Adhdclassic

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Mar 10, 2024
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Ok... Vivian... You guys will hate me ...but .... I do not see her first visit as a willing partner with Christian to humiliate hutch. I think she is a Loving wife that would do anything to help her husband. Look at her facial expressions... She is not happy about it ! Also... at that time she did not think She would get caught. So out of site out of mind theory. This also go back to my earlier comment on Who offered sex. Did Vivian tell Christian I'll give you what you want just leave my husband alone. Or, Did Christian say to Vivian ... If you want to save your Husband drop you panties.
I agree I don't see her trying to humiliate him either, but she knew he would feel humiliated and embarrassed that his wife went to talk to his boss so he get to keep his job. That's why she didn't tell him. As far as sex in the backyard I think it was a piece from both of them. She offered I would do anything his response really take off your panties I can't do that I am married and my husband is right there. You said anything plus we both know he is in there thinking about what to write on that paper. She removes her panties he tells her to bend over to get a closer look. Then enters her that's why she had that slightly pissed face. Then we saw the rest.
 

Dealbreaker

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May 12, 2024
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I think it's wonderful that we have different views here which are robustly articulated.
That said, I think behind the seemingly academic distinctions of intended or not intended acts there is the actual battle going on about the character of the wife: does she want to help, is she just well meaning? How is her inner relationship to her husband? is she a fundamentally positive figure which is caught up in manipulation and misfortune or is she absolutely flawed? Is she capable of willingly hurting somebody and disrespecting somebody? That's why this is important. And I sense an unwillingness to paint her in grey colours so to speak. I see her not driven by an aim to hurt but by ego, panic, interest, hubris, sense of self-importance and, yes, an underlying growing contempt against her husband. This is as always mixed with pity, trying to be helpful, protectiveness for her family etc. but that doesn't change that.
Loving includes understanding. If you cannot see how these actions will inevitably hurt your husband and you can't even apologize afterwards you don't love him or you are stupid.
 

Adhdclassic

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Mar 10, 2024
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In a real world sense I think Vivian was getting bored in her mundane life empty nest syndrome didn't help. Christian offers excitement and the forbidden. Where Hutch offers her security and unconditional love. Sad to say that is a real world issue especially with long marriages.
 

TheDuke9999

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Jan 3, 2022
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I'm assuming we are all single and lonely but maybe a few guys in this forum have a wife they actually care about.. quick question.. can i walk in your house, hug your wife/gf then proceed to kiss her on the lips while you just stand there and watch... can I? If so please let me know and I will be right over.. yes or no?
 

TonyMurray

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Apr 8, 2024
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If you cannot see how these actions will inevitably hurt your husband and you can't even apologize afterwards you don't love him or you are stupid.
Hard disagree. It would be right to apologise and have everything in the open, but not doing it doesn't mean an absence of love or a presence of stupidity. Again, Vivian is trying to protect Hutch. You might not think it's the right way to do it, you might not think it's possible to do it, but she shows that it's her mindset:
"He can never know. He doesn't deserve to carry that pain. It would destroy him."
"I have to carry it for both of us... I have to!"

I'm assuming we are all single and lonely but maybe a few guys in this forum have a wife they actually care about.. quick question.. can i walk in your house, hug your wife/gf then proceed to kiss her on the lips while you just stand there and watch... can I? If so please let me know and I will be right over.. yes or no?
Married (and happily so) for 15 years, and of course you can't. But that has no bearing here, because I'm not Hutch and Hutch is not me.
 
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Dealbreaker

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I just don't buy into the argument that by doing something, where you know that hurting someone will likely be a by product, you are therefore intentionally hurting them.
Just for the record and not to prolongue the debate: If any justice system would be based on this principle, everything would break down. Instead there you have a principle of intent which means knowing and doing equals responsibility.
And imagine how you would educate children based on that principle? How would this offer a child clear ethical guidance and responsibility?
 

