UncleFredo

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2020
1,940
3,670
So I'm not a lawyer but I have had to repeatedly deal with IP issues throughout my career and (sadly) the fees I've paid my lawyer have made his firm the number one IP experts in my state. He always thanks me for paying him to open an entirely unexpected revenue source... LOL

If you didn't sign any letter of agreement or contract about ownership of your work, you own it. Even if you did if no method of compensation was involved he'd be hard pressed to find a judge who'd restrict your use of your work. From what I've read here it seems that he owns the "imagery" and you own the story.

I unsolicited advice is this.
Take the advice of others about creating a less complex game as a learning experience. Use the knowledge you'll gain to assess the work require to complete LOI. Then if you're determined to complete the game, create your own imagery (which if you create it without using his actual images as your starting point can pretty much duplicate the look) and finish the story. Were I in your shoes I wouldn't worry about a long gap before I picked up this game. Far more important to become comfortable with all the non-literary skills that will be required. Only when you've learned the scope of the task before you can you determine how to proceed. Don't be surprised if you determine you need to pull in other talents.

This is a great game. I wish you every success.

Oh and save all communications like the exchange you shared. Lawyers will find them fascinating and are unlikely to ever let them come before a judge. LOL
 
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J0K3RXXX

Engaged Member
Dec 7, 2018
2,017
1,150
Okay, I've slept a little since last night and first things first, I feel like I should clear up a few things.
1. While Sznuk provided many reasons, upon pressing, the main reason of him leaving is that he simply cannot work on the game any longer.
2. He locked me out of Patreon the moment he told me that he was leaving yesterday, which gave me no way of clearing the air with the long-term patrons. Few of whom had given more than a hundred dollars to this game.
3. He believes since renders are all his and the concept, however rudimentary, was created by his friend, I have no "legal right" to the game. Keep in mind that this is despite me writing almost all of the Patreon posts, creating opportunities for cross-promo and, well, writing almost the entirety of the fucking game.
4. Despite me giving multiple ways to continue the game, he has made it clear that he simply doesn't want to see the game continued in any way shape or from. However, he is okay with me starting from scratch with different but similar characters.

Now in light of all this, there are three announcements I want to make.
1. I've decided that will continue creating the game on my own. That doesn't mean I want to see the abandoned tag removed just yet because as Sznuk is adamant about not giving his permission to continue creating the game, Rich is reluctant to join the team. That means I have to not only do the writing but also the coding and creating the renders. So simply put, I don't know the sheer amount of work that will actually be required in doing all of this. Especially since my experience with Daz is not only extremely amateurish but also the fact that I only have a 2060 mobile so it'll take me almost twice as long to create the same render.
2. I won't be continuing the NTR path of the game simply because I can't do it and not take like 2 more years to finish the game. The reason I've fought adamantly to continue NTR in the game was that I didn't want to disappoint the most loyal patrons but the most loyal patrons have already been disappointed the most. I might give it a semblance of an end AFTER I am done with the base game but it's not a certainty. From now on each update will probably take some four months. Especially since my understanding of Daz is extremely basic. I started learning about the software a few days earlier because I was going to make a small game named "School Dreams 4: An ode to Goblinboy" as a side project that I'd have released here for free but that idea is now on hold indefinitely. I've linked my first render to show you guys the level of my skill currently so you can expect how bad the renders will end up looking. Note that it utilizes very default models because I genuinely don't know what I am doing.
3. The game will be released here for free. With what has just happened I know I can't seriously expect for anyone to actually pay for the game. Money was never the first reason why I was creating the game. Of course, it was not a non-issue but just not the primary one. So I'll be creating this game for free from now on. I am guessing the biggest reason Sznuk didn't want to see the game continued was that he didn't want someone else to reap the benefits of his own hard work. This way that doesn't happen but the game doesn't get axed either.
So yeah tl; dr: The game's renders from now on will be shit, there will be no NTR but the game will trudge on at a very slow pace.
And it will be free as it has always been here, now just officially.
As much as I hate it, the game will continue WITHOUT Sznuk's approval.
It's a real shame. This game was having such great potential. I wished you good luck in your new projects.

PS: If you finally decide to reserve your new version of LOI for when you are more experienced to the software, and for this you need to create a short game to improve your experience in those software, but you don't have an idea for the plot of that hypothetical short game of yours, I offer you any of the ideas I exposed in a thread whose link is in my signature, if you're interested. I personally didn't think of them for short games, but any of those ideas could be adapted for a short game.
 
