4.60 star(s) 40 Votes

Brocho

Member
Aug 15, 2017
177
124
I think the James path in this game and the whole of CtGwC are deliberately open-ended to give players those choices. It's different from the usual Tlaero games which usually have a fairly set story and obvious motivations for the main character. Alas, a lot of people want games which give them more choices rather than following a story, and I'm sure Tlaero was trying her best to please those people, but at the risk of failing to please the fans of previous games. I think it was a bold thing to try, and if it didn't quite work as intended, then at least it's a learning experience when writing future games.

Although I'm sure there is no 'canon' ending for either game, I am curious whether Tlaero has an ending she prefers, which maybe she would have chosen if they weren't so open-ended. While we're at it, the same goes for CfK. The path you choose for that game determines what sort of relationship Keisha and Sam have in the future, although I guess it's pretty moot as they're clearly not still together by the time we get to this game.
 
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Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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When you're playing the James path, you get to choose what James wants at the start of the game. Does he feel that he made a mistake and regret it, or does he feel justified for what he did? If the former, then he wants to save his long marriage and get Keeley back. If the latter, then he's far enough gone that he can justify anything, even giving an intimate video of Keeley to a revenge site.

I originally planned to just have the Claryce lover path and the James cheater path. The Claryce one was the more traditional "Tlaero" story of meeting a girl and falling in love with her, and the James one was what I perceived as what certain detractors of my previous games wanted. The thing is, I'm me, and I was uncomfortable with the James path, even though it's what I set out to do. So early on, I added the James redemption path and the Claryce friend path. That let me say, "Okay, you can be a right bastard if you want to, but you don't have to."

I literally don't have a "canon" ending for either this game or Coming to Grips with Christine, and no future game will make one of these paths be what "really happened."

I do have paths that I personally enjoy more than the others, though. As much as I love how strong and self assured as Christine is, I like her self-confident but sweet sister better. If CtGwC was a tv show I was watching, I'd be rooting for Laura. Similarly, I adore Claryce. It's no mistake that every possible route through her story ends really well for her. I'm content with all of those endings, though the fact that Avaron tried out the "Strip Detectives" game IRL and enjoyed it gives me an extra warm feeling for that ending.

As for Coffee for Keisha, there's no huge message there, just that not every relationship results in a happily ever after. People get together and later break up all the time. That was the case with Kiesha. I never wrote the conditions of her breakup, but I don't think it was particularly acrimonious. I suspect it was something simple like her having a great opportunity to work somewhere else and taking it.

Tlaero
 

BloodyMares

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2017
1,458
7,018
To put it bluntly, there is no in depth reasoning on his route because if they hadn't experimented at trying to please everyone, he wouldn't have had a route at all.
I know that Tlaero felt like writing a Claryce story and it shows, but since the decision was made to include James' side as well that would have lots of sexy scenes, having some deeper narrative to back it up would've made for a much better game overall. And I know she could've done it if the intention was there. Take Saving Chloe for example, where Paul similarly has opportunities to go for different ladies and have wholesome endings with them (Xara path results in the hottest scenes), and while they're obviously non-canon, there was much more effort put into each of them to make each path viable, even the ones that lead to bad endings. Or, the latest Elsaverse Transitions where Jason similarly cheats on Elsa, but we have more context into his feelings, he has genuine reasons to feel confused/afraid/betrayed which would make him emotionally vulnerable. Even though I still dislike the outcome (had some strong opinion about his stupidity over in Discord), I get him. He did a very dumb thing, but it's understandable where he was coming from. Or even CtGwC where you can go for a different sister, the game provides sound reasons to question if you want to continue this way or you think going for another sister would probably be a better idea...

As for James though, "you cheated on your wife because you got fired" is a very weak premise and basically already tells (but not shows) how much of a self-centered prick he is if Keeley didn't actively contribute to the conflict. If she was an innocent victim of his extremely selfish impulse, then the conflict doesn't work because it's very one-sided, and there's 0 motivation to root for James or go for the "Wild and Free" path without proper context for his relationship status with Keeley and his overall feelings about the way he cheated or even the sexy neighbor, and the first instinct is to beg for Keeley's forgiveness because she was such a good wife (as we're told and saw in the previous games) and didn't deserve any of it, but missing on the content kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe getting to know that neighbor a bit (either in the flashback or during a random encounter that would trigger the moment of reflection) could've helped make the player understand James more. If his path is designed to encourage the player to hit it on with different ladies, then it should give some external character motivation to do so. If James feels resentment towards Keeley, then the narrative should back it up and show some examples of Keeley's fuckups in providing comfort or whatnot, otherwise, there's no joy in playing a self-absorbed man-child that can't take any responsibility for his actions. As it is, we're left in the dark, and the only conclusion that comes to mind is that James is an unforgivable asshole, and not just a guy who made a mistake... Or YOU (the player) are an asshole for playing this way apparently, and that's why you get either the bad ending for trying to play James like a conflicted person not knowing what he wants and whether his wants are even possible (like a real human being). Or you don't get any content (besides being a voyeur) until the very final scene which kinda defeats the purpose of having his playable part at all. It causes a ludonarrative dissonance where the game design and narrative are at odds with each other (sexy content => bad ending, no content => good ending). Having just one extra path (where you only fuck one extra girl but not your friend and never do the revenge-porn while being honest about it to Keeley) leading to an alternative good ending (or a neutral open-end where you don't know if it will be good or not), would solve this problem that I have because you would still be able to follow the original premise, get an interesting role-play opportunity, and get a decent (somewhat) ending.