Sparta VI

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May 22, 2024
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I'm assuming we are all single and lonely but maybe a few guys in this forum have a wife they actually care about.. quick question.. can i walk in your house, hug your wife/gf then proceed to kiss her on the lips while you just stand there and watch... can I? If so please let me know and I will be right over.. yes or no?
Wait, if anything, we have to come to your house ;)
 
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Dealbreaker

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May 12, 2024
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Hard disagree.
Mature love has to acknowledge and to consider the will and the perspective and the interest of the person you claim you are loving. It is interactional, not solipsistic. Otherwise you are loving your own feeling and not this real person in front of you with his own subjectivity. You can't assume superiority and act over him which she clearly does. This is not just a "mistake" but it's not the kind of love I would wish for in a long term relationship.
 

Adhdclassic

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Mar 10, 2024
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I'm assuming we are all single and lonely but maybe a few guys in this forum have a wife they actually care about.. quick question.. can i walk in your house, hug your wife/gf then proceed to kiss her on the lips while you just stand there and watch... can I? If so please let me know and I will be right over.. yes or no?
Hahaha. Married for 25 years any man feeling that brave I would let them know I have a shovel very big backyard 3 grown mama boys 3 elderly neighbors I have known since my children have been born. No one saw you enter my house.:devilish: I have said this in other threads I don't know how men allow someone else to play in their toy box.
 

TonyMurray

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Apr 8, 2024
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Just for the record and not to prolongue the debate: If any justice system would be based on this principle, everything would break down. Instead there you have a principle of intent which means knowing and doing equals responsibility.
And imagine how you would educate children based on that principle? How would this offer a child clear ethical guidance and responsibility?
Well, we're not litigating this in a court of law (thankfully)... This is a case of taking things too far to try to make a point - however, if you want to go to legal terminology, I think it would be a case of acting purposely versus acting recklessly. In acting purposely, Vivian would be fucking Christian with the knowledge that it would hurt Hutch, and that is the objective she is trying to achieve. In acting recklessly, Vivian would be fucking Christian knowing that there was a risk of Hutch finding out and being hurt by it, but she disregarded that risk. There is a difference, and that is precisely what I have been trying to say.

(Caveat: not a lawyer, but knows Google.)
 

Luc77

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Jul 15, 2022
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English is not my language, and I have trouble determining the gender of the interlocutors here (my language is highly gendered, english - completly not)
Adhdclassic - are you woman ? :) Sparta158 ??

I am extremely curious about the interpretation of Vivian's character in the eyes of a woman
 

Adhdclassic

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Mar 10, 2024
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English is not my language, and I have trouble determining the gender of the interlocutors here (my language is highly gendered, english - completly not)
Adhdclassic - are you woman ? :)

I am extremely curious about the interpretation of Vivian's character in the eyes of a woman
Nah guy
 
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Sparta VI

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May 22, 2024
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English is not my language, and I have trouble determining the gender of the interlocutors here (my language is highly gendered, english - completly not)
Adhdclassic - are you woman ? :) Sparta158 ??

I am extremely curious about the interpretation of Vivian's character in the eyes of a woman
No sorry I have 2 pine cones between my legs, but I spoke to my wife about the story after it was published.
English is not my first language either.
 

Luc77

Active Member
Jul 15, 2022
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Are there any women here? :ROFLMAO:

Or, as usual, guys talk about how women will behave in emotional/sexual situations ?:) and we pretend to be smart, assuming we know what drives them ?
Times are changing - women like porn, but it's targeted at them
Currently, a whole branch of fantasy has emerged - womantasy
about which you can say - why kill someone if you can fuck him

When I saw what my wife was reading, I blushed. This was some real porn.
 

Sparta VI

Member
May 22, 2024
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My wife thought the whole thing was stupid. We both agreed when she walked into the office she unknowingly already damaged her marriage.
Okay, we skipped a few little things. After the first week we agreed that Christian had blackmailed Vivian outside in the garden because he had received the information from ? that Sawyer is not the father of Hutch.
3 weeks, 140 pages and many great comments and interpretations later, I'm not sure anymore.
 
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Dealbreaker

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May 12, 2024
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There is a difference, and that is precisely what I have been trying to say.
In civil law there would be no difference, she would have to pay damages anyway. She would be responsible for cause and effect and that is the point. And I deliberately mentioned children who should know that the can't only have good intentions but have to look at the consequences.

(And I'm a guy of course)
 
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