VN Ren'Py Love & Jealousy [Act 3] [Professor Amethyst Games]

[funnythings3785]

Another thought on top of the previous Lacey pondering:


The MC is normal in many things, he is a bit of a recluse (due to Lacey) in college, but he can interact with most people pretty normally.

He is prior to Lacey, the typical inexperienced sexually person with all the basic normal views and understanding of sexual interaction. That is, he views sex between two people under a normal progression. Very wholesome and natural without kink, perversion or complexity.

How do you think a person of this normal position views all the things Lacey did? Would he not see multiple sex encounters of lax nature immoral and wrong? Would he not see multiple partners (threesomes) as wrong or an issue? Would he not see each progression of kink and perversion in the same light? Do not most people of normal nature see such the same?

I would say a lot of the dialogue through the acts affirm his character on this.

So now we have Lacey, who does every abnormal thing you can imagine to levels beyond scope.

How does he view Lacey? I think I remember a fair number of arguments where his comments simply on her behavior were... complete disgust and horror, not simply from the perspective of a "love interest" but that of a simple human being evaluating the actions of another. I think this is also affirmed by some of the reaction from the girls at learning about Lacey's behavior of the past as well as some of the "in front of" revelations they encountered.

So now... has Lacey ever come to terms with her actions on a level that confronts that specifically? Has she viewed herself specifically for that, recognized it, then sought understanding and redemption? Does she view her actual "actions" with the disgust she should as others have viewed it to come to an understanding of what she has done?

Maybe... but through many of her comments, she seems to indicate she has not and I think the Poker game (as well as many other comments here and there) seem to suggest she has not come to those terms. She doesn't seem to see that the actual "actions" she did were wrong, only the circumstances that caused or evolved from them.

If you thought a gangbang as an absolutely horrible action of depravity to not only yourself, but to those around you, would you even consider it as an option? And if so, would you proclaim it as "not a big deal, nothing that would cause you issue", is that the sign of someone who understands what they did? Is that someone who has healed or found growth?

Personally, I would say no, but then... what do I know.

 

[funnythings3785]

"Letting go?"

Maybe, but it would be ignoring the fact that she hasn't come to terms with what she has done. It wouldn't be letting go as much as it would be just accepting her as she is, without her having to deal with what she has done to not only him, but herself.

Not saying you're wrong, but she says repeatedly that sex is just meaningless sex... ...except when it's with the MC, of course. If it's meaningless, why should they care? Or is she lying to herself/us when she says that? (If so, and the sex is meaningful, then how could she not view what she did as betraying the MC?)

If it was meaningless, why did she have that argument then with them? I think DeviantFun brought that up, why make such a big deal if all of it was meaningless. She acted more like a girl hurt because they didn't do more for her after the experience, which then suggests she has some type of connection with her experiences.

Could be nothing, but then I never bought the whole BS of people claiming sex was meaningless. Sure, it may not have been enough to create a strong bond, but it always has meaning, even to some level and even if it is just in the moment. That is where the danger lies and why so many relationships form from people who have continued "meaningless" sex.

 

[apven333]

Why dev cant make hands and fingers look ...proper. Idk, it's not too hard to edit, i use SD myself every day...i mean, the game is great, the plot is amazing, one of the best here, the characters too...but the models would be good to edit, or is it just me who is so picky?

 

[Lady Lydia]

Another thought on top of the previous Lacey pondering:


The MC is normal in many things, he is a bit of a recluse (due to Lacey) in college, but he can interact with most people pretty normally.

He is prior to Lacey, the typical inexperienced sexually person with all the basic normal views and understanding of sexual interaction. That is, he views sex between two people under a normal progression. Very wholesome and natural without kink, perversion or complexity.

How do you think a person of this normal position views all the things Lacey did? Would he not see multiple sex encounters of lax nature immoral and wrong? Would he not see multiple partners (threesomes) as wrong or an issue? Would he not see each progression of kink and perversion in the same light? Do not most people of normal nature see such the same?

I would say a lot of the dialogue through the acts affirm his character on this.

So now we have Lacey, who does every abnormal thing you can imagine to levels beyond scope.

