Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[throbzombie]

-snip-

I think that in a world like that, it would be treated like clothing, with subcultures built up around a particular combination of features.

 

[Kallumin]

Actually, that reminds me of something that really bothers me about the setting. I apologize if someone already brought this up, but in Lilith's realm, humans are discriminated against for some reason (ludonarrative dissonance occurs when human Enforcers show up, but that's a whole other tangent), but you can just enchant your boxed lunch and become another race entirely, down to the genetic level. So why haven't all the humans just done that, instead of (supposedly) suffering terrible discrimination at the hands of Lilith's racist regime?

The lore mentions that most humans actually did change into other races, for exactly the reason you mention. And that just a minority held on to their humanity for one reason or another.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Actually, that reminds me of something that really bothers me about the setting. I apologize if someone already brought this up, but in Lilith's realm, humans are discriminated against for some reason (ludonarrative dissonance occurs when human Enforcers show up, but that's a whole other tangent), but you can just enchant your boxed lunch and become another race entirely, down to the genetic level. So why haven't all the humans just done that, instead of (supposedly) suffering terrible discrimination at the hands of Lilith's racist regime?

Human enforcers aren't dissonance, they're straight up bugs if they should happen to appear in current versions.

On the broader topic, keep in mind that while the exact relation between transformation prices and median incomes are unknown, our Awesome Protagonist Powers and the circles we move in almost certainly skew our perspective on how trivial they are.

 

[tehlemon]

Ninja edit: I BROKE MY POST!!! AHHHHH
Ninja edit 8: I think I fixed it... too many quotes...

I'm going to put my reply in a quote, because it's long as fuck. Expand out the quote by me, and you'll see my way-too-long of an answer
...
I give this post 75% odds of getting deleted by the mods...

While I get the sentiment of what your saying, in the spirit of philosophical conversation, I think your argument only works if your world is a Utopia. It falls apart completely once you realize that just because people can change, doesn't mean they want to change. Thus the only thing that really holds water is the fact that trans will no longer be a thing (assuming that changing one's gender is a cheap/easy/free process).

Absolutely true. The world I'm working with is weird. In some ways, absolutely bordering on a utopia. In others, its completely fucked by essentially an ongoing disaster that I won't get into. Involves a super liberal (in terms of scope) magic system that's used constantly, but with some added catches and weirdness for fun and gameplay, but that's not really relevant beyond saying "magic!" as an explanation for the question of how.

And yeah, outside specific communities were changing ones appearance has been super normalized, not everyone will want to change. Less will change drastically. But pretty much everyone will use that magic on some level, even if it's just super cosmetic stuff. No need to dye your hair. Acne could become a non-issue. Tattoos become an interesting; they're no longer permanent, and they're easy to apply. But you'll still probably need and artist if you want to get a really cool, intricate design. Because lets be honest, most designs people come up with themselves suck or don't look good lol

Going to a fancy dinner and want to style your hair in a certain way? Maybe you'll change it so it's not as curly to make it easier. You can always change it back when you're done. Maybe someone will change their eye color to match their outfit. Make up becomes a weird concept, and I frankly don't know what to do with it. Would nail polish still be a thing? Or lipstick?

Probably. But in some circles, probably not.

However sexual orientations will definitely still exist. I mean, think about it. Even if everyone could change whatever they want about their appearance/biology they may still be attracted to a specific type of biology. That person will basically just always seek out individuals who have that biology they are attracted to. And like I said before just because you can change to whatever you want doesn't mean you want to. For example, if someone in your world is attracted to the male sex, but the person they find attractive has female parts and prefers those parts, why would they want to change for that other person?

Yeah, I'm going to be honest, I kinda over simplified my thoughts a lot because my post was already like, a page long lol

This is stuff you can dig deeper and deeper into forever. And so now I'm going to write like, a fucking novel on just this snip-it, realize how much I've written, and then half answering the rest!

For the setting I'm working on (simplifying *a lot* here, because we're not including narrative which is important to this topic), changing one's appearance and gender is basically a non-issue. It takes a little planning and prep, but not enough to be overly inconvenient. Like, think on the level of getting a condom. You'll have to have thought about it ahead of time, but it's not at all hard to do. And like, people have them around because sex is fun, and because people would absolutely take advantage of this type of thing, people would absolutely prepare for it the same way people already prepare for sex.

And lets be honest, with a power like that, as common as that, people are going to be using it for fun. And they'll likely be using it a lot. Which kinda bleeds into the second part of what you were saying.