TL;DR, just because James' part was an after-thought, doesn't mean that its narrative couldn't have been written with as much care as Claryce's part if Tlaero committed to doing so, which is proven by the other Elsaverse games that provide both the freedom of choice (even if they ultimately lead to endings that are not canon) and a lot of better-written sexy content which would satisfy that particular crowd AND the players who want a deeper narrative as well. Didn't have to be "either, or" and instead everyone could have the best of both worlds.
 

moskyx

Engaged Member
Jun 17, 2019
3,970
12,781
I know that Tlaero felt like writing a Claryce story and it shows, but since the decision was made to include James' side as well that would have lots of sexy scenes, having some deeper narrative to back it up would've made for a much better game overall. And I know she could've done it if the intention was there. Take Saving Chloe for example, where Paul similarly has opportunities to go for different ladies and have wholesome endings with them (Xara path results in the hottest scenes), and while they're obviously non-canon, there was much more effort put into each of them to make each path viable, even the ones that lead to bad endings. Or, the latest Elsaverse Transitions where Jason similarly cheats on Elsa, but we have more context into his feelings, he has genuine reasons to feel confused/afraid/betrayed which would make him emotionally vulnerable. Even though I still dislike the outcome (had some strong opinion about his stupidity over in Discord), I get him. He did a very dumb thing, but it's understandable where he was coming from. Or even CtGwC where you can go for a different sister, the game provides sound reasons to question if you want to continue this way or you think going for another sister would probably be a better idea...

As for James though, "you cheated on your wife because you got fired" is a very weak premise and basically already tells (but not shows) how much of a self-centered prick he is if Keeley didn't actively contribute to the conflict. If she was an innocent victim of his extremely selfish impulse, then the conflict doesn't work because it's very one-sided, and there's 0 motivation to root for James or go for the "Wild and Free" path without proper context for his relationship status with Keeley and his overall feelings about the way he cheated or even the sexy neighbor, and the first instinct is to beg for Keeley's forgiveness because she was such a good wife (as we're told and saw in the previous games) and didn't deserve any of it, but missing on the content kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe getting to know that neighbor a bit (either in the flashback or during a random encounter that would trigger the moment of reflection) could've helped make the player understand James more. If his path is designed to encourage the player to hit it on with different ladies, then it should give some external character motivation to do so. If James feels resentment towards Keeley, then the narrative should back it up and show some examples of Keeley's fuckups in providing comfort or whatnot, otherwise, there's no joy in playing a self-absorbed man-child that can't take any responsibility for his actions. As it is, we're left in the dark, and the only conclusion that comes to mind is that James is an unforgivable asshole, and not just a guy who made a mistake... Or YOU (the player) are an asshole for playing this way apparently, and that's why you get either the bad ending for trying to play James like a conflicted person not knowing what he wants and whether his wants are even possible (like a real human being). Or you don't get any content (besides being a voyeur) until the very final scene which kinda defeats the purpose of having his playable part at all. It causes a ludonarrative dissonance where the game design and narrative are at odds with each other (sexy content => bad ending, no content => good ending). Having just one extra path (where you only fuck one extra girl but not your friend and never do the revenge-porn while being honest about it to Keeley) leading to an alternative good ending (or a neutral open-end where you don't know if it will be good or not), would solve this problem that I have because you would still be able to follow the original premise, get an interesting role-play opportunity, and get a decent (somewhat) ending.

TL;DR, just because James' part was an after-thought, doesn't mean that its narrative couldn't have been written with as much care as Claryce's part if Tlaero committed to doing so, which is proven by the other Elsaverse games that provide both the freedom of choice (even if they ultimately lead to endings that are not canon) and a lot of better-written sexy content which would satisfy that particular crowd AND the players who want a deeper narrative as well. Didn't have to be "either, or" and instead everyone could have the best of both worlds.
I could agree on most points, but if you really don't see why a succesful man (even a true gentleman as the old James was) can be dragged down on a self-destructive spiralling after being fired and losing everything he has been building professionally for years, on a situation that only gets worse every time his perfect wife tries to help him because that good-wife behaviour only adds on to his own misery, because every time he sees her he can only see the succesful man he was not so long ago, and just because all of that he starts to feel resentment against her, confusing her well-intentioned attempts to support him with mere patronizing, if he actually feels like shit for being in that state but he just can't find anything else after months of trying, if he starts to feel like a burden to her... then I feel happy for you as it's obvious you've never being in such a delicate position. I was never there either, fortunately, but I don't need to see that neighbour to understand that finding a person who is in that very same position can make you feel better to the point to even forget who's the one who actually loves you (and who you actually love), as you feel this new one really understands you, unlike your perfect wife.

Then it's up to the player to decide if they want James to man up and fight for the one he still loves, admitting all his faults, or just want to forget about that woman and start a new life as a horny teenager trapped in a middle-aged man body (and I personally know a few of the latter in real life). I feel the narrative is there, although obviously limited by the quick succession of sex scenes. But the premise is clear and the paths are set for players to explore. Then yeah, maybe the execution could have been a little bit better. But take into account she was trying to please those who never cared about the narrative to begin with, and only asked for mor sexual and kinkier content where the man could choose freely who to bang.
 

Avaron1974

Resident Lesbian
Aug 22, 2018
25,169
86,199
TL;DR, just because James' part was an after-thought, doesn't mean that its narrative couldn't have been written with as much care as Claryce's part if Tlaero committed to doing so, which is proven by the other Elsaverse games that provide both the freedom of choice (even if they ultimately lead to endings that are not canon) and a lot of better-written sexy content which would satisfy that particular crowd AND the players who want a deeper narrative as well. Didn't have to be "either, or" and instead everyone could have the best of both worlds.
I think you are missing the point.

The route for James isn't deeper by design. It's literally just there to add some sex scenes.

James isn't an afterthought it's literally there just for the sex scenes because some people wanted sex without the story. You are asking for depth to a route that isn't meant to be. It's not an actual route.

We all know Tlaero can write, some of us have been following her work for years, I class myself as a massive fangirl. You are preaching to the choir.

The point is there is no depth to James route because she didn't want to add depth to it. It's literally tacked on to keep a few people happy not aimed at being a full story to sink into.

The only story that was aimed at being told was Claryce but they decided to try to please a larger group of people so bolted on some sex scenes and tacked it together with as little story as possible by design.

If you are asking her to commit fully to the story she wanted to tell then there is a very high chance James wouldn't have a route at all.
 

Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,034
5,080
BloodyMares is also a long time fan. It's totally cool that he's giving so much feedback. I like the discussion.

Tlaero
 
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Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,034
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I could agree on most points, but if you really don't see why a succesful man (even a true gentleman as the old James was) can be dragged down on a self-destructive spiralling after being fired and losing everything he has been building professionally for years, on a situation that only gets worse every time his perfect wife tries to help him because that good-wife behaviour only adds on to his own misery, because every time he sees her he can only see the succesful man he was not so long ago, and just because all of that he starts to feel resentment against her, confusing her well-intentioned attempts to support him with mere patronizing, if he actually feels like shit for being in that state but he just can't find anything else after months of trying, if he starts to feel like a burden to her... then I feel happy for you as it's obvious you've never being in such a delicate position. I was never there either, fortunately, but I don't need to see that neighbour to understand that finding a person who is in that very same position can make you feel better to the point to even forget who's the one who actually loves you (and who you actually love), as you feel this new one really understands you, unlike your perfect wife.
This matches my thinking on how James fell. Of course, moskys is in a position to seriously understand my intent, since he spends so much effort translating my work. Thank you, moskys!

Tlaero
 

Bossk

Newbie
Jun 13, 2020
66
341
Precisely the double standard I'm talking about. While yes - feelings are something we can't control most of the time, we can instead control our actions and what we do with those feelings. As far as the story goes, Keeley and James were in the process of 'figuring things out' as they had not by that point decided to call it quits for good. Keeley could have feasibly ended her relationship with James permanently, before engaging with Claryce.
There are mitigating circumstances, but regardless, in certain aspects the situations are equal. And just because we're not given a vocalization of James' feelings throughout his story, it doesn't mean he wasn't using meaningless sex in a bad attempt to work through his own issues. As it stands, the story is presented in a one-sided manner, which is why I believe the James path is viewed negatively. Whether one agrees that James deserves a second chance or not, I think it would have made for a much more interesting story if his side was better explored.

Edit: Just to clear it up - I'm talking about James having sex with other women during the 'break', for which he is accordingly judged by Keeley, even though she might have done the same during that time. I'm not excusing his initial cheating. I also don't excuse him if he does the 'video' thing, which is obviously specifically meant to hurt Keeley.

That depends on how you played the game, if you avoided the James route, there was, to my recollection, never any serious mention of working things out. in fact I dont recall any mention worth noting. I do recall James getting all possessive and demanding and threatening Claryce who shoulda kneecapped his ass, but didn't.

Double standard also does not exist in the case of infidelity, once you make the choice to and follow through with cheating you have lost 100% of the moral high ground. You are not a victim who is misunderstood, you aren't owed another chance, there is no quid pro quo where you can say "im sorry" and then expect everything to go back the way it was and you are not allowed to get upset when the person you cheated on doesn't immediately forgive and forget.

IF you are lucky the person you cheated on MIGHT be willing to work things out and let you atone. but that doesnt shield you from the repercussions of your actions. Every indicator I saw re-James painted him as a petulant unrepentant manchild who threw a fit because Keely would not let him off the hook when he banged other girls while trying to convince her he was not going to cheat again.

Bottom line is he had zero legitimate grievances against Keely or Claryce other than his bruised male ego. Doesnt matter if Keely and Claryce did it on his front lawn, he had no leg to stand on and Keely did not "cheat" on him. He rolled the dice, lost and lost Keely to a person who actually cared about her.
 
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Avaron1974

Resident Lesbian
Aug 22, 2018
25,169
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I dismiss James because I don't like cheats, never have.

Never saw the point of being with someone if you are going to sleep with other people, it puts people in a position to be hurt for no reason.

Trust is also a huge part of any relationship. If there is no trust there is no relationship.

James shit the bed and now he has to lay in it alone.
 

Blades1138

Active Member
Jul 29, 2017
539
1,140
I dismiss James because I don't like cheats, never have.

Never saw the point of being with someone if you are going to sleep with other people, it puts people in a position to be hurt for no reason.

Trust is also a huge part of any relationship. If there is no trust there is no relationship.

James shit the bed and now he has to lay in it alone.
I agree with you for the most part, but it's made clear in the story that James didn't act with the mindset of "I'll fuck whichever girl I get the chance to" when he had the affair, nor did he have malicious intent. It's true that trust once broken can almost never be repaired, but in specific cases I subscribe to the policy 'give a second chance, but never a third'. People make mistakes and in rare cases will actually learn from them, through the pain of regret and guilt.

Going back to James - the motivation for the initial cheating is explained, but what follows is a binary choice between two diametrically opposite paths with no build up to them. He either goes into man-whore mode, or the reasons for his initial cheating are resolved through instant realization. It's feasible the groundwork for either path has been laid in the past, but we as players are not witness to that. Thus James' characterization falls flat, which I believe causes the most disappointment among fans.

Tlaero is clearly aware of her strengths and weaknesses when it comes to male MC characters. I think one of the reasons RfJ is highly regarded is that Mark is one of the most well-rounded guys she's written. I personally like Blake in DF as well, even though he seems to take a step back during some of his scenes with Won. Still, when it comes down to it, we can all criticize and nitpick after the fact. But only the writer knows the amount of effort it takes to bring their characters to life.
 