How does he view Lacey? I think I remember a fair number of arguments where his comments simply on her behavior were... complete disgust and horror, not simply from the perspective of a "love interest" but that of a simple human being evaluating the actions of another. I think this is also affirmed by some of the reaction from the girls at learning about Lacey's behavior of the past as well as some of the "in front of" revelations they encountered.

So now... has Lacey ever come to terms with her actions on a level that confronts that specifically? Has she viewed herself specifically for that, recognized it, then sought understanding and redemption? Does she view her actual "actions" with the disgust she should as others have viewed it to come to an understanding of what she has done?

Maybe... but through many of her comments, she seems to indicate she has not and I think the Poker game (as well as many other comments here and there) seem to suggest she has not come to those terms. She doesn't seem to see that the actual "actions" she did were wrong, only the circumstances that caused or evolved from them.

If you thought a gangbang as an absolutely horrible action of depravity to not only yourself, but to those around you, would you even consider it as an option? And if so, would you proclaim it as "not a big deal, nothing that would cause you issue", is that the sign of someone who understands what they did? Is that someone who has healed or found growth?

Personally, I would say no, but then... what do I know.

The problem here is your assumption that monogamy is the absolute relationship and anything else is invalid, their are a growing amount of polycules that exist, polyamorous relationships, what is 'normal' is very subjective, while yes the MC might have perceived things from that could be deemed 'normal' for most of us to begin with, it doesn't mean over the course of the story he isn't being changed by everything that is happening. Also you fail to take into consideration the effect of Lacey's influence over him, if he is told repeatedly that doing certain things are fine, in time he'll come to believe it.

Considering the power Lacey hold over him do you think he wouldn't in time come to accept her claims? That his resistance wouldn't end up eroding away? Ever heard the expression sink or swim? Well the MC had to learn to swim thru Lacey's currents, or sink, he has tried not to go along with the flow completely but he had no choice but to somewhat still follow the flow, as I said earlier its about the necessity of compromise in relationships, obviously he is compromising far more than Lacey, but that fit the character.

Going back to 'normality' did you know prostitution is common in High Schools in Japan? To us here it would be scandalous and horrible, but over there its fairly common for a girl to be paid for sexual activities in High School. Different norms entirely, what many consider here to be absolute norms, aren't by any mean absolute, similarly you had plenty of civilization where polygamy existed and did society crumble under the weight of depradation? No.

For individuals like the MC and Lacey that basically had to some degree self teach very likely much of what could be deemed the norms they had likely a very high degree of capacity for adaptation, in particular for the MC which grew to react to Lacey's issues perpetually. Likely the MC only learned 'normality' in College, while Lacey didn't even because she went crazy wild instead. If the MC only learned 'normality' as an adult its potentially far less ingrained than it would be in most of us. Which might be the source of much of Lacey's issues, her normal is likely what she developt in College, we know what happen in College, so it mean to her fucking around and such is normal, which is why she doesn't see the issue with having sexual activities with other people as problematic, because its her normality.

Sure likely after marrying the MC she had to learn to take some notion of what he deemed normality, but just like it would be quite particular for any of us Western folks to be marrying an Indian, well it doesn't mean she lost her sense of her normal, merely that she had to reign it in for the MC, and thru drugs, alcohol, personality issues, etc she is struggling with upholding that normal the MC imparted upon her, and she has been trying instead to teach him her normal.

 

[Lady Lydia]

Why dev cant make hands and fingers look ...proper. Idk, it's not too hard to edit, i use SD myself every day...i mean, the game is great, the plot is amazing, one of the best here, the characters too...but the models would be good to edit, or is it just me who is so picky?

Well considering the Dev is using AI CG images its very likely it come down to a choice, do they care more for proper looking hands and fingers, or the face? I'd say the face is the priority, you want that to be as much as humanly consistent as possible, the digits are of secondary concerns, Those AI aren't doing miracles yet, properly prompting them is Hell. Also I'll be frank I think most of us aren't looking really all that hard at the hands.

 

[radical686]

So you are saying anger can not drive a person to push an action they did not initially intend or want?

Sigh. A statement that says nothing. You give all of the agency to the women, and act like the MC in this case has no power. I guess it makes it easier for you to hate Lacey for whatever reason.

I personally found what she DID on Girl's day to be far more problematic than what she SAID at the poker game.

That said, it's apparent you're arguing for the sake of arguing. So, I'm gonna ignore you from now on.

