Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[tehlemon]

Well, that's not entirely out of the question. I was able to cut the save time in half with a

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.

I also have

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that defers status updates. I'm not entirely happy with that specific implementation, but it was a

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proof of concept at least. It doesn't help with LT's rampant memory consumption. That's a completely separate can of worms.

I need to get back to that at some point. The two biggest problems I have is that I have a lot of other projects I've been working on, and every time I go back to Java 8 I find myself missing modern C++/C#.

I think the memory abuse needs to be addressed before anything else will have a meaningful impact. And like, before too much longer. It only compounds upon itself with each content update. But fuck that'd be a lot of work. I still don't know how you'd do it without some major redesigns. Exporting racial data to XML took three and a half months. Fixing this could take a year.

And you have the constant debate of content vs system reworks. If Inno was treating this like a full time job it might have a chance, but with her taking multiple months off along side barely getting content out when she is working, there's no chance that both goals are going to be possible. And if you don't have content, you lose the audience. But adding more content is bound to hit an upper limit to what the game engine can handle.

My last play through where I actually let myself engage with the sim side of things was using 3gb of memory within like 20 in-game days. It honestly breaks my brain that a text game with minimal assets is using that kind of memory. Like, in one of my prototypes I can load 1000 NPCs with similar functional levels of customization, spread across a 1000x1000 square map, and I'm not touching that kind of memory. And even with each of them having their own goals and proper pathfinding you can still move around without the kind of delays I was getting on that last LT play through. How the fuck is LT performing this badly on modern hardware.

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

How the fuck is LT performing this badly on modern hardware.

The most likely answer is that this game outgrew its initial scope years ago. When it first started, little errors due to poor coding decisions and those ideal for a smaller scope of game had little to no impact on performance. Fast forward to now... and we have a Java based porn game that looks like CoC but somehow is as resource intensive as Crysis.

A complete system overhaul was due long before we got the errors we are seeing to day, and I'd be welling to bet money that many of the issues plaguing Inno are a direct result of her trying to fit her additions to the next update without breaking EVERYTHING. I can hardly call myself a programmer since I really haven't done jack shit in that area for a long while, but what we are seeing now reeks of a downward spiral where longstanding problems with the foundation of the code is creating problems with adding new features, which in turns adds even more problems that need to be fit into the sprawling mess, creating even more problems, etc, etc.

I hate to say it, but as necessary as it is, the odds of Inno buckling down and fixing the foundations her entire game is built on are nonexistent. The game damn well could use a complete system overhaul, but doing so would require a complete rework of several major features implemented in batches, each of which would take an immense amount of time with little in the way of *new* content to show. So yeah... between all flash and no substance or all substance and no flash, I think we all know what kind of work Inno has in mind for the immediate future.

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

I think we all know what kind of work Inno has in mind for the immediate future.

Work?
By the looks of things she has only vacations in mind.

 

[Sarkath]

My last play through where I actually let myself engage with the sim side of things was using 3gb of memory within like 20 in-game days.

In all fairness, a lot of that seems more likely to be tied into the way the JRE handles memory allocations. I don't have a huge amount of experience with it, but from what I've seen over the years it seems to have more of a tendency to exhaust its heap before garbage collecting, whereas .NET's GC fires off more often and keeps the process's memory allocation more stable. This makes sense, as the JRE is all about limiting the heap size to a particular block on startup, while the only limit to the CLR's available heap size is the maximum process size (2GB on x86, effectively unlimited on x64).

I use a number of Java-based tools (I use the JetBrains IDEs extensively, used to use dbeaver/SoapUI, and had the "pleasure" of administering self-contained JIRA and Bitbucket Server instances), as well as play unhealthy amounts of Minecraft when the mood strikes, and they all seem to follow the trend of allocating as much memory as they can before doing something about it.

That's not to say that LT is perfect at managing memory, because it definitely isn't. LT slings around temporary collections like they're going out of style, so it's no wonder it fills up the heap quickly. I suspect that the performance improvements for most systems are more likely to involve simply allowing the JRE to call the GC less often. If LT were truly filling the heap and running the JRE out of memory, the application would be unceremoniously killed with an OutOfMemoryError exception. I haven't run into that even during my most brutal stress testing.

