Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[tehlemon]

Errr... you don't have to be a supporter to see the Sub. Star posts. It's not like Patreon, where some authors lock posts behind a pay wall. It just that some people don't care about Sub. Star or simply don't know it exists, meaning they miss Inno's more "exclusive" posts. Even before the comment section got turned off, she would sometimes do this - write a post on Sub. Star but "forget" the blog.

mmmm, good to know

I still probably won't bother going to look at the sub star page lol

 

[Pentha]

Better way to describe it would be is that you are a passenger on slowest moving trainwreck. You have plenty of time to get of the train and doing so would be not that painful. But you paid for the ticket and so you are detirment to see the ride all way through the end just so you could say that you arrived somewhere. Not in the time you expected to and certanly not where you wanted to be. And ending up there was painful while leaving you unfulfilled and frustrated at conductor. But at least you can give it 2 and half star review for providing you experience that you could not get anywhere else.

i wish she'd just abandon the project and let her simps pay her for all eternity already, this endless waiting is tedious

 

[FictitiouslySane]

Better way to describe it would be is that you are a passenger on slowest moving trainwreck. You have plenty of time to get of the train and doing so would be not that painful. But you paid for the ticket and so you are detirment to see the ride all way through the end just so you could say that you arrived somewhere. Not in the time you expected to and certanly not where you wanted to be. And ending up there was painful while leaving you unfulfilled and frustrated at conductor. But at least you can give it 2 and half star review for providing you experience that you could not get anywhere else.

I remember feeling this way, but fortunately I've been off the train since 0.3.9. I just drop by occasionally to have a laugh at how messy Inno gets. There's hope out there, folks, it does get better. Having no emotional attachment to any of this does wonders to one's psyche.

 

[Scommbi]

Does anyone know how to get the spells Lilith's command and steal?

 

[Kallumin]

Does anyone know how to get the spells Lilith's command and steal?

Through using the BUGGY command. Just like you could only get teleportation through cheating until Inno implemented the quest to get the spell legit, steal and Lilith's command are planned to be quest rewards and can't be acquired in the game normally yet.

 

[Rainbowhead]

I honestly don't blame her for not putting this one on the blog. Having to turn off comments because everyone's laughing at how slow you are only to have to add another delay two weeks later? At least the project wouldn't look completely dead, I guess lol

Nobody is laughing at the speed of development, they're laughing at constant bait and switch, with Inno promising a new version only to delay every. single. time. If Inno were to only release updates at the same rate they do now and post nothing else, people would have both patience and respect. CoC1 was updated at an even slower pace, but people were okay with waiting, because Fen didn't post every week or two saying, "The update will be here any day now, I promise, guys".

 

[lechtoyz]

Nobody is laughing at the speed of development, they're laughing at constant bait and switch, with Inno promising a new version only to delay every. single. time. If Inno were to only release updates at the same rate they do now and post nothing else, people would have both patience and respect. CoC1 was updated at an even slower pace, but people were okay with waiting, because Fen didn't post every week or two saying, "The update will be here any day now, I promise, guys".

Fuckin' this. Inno doesn't owe me shit, nor do I feel entitled to any updates... But when you break literally every release promise you've ever made for like over a year straight, you really can't be surprised or upset when people get annoyed either.

It's not even hard to avoid, either, it's a solo project not funded by a Patreon or anything - every release date and timeline is arbitrary and completely decided by Inno herself. Just shut the fuck up until you have something to release, or at least only tease features that are already finished and don't give a concrete date.

 

[tehlemon]

Nobody is laughing at the speed of development, they're laughing at constant bait and switch, with Inno promising a new version only to delay every. single. time. If Inno were to only release updates at the same rate they do now and post nothing else, people would have both patience and respect. CoC1 was updated at an even slower pace, but people were okay with waiting, because Fen didn't post every week or two saying, "The update will be here any day now, I promise, guys".

I mean, I'm laughing at the speed of development.

I'm a programmer who's done plenty of writing for these kinds of games in the past. The amount of time needed for Inno to add basic content is hilariously slow. Nyan's rework, for example, should not have taken months for what we got.

That said, I can laugh at whatever I want regardless of what happened in the past or what's happening for other project. And it's not an entitlement issue like so many claim. I can laugh at companies and people even when I'm not at all invested in their products. I laugh at EA all the time and I don't play any of their games. I got a kick out of CDPR curb stomping their customer goodwill, and I didn't play CP2077.

I also laugh at stuff I'm invested in all the time as well.

It's really easy to laugh at shit. People always read way too much into it.

The honest answer is that I'm really just super bored, and this is entertaining.