 

[radical686]

I'm confused by this. On my playthrough, the reader watched the MC pause over the attachment in the email then right-click and delete without opening it. Unless you're saying that what we saw in that part of the story didn't really happen then I don't understand what you said. And if that is the case, then I no longer have any idea what happened in any part of the story because I now have to question whether anything the reader saw truly happened. That merry-go-round doesn't stop.

I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying if that's how the dev is writing the story then how can the reader believe anything he wrote? The hallucinations at the end of Act 3 are pretty clearly shown to be hallucinations so I don't question that part. I do wonder what triggered them to occur at that moment, though; I missed the trigger unless this was just a cumulative thing that drove him to break(?)

Good question.

I think the earlier dissociative episode where he ended up in the bad part of town was a foreshadowing. Establishing how he percieves things when he has a dissociative episode. He didn't remember going to the bad part of town, and he didn't break out of the dissociative episode until he got back to the park . . . a familiar and safe location for him mentally. The Dev showed us what he did even tho he had no recollection of his actions.

The girls gave us a clue what was likely in the video with the conversation with Jeanette. I'm guessing it looked like she had an orgasmic or euphoric expression on her face, which could have/ IMHO would have triggered him--based mostly on how he's rationalized himself as inadequate whenever he sees her enjoying herself in ways he could not provide her. Furthermore, every time there has been a video or an image where the MC was not able to "choose" whether to view the image or video, the MC has opened it up and/or watched it . . . every time.

I think the Dev wrote the last scene showing only what his dissasociative personality remembers. Notice that we never saw how Lacey was actually dressed until after he left (And Mia was with her).

I agree with you that dissociative episodes are usually triggered, and there did not appear to be a trigger leading up to his dissociative episode. You and I agree on that as well. They tend not to happen without a trigger. Which is why I came up with the theory that he actually watched the video, but thinks he deleted it. But, that memory is actually part of the dissociative episode.

If I'm right, the Dev will show us what really happened in Act 4. It would be a clever plot twist.

Does that mean it happened that way? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm guessing and extrapolating based on what I believe fits a dissociative episode. That said, the Dev could write something completely different, and I may be entirely wrong. If I am wrong, it would be nice for the Dev to show us or explain what did cause the dissociative episode.

 

[Lady Lydia]

Good question.

I think the earlier disassociative (DA) break where he ended up in the bad part of town was a foreshadowing. Establishing how he percieves things when he has a DA break. He didn't remember going to the bad part of town, and he didn't break out of the DA break until he got back to the park . . . a familiar and safe location for him mentally. The Dev showed us what he did even tho he had no recollection of his actions.

The girls gave us a clue what was likely in the video with the conversation with Jeanette. I'm guessing it looked like she had an orgasmic or euphoric expression on her face, which could have/ IMHO would have triggered him--based mostly on how he's rationalized himself as inadequate whenever he sees her enjoying herself in ways he could not provide her. Furthermore, every time there has been a video or an image where the MC was not able to "choose" whether to view the image or video, the MC has opened it up and/or watched it . . . every time.

I think the Dev wrote the last scene showing only what his dissasociative personality remembers. Notice that we never saw how Lacey was actually dressed until after he left (And Mia was with her).

I agree with you that DA breaks are usually triggered, and there did not appear to be a trigger leading up to his DA break. You and I agree on that as well. They tend not to happen without a trigger. Which is why I came up with the theory that he actually watched the video, but thinks he deleted it. But, that memory is actually part of the DA break.

If I'm right, the Dev will show us what really happened in Act 4. It would be a clever plot twist.

Does that mean it happened that way? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm guessing and extrapolating based on what I believe fits a DA break. That said, the Dev could write something completely different, and I may be entirely wrong. If I am wrong, it would be nice for the Dev to show us or explain what did cause the DA break.

Huh... the way I remember things didn't Lacey and Mia came in after the MC was gone and Lacey figured he wasn't around and got worried? I mean the MC literally saw the hallucination, than gathered his stuff and fucked off, if Lacey & Mia had been there wouldn't one of them have came in physical contact and figuring he was out of it and snap him out?