At some point I'd like to do some more in-depth heap analysis to see what's really going on. I'm currently stuck without my Linux dev box, and that might be a fun first project for its replacement.

Edit: It's worth reiterating that this is purely anecdotal, and that I have far more practical/technical experience with .NET. I did try to look up some information, but the history of Java's garbage collector is a bit muddied by the fact that different JREs can have different GC strategies, and that LT is still using Java 8 (no thanks to Oracle still recommending it for general use).

 

[IvoryOwl]

This isn't up for debate, Inno WILL have to overhaul the entire backbone of her game if she wishes to add just 1/3 of the content she planned originally. Cutting content under the pretense it will make things more manageable isn't going to fix anything long-term if she's just going to get side-tracked anyway and add even more bloat afterwards. Planning ahead and taking preemptive measures is key in projects like these.

Free-form in the sense you do whatever, whenever, doesn't really work here. We may be critical but in truth Inno doesn't really have anyone keeping her in check, demanding results, and making sure the project actually moves forward in a healthy way. Her Patreons are far too forgiving and lenient with the way things are going, thus perpetuating her vices and malpractices. The difference is in the mentality; a donor vs an investor. The latter expects something in return for their money and will keep tabs on progress and results, as well as chime in with criticism if needed. Donors believe they shouldn't be critical or demanding because they are acting purely on good-will and expect little to nothing in return.

She's stuck between a rock and a hard place; she doesn't have the will/courage to overhaul the entire game so she just trims the fat along the way and hopes it will be enough to keep the project going. It will be a soul-draining up-hill battle until she either collapses of exhaustion and quits, or decides to do what needs to be done to save the game long-term (and her sanity).

 

[zooop50]

guys ı have question what is the test ı dont understand. my main quest is test in the lab the first quest. ı dont know what is that ım doing but dont know what it is goin to effect in my game after playing

 

[SheepPun]

snip

Agreed, not only is the game broken on the programming level, it's 'broken' on the game design level too. Inno needs to sit down and thoroughly plan out core mechanics, structure, etc and part of that planning process is knowing what you can safely leave out for the time being and then go about rebuilding the programming.



I've said it before and I'll say it again; personally I'm quite sympathetic to creators dreaming big and getting in over their heads. Imagining the final product can easily blind anyone leading a project. It's easy to ride off the high of getting praise and excitement for something you're making. And it can be very scary and upsetting to 'let down' those same people, especially when they can be emotionally volatile (or come off as such in your head.) I've done the same shit, I know very little creators/project leads who haven't slip up at least a little in this way at least once.

That said, imho, Inno has dug herself quite the hole. Do I want her to fail? No. Would I like LT to succeed? Sure.
But there's a point where I can't muster sympathy towards someone who refuses help, no matter how understandable their reasoning is for refusing it.

tldr personally I see Inno as another case of Hanlon's razor and I'm honestly just here to see how this all plays out

 

[Zelva]

Nothing I love more than coming back every once in a while and peeking in to Lilith's Throne threads and basking in the chaos Inno leaves in their wake. I still fondly remember a period back in 2018 or so where they disappeared from basically the end of August to the end of October, which made the Blog a joy to go through at the time... it is a real shame though as this game is honestly (in concept at least) an equal or better of CoC in a lot of ways... the customization you can do to your character in particular is really really nice! Some of the NPC's as well (Meraxis and Nyan for me) are really enjoyable to interact with (though I've read the date Inno added for Nyan is, uh, pretty bad to say the least), I suppose I dodged a bullet though, as if Inno hadn't gone AWOL I would have started donating to the Patreon. Lucky break that

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

This isn't up for debate, Inno WILL have to overhaul the entire backbone of her game if she wishes to add just 1/3 of the content she planned originally. Cutting content under the pretense it will make things more manageable isn't going to fix anything long-term if she's just going to get side-tracked anyway and add even more bloat afterwards. Planning ahead and taking preemptive measures is key in projects like these.