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BloodyMares

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Dec 4, 2017
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I could agree on most points, but if you really don't see why a succesful man (even a true gentleman as the old James was) can be dragged down on a self-destructive spiralling after being fired and losing everything he has been building professionally for years, on a situation that only gets worse every time his perfect wife tries to help him because that good-wife behaviour only adds on to his own misery, because every time he sees her he can only see the succesful man he was not so long ago, and just because all of that he starts to feel resentment against her, confusing her well-intentioned attempts to support him with mere patronizing, if he actually feels like shit for being in that state but he just can't find anything else after months of trying, if he starts to feel like a burden to her... then I feel happy for you as it's obvious you've never being in such a delicate position. I was never there either, fortunately, but I don't need to see that neighbour to understand that finding a person who is in that very same position can make you feel better to the point to even forget who's the one who actually loves you (and who you actually love), as you feel this new one really understands you, unlike your perfect wife.
Alright, but then it creates the following problems in the game:
1) It makes the protagonist an unlikeable and probably unredeemable douchelord that any sensible person would have a hard time sympathizing with. Regardless of whether he was feeling that way or not, it's born out of miscommunication. One really needs to have their head up their ass if they blame their loving wife who not only tries to carry everything on her shoulders but also tries her best to give him moral support. None of what he blames Keeley for is her fault. He should've gone to a shrink to deal with his issues, not rebel against Keeley by hurting her even more to the point of doing revenge porn. Villains that you can't sympathize with make for bad protagonists. Even psychopath Light in Death Note that you hate with each passing episode can feel like a tragic character that one might even say was a victim of circumstances that would drive any person mad. James doesn't have good enough reason to feel like a tragic character deserving some level of human compassion. In fact, it makes you happier that Keeley found Claryce, and if that's the case, it just makes James feel like a glorified plot device to give Keeley freedom so she and Claryce can be together.

2) That connection that he shared with that neighbor is simply not in the game, otherwise, it might not only end up being a one-night stand that he never thinks about again, but it would make him develop a bit of a crush for her and create a conflict in him where he's torn apart by all the years spent with Keeley or the newfound excitement and sense of "pride and accomplishment" that this neighbor made him feel. But because we never see their chemistry, it makes it hard to try and put yourself into his shoes where you would be willing to find excuses for that cheating. I feel like a path where James would want to follow his heart and try to build a relationship with her would be more natural for that premise you described. I just don't see how he goes from sharing an intimate moment with a person who makes him feel valuable, to a desire to fuck as many random girls as possible. There's a missing link between point A and point B.

The point is there is no depth to James route because she didn't want to add depth to it. It's literally tacked on to keep a few people happy not aimed at being a full story to sink into.
Wouldn't it be better to do it by making it into a separate game altogether then and market it as a quick jerk-off material that doesn't have a trademark narrative? But because it's in the same game as Claryce's adventure, it all feels disjointed and his part reeks of lazy writing in comparison. Even if it's by design, it doesn't make for a good first impression. Knowing the BTS reasons for that is the only way to make sense of why it feels so odd.

Let's take GGGB into example. It also had some paths designed specifically for smut and non-stop crazy sex (like the Bimbo/Whore paths that I wasn't really into) which in contrast with Good Girl path felt very outrageous and crazy in tone, but the writing quality in all parts to me felt consistent (some landed better than the other of course), even if eventually those routes turn into a porn-fest without interesting story developments, the buildup and resolution are still there.

James' part in its entirety on the other hand feels like trolling because if we play the intended way and don't care about fixing things with Keeley, James gets a bad ending where an alternative good ending not featuring Keeley might've helped feeling better about the whole experience (similar to GtKC alternative ending that you get if you refuse to do what Christine asks of you). As it is, you only get a payoff if you DON'T play the intended way where James suddenly learns humility, but that realization feels too sudden and artificial. I wouldn't mind an ending where James finds new love with some girl that helps him feel like a man in the house again if that's what he truly desires. Or maybe he finally manages to deal with his issues and losing Keeley helps him grow as a person and understand his priorities. But if he does go out of his way to hurt Keeley more for his completely made-up reasons that have nothing to do with reality, then he deserves jail time for all I care.


I dismiss James because I don't like cheats, never have. Never saw the point of being with someone if you are going to sleep with other people, it puts people in a position to be hurt for no reason.
Is Jason dead to you as well since he kinda did the same to Elsa, even though she might not care enough about their relationship at this point and was the first one to compromise it by leaving and ghosting him? I also don't like cheats, but I love redemption stories. Where despite previous fuck-ups, a character still deserves to have a chance and find happiness as long as they strive to do the right thing in the end. This is why Chloe is my second favorite character after all (Xara takes the cake) and her sins were much more serious than simply breaking someone's heart, but I was still rooting for her to get rid of her abusive father and find happiness with Paul instead of going to prison for being the accomplice in blackmail, murder, and even terrorist attacks.

I feel like relationships are not really tested unless you end up in a situation where you're tempted to just forget about monogamy for one moment and enjoy the primal ways of our promiscuous ancestors. And some people just don't have the iron will to resist that temptation and fail that test. But how they deal with this afterward is what matters. I know some couples that only got stronger because of that first cheating mistake because it helped them realize that their love for their partner is much stronger and more important that no immediate pleasures would make it worth losing their soulmate. In some instances, the other half doesn't even know about the cheating that happened, but as long as they closed off that chapter in their life and are dedicated to making their partner feel loved and cared for, then I don't personally see the need to expose them and ruin their happy relationship because they're not the same people that they were at the moment of the cheating. And sometimes, even in examples where cheating leads to a breakup, people can grow from this experience and properly cherish their next relationship.
 
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moskyx

Engaged Member
Jun 17, 2019
3,970
12,781
Alright, but then it creates the following problems in the game:
1) It makes the protagonist an unlikeable and probably unredeemable douchelord that any sensible person would have a hard time sympathizing with. Regardless of whether he was feeling that way or not, it's born out of miscommunication. One really needs to have their head up their ass if they blame their loving wife who not only tries to carry everything on her shoulders but also tries her best to give him moral support. None of what he blames Keeley for is her fault. He should've gone to a shrink to deal with his issues, not rebel against Keeley by hurting her even more to the point of doing revenge porn. Villains that you can't sympathize with make for bad protagonists. Even psychopath Light in Death Note that you hate with each passing episode can feel like a tragic character that one might even say was a victim of circumstances that would drive any person mad. James doesn't have good enough reason to feel like a tragic character deserving some level of human compassion. In fact, it makes you happier that Keeley found Claryce, and if that's the case, it just makes James feel like a glorified plot device to give Keeley freedom so she and Claryce can be together.