I mean would the BDSM session have been bad enough to cause him a mental breakdown watching the video? After everything else? I mean sure it sounded like it was cringe, rather than really super sexy, admittedly still of questionable enough nature to cause the girls to shy out of wanting the MC to see it. Did Lacey make a ahegao face and that was bad enough for him to breakdown? After the entire Vegas vacation and a few therapy sessions you'd expect if he had to snap it would have happened in Vegas after the girl's day, not a while later after getting therapy a few times.

 

[JarrenBlake]

Just finished all three acts and I really enjoyed the story of this game. Great work! I see a number of really long posts here, critical of the characters and actions. Shows that the story is hitting home. I enjoyed the main couple, their dynamic and dysfunction are really well realized. Keep up the great work.

 

[Lady Lydia]

I think everyone playing this game really need to play another game by the Prof, On the Mountain Top, that game has a character with a co-dependency issue, along with other issues, plus the MC has issues, plus many of the side characters have issues, and I feel this game doesn't really convey the reality of mental issues as good as OtMT does, it does a far better job explaining things, trying to impart upon the players the reality of those issues.

Which I'll say make it again perplexing, the quality of the characterization for that game is so much better than this one, the narrative feels like it flows more naturally, its incredible the degree of difference between this game and that game, which is I feel something Augusta similarly does much better than this game.

I feel this game does drama by the ton and let the drama override the characterization and narrative, and when it come to the psychological aspects of the characters it just drum you with its issues. OtMP take some similar mental issues and make them feel more real, their is drama but drama doesn't drive the characterization and narrative, it flows from the characters and narrative.

Its a shame the Prof put it on the back burner because they were getting too stressed and the amount of efforts and stress required to make this and Augusta being far lesser caused it to be benched, a real shame because I feel that story is likely far more interesting than this one.

 

[AL.d]

The problem here is your assumption that monogamy is the absolute relationship and anything else is invalid, their are a growing amount of polycules that exist, polyamorous relationships, what is 'normal' is very subjective, while yes the MC might have perceived things from that could be deemed 'normal' for most of us to begin with, it doesn't mean over the course of the story he isn't being changed by everything that is happening. Also you fail to take into consideration the effect of Lacey's influence over him, if he is told repeatedly that doing certain things are fine, in time he'll come to believe it.

Considering the power Lacey hold over him do you think he wouldn't in time come to accept her claims? That his resistance wouldn't end up eroding away? Ever heard the expression sink or swim? Well the MC had to learn to swim thru Lacey's currents, or sink, he has tried not to go along with the flow completely but he had no choice but to somewhat still follow the flow, as I said earlier its about the necessity of compromise in relationships, obviously he is compromising far more than Lacey, but that fit the character.

Going back to 'normality' did you know prostitution is common in High Schools in Japan? To us here it would be scandalous and horrible, but over there its fairly common for a girl to be paid for sexual activities in High School. Different norms entirely, what many consider here to be absolute norms, aren't by any mean absolute, similarly you had plenty of civilization where polygamy existed and did society crumble under the weight of depradation? No.

For individuals like the MC and Lacey that basically had to some degree self teach very likely much of what could be deemed the norms they had likely a very high degree of capacity for adaptation, in particular for the MC which grew to react to Lacey's issues perpetually. Likely the MC only learned 'normality' in College, while Lacey didn't even because she went crazy wild instead. If the MC only learned 'normality' as an adult its potentially far less ingrained than it would be in most of us. Which might be the source of much of Lacey's issues, her normal is likely what she developt in College, we know what happen in College, so it mean to her fucking around and such is normal, which is why she doesn't see the issue with having sexual activities with other people as problematic, because its her normality.

Sure likely after marrying the MC she had to learn to take some notion of what he deemed normality, but just like it would be quite particular for any of us Western folks to be marrying an Indian, well it doesn't mean she lost her sense of her normal, merely that she had to reign it in for the MC, and thru drugs, alcohol, personality issues, etc she is struggling with upholding that normal the MC imparted upon her, and she has been trying instead to teach him her normal.

The post you replied isn't referring to what any of us might think of monogamy and polygamy, which is irrelevant. It is referring to MC's well documented relationship values in the game. His position. That it might align with what most of us consider normal, is irrelevant in the context of the game. His relationship views are diametrically opposed to Lacey's. If that wasn't the case, there would be no need to hatch an elaborate plan to "reprogram" him. And by the way, relationship values are imprinted far earlier than college. The fact he was a virgin, didn't mean he didn't have them. Same applies for Lacey, her approach to sexuality and relationships has its roots far earlier and the cause is obvious, college was just the catalyst.