The whole "people seek out individuals that have the biology they are attracted to" thing is true. It would still be true. And it'd almost have more personal context built into it. If you're into something specific, and you find someone who's *chosen* to be that specific thing, odds are you've got some shared tastes. I'll loop back around to this. But like, in real life not everyone gets into a relationship that perfectly matches their exact "type." Having a type doesn't mean you won't look outside that type. Because, just like in the real world, a personal connection can be more important. Doubly so when factoring in the next part...

Now if two people hit it off, they can choose to be each other's type. Maybe it's only sometimes, maybe its all the times, maybe what you want during sex is not the same as what you want day to day. Hell, even moment to moment. And to what extent this all goes can vary things heavily. Maybe you're having a shit day, and you like turning yourself into a cat and take a nap in the sun. Fuck it, why not. It doesn't have to all be sex. And I'm working with a really liberal magic system here, that's perfectly within possibility.

And all of this factors into every part of normal life. That's both awesome and kind of horrible. Like, you're absolutely going to see people in a relationship changing themselves to be what their partner wants. Because like, that's totally a real thing that already happens, you can just take it way further in this fictional world. But it'll also definitely cause problems too. Because not everyone is going to want to do that. What happens if two people hit it off, and one of the partners wants the other to change to be more like what they want, but what they want doesn't line up.

But to answer the question, people already work to be the person their partner wants them to be. Why would it be any different if we could be more flexible with it. And the people who wouldn't want to change just wouldn't be with people who would want them to. And some people will find compromises. A lot of this stuff becomes more of a scale rather than a binary decision.

And then even beyond that, moment to moment stuff, some people would *absolutely* be using this for temporary changes while fooling around. If you told me most couples wouldn't want to experiment a bit for fun, I'd call you a liar. People would absolutely be doing things like swapping bodies for a bit of fun. Or even outside of a relationship, what's to stop two friends who don't have the normal hangups from taking turns turning into the other person's dream crush. Absolutely nothing, as long as the people in question are the type to be cool with fooling around like that.

Racism will also still exist, because basically as long as something is different it can be demeaned. "Prey-only", "Blue Fur only", "Predators not allowed", etc. Sound familiar? Yes you can change to a prey animal type or transform your fur to blue, but do you want to? And even if we assume their are systems in place to prevent business/etc from doing that, you'll still have private entities and individual biases. "I don't like felines.", "If you enter my home you must be a flamingo." etc.

The thing is, even if we all looked the exact same, other things would change to discriminate. "Oh your from that part of town."

Even identity politics would still be a thing. "I'm a feline so I do this...", "I'm a dragon so I act this way...". "I prefer being an eagle because it allows me to be myself..." etc.

Okay, absolutely true. What I should have said instead of racism wouldn't exist, is racism *as we have it now* likely wouldn't exist. Within the setting, there would absolutely be communities and groups that have very specific requirements. And there would absolutely be people who'll be judgemental based on what a person wants to be. But also like, not everyone is going to know everyone.

Again, I'm working with really loose rules here. If there was a part of town that was super biased towards a certain form, basically everyone would be able to adopt that form if they needed to enter that part of town. If no one knows you, and you fit into whatever they think the ideal is, you'll still be treated as an outside or stranger, but they can't use that ideal against you. But at the same time, being an outsider, would they believe that you are what you appear to be? Or would they know that you took that form to fit in, just like I suggested. And then we're in a "I know you know that I know that you know that I know" type of nonsense situation. So it'll mostly just be in-groups of people who know each other, and everyone else. Like gang control neighborhoods, where what you look like doesn't matter, whether you're in the gang is what matters. Then maybe instead of disguising yourself as the ideal, maybe you'll try and find what will get you noticed the least. Don't want to be someone who appears to be worth challenging, but also not someone they're attracted to, or someone they'd hate. Gets fucky fast, and I love fucky.

Personal preferences will also definitely exist. You don't have to like felines, but if you're a massive asshole about it, you better be in a community that agrees with you. Those would obviously pop up, and there'd probably be conflict between them and other communities. But if you're just that one dick who hates felines, you better be someone important, or you're just going to be that one massive asshole that no one likes lol

And I've definitely written in a couple groups that are super prejudice based on 'what you were born as.' This is fun because of how incredibly messy that type of belief gets when proving your linage is pretty much impossible.

Funnily, this is the only part LT actually touches on, but only briefly and without going anywhere with it. They make a specific note that humans are looked down on, and that most humans quickly find a way to stop being human.