2) That connection that he shared with that neighbor is simply not in the game, otherwise, it might not only end up being a one-night stand that he never thinks about again, but it would make him develop a bit of a crush for her and create a conflict in him where he's torn apart by all the years spent with Keeley or the newfound excitement and sense of "pride and accomplishment" that this neighbor made him feel. But because we never see their chemistry, it makes it hard to try and put yourself into his shoes where you would be willing to find excuses for that cheating. I feel like a path where James would want to follow his heart and try to build a relationship with her would be more natural for that premise you described. I just don't see how he goes from sharing an intimate moment with a person who makes him feel valuable, to a desire to fuck as many random girls as possible. There's a missing link between point A and point B.


Wouldn't it be better to do it by making it into a separate game altogether then and market it as a quick jerk-off material that doesn't have a trademark narrative? But because it's in the same game as Claryce's adventure, it all feels disjointed and his part reeks of lazy writing in comparison. Even if it's by design, it doesn't make for a good first impression. Knowing the BTS reasons for that is the only way to make sense of why it feels so odd.

Let's take GGGB into example. It also had some paths designed specifically for smut and non-stop crazy sex (like the Bimbo/Whore paths that I wasn't really into) which in contrast with Good Girl path felt very outrageous and crazy in tone, but the writing quality in all parts to me felt consistent (some landed better than the other of course), even if eventually those routes turn into a porn-fest without interesting story developments, the buildup and resolution are still there.

James' part in its entirety on the other hand feels like trolling because if we play the intended way and don't care about fixing things with Keeley, James gets a bad ending where an alternative good ending not featuring Keeley might've helped feeling better about the whole experience (similar to GtKC alternative ending that you get if you refuse to do what Christine asks of you). As it is, you only get a payoff if you DON'T play the intended way where James suddenly learns humility, but that realization feels too sudden and artificial. I wouldn't mind an ending where James finds new love with some girl that helps him feel like a man in the house again if that's what he truly desires. Or maybe he finally manages to deal with his issues and losing Keeley helps him grow as a person and understand his priorities. But if he does go out of his way to hurt Keeley more for his completely made-up reasons that have nothing to do with reality, then he deserves jail time for all I care.



Is Jason dead to you as well since he kinda did the same to Elsa, even though she might not care enough about their relationship at this point and was the first one to compromise it by leaving and ghosting him? I also don't like cheats, but I love redemption stories. Where despite previous fuck-ups, a character still deserves to have a chance and find happiness as long as they strive to do the right thing in the end. This is why Chloe is my second favorite character after all (Xara takes the cake) and her sins were much more serious than simply breaking someone's heart, but I was still rooting for her to get rid of her abusive father and find happiness with Paul instead of going to prison for being the accomplice in blackmail, murder, and even terrorist attacks.

I feel like relationships are not really tested unless you end up in a situation where you're tempted to just forget about monogamy for one moment and enjoy the primal ways of our promiscuous ancestors. And some people just don't have the iron will to resist that temptation and fail that test. But how they deal with this afterward is what matters. I know some couples that only got stronger because of that first cheating mistake because it helped them realize that their love for their partner is much stronger and more important that no immediate pleasures would make it worth losing their soulmate. In some instances, the other half doesn't even know about the cheating that happened, but as long as they closed off that chapter in their life and are dedicated to making their partner feel loved and cared for, then I don't personally see the need to expose them and ruin their happy relationship because they're not the same people that they were at the moment of the cheating. And sometimes, even in examples where cheating leads to a breakup, people can grow from this experience and properly cherish their next relationship.
I honestly think you're mixing the character's basic setup with some choices the player can make along the game. And also you're forgettng people have flaws, people is unfair to others all the time, people don't inmediately realize what they've doing wrong and tend to excuse themselves by blaming others. Which is what we have here. I've already explained James' initial state of mind that led him to cheating. Because I'm a sensible person as you say but also a sensitive one, I can understand his position and why he did what he did even though I'd never do nor condone what he did - but that's for Keeley to decide. After all, in the old LwK she was already afraid she may lose him because she wasn't offering him enough spicy things in bed, and I feel that's important too to understand James' character - that lewd drive were always there, but being a succesful man hid it until he was no longer successful and his true, maybe dark and immature himself came out. Then the player comes in and has to decide which path to follow. You talk about the revenge porn as a given but that's entirely a player's choice, of course if you choose to do that there's no way back and you're a complete asshole but again it's your choice. You can make your James a man whore who decide to forget about Keeley, even in the most depicable way, blaming her for your own faults, and of course a man like that would find it difficult to set up a new healthy relationship with someone else. But it's you, the player, who is deciding to make James that way. If you find him repulsive... well, don't follow that repulsive path where he becomes a total scumbag. That's entirely on you (and that's the author's intention). In Claryce's path he needs to be like that in order to 'force' Keeley to move on and accept to explore her feelings for Claryce, but in his path everything is on you.

About the missing neighbour who seems to be so important to you, there are tons of reasons why we don't actually need her in the story. Even a total scumbag James might understand that fling was a mistake, also Keeley threw him out of home so meeting her could be a bit more complicated than before, and most importantly we don't know how this neighbour felt about the whole situation - maybe it was her who cut off any ties with him. She's just the trigger event for the story, she was in the right place at the right moment and her role ends there. EDIT.- In fact, by not showing her the player should get he didn't cheat because she's an amazing woman, one that he could develop feelings for, but just a casual and convenient fling. If we don't see her, we won't feel anything for her either.

What I feel James' redemption path lacks is a bit more of internal monologue in which he realizes all the damage he has done to Keeley. The feeling I got after finishing that path was that the lesson he learned was 'OK, I fucked this neighbour and that was a mistake so from now on I won't fuck anybody else', but in my opinion it should have been a more meaningful one. After all, assuming the cheating came from him being lost (probably for the first time in his succesful life), he should have reflected a bit more on how he got to that point, what was Keeley actually doing and how unfair he was being with her. In every sex scene he rejects he could have learned a bit more about himself, and texts could have showed it better. After all, everything is there: first, the former co-worker who reassures you Keeley was deeply in love with you, then the cheating wife to reflect how stupid all this situation is when you have someone who loves you, the long-time friend to show you how it feels from the 'cheated' side when that person is giving all her love to her husband, then the new job opportunity to show he was slowly going back in track, and then the two main choices about the revenge porn and Keisha to show you still love and respect Keeley. But as you point out in the end it comes out as an instant realization, like he already knew all of this from the start, thus making the whole path to feel flat.
 