I think your post minimizes what's happening to MC in a disturbing way, while the game is very clear in portraying how ugly it is in all its glory. There is no "necessary relationship compromise" happening here. No "benevolent corruption", opening his horizons to the beautiful world of fucking around, in a relationship between equal parties. It's toxic and abusive manipulation (and often outright forced), of a person who literally can't say no to anything. His relationship views are so opposed to what is happening to him, that this forced re-alignment by his dear wife, is causing him frequent mental breakdowns. This has been shown multiple times in the game. It's blatant abuse, plain and simple.

 

[funnythings3785]

The problem here is your assumption that monogamy is the absolute relationship and anything else is invalid, their are a growing amount of polycules that exist, polyamorous relationships, what is 'normal' is very subjective, while yes the MC might have perceived things from that could be deemed 'normal' for most of us to begin with, it doesn't mean over the course of the story he isn't being changed by everything that is happening. Also you fail to take into consideration the effect of Lacey's influence over him, if he is told repeatedly that doing certain things are fine, in time he'll come to believe it.

Considering the power Lacey hold over him do you think he wouldn't in time come to accept her claims? That his resistance wouldn't end up eroding away? Ever heard the expression sink or swim? Well the MC had to learn to swim thru Lacey's currents, or sink, he has tried not to go along with the flow completely but he had no choice but to somewhat still follow the flow, as I said earlier its about the necessity of compromise in relationships, obviously he is compromising far more than Lacey, but that fit the character.

Going back to 'normality' did you know prostitution is common in High Schools in Japan? To us here it would be scandalous and horrible, but over there its fairly common for a girl to be paid for sexual activities in High School. Different norms entirely, what many consider here to be absolute norms, aren't by any mean absolute, similarly you had plenty of civilization where polygamy existed and did society crumble under the weight of depradation? No.

For individuals like the MC and Lacey that basically had to some degree self teach very likely much of what could be deemed the norms they had likely a very high degree of capacity for adaptation, in particular for the MC which grew to react to Lacey's issues perpetually. Likely the MC only learned 'normality' in College, while Lacey didn't even because she went crazy wild instead. If the MC only learned 'normality' as an adult its potentially far less ingrained than it would be in most of us. Which might be the source of much of Lacey's issues, her normal is likely what she developt in College, we know what happen in College, so it mean to her fucking around and such is normal, which is why she doesn't see the issue with having sexual activities with other people as problematic, because its her normality.

Sure likely after marrying the MC she had to learn to take some notion of what he deemed normality, but just like it would be quite particular for any of us Western folks to be marrying an Indian, well it doesn't mean she lost her sense of her normal, merely that she had to reign it in for the MC, and thru drugs, alcohol, personality issues, etc she is struggling with upholding that normal the MC imparted upon her, and she has been trying instead to teach him her normal.

I think it is reasonable to assume a base monogamy normality for the world that was established. I also think that it is safe to assume this based on the MCs general comments about Laceys behavior both in college and how she acts around other men with her husband.

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to imply less common relationship concepts in this. Maybe the professor had some abnormal concept in mind for the sexual morality of society in that world, but it was never established as such, and as I said the MCs character hasn't been one to be open to this concept without Lacey pushing him, so as I said, I think it is safe to assume that normal concept at least with him specifically.

 

[funnythings3785]

Sigh. A statement that says nothing. You give all of the agency to the women, and act like the MC in this case has no power. I guess it makes it easier for you to hate Lacey for whatever reason.

I personally found what she DID on Girl's day to be far more problematic than what she SAID at the poker game.

That said, it's apparent you're arguing for the sake of arguing. So, I'm gonna ignore you from now on.

I find both issues problematic.

You seem to be dismissing all the mental aspects of the MC and his issues with Lacey. It isn't an excuse, but he is not of a normal mental state and Lacey knows that.

As I said, the concept of someone getting so angry, they say or do things that they do not initially mean or intend isn't some secret and I think it is has been well established with the MC concerning this.