 

[throbzombie]

Every release is like "Hello lovelies, I fixed an asston of bugs, so here's a shitload more to replace them. See y'all when I feel like it." I bet 0.4 won't even be playable when if it gets released.

 

[Taak]

Where's the update Lebowski? Where's the fucking update, shithead?

 

[Rainbowhead]

I mean, I'm laughing at the speed of development.

I'm a programmer who's done plenty of writing for these kinds of games in the past. The amount of time needed for Inno to add basic content is hilariously slow. Nyan's rework, for example, should not have taken months for what we got.

That is true. I haven't looked at the code, but based on what was promised, 90% of code should already be there. But again, Inno is free to work on the game at their own pace, it's the ridiculously regular promises that nobody asks for that are ruining it for them.

 

[FireSauner0]

I mean, I'm laughing at the speed of development.

I'm a programmer who's done plenty of writing for these kinds of games in the past. The amount of time needed for Inno to add basic content is hilariously slow. Nyan's rework, for example, should not have taken months for what we got.

That said, I can laugh at whatever I want regardless of what happened in the past or what's happening for other project. And it's not an entitlement issue like so many claim. I can laugh at companies and people even when I'm not at all invested in their products. I laugh at EA all the time and I don't play any of their games. I got a kick out of CDPR curb stomping their customer goodwill, and I didn't play CP2077.

I also laugh at stuff I'm invested in all the time as well.

It's really easy to laugh at shit. People always read way too much into it.

The honest answer is that I'm really just super bored, and this is entertaining.

When it comes to cp77, I'm more sad than anything. Not for the gaming experience i missed, i can get that elsewhere, plus it wasn't all bad.

I'm sad for the devs who worked years under shit management. I'm convinced that half the bugs exist because they were rushed. You said you were a programmer, so you must know how much work putting together a game of that scope is. After all, literally evetything you see on your screen and a lot more you don't had to be coded.

Imagining all the shit devs get for all the work they put in is just depressing. When in reality, for every bug there is, 1000 things exist that work fine.

And now they got hacked, which cant be a good thing to discover in the morning when you go in to work.

Sorry for the little off topic rant.

Interestingly, inno's game suffers from management issues also, but instead of overworking and rushing content, it feels like the opposite. I'm not even sure what she is doing at this point.

 

[Sarkath]

That is true. I haven't looked at the code, but based on what was promised, 90% of code should already be there.

Let's be honest, in the case of Lilith's Throne it's likely that your 90% figure is more like 900%, and I'll bet that's where most of the problem lies.

I did a quick wc -l (line count) on the Java source and it came back with 545,302 lines. While this isn't all code (it includes comments…I don't have cloc installed on my Windows box) some files aren't being used anymore (why not remove them?), and line count is a pretty shoddy metric for many things, I feel like it's a pretty valid metric in this case in that it shows how far this thing spun out of control.

Just the source file to handle orifaces in sex scenes is 2425 lines, with hard coded cases to handle every body part that can take some sort of vaguely phallic-shaped object (as well as every dong-shaped desirable) in a tree of if/else and switch statements to select exactly text to return for each pace (with variants for doms and subs). There's plenty of ways to deal with something like this, and that ain't a very good one. That, coupled with widespread abuse of Java enums, makes for a pretty entertaining read.

 

[tehlemon]

When it comes to cp77, I'm more sad than anything. Not for the gaming experience i missed, i can get that elsewhere, plus it wasn't all bad.

I'm sad for the devs who worked years under shit management. I'm convinced that half the bugs exist because they were rushed. You said you were a programmer, so you must know how much work putting together a game of that scope is. After all, literally evetything you see on your screen and a lot more you don't had to be coded.

Imagining all the shit devs get for all the work they put in is just depressing. When in reality, for every bug there is, 1000 things exist that work fine.

And now they got hacked, which cant be a good thing to discover in the morning when you go in to work.

Sorry for the little off topic rant.

Interestingly, inno's game suffers from management issues also, but instead of overworking and rushing content, it feels like the opposite. I'm not even sure what she is doing at this point.

Nah, I get it. I've definitely worked for shit companies before, so I can feel for them. I also spent 8 or 9 years doing outsourced, contract based IT support for a huge variety jobs/industries. I'm well versed in shitty companies lol

But it is an impressive case of a company destroying their goodwill in a fucking hurry. They'll likely never fully recover to where they were a few years ago.

Let's be honest, in the case of Lilith's Throne it's likely that your 90% figure is more like 900%, and I'll bet that's where most of the problem lies.