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BloodyMares

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Dec 4, 2017
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About the missing neighbour who seems to be so important to you, there are tons of reasons why we don't actually need her in the story. Even a total scumbag James might understand that fling was a mistake, also Keeley threw him out of home so meeting her could be a bit more complicated than before, and most importantly we don't know how this neighbour felt about the whole situation - maybe it was her who cut off any ties with him.
All I'm saying is that it would've been nice to learn all these IMO important details about James' character from the game itself to better understand him as a person, instead of speculating what might have happened. James is not a blank slate of a character for myself to self-insert, his history, and initial status is already pre-established, I don't write his character along the way by making those choices, merely guide him to the desired outcome. Every decision James can make is supposed to be canonically true to his character, and I just wanted to know the full context of his situation and his thought process before committing to any choice so I could understand which justification would fit the canon world. If the justification feels good enough for me, then I might feel swayed to pick that choice. If it's not, then I'd go the opposite direction. But I can't come up with my own justifications for the character I didn't write, so it would be immersion-breaking if I had to do that myself. If my only motivation to pick a certain choice is the meta-decision to see all content, then it pulls me out of the narrative and reminds me that I'm merely playing a game and not experiencing a story.
 
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Avakao

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I'll be honest BloodyMares, I understand you trying to find a way for James, really. But in the end, what happens is what happened. James' route is there, but in my opinion, it shouldn't. It is to try to pleasing players who wouldn't want to play as a female lesbian protag. That's how I see it.
I believe reading at some point that it was a mistake to try and please all by adding his route since it's clear that Claryce was supposed to be the main route.
James in that scenario wasn't worthy of sympathy, he was there to add a reason why Keeley and Claryce met, and to add a reason why they would be togheter.

My most sincere opinion, If instead of working his route the Claryce side was longer and with more content, this would be easily the best lesbian romance out there, period. (it's already one of my favorites even being so short. I love lesbian romance, I'm one. But It's hard to find anything that is really good or where the characters act like actual human beings.

Claryce's side is beautifully done, in a way that honestly very few games made me feel so good in playing. Seeing that just to please those who would want porn without much context James' route was added was a mistake, and if you keep trying to find any reasons to seek a way to make it better, the only way would be rewriting his whole side of the story and making it in a way that even then wouldn't please everyone. So I doubt that will ever happen.
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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All I'm saying is that it would've been nice to learn all these IMO important details about James' character from the game itself to better understand him as a person, instead of speculating what might have happened. James is not a blank slate of a character for myself to self-insert, his history, and initial status is already pre-established, I don't write his character along the way by making those choices, merely guide him to the desired outcome. Every decision James can make is supposed to be canonically true to his character, and I just wanted to know the full context of his situation and his thought process before committing to any choice so I could understand which justification would fit the canon world. If the justification feels good enough for me, then I might feel swayed to pick that choice. If it's not, then I'd go the opposite direction. But I can't come up with my own justifications for the character I didn't write, so it would be immersion-breaking if I had to do that myself. If my only motivation to pick a certain choice is the meta-decision to see all content, then it pulls me out of the narrative and reminds me that I'm merely playing a game and not experiencing a story.
Then it's just that his path was not made for your type of playing. I understand your idea of immersion but that's not a broad extended concept for it: most players think in 'immersion' as the agency given to them to act the way THEY want to act, without the restraints of having to stay true to a pre-written character.

But, anyway, James' situation IS explained in game, I'm not coming up with it, I've just written an extended version. And it's clear from the start that, if he wants Keeley to take him back, he can't keep fucking around. Then you as a player choose what he/you would do with all those chances he get along the way, considering what your desired outcome is. You set the canon while playing, you don't need to adjust yourself to a pre-existing canon. Even Tlaero has said she doesn't have a canon herself for (hypotetical) future games in this universe.

That said, I don't really think this game is so much different in that sense from Saving Chloe. There's an initial situation and then you choose which path do you want Paul to explore. Obviously in SC there's a canonical path for the sake of Elsaverse's continuity, but the game also tells you that you're free to consider any other ending as your canon, if you like it better. So it could be that you just didn't like that 'man whore' James just bangs everything in sight and never establish a new relationship, thus preventing you from getting a 'happy ending' by your standards? That added to the 'flat' feeling I mentioned in the last post
 

moskyx

Engaged Member
Jun 17, 2019
3,970
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I'll be honest BloodyMares, I understand you trying to find a way for James, really. But in the end, what happens is what happened. James' route is there, but in my opinion, it shouldn't. It is to try to pleasing players who wouldn't want to play as a female lesbian protag. That's how I see it.
I believe reading at some point that it was a mistake to try and please all by adding his route since it's clear that Claryce was supposed to be the main route.
James in that scenario wasn't worthy of sympathy, he was there to add a reason why Keeley and Claryce met, and to add a reason why they would be togheter.

My most sincere opinion, If instead of working his route the Claryce side was longer and with more content, this would be easily the best lesbian romance out there, period. (it's already one of my favorites even being so short. I love lesbian romance, I'm one. But It's hard to find anything that is really good or where the characters act like actual human beings.

Claryce's side is beautifully done, in a way that honestly very few games made me feel so good in playing. Seeing that just to please those who would want porn without much context James' route was added was a mistake, and if you keep trying to find any reasons to seek a way to make it better, the only way would be rewriting his whole side of the story and making it in a way that even then wouldn't please everyone. So I doubt that will ever happen.
As I told Tlaero after releasing this game, Claryce and Keeley route (especially if you choose to be friends at first and then become a couple) is the most touching love relationship I've ever read from her, and I wouldn't have minded it to be a little longer. It's up there with the hinted rising romance between Xara and Sa'al in 'Demon Witch' short story (you should read that, if you haven't done it yet) and that makes two lesbian relationships in my top 2 love stories (the second even with furry elements to it, ffs). And I'm a straight male. It just shows her ability to write about these feelings.