You seem to forget that failure is always an option. I don't want to say that a life saving fix won't happen... but when Inno seems to favor muddling through a hellacious mess of code to make a couple of micro-updates every month instead of bucking down and fixing shit that, I'm going to keep my expectations even with what Inno has displayed so far. I want to be optimistic about Lilith's Throne, I really do, but I refuse to give into blind optimism or deny the track record the developer has had for the past few years.

 

[Carl0sDanger]

guys ı have question what is the test ı dont understand. my main quest is test in the lab the first quest. ı dont know what is that ım doing but dont know what it is goin to effect in my game after playing

So save your game and try it out.

But if you want it spelled out for you ...

Spoiler

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[Sphere42]

But if you want it spelled out for you ...

IIRC the first test involves nudity and technobabble, then the option is replaced with one called 'Tests' (now WITH the quotes!) which goes deeper.

 

[Doctor.Professor]

So I just recently started this game and I am enjoying it very much so far. I just met some of my offspring and I am seeing a trend that I am wondering if it is normal or not. It seems all of my sons are sexually attracted to me and all of my daughters aren't. Is sexual attraction just a set thing or does it change over time?

Also, how do you get your offspring to stop being hooker and muggers? Don't get me wrong, I am proud of all my hooker sons and mugger daughters (just a coincidence?), I am just curious if it is possible.

 

[throbzombie]

It seems all of my sons are sexually attracted to me and all of my daughters aren't.

That's just a weird coincidence.

Is sexual attraction just a set thing or does it change over time?

They have to have the incest fetish and be attracted to your gender. You can give them the incest fetish by enchanting an item called Mystery Kink, but you need a quest item to change their gender preference.

Also, how do you get your offspring to stop being hooker and muggers?

Talk to Lilaya about putting people up in the mansion, and then invite them to stay with you.

 

[Cthuga]

So is this the latest version of the game? Where is the official link to the site you can download this at?

 

[throbzombie]

So is this the latest version of the game? Where is the official link to the site you can download this at?

The original link is on the SS page because it's subscribers-only. You'll have to get the latest version from the link in the OP.

 

[Saxxy]

She's missed her original release window by about 3 or 4 weeks now and she missed her deadline for another progress update that was supposed to come yesterday.
It's a bit of a joke at this point

 

[anubis1970]

She's missed her original release window by about 3 or 4 weeks now and she missed her deadline for another progress update that was supposed to come yesterday.
It's a bit of a joke at this point

It was a bit of a joke back in January, by now it's the whole freaking clown car.

 

[aspar4gus]

I'm convinced that she's actually already given up on the project and don't want to do it anymore hence she try to keep irritating her patrons/subs so that they'd leave the project, but it backfired and people keep paying her for doing nothing for some reasons.. and the cycle continues on and on

 

[tehlemon]

It was a bit of a joke back in January, by now it's the whole freaking clown car.

This is the same feeling I get when I hear people talking about what 4chan was like "back in the day." You know, like five years ago. Back in the day.

It started being a joke to me around Helena's rework lol

That was such a shitshow of missed deadlines, updates consisting of only place holders, not even having contributors to make it look like there's progress.... And that's assuming we got updates, it was somethings months. We used to laugh about getting to 1000+ comments on each blog post!

Because it just took that damn long for the next delay to be posted.

It's been a joke for a long, long time lol

I'm convinced that she's actually already given up on the project and don't want to do it anymore hence she try to keep irritating her patrons/subs so that they'd leave the project, but it backfired and people keep paying her for doing nothing for some reasons.. and the cycle continues on and on

Shit, I might actually respect that more.

 

[SheepPun]

It started being a joke to me around Helena's rework lol

... Which one is Helena again?

I actually think I don't remember any character by name besides Liyila (which I can't be bothered to look up the actual spelling of her name) and Nyan. I haven't done Nyan's content, I just remember it because it's an incredibly stupid name for a character and reading that her rework apparently made her worse somehow.