I think absolving Lacey in this issue is honestly, the very thing a "manipulator" would make a case for in such a situation (This is not directed at you btw, Lacey manipulates him this way). Lacey put him in this situation, begged him for it, even used "quid pro quo" to try and force it to happen. She set up the situation knowing this was a problem with him and when it got to the point she knew would anger him, she allowed him to play it out as she knew he would. Yes, he is responsible... but keep in mind the circumstances here.

We also know she did the same with Damian, pushed him, manipulated him for it to go as far as he allowed it. She does this rather constantly (one of the problems with her concerning the MC). Even in the end, when the MC tried to stop it, she ignored him and did it anyway... using various weak excuses as to why she didn't listen to him and manipulated that conversation as well. She is still the abuser here in many ways.

As I said, it is not uncommon for someone to get so angry in such a situation that they let the anger and hate drive them to tell someone to do something that they don't want them to do because they are feeding on the fact that the person "wants" to do those things (and thinks they should know better) regardless of the damage it would have on them.

I have seen people say very similar things numerous times in varied situations of conflict like this. It doesn't absolve the person who gets angry, it merely reasons to an extent why they would and shows that in such situations, there is some responsibility with both parties. I think it would be unreasonable to dismiss Lacey's responsibility in this issue.

Lastly, I am not arguing to argue, we simply have a point of major disagreement. Nothing wrong with that, and if you don't want to discuss it to the detail that is required to at least come to an understanding between our opposing views, that is fine, but don't dismiss my points as invalid simply because you don't want to deal with the issues I bring up with the discussion.

 

[Pugthulhu]

So does Lacey understand that having sex with numerous people, gang bangs, etc... is bad? She may, I haven't looked into the dialogue to verify, but does she truly see her "actions" of being a sex bucket as an element of her wrong doing in a part of her "healing" growth? Was that covered in her "forgiving" herself? Or was it spent on accusing those who she chose to have sex with for not "caring" for her?

What did Lacey truly come to terms with in her college day actions (and the rest of her actions after that). Did she seriously atone to find peace with herself for her obvious bad actions of choosing to Whore herself to other men?

Or did she simply absolve herself of her actions through other means that did not accept responsibility?

I am honestly asking this of those who know the script really well. Do you actually see "self" improvement, only to Lacey in that? Does she truly come to terms with what she did as it concerns herself?

I honestly don't remember those specifics.

Can you elaborate on this?
If you are saying that Lacey being promiscuous is "bad" because with her history of abuse it could damage her further I can agree.

If you are saying that the act of a woman being promiscuous is "bad" I do not agree.

 

[funnythings3785]

Can you elaborate on this?
If you are saying that Lacey being promiscuous is "bad" because with her history of abuse it could damage her further I can agree.

If you are saying that the act of a woman being promiscuous is "bad" I do not agree.

Both. What benefit does the activities she had (outside of the drugs) produce for her? How do they grow her as a person? How do those acts generally reflect on her as it concerns others? Do gangbangs empower her? Does having lots of sex with random guys provide any benefit outside of sexual satisfaction? Look at how she complains about how the exes didn't pay her much respect and attention? Look how Will and Stephen went on about her "past", did Lacey find that positive and empowering or was she embarrassed, degraded, ashamed?

Do you think most men who wanted a serious relationship and a wife would view her past promiscuity with a positive view?

Look how most of the girls reacted to learning about Lacey's past? Was it approval? Was it positive? Was it respect?

Look how it has caused issues with the MC? Did he view her actions with any positive means?

So if her actions in such do not benefit her, do not produce anything of value outside of the physical satisfaction, how is it not bad when you consider all the negatives it produces from those actions?