Unironically people may be even more likely to adhere to identity politics in your world in an effort to be unique, since the norm would be changing at a whim.

Shit, I actually like that. That's a good point. There's actually a lot of ways you could take that which would make for some great world building.

Again your situation will only work in a perfect world where everyone doesn't mind changing to be whatever they want.

Most people are cool with changing to be whatever they'd like to be.

There would definitely be some who are not. And they'd like be insufferable because of it lol

Back to that linage thing. There's definitely going to be people who think they're better than other because they haven't changed themselves. A lot of stories/games/ext have already gone down this path, but it gets pretty fucked up quick. That puts you in Dues Ex territory quick.

I've gotta stop editing more stuff in now...

Actually, that reminds me of something that really bothers me about the setting. I apologize if someone already brought this up, but in Lilith's realm, humans are discriminated against for some reason (ludonarrative dissonance occurs when human Enforcers show up, but that's a whole other tangent), but you can just enchant your boxed lunch and become another race entirely, down to the genetic level. So why haven't all the humans just done that, instead of (supposedly) suffering terrible discrimination at the hands of Lilith's racist regime?

That's because LT's writing, is disjointed and not thought out at all.

A lot of the initial world building was great, but then completely ignored or not acknowledged. Like the fact that everyone is supposed to be super biased against humans.

It actually says that most humans choose to stop being human because of it in some of the early writing. But nothing was done beyond that to even acknowledge any of this.

I think that in a world like that, it would be treated like clothing, with subcultures built up around a particular combination of features.

Yeah, in communities and places where changing your form is normalized, it probably would be more like clothing than anything else. And I absolutely imagine places like that where the forms people take follow fads and fashion. Hell, you'd probably see form combined with fashion in a lot of ways. It'd be interesting.

I really love the idea of it all. And the best part, this is all stuff that can be shown, and not always directly told in a narrative game. So it's super fun.


Edit again:
I just thought of a fun scenario for a world like this. Imagine a party where everyone invited is given the name of random person who's going to be attending. And then everyone shows up not as themselves, but as the name they were given. And then your goal is to figure out who everyone is actually is, while trying not to give away who you are. That's absolutely something my friends and I would do, and it would be fun as hell lol

 

[Slaanesh Champion]

Actually, that reminds me of something that really bothers me about the setting. I apologize if someone already brought this up, but in Lilith's realm, humans are discriminated against for some reason (ludonarrative dissonance occurs when human Enforcers show up, but that's a whole other tangent), but you can just enchant your boxed lunch and become another race entirely, down to the genetic level. So why haven't all the humans just done that, instead of (supposedly) suffering terrible discrimination at the hands of Lilith's racist regime?

Major spoiler:

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Most of it you can learn if you pursue the main plot.

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[Carl0sDanger]

Most of it you can learn if you pursue the main plot.

True, but I think what people are talking about is the lack of impact this information has on the emerging story. It's one of the reasons I don't think the Enforcer encounters were a complete waste of time: they actually show differing attitudes depending on what race the MC presents as.

Aside from that, there's not much impact apart from the occasional mention. There's options that come up if you're a slime when you enter the Slime Queen's tower and if you somehow become a full Awoo-girl before meeting Brax, but everything else is mentions in passing, at best. In particular, most NPCs have little to no reaction to even the most profound transformations to the MC.

Personally, I'd prefer fewer transformation options if it meant those options had a more significant effect on the story.

 

[throbzombie]

The whole thing with demons and other races started in the prologue, and unfolded into what we see in the game in a span of a few years. Player was transported not into parallel world but into the near future. The only area under direct control of Lilith is London, rather what's become of it, and it's surrounding areas. Demons infiltrated most countries governments and trying really hard to convinve the rest of the world that all is fine and dandy in UK. Also this feature that kids grow super fast is explained as Liliths effort to create overpopulation and force corrupted morphs and demons leave UK and spread around the world, corrupting it in the process.

Yeah, I know how it all goes, but wasn't it explained that the spell also kind of changed the past so that Lilith's realm always existed within its little pocket of the universe? That way there could be half-demons like Lilaya born decades before the start of the game.

So, yeah, the humans are still the most numerous race of the world. All the morphs and demons are just power tripping minority, condensed in one place.

Yeah again, as I understand it, Lilith's realm exists in its own little pocket cut off from the rest of Earth, like a magical North Korea, so the makeup of the outside world's population isn't really relevant.