I don't think Bloody Mares is trying hard to find a way for James, though; quite the opposite. I think he deeply agrees with you, for him James' path is seriously lacking and it would have been better to just remove it altogether - or remake it in a completely other way. But, as it's there, he's just pointing out its flaws and shortcomings. And it's me who's trying to give it a sense (at this point just for the sake of discussion, if I'm being honest: as you've said, when even the author herself admits it was a mistake to include it, there's little else to discuss)
 

Bossk

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Jun 13, 2020
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Claryce route is the only true route imo. I had zero desire to even touch the James route because he IS an unredeemable douchelord. who the player MIGHT be able to wring some redemption out of if they squint and get really close to the screen. But he isnt really worthy of it, just the way he acts all stalker creepy and possessive in the Claryce encounter is enough to turn me off his route totally.

IMO it takes a special kind of mental gymnastics to see James as some kind of aggrieved party and then paint Keeley, the victim, and Calryce. the innocent third party who came into the story AFTER the cheating happened, as the villains because poor poor james couldnt keep his dick in his pants but should be forgiven cause reasons and probably.. lets see... whats the standard defense... oh yeah the girl he cheated with tricked him into it. he was powerless. Keeley should have tried harder . he was drunk etc etc etc *insert generic boys will be boys excuse here*.
 
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BloodyMares

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Dec 4, 2017
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Seeing that just to please those who would want porn without much context James' route was added was a mistake, and if you keep trying to find any reasons to seek a way to make it better, the only way would be rewriting his whole side of the story and making it in a way that even then wouldn't please everyone. So I doubt that will ever happen.
Oh, I don't have any desire to actually rewrite the game. Tlaero put a lot of her effort into it and requesting a rewrite would be just disrespectful of that. It's not like James is my favorite character or anything. If I were to rank him as a playable male character, he'd be at the very bottom. It is what it is. I just like talking about the writing and game design, dissecting the problems, and seeing what issues could've been avoided to make it a well-rounded experience for both parties, as Tlaero intended. That said, I wouldn't mind it if we get "Life Changes for Keeley: Tlaero Cut" where James isn't playable, and the main story is even a bit extended if Tlaero and Mortze felt like expanding it.

Then it's just that his path was not made for your type of playing. I understand your idea of immersion but that's not a broad extended concept for it: most players think in 'immersion' as the agency given to them to act the way THEY want to act, without the restraints of having to stay true to a pre-written character.
There's a fine balance between player agency (which I like) and character consistency (which I like even more). I enjoy pre-established characters like Geralt of Rivia or Ian/Lena in Our Red String, where no matter which route you pick, some basic character details are unchangeable. On one hand, it limits what you can do, but on another, it adds to the characters feeling like real people which helps with immersion. Even if you imagine yourself being the playable character, I'm sure there is some baggage and moral standards that you can't simply change about yourself. You can't simply choose to become an asshole if you're a good person and vice-versa. You can only choose your day-to-day actions that add to your character. You can grow or regress, but you can't become someone else. James on the other hand feels very inconsistent, to the point of seeming like 2 completely different people.

That said, I don't really think this game is so much different in that sense from Saving Chloe. There's an initial situation and then you choose which path do you want Paul to explore. Obviously in SC there's a canonical path for the sake of Elsaverse's continuity, but the game also tells you that you're free to consider any other ending as your canon, if you like it better. So it could be that you just didn't like that 'man whore' James just bangs everything in sight and never establish a new relationship, thus preventing you from getting a 'happy ending' by your standards? That added to the 'flat' feeling I mentioned in the last post
On paper, yes, both James path and SC have a "choose your adventure" style of storytelling. However, it's all about execution.

In SC unlike in James path, the narrative is VERY developed, all of the choices are viable because you can imagine Paul making either of them depending on how far he's willing to go for the girl he used to love in high school or how much he cares about the whole supernatural plot or saving the city from Morland. Since Paul only has a history with Chloe and Miranda, it's quite easy to step into his shoes and experience the world from his unique perspective of being both familiar with Chloe and her family as well as being a meta, but also being an uninterested/unbiased party in the conflict and having his own normal life. Serena's path alone is written so well that you're feeling kinda sad that they're not meant to be, and that's only one of the side paths. Almost every branch can lead to a satisfying ending with exception of those where someone dies, and some endings don't even feature Chloe. Despite having a canon story, it actually gives MORE player agency than James has. Imagine if despite all the choices and paths, you got only 2 endings: Chloe good and Chloe bad (where either you or she or you both die). It wouldn't really make you want to explore other options if all of them resulted in a bad ending for Paul. Additionally, every choice gives Paul a proper motivation to go with. If he values his normal life above all and cares about Serena, then he can stay with her and choose to forget about Chloe. Or he can run away with Chloe if he doesn't care about the whole external conflict which is also a very good outcome for Paul and Chloe (but not so much for Xara's Angels). In every path, Paul feels like a protagonist you want to root for and in every path you know his motivation and goals very well, you know his morality which is unchanging, which helps to get to know him as a person who is separate from the player. You can make choices that fit the characterization Tlaero has given him. And being single also helps of course, so that the player doesn't have any burden or guilt to explore other choices.