Nov 28, 2019
32
16
Yeah, now I am planning to try to give the game two distinct but well-done paths. Three paths it seems was too much to realistically continue. Even though I didn't see that until it was too late.
I did want to ask, what are the paths that you are planning on developing, and what's the one that's going to get canned? I assume it probably has something to do with the resist, submit or fight back choice that occurs, since it seems like the perfect choice to split off from. Personally I'd like to there to be a submission (submit) path and a domination (fight back) path where you are the one in control. For the sub and dom players, respectfully. The resist option makes the most sense to get canned, since it's the weird middle ground choice that doesn't really go far enough for the two types of players. Just my opinion, though.
 

caju

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2017
1,313
1,262
Well, that tag's a bit misleading. Not abandoned, per se. Just one of the devs left, and the game will resume development under a new head dev.
sihil
Okay so after the discussion on f95 I've come to conclusion that before continuing Lord of Imagination, it'd make more sense for me to create a smaller project. I've been meaning to create School Dreams 4 for a long time now, to those who don't know, school dreams series was created by Goblinboy who is probably my favorite dev of all time. He created many small games that I recommend you guys to check out. Anyway, yeah, I'll create a sequel as a sort of tribute to Goblinboy. The game will be free and I'll be releasing it on f95. I'm thinking to give this game no more than 2 months of development time so that the general timeline for LoI remains unchanged but no promises on that.
 
Nov 28, 2019
32
16
sihil
Okay so after the discussion on f95 I've come to conclusion that before continuing Lord of Imagination, it'd make more sense for me to create a smaller project. I've been meaning to create School Dreams 4 for a long time now, to those who don't know, school dreams series was created by Goblinboy who is probably my favorite dev of all time. He created many small games that I recommend you guys to check out. Anyway, yeah, I'll create a sequel as a sort of tribute to Goblinboy. The game will be free and I'll be releasing it on f95. I'm thinking to give this game no more than 2 months of development time so that the general timeline for LoI remains unchanged but no promises on that.
Well yeah, I don't think anyone's expecting him to get started on it again immediately. This situation caught us all off guard and he's gonna do another short game first to essentially train himself for LoI.
 

Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
Update:
After brainstorming a bit about the ideas for the shorter game, I've come to a decision.
The original idea I had for a shorter game way back in December was to just port Goblinboy's camp game (school dreams 1) to Ren'py but literally, anyone can really do it and I'd rather do that as a way to refresh myself once I finish LoI. So just now, I was wondering about creating School Dreams 4, a fan-made sequel to Goblinboy but I wanted to make at least a little money out of the game so it wouldn't make sense to build off of Goblinboy's work- who released all of his games for free.
So now, the ideas that I developed while brainstorming for SD 4 will be used to create a Lord of Imagination spin-off named Loose Ends (the title is tentative.) In it you will play as Hiroshi Urakiri, a Japanese exchange student in the US who has recently discovered that he has been showing some strange powers. He and Blake Maxwell, a quintessential college jock, try to figure out how their respective powers work. The only thing you both know is that the more sex you have, the more your powers grow.
The game is going to be similar to School Dreams, Pervert Action series, and Battle of the bulges on the surface. I am thinking it should take around 2-3 months to complete. It all depends on how well my rendering skills progress and how quickly I finish the script. The reason I am making this game is that there are a few ideas that I wanted to implement in LoI that I simply didn't get the chance to. Plus, I wanted to explore a few aspects of Darklight that I couldn't in LoI because MC is literally the chosen one.
Challenges: The game will be difficult to write, I can see that right away. The main ending I have in mind might end up being disappointing and it will be difficult to make the MC likable as he'll be just so bitter. And the subversion of a popular porn game trope I have in mind HAS to work for this game to work which, again, will be hard. It's easy to create an obvious, predictable story like LoI where most players can get a good idea of what to expect. There's a reason why game of thrones season 8 and the last Jedi are so widely hated pieces of media. They both try and in my humble opinion, fail to create a satisfyingly subversive piece of art.
TL;DR: A LoI spin-off named Loose Ends is on the way.
I checked out the Being a DIK fanart thread that has a list of assets used for the characters and Zoe (The MC's ex girlfriend) uses this asset which I think might be what is used for Olivia I could be wrong though since I haven't played this game since the non-NTR update and only went with the screenshots in the OP.
Yeah, this image looks particularly convincing:
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Well, I hope that's the last shitty situation you'll have to face while working on this game, because I honestly believe that the huge improvement in it's writing was the main reason it even got that far into developement. The initial release was just another game with above average renders and writing that was... let's just call it "immature", so that I don't offent anyone.