 

[duckydoodoo]

So if her actions in such do not benefit her, do not produce anything of value outside of the physical satisfaction, how is it not bad when you consider all the negatives it produces from those actions?

i think the question was not about Lacey's life experience personally. more along the lines for real actual women. if their sexual behavior is as promiscuous as mens its not inherently bad. when a man betrays his wife, ruins his marriage and disrupts his childrens lives, its bad. if a man banged some strippers and hookers before meeting his wife and she is okay with it, its not bad. so it shouldnt be bad for a woman to do the same.. i think thats what the implications of promiscutity being not bad was about.

i could be wrong.

but yes, in the case of Lacey and MC, not Lacey and the rest of the world, but her relationship with MC, her promiscuity was bad. we know this factually from her days in the room, that it was harmful to her specifically, outside of MC or their relationship. not just between them. but between her and her ex boyfriends.

which is strange how no one points to those scenes and says, there is the full proof she had boy friends in college. and no one asking, where did those portraits of them come from, why does she have pictures of her ex bf/abusers in the first place. like all the dissection into everyone doing what they have been since act 1, an extra Mia character and whether or not kissing anna should be -good guy points when anna is completely green lit as long as MC doesnt go round talking bout it without Lacey specifically asking as per her rules. like there should be essays about the portraits, the self recrimination and arguing. there is no way anyone who heard any of that can believe she wasnt in a relationship before marrying MC, and that she was never coming back to him til she took the phone call from anna.(okay maybe someone did bring it up a lil but i havent seen in real convo on it but expected to)

 

[C2H5OH + H2O]

Everything pleasant in this world is either harmful, immoral, or leads to obesity.

 

[funnythings3785]

i think the question was not about Lacey's life experience personally. more along the lines for real actual women. if their sexual behavior is as promiscuous as mens its not inherently bad. when a man betrays his wife, ruins his marriage and disrupts his childrens lives, its bad. if a man banged some strippers and hookers before meeting his wife and she is okay with it, its not bad. so it shouldnt be bad for a woman to do the same.. i think thats what the implications of promiscutity being not bad was about.

i could be wrong.

but yes, in the case of Lacey and MC, not Lacey and the rest of the world, but her relationship with MC, her promiscuity was bad. we know this factually from her days in the room, that it was harmful to her specifically, outside of MC or their relationship. not just between them. but between her and her ex boyfriends.

which is strange how no one points to those scenes and says, there is the full proof she had boy friends in college. and no one asking, where did those portraits of them come from, why does she have pictures of her ex bf/abusers in the first place. like all the dissection into everyone doing what they have been since act 1, an extra Mia character and whether or not kissing anna should be -good guy points when anna is completely green lit as long as MC doesnt go round talking bout it without Lacey specifically asking as per her rules. like there should be essays about the portraits, the self recrimination and arguing. there is no way anyone who heard any of that can believe she wasnt in a relationship before marrying MC, and that she was never coming back to him til she took the phone call from anna.(okay maybe someone did bring it up a lil but i havent seen in real convo on it but expected to)

My personal opinion outside of the story on sexual morality is irrelevant and I think would derail the discussion away from the focus.

The story specifically has already established the points I was making.

It isn't just from the MCs perspective, literally most everyone (outside of most of the people who want to bang her) sees those actions as lesser value, in a negative light. Heck, listen to Will in how he treats his girlfriend, how Barty and them refer to the women they WANT to act like that, it isn't respect, it isn't an "agreement" that this is something good empowering the woman, they view the women as dirt, trash, cum dumpsters for their pleasure.

Like I said, other than those directly seeking some "physical" benefit in the story, nobody really approves or praises that behavior and as I mentioned, few of them that would partake in such even think that as well.

 

[funnythings3785]

Everything pleasant in this world is either harmful, immoral, or leads to obesity.

Then there is that point you get to where you realize that all those things weren't all that "pleasant" in the first place, they were just cheap shallow thrills.

 

[Pugthulhu]

Both. What benefit does the activities she had (outside of the drugs) produce for her? How do they grow her as a person? How do those acts generally reflect on her as it concerns others? Do gangbangs empower her? Does having lots of sex with random guys provide any benefit outside of sexual satisfaction? Look at how she complains about how the exes didn't pay her much respect and attention? Look how Will and Stephen went on about her "past", did Lacey find that positive and empowering or was she embarrassed, degraded, ashamed?

Do you think most men who wanted a serious relationship and a wife would view her past promiscuity with a positive view?

Look how most of the girls reacted to learning about Lacey's past? Was it approval? Was it positive? Was it respect?

Look how it has caused issues with the MC? Did he view her actions with any positive means?

So if her actions in such do not benefit her, do not produce anything of value outside of the physical satisfaction, how is it not bad when you consider all the negatives it produces from those actions?

I think you justifying your opinion by saying that it's the same as Will and Stephen pretty much says everything.