James on the other hand doesn't have any of this, or at least it's not executed as well. You can't really know James because he always adapts to your choices which makes him feel less like a consistent character if his morality is inconsistent as well, and it's hard to come up with his morality on your own if the game withholds some information about the event that caused all that mess in the first place.
 

moskyx

Engaged Member
Jun 17, 2019
3,970
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Oh, I don't have any desire to actually rewrite the game. Tlaero put a lot of her effort into it and requesting a rewrite would be just disrespectful of that. It's not like James is my favorite character or anything. If I were to rank him as a playable male character, he'd be at the very bottom. It is what it is. I just like talking about the writing and game design, dissecting the problems, and seeing what issues could've been avoided to make it a well-rounded experience for both parties, as Tlaero intended. That said, I wouldn't mind it if we get "Life Changes for Keeley: Tlaero Cut" where James isn't playable, and the main story is even a bit extended if Tlaero and Mortze felt like expanding it.


There's a fine balance between player agency (which I like) and character consistency (which I like even more). I enjoy pre-established characters like Geralt of Rivia or Ian/Lena in Our Red String, where no matter which route you pick, some basic character details are unchangeable. On one hand, it limits what you can do, but on another, it adds to the characters feeling like real people which helps with immersion. Even if you imagine yourself being the playable character, I'm sure there is some baggage and moral standards that you can't simply change about yourself. You can't simply choose to become an asshole if you're a good person and vice-versa. You can only choose your day-to-day actions that add to your character. You can grow or regress, but you can't become someone else. James on the other hand feels very inconsistent, to the point of seeming like 2 completely different people.


On paper, yes, both James path and SC have a "choose your adventure" style of storytelling. However, it's all about execution.

In SC unlike in James path, the narrative is VERY developed, all of the choices are viable because you can imagine Paul making either of them depending on how far he's willing to go for the girl he used to love in high school or how much he cares about the whole supernatural plot or saving the city from Morland. Since Paul only has a history with Chloe and Miranda, it's quite easy to step into his shoes and experience the world from his unique perspective of being both familiar with Chloe and her family as well as being a meta, but also being an uninterested/unbiased party in the conflict and having his own normal life. Serena's path alone is written so well that you're feeling kinda sad that they're not meant to be, and that's only one of the side paths. Almost every branch can lead to a satisfying ending with exception of those where someone dies, and some endings don't even feature Chloe. Despite having a canon story, it actually gives MORE player agency than James has. Imagine if despite all the choices and paths, you got only 2 endings: Chloe good and Chloe bad (where either you or she or you both die). It wouldn't really make you want to explore other options if all of them resulted in a bad ending for Paul. Additionally, every choice gives Paul a proper motivation to go with. If he values his normal life above all and cares about Serena, then he can stay with her and choose to forget about Chloe. Or he can run away with Chloe if he doesn't care about the whole external conflict which is also a very good outcome for Paul and Chloe (but not so much for Xara's Angels). In every path, Paul feels like a protagonist you want to root for and in every path you know his motivation and goals very well, you know his morality which is unchanging, which helps to get to know him as a person who is separate from the player. You can make choices that fit the characterization Tlaero has given him. And being single also helps of course, so that the player doesn't have any burden or guilt to explore other choices.

James on the other hand doesn't have any of this, or at least it's not executed as well. You can't really know James because he always adapts to your choices which makes him feel less like a consistent character if his morality is inconsistent as well, and it's hard to come up with his morality on your own if the game withholds some information about the event that caused all that mess in the first place.
I'll leave it here because now we're just going on circles. I do see all the info I need about the event that caused all the mess in the first place, you don't. I see having the option to shape my own James to fit my preferences one way or the other not as a character internal inconsistency but as a chance to experiment two different stories and gameplays, you don't. Therefore, all we can do is agreeing on that, in any case, his path could have been better written.

Claryce route is the only true route imo. I had zero desire to even touch the James route because he IS an unredeemable douchelord. who the player MIGHT be able to wring some redemption out of if they squint and get really close to the screen. But he isnt really worthy of it, just the way he acts all stalker creepy and possessive in the Claryce encounter is enough to turn me off his route totally.

IMO it takes a special kind of mental gymnastics to see James as some kind of aggrieved party and then paint Keeley, the victim, and Calryce. the innocent third party who came into the story AFTER the cheating happened, as the villains because poor poor james couldnt keep his dick in his pants but should be forgiven cause reasons and probably.. lets see... whats the standard defense... oh yeah the girl he cheated with tricked him into it. he was powerless. Keeley should have tried harder . he was drunk etc etc etc *insert generic boys will be boys excuse here*.
You're just portraying the canon James in Claryce's route as the only possible James when, in fact, James' route brings you the option to NOT be that James but a James who understands his mistake and tries to make it right for her. But I'm guessing you won't probably like the way that story is done.

I don't think anybody likes the bastard James we see in Claryce's route, and if there's someone out there who sympathize with him I feel very sorry for them and especially for their loved ones. In my opinion, those who still follow that route when playing as James do it for two main reasons: because it's needed in order to watch all the sex scenes; and because some people just don't care about the feelings nor the backstory portrayed in lewd games and just want their MC to bang everything that moves and then close the game, bust a nut and call it a day. Tlaero tried to pleased those ones and admits she failed, and that's it.
 
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Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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Someone once told me a story that explains "The Writer's Dilemma."

Eric Clapton has a live unplugged album. And, at the start of one song he says, "See if you can spot this one."
A few notes in, some people in the audience start clapping. They're so on Clapton's wavelength that they've already got it.
After the musical intro, Clapton starts singing, "What will you do if you get lonely..." and more people start clapping.
Then he gets to the chorus, "Layla..." and the rest of the audience starts clapping.

The writer's dilemma is this: How do you write a story that doesn't annoy the first group while being clear enough for the third one?

I usually try to put hints in for the first group, but aim for the second one.

Everything Moskys said about James is in there in the story. He didn't make any of that up. But it's written for the first group. I didn't bother trying to make it clear, because the audience I was trying to serve doesn't really read the text anyway. But I did think it through enough to make it work in my head, even if you have to be completely on my wavelength to get it.

As I said, though, the actual plan of writing a game that everyone could enjoy was an abject failure. Rather than putting in stuff for everyone, what I really did was put in stuff that everyone would dislike. I had people who like story only try the James path, and I had people who want porn only try the Claryce path.

I'm really enjoying this discussion. Thank you!

Tlaero
 
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