I think it would be best if you could find someone to help you out with the renders, so that you don't burn yourself out (there are a lot of people who are quite competent with DAZ, but can't write shit...), but I know that if you don't want to set up a Patreon, SubscribeStar or whatever, that would be difficult, so I'll just wish you luck in this new learning experience with DAZ!

In the end of the day, this might be a blesssing in disguise. Your former partner doesn't seem to be the most "cooperative" person, so now you'll at least have the freedom to do what you think best for the game.
Maybe I will start looking for an artist as well but honestly, the problem is that I simply can't pay one. Besides, I'd rather just make sure that I can carry on the game on my own first. So that were the new artist to leave for whatever reason it wouldn't be a huge problem.
So I'm not a lawyer but I have had to repeatedly deal with IP issues throughout my career and (sadly) the fees I've paid my lawyer have made his firm the number one IP experts in my state. He always thanks me for paying him to open an entirely unexpected revenue source... LOL

If you didn't sign any letter of agreement or contract about ownership of your work, you own it. Even if you did if no method of compensation was involved he'd be hard pressed to find a judge who'd restrict your use of your work. From what I've read here it seems that he owns the "imagery" and you own the story.

I unsolicited advice is this.
Take the advice of others about creating a less complex game as a learning experience. Use the knowledge you'll gain to assess the work require to complete LOI. Then if you're determined to complete the game, create your own imagery (which if you create it without using his actual images as your starting point can pretty much duplicate the look) and finish the story. Were I in your shoes I wouldn't worry about a long gap before I picked up this game. Far more important to become comfortable with all the non-literary skills that will be required. Only when you've learned the scope of the task before you can you determine how to proceed. Don't be surprised if you determine you need to pull in other talents.

This is a great game. I wish you every success.

Oh and save all communications like the exchange you shared. Lawyers will find them fascinating and are unlikely to ever let them come before a judge. LOL
Well, I doubt he'll actually try stopping me from continuing the game. Most likely, he'll delete the Patreon account, the subscribestar and discord and be done with it. It's that easy. Though I'd be curious to see if he close the Patreon before this month's payout cycle or not. Besides, even if he did have a case which he doesn't, he'd have a hard time into bullying me into doing anything at all just as I can't do anything about him kicking me out of the Patreon as I live half a globe away. The question has never really been about if HE CAN do something but how I CAN justify starting a Patreon without anything to show. Maybe I will plug my Patreon eventually but not before I have something finished to show.
It's a real shame. This game was having such great potential. I wished you good luck in your new projects.

PS: If you finally decide to reserve your new version of LOI for when you are more experienced to the software, and for this you need to create a short game to improve your experience in those software, but you don't have an idea for the plot of that hypothetical short game of yours, I offer you any of the ideas I exposed in a thread whose link is in my signature, if you're interested. I personally didn't think of them for short games, but any of those ideas could be adapted for a short game.
Although I am 95 percent sure of what I'm about to do with the game, I'll be sure to check the thread out.
I did want to ask, what are the paths that you are planning on developing, and what's the one that's going to get canned? I assume it probably has something to do with the resist, submit or fight back choice that occurs, since it seems like the perfect choice to split off from. Personally I'd like to there to be a submission (submit) path and a domination (fight back) path where you are the one in control. For the sub and dom players, respectfully. The resist option makes the most sense to get canned, since it's the weird middle ground choice that doesn't really go far enough for the two types of players. Just my opinion, though.
I'll be doing away with the NTR path for the reasons I explained earlier here somewhere.
 