I did a quick wc -l (line count) on the Java source and it came back with 545,302 lines. While this isn't all code (it includes comments…I don't have cloc installed on my Windows box) some files aren't being used anymore (why not remove them?), and line count is a pretty shoddy metric for many things, I feel like it's a pretty valid metric in this case in that it shows how far this thing spun out of control.

Just the source file to handle orifaces in sex scenes is 2425 lines, with hard coded cases to handle every body part that can take some sort of vaguely phallic-shaped object (as well as every dong-shaped desirable) in a tree of if/else and switch statements to select exactly text to return for each pace (with variants for doms and subs). There's plenty of ways to deal with something like this, and that ain't a very good one. That, coupled with widespread abuse of Java enums, makes for a pretty entertaining read.

So a few things worth noting about the code base and line counts

First, what I'll call 'story content', AKA anything you see in the main game frame, is littered randomly throughout the code. SOME of the dialog is in the txt folder, and then some is in the character classes, and then some is in the quest's information, and then some...

You get my point. The game wasn't designed with the game's content and the game's code properly separated. Which really inflates the line/word count.

And then you get really weird stuff. Quest content is just wacky. Like, the quest logic will be in one place. In a completely different place will have the quest info like the description you see in the quest log. In a completely different place you have the quest dialog. In a completely different place you'll have all the other odds and ends you need to have the quest work.

This is probably why it takes ages to rework something like Nyan's content. The game design sucks, so you can't just *add* content.

Second, the comments. Holy fuck the comments.

There's some files that are like, 50% comments. Most of them *look* like old versions of the files. But most of these sections have no comments explaining WTF they're for. And then other files are commented in such a way that I swear she copied a tutorial and renamed the variable names, then added a billion comments so she'd know what the code actually does.

The only files that are well commented are the ones that are written by other people.

All that said though, I'm actually really impressed with some of the code. There are parts where I seriously wonder if the same person made them. One of the main reasons I'm looking at all this is that I want to avoid doing anything that'll get me accused of copying LT or Inno directly if I ever release my own project. And there's methodology that I might end up copying because it's exactly what I wanted to do anyways.

 

[Sarkath]

So a few things worth noting about the code base and line counts

First, what I'll call 'story content', AKA anything you see in the main game frame, is littered randomly throughout the code. SOME of the dialog is in the txt folder, and then some is in the character classes, and then some is in the quest's information, and then some...

You get my point. The game wasn't designed with the game's content and the game's code properly separated. Which really inflates the line/word count.

Oh yeah, I'm fully aware. I'm a professional dev and do some FOSS stuff on the side, so I'm well aware of the KLOC myth.

I probably didn't state my point clearly enough, but what I was getting at is that LT's high KLOC is enough to give anyone with any experience a sneaking suspicion of its poor data/code separation and copious amounts of duplication, and looking through the source only confirms those suspicions.

All that said though, I'm actually really impressed with some of the code. There are parts where I seriously wonder if the same person made them.

I suspect that she's fully aware of her earlier failings and that she's trying to refactor them away. I haven't taken a close look into how she's actually accomplished it so I'm not going to speculate on the quality of the work, but stuff like the race refactor are definitely a positive step forward.

Of course, it sucks that she didn't come to this realization before getting a ton of popularity.

On the other end of the bad code spectrum, for a perfect example of how outlandish source code can lead to a successful product with enough sheer force of will, check out

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if you haven't already. Holy moly.

 

[Marlin Brandy]

Where's the update Lebovski? Where's the fucking update, shithead?

Spoiler: In other news, she seems to have added a background based on her life.

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[Carl0sDanger]

... it's a solo project not funded by a Patreon or anything ...

It's funded on

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. One thing to note is that Inno characterised support of $2,500 per month - which she has long since exceeded - as, "Financial security, allowing me to treat development of Lilith's Throne as a full-time job."

So if you see people holding her to a higher standard than, "Oh, hai guyz. Just making this game for funsies." that's why.

Meeting deadlines (particularly self-imposed ones), sticking to the development roadmap (ie. not halting development of the main quest in order to work on fanservice side content) and actually getting work done is just the baseline of the standard that she herself set.

 

[KoropeiniKi]

this game is going to get abandoned. how? i have future foresight

but to honest, i feel like this game IS going to get abandoned, i can feel it.

 

[PlecoBeco]

this game is going to get abandoned. how? i have future foresight

but to honest, i feel like this game IS going to get abandoned, i can feel it.

On the plus side, it's open source, so if it gets abandoned there's always a chance someone sees that as an opportunity to pick it up themselves

 

[throbzombie]

Spoiler: In other news, she seems to have added a background based on her life.

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Is that really going in the game? Just look at those ridiculous buffs, not that they're needed since this game has the balance of a one-legged Parkinson's patient.