Human enforcers aren't dissonance, they're straight up bugs if they should happen to appear in current versions.

On the broader topic, keep in mind that while the exact relation between transformation prices and median incomes are unknown, our Awesome Protagonist Powers and the circles we move in almost certainly skew our perspective on how trivial they are.

That is an unsatisfactory explanation. People will go to any lengths to escape oppression; the relatively small economic barriers wouldn't stop them if they were really that hard up.

 

[ebonheart2319]

Major spoiler:

Spoiler: Spoiler for Current Plot Ending

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[Slaanesh Champion]

True, but I think what people are talking about is the lack of impact this information has on the emerging story. It's one of the reasons I don't think the Enforcer encounters were a complete waste of time: they actually show differing attitudes depending on what race the MC presents as.

Aside from that, there's not much impact apart from the occasional mention. There's options that come up if you're a slime when you enter the Slime Queen's tower and if you somehow become a full Awoo-girl before meeting Brax, but everything else is mentions in passing, at best. In particular, most NPCs have little to no reaction to even the most profound transformations to the MC.

Personally, I'd prefer fewer transformation options if it meant those options had a more significant effect on the story.

For this, I believe, responsible Inno's discord server and her habit of doing fucking nothing meaningfull with the game. She completely forgot about main plot and all she doing is adding more and more random stuff for about 2 years now.

 

[Slaanesh Champion]

Yeah, I know how it all goes, but wasn't it explained that the spell also kind of changed the past so that Lilith's realm always existed within its little pocket of the universe? That way there could be half-demons like Lilaya born decades before the start of the game.

Yeah again, as I understand it, Lilith's realm exists in its own little pocket cut off from the rest of Earth, like a magical North Korea, so the makeup of the outside world's population isn't really relevant.

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[throbzombie]

It's not a magical realm. The events of the game literally occur in what London has become, it's just isolated from outside world.

That's what I just said.

The events of the game literally occur in what London has become, it's just isolated from outside world. The pocked dimension was a prison in which Lilith and her spawn were confined until, in the prologue of the game, they were released.

I know. That still doesn't address the time manipulation shenanigans that went on for people like Lilaya, who was born a half-demon well before the events of the game, to exist. Lilith's realm obviously occupies its own private timeline as well.

 

[Slaanesh Champion]

For fuck's sake, I KNOW THIS. I said it's cut off from the world *like* a magical North Korea, not that it was its own world. And that still doesn't address the time manipulation shenanigans that went on for people like Lilaya, who was born a half-demon well before the events of the game, to exist. Lilith's realm obviously occupies its own private timeline as well.

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[throbzombie]

Nope, Lilaya were turned into a half demon by Lyssieth. And no, there aren't any different timelines.

No, Lilaya was born as a half-demon some few decades before the beginning of the game. Lyssieth used Lily's soul to make her, but she was born sometime in the 20th century, at the age of 18 like anyone else in Lilith's realm.

I'm also fairly certain that she and Meraxis both recall always having been half-demons born of Lyssieth, but I'm not 100% on that.

 

[Slaanesh Champion]

To fullfill my captain obvious role:
Lilith just mindfucked everyone she could reach and made them think that everything was as it is now.

 

[Slaanesh Champion]

No, Lilaya was born as a half-demon some few decades before the beginning of the game. Lyssieth used Lily's soul to make her, but she was born sometime in the 20th century, at the age of 18 like anyone else in Lilith's realm.

I'm also fairly certain that she and Meraxis both recall always having been half-demons born of Lyssieth, but I'm not 100% on that.

Wait a bit, I'll go reread the main plot right now.

 

[throbzombie]

In any case, for all intents and purposes, Lilith's realm has always existed, and as far as the humans with are concerned, they have only known oppression their entire lives.
---I'll be AFK for a couple hours, going out to eat.

 

[anubis1970]

Does anyone know if anyone is working on any Australian based morphs, i.e. koala, platypus, etc.? I tried looking on the discord but there's a lot of chatter to wade through even on the mod discussion channel.

 

[ebonheart2319]

Wait a bit, I'll go reread the main plot right now.

Spoiler: Main Plot in a Nutshell

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[anubis1970]

Spoiler: Main Plot in a Nutshell

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A succinct summation, but one minor thing; Arthur is still a human. Only Lily and Meraxis were changed into half-demons.

 

[Slaanesh Champion]

Spoiler: Main Plot in a Nutshell

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I have nothing to add or argue about.