ariana "going far" with Joseph) where I had to separate the routes

 

[Kotobiki]

You can pour a glass of OJ and happily drink a glass of OJ, and you can pour a glass of milk and happily drink a glass of milk. But you don't want to pour half a glass of OJ, top it off with milk, then serve it to someone as "a glass of milk." I think this is my main gripe with this story's current structure, introducing the netorare (infidelity) elements and making them the focus of the story before any more lighthearted/fun sharing content that might be coming down the road. If this is a game that will cater to the darker side of sharing that's fine, but the early game and description gave me a different initial impression. I think this is why some people looking to scratch different itches leave feeling duped after investing time into the early story (which I do feel is very well done to set up a route split, if it happened at an earlier point in the story).

Unironically I like mixing drinks in real life, from my refill cups when out having a burger to making mixes with my alcoholic drinks. So kinda ironic for this example to be used in this specific scenario

 

[Griev]

What would an example of netorare without cheating look like? I've always viewed them as synonymous, the focus of a netorare story is on the infidelity.

Cheating isn't necessary for NTR to occur. I've been reading Korean Manhwa with NTR for years before we had all these Vn games to play. NTR was used in invoke an emotional response from the reader, mainly jealousy or betrayal. It's definition has been twisted to the point that now in VNs any male having sex with a character people scream NTR. Cheating CAN actually make you feel those things, but people can experience those emotions without a relationship being involved. Even today, people cry "NTR" if the MC has a crush on his own mom, but his father has sex with her. It's playing on that sense of jealously, and insecurity. You can replace mom, with a school crush that the MC loves from afar but never had the guts to approach. If she has a bf and he has sex with her, again people will cry NTR. There's no relationship between the MC and the girl.

Those damn Koreans are masters of the genre. You'll get a story where MC has a crush on a teacher. She may smile at him, and the smiles and crush will grow for dozens of chapters only for you to find that teacher having sex with the school bully that kicks the MC ass. You have to hook the reader on the hope, or promise of something happening between the LI and mC before you can trigger the emotions necessary for true NTR to occur. In the west, again everything is NTR. If you gf walks in on a naked male by accident, people will cry NTR. It's so weird to see.

 

[Sieglinnde]

Cheating isn't necessary for NTR to occur. I've been reading Korean Manhwa with NTR for years before we had all these Vn games to play. NTR was used in invoke an emotional response from the reader, mainly jealousy or betrayal. It's definition has been twisted to the point that now in VNs any male having sex with a character people scream NTR. Cheating CAN actually make you feel those things, but people can experience those emotions without a relationship being involved. Even today, people cry "NTR" if the MC has a crush on his own mom, but his father has sex with her. It's playing on that sense of jealously, and insecurity. You can replace mom, with a school crush that the MC loves from afar but never had the guts to approach. If she has a bf and he has sex with her, again people will cry NTR. There's no relationship between the MC and the girl.

Those damn Koreans are masters of the genre. You'll get a story where MC has a crush on a teacher. She may smile at him, and the smiles and crush will grow for dozens of chapters only for you to find that teacher having sex with the school bully that kicks the MC ass. You have to hook the reader on the hope, or promise of something happening between the LI and mC before you can trigger the emotions necessary for true NTR to occur. In the west, again everything is NTR. If you gf walks in on a naked male by accident, people will cry NTR. It's so weird to see.

I've seen a lot of manwhas too... It seems like the NTR is the most famous genre there... Hm, now I want to read one...

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

but they are really more to give that "morbid" feeling...

dude don't you get it? This says it all. You're an NTR fan. And as I said before, THAT'S OKAY! I'm not here to attack you for that or say reee reeee avoidable? But at your core, you're an NTR fan. Whereas I'm a swinging/sharing fan. What I'm arguing about is someone who's very clearly an NTR fan saying certain routes are more swinging/sharing.

Try and imagine the opposite. An NTR game made by a swinging/sharing lover - and on every path, even the "hard ntr" paths, the LI asked for permission to mess around with others. You'd kinda be like ......uhhh that defeats the purpose of an ntr story. Yeah, it does. This is the analogy to having a swinging/sharing story where there's loads of deception and cheating.

Swinging route players DONT WANT a "morbid" feeling. They don't get titillated by the thought of LIs doing things behind their back. That's PURE ntr logic. (And again, not a bad thing! but from a totally different writing style)

 

[Sieglinnde]

dude don't you get it? This says it all. You're an NTR fan. And as I said before, THAT'S OKAY! I'm not here to attack you for that or say reee reeee avoidable? But at your core, you're an NTR fan. Whereas I'm a swinging/sharing fan. What I'm arguing about is someone who's very clearly an NTR fan saying certain routes are more swinging/sharing.

Try and imagine the opposite. An NTR game made by a swinging/sharing lover - and on every path, even the "hard ntr" paths, the LI asked for permission to mess around with others. You'd kinda be like ......uhhh that defeats the purpose of an ntr story. Yeah, it does. This is the analogy to having a swinging/sharing story where there's loads of deception and cheating.

Swinging route players DONT WANT a "morbid" feeling. They don't get titillated by the thought of LIs doing things behind their back. That's PURE ntr logic. (And again, not a bad thing! but from a totally different writing style)

I am, man... I really like NTR... It's not like I hide it or something... And I really understand your point, I really do... You are right about people who likes swinging not liking that "morbid" feeling, and thats why I created the "Sharing" route when I considered it was necessary... And I know you are not "attacking", im just replying because.... Idk, is it that hard to understand? The story I told (during the NTR/Sharing route) was the story I always wanted to see in an NTR environment... I mean, a mix of NTR with Sharing... Where you start with the fetish of wanting to share, but showing that things are not "that easy"... I never intended to tell a story to appeal strictly only to "Swinging" or "netorase" or just "Netorare" audience... It's just the story I wanted to tell, and many people (fortunately) liked it and I kept expanding it...

 

[Adamska]

I respect how interactive you are as a developer, and I think critics of the story will understand your goals once they read through your posts. It's clear you're making something you love and that's awesome, the content should be whatever you want it to be! The main thing I'm trying to highlight is that the split you added may be occurring too late to make the crowd attracted by those "swinging" and "sharing" tags happy with Ariana's behavior in the story. It's really set up as a pure NTR tale after the vanilla split. By the time Ariana's at that poker game, most readers looking for a traditional swing/share story will have already tuned out. If the split happened before that massage parlor scene and could have led to a lighter version of the couple sleeping around/swapping stories/etc. it likely would have been a better fit as a more traditional swing/share story (though I now see that is not the end goal).

 

[Griev]

I've seen a lot of manwhas too... It seems like the NTR is the most famous genre there... Hm, now I want to read one...

The reason I enjoy this particular game more than most others on this site is because you seem to understand that NTR doesn't trigger the emotions necessary to do the genre justice without first investing the time into developing the relationship between the MC and his LI. Each update is different. Ari can seem like the best, most understanding GF ever, or she can be a complete slut in another update, but she never ever disrespects MC in a malicious way. So we still rooting for the couple.

If you're looking for a manhwa with a really good story, some revenge and AMAZING art check out "Silent War". MC goes from loser, to badass as he looks to take everything from the bully, that tried to take everything from him. If you want to read one with some really good line blurring NTRS/NTR "Everything is Agreed Upon". The writer put 2 couples in a situation where sharing/swinging and straight up NTR all happens, and it all just works! (trying not to spoil, and I cant explain more without doing just that).

 

[Kotobiki]

Damn, we turning this into a ManHwa talk now, this chat would never end if I jumped on that train lol.