Last edited:
Nov 28, 2019
32
16
Update:
After brainstorming a bit about the ideas for the shorter game, I've come to a decision.
The original idea I had for a shorter game way back in December was to just port Goblinboy's camp game (school dreams 1) to Ren'py but literally, anyone can really do it and I'd rather do that as a way to refresh myself once I finish LoI. So just now, I was wondering about creating School Dreams 4, a fan-made sequel to Goblinboy but I wanted to make at least a little money out of the game so it wouldn't make sense to build off of Goblinboy's work- who released all of his games for free.
So now, the ideas that I developed while brainstorming for SD 4 will be used to create a Lord of Imagination spin-off named Loose Ends (the title is tentative.) In it you will play as Hiroshi Urakiri, a Japanese exchange student in the US who has recently discovered that he has been showing some strange powers. He and Blake Maxwell, a quintessential college jock, try to figure out how their respective powers work. The only thing you both know is that the more sex you have, the more your powers grow.
The game is going to be similar to School Dreams, Pervert Action series, and Battle of the bulges on the surface. I am thinking it should take around 2-3 months to complete. It all depends on how well my rendering skills progress and how quickly I finish the script. The reason I am making this game is that there are a few ideas that I wanted to implement in LoI that I simply didn't get the chance to. Plus, I wanted to explore a few aspects of Darklight that I couldn't in LoI because MC is literally the chosen one.
Challenges: The game will be difficult to write, I can see that right away. The main ending I have in mind might end up being disappointing and it will be difficult to make the MC likable as he'll be just so bitter. And the subversion of a popular porn game trope I have in mind HAS to work for this game to work which, again, will be hard. It's easy to create an obvious, predictable story like LoI where most players can get a good idea of what to expect. There's a reason why game of thrones season 8 and the last Jedi are so widely hated pieces of media. They both try and in my humble opinion, fail to create a satisfyingly subversive piece of art.
TL;DR: A LoI spin-off named Loose Ends is on the way.
I thought the NTR was separate from the choice you mentioned, my bad. Oh, and it's probably the question with the most obvious answer in the world because it's set in the same universe as LoI, but still I gotta ask: Will it have mind control?
 

Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
I thought the NTR was separate from the choice you mentioned, my bad. Oh, and it's probably the question with the most obvious answer in the world because it's set in the same universe as LoI, but still I gotta ask: Will it have mind control?
Yes, though it won't be as OP as the mind control powers of LoI's MC. In fact, they'll be quite minimal, comparable to the MC's powers in Long live the princess.
 
Nov 28, 2019
32
16
Yes, though it won't be as OP as the mind control powers of LoI's MC. In fact, they'll be quite minimal, comparable to the MC's powers in Long live the princess.
Ah, damn. Not the biggest fan of LLTP's mind control. I understand in universe since the MC of the game's gonna be insanely weaker than the LoI protag, but I'm gonna miss that power trip the LoI powers gave me. Still though, mind control is mind control, and I'm on board as long as the game's got it.
 
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Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
The very basic outline is here and it has spoilers, obviously:
 

Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
Ah, damn. Not the biggest fan of LLTP's mind control. I understand in universe since the MC of the game's gonna be insanely weaker than the LoI protag, but I'm gonna miss that power trip the LoI powers gave me. Still though, mind control is mind control, and I'm on board as long as the game's got it.
To be clear, it won't be exactly the same. The MC in LoI, ironically, doesn't have any powers that deal with imagination itself. I meant to expand on that in this episode but you know how that turned out. The idea is the this game's MC is able to change a character's perception of reality in small ways at first, i.e., he's able to control their imagination. The game will essentially be a puzzle game where the MC talks to the characters and figures out their pressure points. That's the basic idea.


Btw, to avoid the thread from going off-topic, from now on anyone who's interested in the spin-off can follow the thread here:
https://f95zone.to/threads/progress-report-thread-for-lord-of-imagination-loose-ends.77976/
Right now, I've only created a very basic outline for the game. A few characters don't even have a personality yet.
 
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Modjoc00l

Member
Nov 10, 2020
204
271
Great news guys! After finding a very old duf file in my PC I have got Zel's character model and the other assets. This is my first attempt at creating a render with her.
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Besides that hair going through her hand and vanishing inside her boob, I would say pretty good and top notch quality :)
 
Nov 28, 2019
32
16
Great news guys! After finding a very old duf file in my PC I have got Zel's character model and the other assets. This is my first attempt at creating a render with her.
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Damn man, honestly that's not too bad! You said that was your first attempt? That's hard to believe. Figure out how to mess with the lighting to make her eyes glow a bit more like in the old version and it'd be virtually indistinguishable.
 

Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
Damn man, honestly that's not too bad! You said that was your first attempt? That's hard to believe. Figure out how to mess with the lighting to make her eyes glow a bit more like in the old version and it'd be virtually indistinguishable.
Thanks, I'm still to cover lighting and other intermediate/advanced topics but at this rate three months sounds like a generous enough deadline for getting good at Daz
 
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